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Applying facts and logic in the asylum seeker issue

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Sunday, 8 July 2012 15:01 by Ad astra
The issue of asylum seekers arriving on our shores in boats has been highly politicized, so much so that the political players have locked themselves into positions from which they cannot or will not retreat.

The Pacific Solution
We all know the history. It began in 2001 with John Howard’s ‘Pacific Solution’ that included detention and processing of boat arrivals on Nauru and Manus Island, Temporary Protection Visas that precluded the bringing out of the families of those who had arrived, and ‘turning the boats around’, something that was done on a few occasions, in some instances, such as in the case of Siev X, with the tragic loss of 353 lives.

Seventy per cent of asylum seekers sent to Nauru and Manus Island were found to be genuine; 30 percent were sent home. Forty three per cent were resettled in Australia; the remainder was settled in other countries, mostly New Zealand. While the Pacific Solution was in place there were fewer arrivals by boat.

In response to the anguish of those who were kept in Nauru for long periods, many of whom suffered severe mental health problems, the number of families separated for long periods under the TPV system, and the fact that 70 percent ended up here or in NZ anyway, the Rudd Government was persuaded to close Nauru, abandon TPVs, and on advice from naval authorities, refrain from turning boats around, as this was considered unsafe as it put asylum seekers and service personnel at unnecessary risk. The number of boat arrivals increased, and is still high.

Alternative proposals
The Gillard Government sought a collaborative regional approach to curb boat arrivals that was to involve neighbouring countries, with regional processing of refugees, first proposing East Timor as a venue, and more recently Malaysia.

The Coalition has had just one policy: offshore processing via Howard’s Pacific Solution, a policy they insist worked then and will work now. Q.E.D.

The Greens oppose offshore processing and want everyone processed here in Australia.

How big a refugee problem do we have?
Let’s now examine briefly the extent of the problem. In his 18 June article in the SMH National Times: Abbott’s evil policy work, Malcolm Fraser gives this contemporary data: “In 2010-11, 4730 asylum seekers arrived by boat. During the same period, more than 13 million people crossed our borders and arrived in Australia; 4730 out of 13.9 million is not a ''system vulnerable to abuse''.

This is hardly an ‘invasion’, as some like to represent it. In fact, compared with many European nations who have many thousands arriving each month, our ‘problem’ is quite minor. But in the minds of the electorate, it constitutes a major assault on our borders, a view perpetuated by the Opposition, which makes political capital from every new boat arrival.

It was John Howard in 2001 who created this extraordinary fear of ‘irregular boat arrivals’ with his post-Tampa and ‘kid’s overboard’ vow: “We will decide who come to this country and the circumstances in which they come”, an utterance that had resulted in boat people being reviled. They were stigmatized with terms such as ‘illegals’, and ‘cashed up queue jumpers’, and of course, as many were of Middle Eastern origin and Muslim, the stigma was accentuated.

Given that background, let’s analyze the contemporary issues.

‘Stop the boats’
There seems to be no one who does not want to stop people getting on fishing boats in Indonesia to traverse the treacherous waters between there and Christmas Island. Everyone says they want the boat traffic to stop.


The Government and the Coalition believe a deterrent is needed to stop asylum seekers boarding boats bound for Christmas Island. They disagree on what constitutes an effective one. More of that later.

The Greens’ solution
The Greens seem to believe that if Australia increased its intake, say to 20,000 per annum, and was more welcoming to asylum seekers, they would not get on leaky boats. They have never explained how increasing the annual intake from the present 13,500 to 20,000 (and remember the Coalition offered to do this over three years) would stop those not within the intake from coming on boats anyway.

We know there are countless asylum seekers, indeed millions around the world, and in neighbouring countries, several hundred thousand. The Jakarta Post reports that: “The number of asylum seekers entering Indonesia has drastically increased by 800 per cent,” but is still comparatively small compared with Pakistan, which received 1 million refugees; Iran 800,000; Thailand 100,000; and Malaysia 98,000.

There is no way that Australia could possibly take all who seek asylum, either logistically or politically. There must be a quota, and that means that some are selected, while others are not. What do those not selected then do? Wait patiently for their turn? Some will because they have no resources to do otherwise. But will those who do have money wait? Unlikely. Why would they wait their turn if money could short circuit the wait and get them to Australia quickly? Many of those arriving in recent times have purchased a package deal from criminal gangs of people smugglers whereby they receive a cheap airfare to Malaysia or Indonesia, and a place on a boat for around $10,000. Will they wait their turn, which might take years? No, they will buy their way onto a people smuggler’s boat. The well off always have an advantage over those less well off.

Only this week Sarah Hanson-Young visited Indonesia to seek a ‘solution’, and on AM reported this as follows: “Eighteen months ago when Australia took more people from Indonesia, more people than they usually do, it made a dramatic difference to the numbers of people boarding boats. The numbers dropped.” This assertion was not accompanied by any data. How many is ‘more people’; how much is ‘dramatic’. She added little, other than a few platitudes.

Christine Milne has now upped the ante by advocating an increase in the annual intake to 25,000 to ‘solve’ the boat arrivals problem, but as that is a very tiny fraction of those seeking asylum from Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand and other countries, how does that help the hundreds of thousands left behind?

If Australia were to increase its intake ten or twenty or thirty fold, and guaranteed processing would be complete in a few weeks, there would be much less inclination for people to pay people smugglers large sums of money and take the inordinate risk of travelling on unsafe boats. Clearly though that intake would be politically unacceptable and a logistic nightmare.

Moreover, given that not all of those seeking asylum could come at once, how would their processing and acceptance be managed. Would the most deserving, those who had suffered most and waited longest, those escaping the most awful persecution, even if they had no resources or money, be given preference? That would seem to be the most just way. If that were so, what would the less deserving, and the most recent arrivals in Indonesia, but who have resources and cash, do? Get on boats, of course.

I invite any Greens supporter to tell us precisely how enlarging our intake to the extent suggested, and opening our arms in welcome, will stop people getting on boats when there are so many more who desperately want to come to our country than we are prepared to take. And while you are at it, tell us how those accepted in our quota for asylum will get here, if not on leaky boats. Will we fly them here at our expense, or provide safe sea transport?

The Greens never give us such practical detail; all we get is high sounding idealism, embellished with sad stories of how desperate many asylum seekers are and what awful conditions have forced them from their homes. It’s fine to have ideals and compassion; we all have them. But let’s hear the practicalities. Without them, it’s just idle talk.

Mike Carlton had this to say in 7 July piece in the SMH: “…the Greens's policy of an open door and onshore processing would have the people smugglers thinking all their Eid al-Fitrs had come at once. There would be many, many more boats, and many more of them lost, with many more men women and children drowned.

“And for those tens of thousands that do arrive safely by sea, how exactly would the Greens deal with them? You can't just dump them all in Cabramatta, as we did with the Vietnamese 40 years ago. The cost of housing, health and education would be humungous and, like it or not, the average taxpayer simply would not cop it.”


While leaving the Greens to tell us how they will achieve their aims, what of the offshore processing that both Government and Opposition espouse.

The Opposition’s solution
The Opposition insists that as the Pacific Solution ‘worked’ in 2001, it will ‘work’ now. This contention conveniently ignores the changed circumstances eleven years later, in 2012. Apart from ‘push factors’ being greater than they were in 2001, the salient difference now is that people smugglers know full well that seventy percent of those processed on Nauru or Manus Island ended up where they wanted to be – here or in NZ. They can easily market their boat trade by giving that seventy percent guarantee, and virtually a hundred per cent guarantee to anyone who ends up being classed as a ‘genuine refugee’. That’s a pretty marketable offer. But the Opposition persists with its ‘it worked then and will work now’ mantra, although it is as aware of these facts as are the people smugglers.

Andrew Metcalfe and Immigration Department officers insist that the Pacific Solution will NOT work now because the people smugglers know what happened last time. Tony Abbott, Scott Morrison and Coalition members know that, but it makes not the slightest impact on their sloganeering because they have no interest in the truth, only in what they can persuade the electorate to believe.

Moreover, they ignore the terrible mental trauma suffered by those incarcerated on Nauru and Manus Island, often for years. Despair, depression, and other mental illness afflicted many, the scars of which persist. Indeed, many believed that this ‘punishment’ was a deliberate Coalition ploy, a central part of the deterrent value of the Pacific Solution.

Let’s look now at another element of the Opposition’s asylum policy – Temporary Protection Visas. This was another ‘punishment’. Because those who held them were not permitted to bring out their family members, long and emotionally traumatic periods of separation occurred. So painful was this, that many family members attempted the boat journey in order to join their loved ones. Some perished on the way. Psychiatrists were so appalled at the mental suffering of those holding TPVs, and their families, that they advised against them. This persuaded the Rudd Government to abandon them.

The third element – turning the boats around was highly contentious and still is. Tony Abbott is vigorously echoing this element to this very day, on Insiders. He says: ‘…they did it safely before, we can do it safely again’. In doing so, Abbott ignores the advice of naval authorities, which insist it is dangerous to both asylum seekers and the service personnel who have to turn the boat around. The former chief of the defense force and head of Navy under the Howard government, Admiral Chris Barrie, told ABC radio this past week that it was not possible to ''mount an impermeable barrier at sea'', and that it was dangerous for all involved to tow or turn around boats. We all know that under these circumstances asylum seekers have damaged their boats and disabled their motors to force a rescue and achieve transport to Christmas Island.

In response to Admiral Barrie, hairy-chested Abbott upped the ante by insisting that commanders of naval vessels were subject to the will of the civilian government, an assertion challenged by Barrie: ''Policy can't override international law and cannot tell a commanding officer what decisions he must make at sea at the time''. Professor Don Rothwell, international law expert at ANU, agreed: “…there was no firm legal basis for turning asylum boats around.”

Not satisfied, Abbott then came out and said that naval personnel would remove fuel from vessels nearer to Indonesia to stop them continuing to Christmas Island. He did not explain how these officers would know how much fuel to remove so that the boat could return to Indonesia, perhaps in heavy sea conditions, yet prevent it from proceeding to Australia. But that matters nothing to Abbott who wishes only to show the electorate now tough and resolute he is, something the rednecks would applaud. On Insiders this morning David Marr did give an explanation. You can hear it here.

Abbott is hairy-chested not just with the Australian electorate, but also with the Indonesian Government.

Abbott says he would need to boost the navy and to travel to Indonesia to deliver ‘the tough message’. Scott Morrison said a Coalition government would ''…fix things up on our side of the fence'' and expect the Indonesian government to ''do more'' to stop vessels.” Asked whether Indonesia would accept the forced return of boats, Abbott aggressively insisted: ''The legal home of these vessels, Indonesian flagged, Indonesian crewed, Indonesian ported, is in Indonesia.''

But a senior Indonesian official said Indonesia would object strongly to the Coalition's policy of forcing asylum boats back into Indonesian waters. ''It's exactly like you going to someone else's house and throwing dirt there,'' the official said, on the condition of anonymity. ''Why would we take something that is not our property?''

“There are also practical problems with the turn-around policy, the official said. Unless the boats were to be abandoned on the high seas, or handed over to the Indonesian navy mid-ocean, they would need to be towed to land. But there is no safe port on Java's southern shore because the seas are too high and dangerous. This would mean the Australian navy towing an asylum boat to Tanjung Priok, Jakarta's commercial and military port, which is many hours' sail away on Java's northern shore. The source said the Australian navy would never be given permission for this kind of incursion into Indonesian waters. ''It's impossible for a military ship to get security clearance and border clearance,'' the source said."


That seems to put paid to Abbott’s ‘we’ll turn back the boats’ threat. It is simply hot air, but we can be sure he will persist with it, and many will believe him. On Insiders this morning, David Marr reiterated Indonesia’s determination to not receive returned boats. He described Abbott’s notion that he could send boats back to Indonesia as ‘fantasy’.

It is noteworthy that only two other countries are known to have turned boats back - Italy sent boats back to Libya in 2009 and Thailand pushed Rohingya Burmese out to sea. Both countries have now stopped the practice.

Referring to the Abbott’s ‘evil’ policy, Malcolm Fraser concludes his article with: “Instead of restoring ''integrity and public confidence'', the Coalition's policy is detrimental to people seeking asylum, breaches our obligations under the Refugee Convention and appears to work from the position of the assumption of guilt.”

The Gillard Government solution
So what of the Gillard Government’s policy? Apart from its willingness to reopen Nauru as a compromise to the Coalition despite professional advice that this would be ineffectual, and to reconsider TPVs, its main policy thrust is its arrangement with the Malaysian Government to return up to 800 boat people in exchange for five times that number resettled in Australia, an arrangement Abbott describes as ‘a people swap and a dud deal for Australia’.

It is strongly believed by the Government that placing boat arrivals on a flight to Malaysia within a day or two of their arrival on Christmas Island would be a powerful deterrent. Even the mention of this before the High Court struck down its implementation, was followed by a drop in arrivals. How could people smugglers sell passages to Christmas Island when all arrivals there were to be immediately sent to Malaysia to wait for processing there, perhaps for years – to go back, as it were ‘to the end of the queue’?

The Government of Malaysia has given guarantees of proper treatment and adherence to human rights for those returned. It has also guaranteed that those returned could work and their children attend school.

Abbott has attacked the Malaysia arrangement on the grounds that Malaysia is not a signatory to the UNHCR Convention on refugees and that human rights are therefore not guaranteed. This is a grossly hypocritical argument since his current policy includes sending boats back to Indonesia, a non-signatory, and all the time the Coalition used Nauru, it too was a non-signatory.

If the object is to deter people from taking the hazardous boat journey from Indonesia to Christmas Island, there seems to be no better deterrent than the Malaysia arrangement. As it now stands, boats are coming every few days, often calling for help, in a recent instance only fifty miles on the journey from Indonesia, and even when told to turn back, continued to proceed to Christmas Island. Asylum seekers were thereby thumbing their noses at Australia and its maritime services, which the boat people expected to ‘rescue’ them if they got into distress. Sadly, in recent weeks over a hundred people have drowned.

At the end of his article, Mike Carlton drew this conclusion: “Deeply flawed though it is, the government's so-called Malaysian solution is the least worse option we have.”

So where does this analysis of facts and the application of logic leave us?

Many who blog here would like our nation to make asylum seekers welcome, to erase the stigma that attaches to them, to increase very substantially the number admitted, to have them come here safely, to integrate them into our society, to have them contribute to our country and to live happy and productive lives free from the persecution they suffered back home.

But unless the numbers accepted increase massively, unless processing time is reduced to just a few weeks, unless safe transport to Australia is provided, asylum seekers will continue to pay people smugglers for a passage to Christmas Island on unsafe boats and make the perilous journey. Some will perish. This is what everyone with an ounce of compassion in his or her heart wants to avoid. They want the hazardous boat traffic stopped.

How does Australia stop asylum seekers risking their lives on unsafe boats? No ‘solution’ is ideal; none is perfect. We are left choosing the least imperfect.

The Greens’ solution seems to be impractical and almost certainly ineffective. The boats will keep coming.

The Coalition solution is highly unlikely to be an effective one as the people smugglers will guarantee their clients that if they are genuine refugees, it is almost certain they will be resettled in Australia or New Zealand, which is just what they want. The boats will keep coming.

The only solution that seems to have any chance of being effective is the Government’s Malaysia arrangement. Tony Abbott won’t support it, not because of the human rights issues that he says concern him, but because he fears it will work and he will lose a key political lever against the Government. He is prepared to see people continue to risk their lives on leaky boats for his own political advantage. He won’t even join a cross party committee to discuss alternatives. His ulterior motives are transparent.

In my view, with the current intake and the long wait so many have, the Malaysia arrangement is the ONLY practical way to deter arrivals on unsafe boats. If this could be a precursor to a broader regional agreement under the “Bali Process” – Building Regional Cooperation to Combat People Smuggling and Trafficking in Persons, a definitive solution that all in the region could endorse just might be possible.

What do you think?

Comments (322) -

July 8. 2012 03:54 PM

jaycee

The change of proceedure by the "traffickers" to literally push people out to sea in deliberately chosen "leaky boats", makes a game changer to the problem. Processing onshore now becomes a search and rescue mission on top of all else. The "Nauru solution" becomes more of the same as there will be more boats.
One has to concede in the current "sophistication" of trafficking, a regional solution re; Malasia or Indonesia has to be tried. there may have to be an increase in acceptance numbers, but there has to be a regional solution. This problem is as much our neighbours as much as ours...we have to cooperate, not aggravate.

jaycee

July 8. 2012 04:38 PM

DMW

On the 10th of December 1992, then Australian Prime Minister, Paul Keating, gave his landmark Redfern Park speech.

Some words from that speech that could be held in our minds as we discuss the so called 'Asylum Seeker Problem' may give us another way of looking at it.

... We practised discrimination and exclusion.
It was our ignorance and our prejudice. And our failure to imagine that these things could be done to us. With some noble exceptions, we failed to make the most basic human response and enter into their hearts and minds. We failed to ask – how would I feel if this was done to me?
As a consequence, we failed to see that what we were doing degraded us all.


Also before we discuss supposed solutions to this problem we need to decide something else.

Should we as a nation abide by our obligations under the Refugee Convention and various other international and/or regional treaties and conventions we are signatory to or not?

We have to choose between being law makers and law keepers or being law breakers.

As a country we currently don't seem able to take heed of advice of experts in the fields of human rights and particularly the rights of displaced persons.

In the last week the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights issued the Report of the Special Rapporteur on the human rights of migrants.

Imprisoning migrants is not the answer, says UN expert
States use a wide range of reasons to justify the detention of migrants and some see irregular migration as a national security problem or a criminal issue, notes the UN Special Rapporteur on the human rights of migrants, François Crépeau, in his latest report to the Human rights Council. However, he warns, there are a number of human rights issues at stake.

“Any detention of migrants must be prescribed by law and must be necessary, reasonable and proportional to the objectives to be achieved,” Crépeau says, drawing special attention to the fact that the right to liberty and security of person, the protection against arbitrary detention, and all other human rights are applicable to all detained persons, regardless of their migration status.

ohchr.org/.../...tsisnottheanswersaysUNexpert.aspx

The full report is available here: ohchr.org/.../A-HRC-20-24_en.pdf

The government and our Prime Minister need to get over a few things and start leading a debate that answers some important questions which go to the maturity of the nation and our standing in the region.

As things stand we are, as Keating said, degrading ourselves with the current level of debate on this issue.

DMW

July 8. 2012 04:38 PM

Marilyn

They are not paying criminal smugglers do to anything, it is not smuggling as it is their legal right.

The fact is Malaysia is ridiculous and illegal.  Why do we punish one small group of people to force other groups of people to die elsewhere.

Which part of we have no right don't you racist blithering cowards get?

And now that the news has all come out that the only times people drown are when we let them what is it you monkeys are on about?

And you never ask the simple question - what if all nations do the same frigging stupid whiney things?

Yemen copes with over 100,000 refugees arriving by sea every year, what if they send them all back?   How about if Europe forced back the tens of thousands who arrive there?   What if the neighbours get sick of us human trading into their countries and decide to do the same to us and why do you morons think that it was about Malaysia or Nauru?   Are they are countries and why do you think people who have been terrorised in Afghanistan, Pakistan, possibly Malaysia, Iran, Indonesia and elsewhere should stay away or be pushed away again by us.

It takes a particularly racist nation to arrogantly assume we are allowed to do what you think?

And having money to pay to be safe is nothing to do with anything.

Everyone has THE RIGHT TO SEEK ASYLUM.   And the boats are not that dangerous.

And the only people pushing refugees onto boats are the Indonesian army and immigration people trained by us to do so.

You just don't get it.  If one of the 148 nations in the refugee protection regime breaks the law they all will and there will be mass genocides because you cowards it is not about us.

Marilyn

July 8. 2012 04:47 PM

Marilyn

From the Daily Telegraph and Peter VAn Onselen showing what the so-called debate was really about, something all the rest of the racist media bogans forgot to report.

There is no such thing as this mysterious off shore processing though.  To gain protection in any country people can only apply in that country.  Resettlement is the voluntary migration of people who already have protection and has no legal basis whatsoever.   WE already process claims sent by the UNHCR in 36 of our near embassies - it's just that we only accept 10% of them so the rest just die.

If you want to write about these things learn some facts.




WHETHER you favour onshore or offshore processing of asylum seekers, few Australians could disagree that the inability of our political class to find a compromise solution in the wake of recent deaths at sea has been a thoroughly unedifying spectacle.
The parliament has limped into disrepute this week and all political parties need to share in the blame. A major reason no compromise could be reached is because of the historical animosities which have plagued asylum seeker debates in this country.
The Liberal Party, which sent families of asylum seekers to Nauru when it was in government, well before the small island nation had signed the UN convention on refugees, now condemns Labor's Malaysian solution on humanitarian grounds. The major reason Tony Abbott and Scott Morrison would not support the legislation, apparently, is because Malaysia has not signed up to the UN conventions.
Talk about chutzpah.
The opposition demands Australia only consider an offshore solution with a nation that has signed the treaty, safe in the knowledge that Nauru finally did just that recently.
I applaud the principled stand from the Coalition (finally), but what about Indonesia? It is the country boat people are using as a conduit to get here and like Malaysia, it hasn't signed the UN treaty. Yet the Coalition would happily tow boats back there as part of its border protection policy.
It's a mammoth contradiction. When Joe Hockey showed outrage in parliament on Wednesday because of the implications of sending children to Malaysia he should think about how towing them back to Indonesia compares. Less favourably in this lesser of evils comparison.
Not that Labor has much to be proud of in this debate. The ALP railed against offshore processing during the Howard years. Julia Gillard was front and centre when they did, as shadow immigration spokeswoman no less.
When the immigration minister during Kevin Rudd's prime ministership, Chris Evans, dismantled the so-called Pacific Solution shortly after Labor was elected, he declared it the proudest moment of his political career.
I wonder how Evans feels now, as Labor argues for a Malaysian Solution which includes shipping women and children off to an under-developed country, where asylum seekers won't be under Australian control (as at least occurred in Nauru) and will be left to fend for themselves as second class citizens with limited access to basic human rights. It is undoubtedly a tougher policy than Nauru, in the present or in the past.
Then we have the Greens, who have long taken the moral high ground and preached to the major parties about the worth of onshore processing on humanitarian grounds. The humane treatment of asylum seekers has always been their mantra. Yet when faced with deaths at sea, in the hundreds no less, they are not prepared to even consider a short-term fix to stop boat arrivals and hence save lives at sea.
The Greens' failure to compromise disqualifies them from being regarded as a third force in Australian politics. While I for one admire (and agree with) their purity in philosophical terms, legislators sometimes need to be pragmatic, and this may be one of those times. Our entire parliamentary system is based on deal making.
A minor party unprepared to do deals is more suited to being a special interest group than a political party.
Contradictions and stalemates haven't been the only features of this week's asylum seeker debate. Hypocrisy and misrepresentation have long been at the forefront of it.
The Coalition claimed it has always been consistent in arguing for a Pacific solution, now criticising Labor for closing the centre at Nauru. But former immigration spokeswoman Sharman Stone told the ABC in 2009: "We don't need the Pacific Solution now, that's Nauru Island and Manos Island, because we have the Christmas Island centre completed."
In other words, the Coalition went along with Labor's move to shut down Pacific Island processing centres following the expansion of the facility on Christmas Island, yet now attempts to chastise the government for having done so. No wonder the public winces when it watches politicians in full flight.
Labor used the final sitting day before the winter recess to slam the opposition for refusing to compromise to find a solution to the impasse. It was as if they were not listening to the compromise offer Abbott put on the table the evening before.
The Morrison amendment, as it was called, offered up an increase in Australia's humanitarian refugee intake to 20,000 and the ditching of TPVs as a requirement for Coalition support of off-shore processing laws. The catch was that Malaysia needed to be jettisoned and only Nauru considered.T
hat is the very definition of compromise, albeit one unacceptable to Labor. Yet Gillard said: "Mr Abbott did not move one millimetre at any stage".
That is an absolute misrepresentation if ever I have seen one, shameful for a prime minister during a time of national crisis.
Both leaders tell us time is of the essence because of the dangerous conditions at sea. They claim we need a solution right now so that more asylum seekers do not drown. How then does the Coalition square that with the suggestion of opening Nauru?
The centre has been closed for years, is run down, unstaffed and it would take many months to get it into an operational state. Just in time for the end of the hazardous sea conditions of this time of year, and presumably after more deaths at sea.
Meanwhile, Gillard has sent debate about what to do about the asylum seekers stand-off to a committee, which will report back God knows when.
At its core perhaps the biggest embarrassment in this whole debate is the way that Australian law-makers (politicians) are running away from Australian law. The whole unsavoury point of offshore processing is to restrict boat people from Australia's appeals courts, which give them numerous opportunities to prove their refugee status. That's why Christmas Island was excluded from the migration zone in the first place. That's why politicians want the navy to intercept boats and ship them to offshore sites, whether it's Nauru or Malaysia or anywhere else.
How utterly pathetic that the only political solution our two major parties have come up with is to hide from the laws of the country they represent. Surely they either must change these laws if they don't like them (even if doing so requires a referendum), or they must accept the consequences?
Our political leaders respecting the law of the land they serve should be the only principle not open to compromise in this debate.
Finally, we have the rhetoric to consider. Abbott has described boat people as being part of a "peaceful invasion". Even with a handful of boats coming here each week the numbers hardly amount to an "armada" of boats as Abbott has previously described it. The aim of such rhetoric was to polarise debate and play to people's fears about boat arrivals, and it has succeeded.
However, the numbers of refugee arrivals are in fact very low by world standards, those that do try to come here never make it to the mainland anyway, they are always intercepted, which debunks the invasion rhetoric.
This Coalition rhetoric was preceded by Labor rhetoric during the Howard years which condemned the former prime minster as a virtual criminal of international law. He was accused of all manner of things, including playing with the lives of children for political advantage. No wonder Liberals now look at what Labor is offering up by way of the Malaysian Solution and simply shake their collective heads.
The temperature of debate over asylum seekers has been too high for too long, militating against compromise, as we again saw this week. It is hard to know where this debate now moves on to. Boats will keep coming, the major parties will continue to blame one another for that, and the public will slowly lose more and more faith in our leaders' capacities to run the country, not just in the policy space in question.
As tragic as deaths at sea are, the simple fact is that asylum seekers are desperate people, and they would be risking their lives to make their way to other safe havens if they weren't doing so to come here. Genuine refugees fleeing persecution would certainly be in jeopardy were they to stay put in their homeland and not attempt to reach safe havens. In other words, deaths at sea of boat people trying to reach Australia is but one isolated tragedy in a worldwide tragedy of refugee migration. It is an unfixable failure of global affairs.
Dr Peter van Onselen is a university professor and The Sunday Telegraph's political commentator
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Marilyn

July 8. 2012 04:49 PM

Marilyn

And further to that Malaysia crap - how does taking people from this nation when most have already suffered decades of war and torture and dumping them for a 76 year wait in Malaysia solve anything?

And what is the question that needs solving by breaking every law in the book?

You really are stupid old son.

Marilyn

July 8. 2012 04:58 PM

tincan

Another alternative plan would be one suggested by Julian Burnside, that we set up office in Indonesia, Dept Immigration, ASIO and Federal Police and start processing these people ASAP. There are only 2 UNHCR personnel in Indonesia to process thousands of people. In the past 6 months we have accepted just 60 people from the UNHCR camp.  

tincan

July 8. 2012 05:20 PM

Truth Seeker

Aa, the only thing in your article that I would dispute is the 70% resettled figure, as the information that I came across when looking at a number of different reports, was that the figure was closer to 96%. Other than that you are right on the money, as all the experts have come to the same conclusions. The problem with "On-shore" processing, is exactly that "On-shore" and to get on-shore you either have to travel by plane or boat, and as you rightly point out, if we open up our borders for another fifty thousand or even one hundred thousand, there will still be others prepared to take the perilous boat trip, as there are many more asylum seekers than we can possibly take.
The ideological stand taken by the greens beggars belief, and Abbotts stand  is based only on political advantage and shows him to be morally bankrupt.

Truth Seeker

July 8. 2012 05:31 PM

Psyclaw


Marilyn

Welcome to TPS. Haven't seen you here before, but of course I have on other sites. You have a unique style of grammar, and especially of vocabulary viz:

you racist blithering cowards........

.......what is it you monkeys are on about?

.........what if all nations do the same frigging stupid whiney things?


Over the last 2 years on other sites I have often supported things you have said. But the rate of boats and the rate of drownings have now changed the game and all of us have to adapt to this. You do too Marilyn, if you want anyone to support your views, and how else can you get things to be as you want them.

I recall when the Opposition first went heavy on stopping the boats "to keep ASs safe". At the time, I believed that that was absolute nonsense and political double speak to justify their towbacks and I opposed it. But the stakes are now different.

You quote PVO...... It is an unfixable failure of global affairs. This sums up the wisdom of his position and apparently your's too. Let them drown.

As I see it, it is self manifest that to be writing very very pro AS comments and endorsing at the same time PVO indicates deep confusion and self contradiction on your part.

And if you choose to reply to this post Marilyn, don't bother with the invective .....water of a duck's back to me.


Psyclaw

July 8. 2012 05:45 PM

Marilyn

The things you and others have failed to note:
1.  the end of the civil war in Sri Lanka that saw 40,000 civilians slaughtered, 300,000 rounded up into camps and 11,000 disappeared - do you think that might have accounted for the 140,000 Tamils being granted refugee status around the world in 2010? Or just our policy?
2.  The Iranian election in 2009 that was rigged by the mullahs with dissidents and religious minorities singled out for torture and killing?   Do you think that might have anything to do with the increase in christians, human rights advocates and Sabaen Mandaeans fleeing Iran in the last few years?  Or just our policy.
3.   the massive increase of sectarian murders of christians, human rights advocates and sabean Mandaeans and the explusion of Palestinians from Iraq have anything to do with more Iraqis?  Or just our policy.
4.  the surge in Afghanistan which saw the massive increase in genocide against hazara and minority groups not to mention the massacres committed by NATO and us?  Or just our policy.
5.  the 2009 taliban war started in Pakistan that sees thousands of deaths and the genocide of Hazara and other shiítes become the national sport?
6.   the starvation and persecution of Palestinians increasing since the 2009 Gaza massacre?
7.   the uprising in Egpyt has seen a huge increase in Egyptians flying here, not mentioned.
8.  the increased brutality in Zimbabwe has seen a big increase of them flying here, not mentioned.
9.  the steady flow of Falun Gong and others fleeing China, not mentioned.

With just 0.0001% of the world's refugees ever getting to Australia what precisely do you think our policy has to do with anything?

The only way to prevent refugees anywhere is to wipe out the entire human race and let the cockroaches, couch grass and chokos take over.

Apart from that I do not want to answer one more ignorant question, do you own research.

Marilyn

July 8. 2012 05:48 PM

jaycee

Marilyn..I find it is best to seek out a doctor who will perform surgery with a sharp scalpel, NOT a meat cleaver!
Mr. Van Onselen of the Daily Telegraph, is one of those Murdoch employees who will bend in the wind. That he is leaning toward your preferred direction on this issue at this moment, is mere fortutious. I have read other articles by the same author would make a lefty cough and choke!
As to debate on the above subject, yell, cry, rage against the wind by all means, but please, spare us..PARTICULARLY us, the abuse. We are trying to be part of a solution (of which in your posts I see none!)not a ploblem...THAT already exists! and as Mr. Von Onselen states ; it is a world-wide failure.
I fully support onshore processing, but to "get onshore", one has to be taken "Off shore". AND THAT, and its'solution, is the current debate.
Please contribute...

jaycee

July 8. 2012 05:49 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Ad Astra said – ” The only solution that seems to have any chance of being effective is the Government’s Malaysia arrangement. “

This statement is simply partisan nonsense.

As Astra ignores consideration of temporary protection visas and the potential deterrent they provide. How is it that they do not assist to “break the business model”

He neglects to address a genuine, extensive program of informing the crews recruited by the people smugglers about the gaol term consequences of their actions. Something that the government has belatedly acknowledged as worthwhile.

Why have these long gaol terms if the government has not sought to inform of the deterrent?

Ad Astra sees punishing people desperate by sending them off shore as reasonable in the circumstances. Yet he doesn’t acknowledge that this is a “problem” created by the government.

…and also – “they ignore the terrible mental trauma suffered by those incarcerated on Nauru and Manus Island, often for years.”

…and yet Ad Astra is able to see his way clear to inflicting the trauma of sending vulnerable people to Malaysia.

Tom of Melbourne

July 8. 2012 05:50 PM

2353

I'm not convinced about Malaysia (or the Greens on-shore) solution either.  Setting up office in Indonesia is not a real option either as those that don't want to or don't know how to "be processed" will still spend time in leaky boat rather than go to the processing office.  For the record I emailed Senator Milne the other day to ask for more details as their "on-shore processing" plan had not been well explained in the media (or whats wrong with a compromise so that people don't die on boats).  I got a response - but I still have no idea on how The Greens proposed on-shore plan would work or why they won't compromise.  Either it is a work in progress or they have the opinion their plan will not be implemented any time soon.

The real issue here is that 40 years ago, Australia accepted Vietnamese and other South East Asian people in the thousands I suspect in part because we helped cause the problem in the first place (the Vietnam War).  This was done by both major tribes of politicians.  10 years ago John Howard used the "refugee problem" to win an election.  What happened to the Australia psyche in the 30 years between the 70's and the 00's that effectively makes such a difference to how we as a country treat our fellow human beings?

I'm not arguing that some checking of credentials etc should not be done when a refugee first encounters an Australian official, but Canada can do it in 3 days with double the number of refugees - what's our problem?  Regardless of "deterrent effects", "quotas", "regional processing plans" or any other scheme - it is human nature to desire a better life for yourself and your family  It is my opinion that the thing that will "stop the boats" in the end will be that the standard of living of those who live in the areas to the north west of Australia will rise to a sufficient level so that those that currently would consider attempting to get to Australia deem that the risks outweigh the benefits.  

Unfortunately it seems the current level of political debate in this country stoops to the level of demonising other human beings from a different cultural environment - unfortunately it also appears the political will to fix the problem is further away today than it was in the 1970's - and that is pathetic.  

2353

July 8. 2012 05:58 PM

Marilyn

The thing is Jaycee you are talking tripe.  We cannot shove people from our shores when they arrive to apply for protection.   There has not been a case in any court in the world won by any country to allow such a thing.

We have three programs at the moment if you bothered to check the DIAC website.

1.  refugee resettlement which is a tiny voluntary program of taking refugees referred by the UNHCR but only if we are the country of last resort, only if they are well off and only if they suit us.   6,000 people out of the 47,000 who apply in 36 different embassies.   All we have to do is accept more of them.
2.  the special humanitarian which is a sponsorship for families of refugees already here and that has to be applied for here, it cannot be applied for over seas.
3.   the protection of refugees seeking asylum who have to be here.

Letting people get here and then expelling them without process is illegal.  And expensive and pointless because the reason for getting rid of them is so we don't have to accept them.  It's getting them out and shutting the door permanently and that is illegal.

In the Evian Conference of 1938 22 western nations shut the door on Jewish refugees - our contribution was 13 words that a like being kicked by a herd of elephants - we don't have a racial problem, we are not desirous of importing one.

There is no debate at the moment, it's a stupid fiction.

And Psyclaw, in 13 years a few hundred refugees have drowned only when we let them,to then punish and push away others for our crimes is beyond ludicrous.

In that same 13 years 117 million children starved to death before they hit 5,  about 208,000 Afghan women died in childbirth, 25% of all the kids born died before they were 5, over 1 million Iraqis starved to death or were slaughtered in our war, hundreds of thousands of Afghans are dead, tens of thousands of Sri Lankans dead, 5,000 Australian's drowned.

And you pretend that a few refugees drowning is really a serious issue?  Spare us the lies and crocodile tears used to justify criminal behaviour by the parliament.

Marilyn

July 8. 2012 06:09 PM

Ad astra

jaycee
Thank you for your comment.  A regional solution that involves all countries that house or receive refugees would seem to be the way to go.

DMW
Thank you for your thoughtful contribution and the links.  Many who blog here would acknowledge that refugees have the legal right to seek asylum.  It is the sheer numbers that are daunting.  Moreover, the attitudes of many in the community remain a barrier to the acceptance of more than a trickle of refugees into Australia.  I would like to see from those who support larger migration a plan for that happening.

Ad astra

July 8. 2012 06:11 PM

Ad astra

Marilyn
Instead of coming here and throwing gratuitous insults such as labeling unspecified people as ‘racist blithering cowards’, ‘monkeys’, ‘morons’ and ‘stupid’, why don’t you assist us to understand what you would do were you Prime Minister of this country.  Let’s start by acknowledging that it is perfectly legal for people to seek asylum.

Specifically, tell us:
How many refugees would you admit to Australia each year?
If you felt that you could not admit everyone who wanted to come here, what number would you admit?
How would you decide who shall come?
What authority would process their applications?
From what countries would you admit them?
How would you bring them here, or how would you permit them to come?
Would you be comfortable about them coming on Indonesian fishing boats?
If not, how would you stop them coming?
If they came on Indonesian boats, would you be prepared to rescue them if they ran into difficulties on the high seas?
How would you manage those whom you were unwilling or unable to admit?

When we have your answers to these questions, there will be something we can debate with you.

Neither you nor PvO have offered an alternative strategy.  All you both have offered is trenchant criticism of those would have the power to determine these things.  It is so easy to criticize and affix pejorative labels.  Let’s have some constructive ideas sans insults.

Ad astra

July 8. 2012 06:13 PM

Ad astra

ToM
You are in the same category as Marilyn.

Why don't you answer the questions I posed to Marilyn?

Ad astra

July 8. 2012 06:18 PM

Ad astra

2353
I would be interested to see your solution, and how you would answer the questions that I posed to Marilyn.

Ad astra

July 8. 2012 06:18 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Ad Astra, how about you specially address a few questions-
•  Why is sending people off shore preferable to other options, such as TPVs?
•  When there are so many people seeking asylum, why is it desirable policy to send them to Malaysia?
•  Why didn’t the government previously support an extensive program of informing potential crews of their actions? and why doesn’t the government assess the effectiveness of this policy before sending desperate people to Malaysia?

How about you stop the bland and non stop endorsement of government policy and address some inadequacies of it?

Tom of Melbourne

July 8. 2012 06:19 PM

jaycee

Marilyn. Your rage is choking up the debate. If you take the time to "see" what we are saying, you will notice I wrote that we will have to increase the intake. The "regional solution" is to stop people getting on boats to come here, not sending them back!...repeat ; to stop the dangerous attempt to come by boat.
Sure, we could all intersperse abuse and invective against others amongst our propersitions, but I would rather save THAT for Tom and the right-wingers..and in passing, I think I could state without contradiction that 45yrs in the building trade has armed me with such a vocabulary as would make your hair curl..in at least half a dozen different languages...BUT..I believe we all here(save Tom)are mostly on the same side and mostly singing from the same song-sheet(except Tom)!
Lastly, we are all pretty much aware of the legality and obligations of the situation (though maybe not as well read on the subject as yourself), but that does not exclude the realpolitik of the situation which is under debate.
Let us continue.

jaycee

July 8. 2012 06:47 PM

Jason

"ToM and Marilyn" Two card carrying members of the democrats!
Spare me your sanctimonious tripe

Jason

July 8. 2012 06:48 PM

Patriciawa

Well said, AA.  Sad that Marilyn's compassion for refugees is too often overshadowed by her rage and leads her into abuse of those commenting rather than constructive criticism of what they have to say.  It's caused her eviction from other sites, which is a pity, because she really cares passionately about this and could contribute a lot.

Thanks for this really comprehensive overview of AS issue. It reminds that I went down on the day of the big debate and have a been a largely passive observer of everything that's been said since.  I had planned some NOTES for my polliepomes.wordpress.com/.../ pome.  So there's some unfinished work to do there and for which I will now be better informed thanks to this work you've done, and to Miglo's comments at cafewhispers.wordpress.com/.../

Best day I've had so far!   Feeling a bit more than half normal!

Patriciawa

July 8. 2012 06:53 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Yes Jason, it's so much easier just to send asylum seekers to Malaysia.

Just punish those people, and let that be  a lesson to the rest of them.

Nice.

Tom of Melbourne

July 8. 2012 06:53 PM

Ad astra

ToM
For the answer to your questions, try reading the piece again.  Before coming back, try answering the questions I posed to Marilyn.  We’re looking for answers here, not more rhetoric.

Ad astra

July 8. 2012 06:57 PM

Ad astra

Patriciawa
I’m glad that things are improving for you.  Thank you for your encouraging comment.

Marilyn is obviously passionate about this issue.  I’m looking forward to reading her answers to my questions.

Ad astra

July 8. 2012 07:13 PM

Psyclaw


Marilyn

Thanks for your reply and also thanks for pretty well sparing me the invective.

You write:<i>Letting people get here and then expelling them without process is illegal  ......   It's getting them out and shutting the door permanently and that is illegal.</i>

Yes, under the current Migration Act sending ASs elsewhere is indeed illegal. The HC said so last August. That's the very point. It's only illegal under current legislation, hence it is not being done.

The debate that you are uninterested in is about changing the legislation to make it legal.

And before you go off !!!!!!!! let me suggest you read s1 of the Constitution .......only the Australian parliament can make law for Australia.

So called International Law , Conventions, Treaties etc have no legal status in Australia unless the Australian Parliament specifically legislates them.

Your argument if it depend on "legality" has no legs.

As I said earlier, I have supported some of your arguments in the past, especially those parts which are related to your values. But something is not illegal if the Australian Parliament so legislates, subject to HC review if challenged.

Psyclaw

July 8. 2012 07:21 PM

Psyclaw



AA

I note that  you have been asked several questions shortly after 6.17pm.

With respect might I suggest that answers are not needed since the information, whilst couched in the structure of questions, are really mere statements of that person's opinions.

That is the dishonest writer's way of disseminating info ..... putting it "out there".

It saves effort in not having to present one's case, and it avoids scrutiny of pissy arguments.

Psyclaw

July 8. 2012 07:23 PM

Tom of Melbourne

How many refugees would you admit to Australia each year?
•  As many as required to participate in a meaningful way in the region, and to alieviate the problem in Indonesia, rather than just transfer our problem to them.

If you felt that you could not admit everyone who wanted to come here, what number would you admit?
•  I certainly wouldn’t shun desperate people by sending them to Malaysia, and then hypocritically complain about the trauma of being sent to Nauru.

How would you decide who shall come?
•  If people arrive here and seek our protection, we’re big enough and sufficiently resourceful to meet the (minor) challenge.

What authority would process their applications?
•  I don’t particularly care who processes their application, do you?

From what countries would you admit them?
•  If people arrive here and seek our protection, we’re big enough and sufficiently resourceful to meet the (minor) challenge

How would you bring them here, or how would you permit them to come?
•  If people arrive here and seek our protection, we’re big enough and sufficiently resourceful to meet the (minor) challenge

Would you be comfortable about them coming on Indonesian fishing boats?
•  If they are aware of the danger of the travel, that’s a major deterrent. Increase surveillance.

If not, how would you stop them coming?
•  Why do you so mean spirited?

If they came on Indonesian boats, would you be prepared to rescue them if they ran into difficulties on the high seas?
•  Of course, we should be humanitarian.

How would you manage those whom you were unwilling or unable to admit?
•  That’s entirely a different question to off shore processing.

Now, perhaps you’ll address yourself to some reasonable questions, rather than just repeating the government line.

Tom of Melbourne

July 8. 2012 07:27 PM

jaycee

I believe the region is on the cusp of finding a solution to such a huge influx of refugees (re. the numbers in your post). I cannot believe our neighbours would be that enamoured of them even if All were Muslim. This recent phenomenon due to so much conflict, of which we must shoulder some blame, will, I believe bring the relevant govts' to the table for a solution. Aust' could and should greatly enlarge its' intake along with joint assistance programs with the relevant countries.
I suspect a more social(ist) solution will, by necessity, have to be adopted for a permanent solution to be found. Perhaps a special ASEAN summit could be called to address the issue?
  

jaycee

July 8. 2012 07:33 PM

Sir Ian Crisp

I would like to congratulate Marilyn for not mentioning the Bakhtiari family.

Sir Ian Crisp

July 8. 2012 07:55 PM

Ad astra

ToM
Your answers are generic.  How about putting some approximate figures to them?  Tony Abbott suggested an increase to 20,000 per annum, Christine Milne 25,000.  Is your figure about the same?  If it is bigger, as is suggested by your statement: “As many as required to participate in a meaningful way in the region, and to alleviate the problem in Indonesia, rather than just transfer our problem to them”, what is your figure?  50,000, 100,000, 200,000, 500,000, or more?  Give us a rough idea.

And if you believe there are more refugees than we can take, what would you do about those who couldn’t be included in your quota?
If some were left behind in Indonesia, would it be OK for them to come on fishing boats, even although that would push Australia over the quota you recommend?  How many more would you be prepared to accept via this group?

Now don’t avoid these questions ToM, as it is the sheer logistics that overwhelm all those who genuinely seek to manage refugee numbers.  I think you would find that most people are humanitarian, kind-heated, sympathetic, and want to do the best they can for refugees.  It is simply the magnitude of the problem that defeats them.

Share your logistic wisdom with us.

Ad astra

July 8. 2012 08:01 PM

paul walter

Re Marilyn, I know her personally and she does wear her heart on her sleeve as to this issues. To dismiss it as sanctimony is neither necessary or sufficient..it's well-intentioned.
While many Aussies have got on with their uncaring, unconsidered hedonistic lives here in the relative lap of luxury, she's followed this uncomfortable real world issue at length and in depth for a long, long time, so I'd commend Patricia WA's insightful reading of state of play.
Marilyn can and will expose any flaws in the excuses of politicians and others unsympathetic to the asylum seeker's plight. She's right, we are cowards.
Yet I agree with Adastra as to the current situation against the backdrop of political realities home here as well as abroad.
I personally have a sense that the failure to cease discrimination against refugees fleeing from war zones, against others also arriving here in the millions from elsewhere, is at the root of the thing. It is a stoopid policy, I believe. It's related to the Bush Howard Murdoch Islam scares of the early part of the decade, but an intelligent person can see that Jihadists would get into the country far easier on a 767 than by leaky boat, with bombs nursed on their laps.
What refugee advocates often fail to see is that this current problem has arisen from uncertainties induced in the general public through neoliberalism in times of high unemployment in the past and the sense that newcomers are to be be played off against local workers, perhaps causing the busting of unions and the safeguards gradually put in place for the working classes over a century of struggle locally. Is it full-on racism we cope with, or mere insecurity?
Probably a bit of both.
Adastra's comment re the Greens is perhaps correct, I've always also felt that the refusal to approximate intake numbers, eg as to current resources and infrastructure has been a mistake- it has only added to the insecurity that has grown into a phobia. People won't "buy" the activist position without a more definite, detailed proposition or a guarantee that they are not affected unfairly relative to others; as with a used auto, they want a written warranty in case it goes wrong, somehow.
Even oiks know who really causes global suffering, it is the West and most of all, the 1%.
They know that the Rineharts of the world will pay nothing toward settlement costs, altho benefitting from war in some cases, as with Halliburton.
Any costs will invariably be carried by the majority. They will agree that we are involved in the wars and also general economic exploitation of the third world, but are reluctant to wear the costs of compensation when those even more responsible than they are walk away from any moral hazard, as they hav e done both in the wake of the mid east wars and the resulting global recession.
The big irony is that liblab followed the high pop road any way, employing visas for off shore workers to fill gaps in the local workforce and hold down wages.
No, activists are horrified both by the individual situation for the usually gratuitous misery involved, but also what it say about the way affairs are run in our miserable world and human nature in general. Whether you agree with the activist position or not, you can see good reason why often unnecessary suffering on this level should not be allowed to pass unremarked, or some minor, why NOT major effort be spent "Doing unto other as we'd have them do unto us", if the positions were reversed.

paul walter

July 8. 2012 08:02 PM

Ad astra

Truth Seeker
Thank you for your comment.  The reference for the 70% figure is Wikipedia’s ‘Pacific Solution’: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Solution where it says: ”Under the Pacific solution, 30 percent were sent home, 43 per cent of asylum seekers resettled from Nauru and Manus Island ended up in Australia. The remaining were settled in other countries.”

Ad astra

July 8. 2012 08:05 PM

Jason

ToM,
   "Yes Jason, it's so much easier just to send asylum seekers to Malaysia."
In the short term yes it is! I want to see an actual solution not the half arsed approach that we have now.
However life is a risk if people drown they drown.
I see their deaths no different to that of "train surfers, rock climbers" or any other dangerous pursuit, but don't make me feel guilty for their stupid choices no matter how noble the reason might be.

Jason

July 8. 2012 08:15 PM

DMW

Ad
yes the numbers are daunting and they will only become more daunting while our politicians continue playing politics and games of blame with the issue.

I purposely went back and read Keating's Redfern Speech earlier last week as I consider it was a turning point in Keating's Prime Ministership and big step towards a more mature debate on our relationship with the first Australians.

By taking responsibility for how and why we had gotten to where we were the nation was able to change direction and albeit very slowly accept notions such as native title, and that we owed an apology for our predecessors actions.

To take another quote from that speech:
This is a fundamental test of our social goals and our national will: our ability to say to ourselves and to the rest of the world that Australia is a first rate social democracy, that we are what we should be – truly the land of a fair go and the better chance.

The debate on how we treat those less fortunate than ourselves, those that feel the need to flee thier homeland to seek refuge in a strange faraway land is another of those fundamental tests of our national character.

Australians on the whole wish to be led, to have our government make the big calls for us and do so in our best interests.

Our current government and Prime Minister could turn this debate around if they dared to look beyond petty partisan poo throwing and laid out the challenges the world is facing with the ever increasing numbers of displaced persons and that we have a responsibility to accept refugees as well as a responsibility  to work positively in our region to assist other countries with the far greater problems with even bigger numbers of displaced persons landing on and living within their shores.

Through adversity arises opportunity and if Ms Gillard has the guts to rise above the fray and the petty politics and lead us to a better place in this debate we could all win. If they did so we could prove again that we are a first rate social democracy, that we are what we should be – truly the land of a fair go and the better chance.

So far the chances don't look good.

DMW

July 8. 2012 08:36 PM

Ad astra

paul walter
I accept that Marilyn is passionate about this matter, and sincere.  So is Sarah Hanson-Young, and Christine Milne, and I believe Julia Gillard and Chris Bowen are also.  It is the magnitude of the problem that is so daunting.  Generalities are of limited value when specific numbers are needed.

Let’s suppose that there were only 13,500 refugees seeking asylum.  As that is Australia’s quota for the year, all would be taken and welcomed.  No one would argue about that intake.  No one would have to board fishing boats to come to Australia.  And if they were processed quickly, we would all swell with pride.  But there are around 100,000 in Malaysia alone, and an uncertain number in Indonesia.  More come daily from Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Burma, and other places, more than we can possibly take.  That is why I ask ‘how many should we take?’  The lot?  If not, how many?  It is the actual numbers that constitute the problem.

None of those against offshore processing and in favour of onshore processing ever attempt to address the numbers.  In my view, to not do that is a cop out, as it is the sheer numbers that overwhelm even those with the best intentions.

Ad astra

July 8. 2012 08:46 PM

Ad astra

DMW
I am in accord with the sentiments you express and the examples you quote.  Wouldn’t it be gratifying if the political climate was such that Julia Gillard, or for that matter Tony Abbott, could make Keatingesque statements without being howled down, without being ridiculed, without being politically crushed by an opponent, without the electorate rising up in anger.  

I suspect our political leaders live in the constant shadow of how their opponents might attack them, how the electorate might react, what the polls might show, if they stood up and declared unequivocal support for asylum seekers.  One only has to reflect on how Tony Abbott uses every opportunity to deride, demean, and diminish Julia Gillard to understand why she is so guarded.

Courage in leadership is an admirable quality; it is scarcely robust enough to withstand the powerful forces pitted against leaders by their opponents and a vicious media.  

Ad astra

July 8. 2012 08:49 PM

Ad astra

jaycee
I do how you are right about an imminent regional solution being found.

Psyclaw
Thank you for your comments and your response to Marilyn.

Ad astra

July 8. 2012 08:53 PM

Ad astra

Folks
Here is the transcript of the extraordinary interview of Tony Abbott by Barrie Cassidy on Insiders this morning.

My initial assessment was that Abbott’s responses were a mixture of evasive behavior and slogans.  I thought I would analyze the transcript to see how accurate that assessment was.  Here it is.  Note that there were a number of questions related to the subject of this piece – the asylum seeker issue, which is why I am posting it now after receiving your initial responses.

BARRIE CASSIDY, PRESENTER: Tony Abbott, good morning, welcome.
TONY ABBOTT, OPPOSITION LEADER: G'day, Barrie.
BARRIE CASSIDY: So the business community wants certainty. You're certainly clear on one point, there will be no carbon tax under a ... But what about an emissions trading scheme? Will there be an emissions trading scheme at any point?
TONY ABBOTT: Well, the world is running away from an emissions trading scheme at a million miles an hour. It's been obvious since Copenhagen that we’re not moving toward these things, we’re moving away from them.
LIE 1
BARRIE CASSIDY: Are you sure about that though? That they’re moving away from a carbon tax perhaps, but you’re banking a lot on the fact there will never be an emissions trading scheme.
TONY ABBOTT: As I said, all the signs, whether it's America, Canada, whether it's the rest of the big economies, there are no signs that any of them are embracing a carbon tax or an economy-wide emissions trading scheme.
LIE 1 REPEATED
BARRIE CASSIDY: So you don't think there will ever be one in Australia; that Australia will ever be part of a global market?
TONY ABBOTT: Well who knows what might happen in a decade or two decades or three decades? But our challenge is to deal with the problems of today. And at the moment this is the world's biggest carbon tax at the worst possible time. SLOGAN  We are exposing ourselves to all sorts of economic damage, without doing any environmental good. SLOGAN
BARRIE CASSIDY: So you're satisfied that's the view of the business community as well, that they don't want an ETS in place at any point?
TONY ABBOTT: You can always find some voices that will say, 'yes, we want one.' But I don't think anyone wants a carbon tax of $23 a tonne - because the world's biggest carbon tax at a very bad time. LIE 2, SLOGAN
Now I've visited literally hundreds of businesses over the last year, I don't think Julia Gillard has visited very many at all, and the universal message I'm getting Barrie, is they don't want this thing because ...
BARRIE CASSIDY: They don't want the carbon tax ...
TONY ABBOTT: Because it’s going to act like a reverse tariff.
BARRIE CASSIDY: ... but the ETS is a different question.
TONY ABBOTT: Well I don't believe that it is a different question because it will act as a reverse tariff. If it's a unilateral carbon tax or a unilateral emissions trading scheme, it puts up our prices vis-a-vis our competitors, it hurts jobs in this country and effectively protects jobs in other countries. SLOGAN
BARRIE CASSIDY: Now you've got a problem repealing it of course, but the other issue is compensation. Your approach seems too good to be true. There will be no carbon tax, so therefore there will be no price rises, and yet people will get tax cuts anyway, and presumably the pension increases will stay?
TONY ABBOTT: We will pay for tax cuts without a carbon tax, and for pension increases without a carbon tax through sensible savings in unnecessary and wasteful government expenditure. SLOGAN
BARRIE CASSIDY: But why is there a need for those tax cuts or pension increases if there is no carbon tax?
TONY ABBOTT: Because we want people to be better off and we want government to live within its means.SLOGAN
Now at the last election Barrie, we came up with $50 billion worth of savings. LIE 3. The challenge will be harder this time, I accept that, because these are tougher fiscal times. But I believe that we can find significant savings that will enable us to give a tax cut without a carbon tax. SLOGAN
BARRIE CASSIDY: So you want people to be better off but you want government to live within its means. The two contradict each other.
TONY ABBOTT: I don’t believe that’s true, not at all. Look what's happened across the Tasman. In about five years, John Key has got government as a percentage of GDP (gross domestic product) down from 35 per cent to 30 per cent of GDP, that’s a 5 per cent reduction in government spending.
Now has New Zealand been devastated? No, it hasn't. These are the sorts of reductions that you can achieve over time if you believe in small government rather than big government. And that's Labor's problem. This is essentially an old-fashioned borrow and spend, tax and spend, Labor government that has forgotten the lessons that Bob Hawke and Paul Keating learnt. SLOGAN
BARRIE CASSIDY: You would make it easier if you had the mining tax, though, and at least with that tax you have significant community support.
TONY ABBOTT: The trouble with that mining tax Barrie, is that it is a success tax which sends exactly the wrong lesson to our citizens and the world. It says we are a country where if you succeed the government hits you. LIE 4. ALL GOVERNMENTS TAX SUCCESS, IT’S CALLED ‘PROGRSSIVE TAXATION’.
BARRIE CASSIDY: There was an editorial in the Australian that said that you might expect that Mr Abbott would gratefully accept these dollars on behalf of the community. Instead, even with a budget deep in deficit, Mr Abbott says no.
TONY ABBOTT: Because you've got to pursue the right policies for the long-term benefit of the country, not the wrong ones. And I want our country to be a country where success is celebrated not penalised. LIE 4 AGAIN
BARRIE CASSIDY: In retrospect, do you think, though, you misjudged when you so vigorously opposed the Queensland flood levy?
TONY ABBOTT: Look that was only ever a temporary levy, but it did express the fundamental conviction of the Coalition Barrie, that the ordinary business of government should be met out of the ordinary revenues of government.
Sure, the Queensland floods were a big disaster, but they weren't so big that we needed a new tax to pay for them.
BARRIE CASSIDY: But people copped it. Don't you think they showed a generosity of spirit in the way they dealt with that levy, they paid it and they moved on?
TONY ABBOTT: People don't show generosity by paying a tax, people show generosity by giving freely. Now people did give freely of their own income to the various appeals. That was generous. The government hitting you up with a tax, that's not generous.
BARRIE CASSIDY: But looking back on that, don't you think that people copped it?
TONY ABBOTT: In the end, people accept what government does, often not very willingly. But we are a democracy Barrie, and people understand that if you don't like the government you get rid of them at the next election. SLOGAN
BARRIE CASSIDY: Do you think that overall you do enough to promote the country, and particularly the strength of the economy?
TONY ABBOTT: Well the point I keep making at the moment Barrie, is that we are a great country let down by bad government. SLOGAN Now I'm always building up Australia and I think if we had a better government we would be much better able to play to our strengths.LIE 5
And what I hope after the next election we'll have is a better government that believes in lower taxes, better services, stronger borders and modern infrastructure. SLOGAN And that's what I want to do should I have the chance to govern the country after the next election.
BARRIE CASSIDY: You do build up the country but not so much the economy and the strength of the economy. You once said that the international investment community thinks Australia is no longer a safe place to do business? Do they really believe that, do you think that is the view of the international investment community?
TONY ABBOTT: Well if you listen to people like Jac Nasser and Marius Kloppers, who are Australia's biggest international business people, they’re saying we have a tax problem, a workplace relations problem and a false class war problem which is being fostered by the Government. DECEPTIVE TALK
BARRIE CASSIDY: But they're not saying Australia is not a safe place to do business.
TONY ABBOTT: What they are saying is that at current mineral prices and current dollar values and at current internal cost structures, you don't invest in Australia. That's what they're saying. LIE 6
BARRIE CASSIDY: If that is the view of the international investment community, what is your view? Do you think Australia is a safe place to do business?
TONY ABBOTT: Well I think if we get rid of the carbon tax, if we get rid of the mining tax, if we can bring the workplace relations pendulum back to the sensible centre, if we can cut red tape, and I want to cut $1 billion a year out of red tape cost; if we do those things, yes Australia will be a great place to do business. SLOGAN
The danger at the moment Barrie, is that the Australian moment in the Asian Century might be missed because of complacency on the part of Government. SLOGAN
BARRIE CASSIDY: But without those things, you seem to be suggesting it's not a safe place to invest, and there's a lot of evidence to the contrary.
TONY ABBOTT: Well I think there are a lot of people who have made investments on the basis of no mining tax and no carbon tax who suddenly find big problems. DECEPTIVE TALK
Take the Impex development in the Timor Sea. Over the life of the project they will pay $1 billion worth of carbon tax. Now that's a $1 billion straight off their bottom line. DECEPTIVE TALK.  SO WHAT – TAXES ALWAYS COME OFF THE BOTTOM LINE
BARRIE CASSIDY: On asylum seekers, now clearly turning back the boats will impact on our relationship with Indonesia. Why did you not discuss this issue with president Yudhoyono when you met him this week?
TONY ABBOTT: I don't talk about what I discussed with president Yudhoyono, Barrie. And this is one of the problems the Government has got; they’re more interested in making heroes of themselves in the media than building a good relationship with Indonesia. EVASIVE TALK
BARRIE CASSIDY: No but it's clear that you didn't discuss it with him. Now why did you not discuss it? Is it because you were troubled about what he might say?
TONY ABBOTT: Again, I'm not going to say what I did and didn’t discuss with the president.  EVASIVE TALK  But the fact is, if we are talking about the issue of turning boats around, it's been done before, it can be done again and ... SLOGAN
BARRIE CASSIDY: But if that's your view, why not be up front with him? I mean you’ve got an opportunity, you’re sitting across from him, why would you not raise it with him?
TONY ABBOTT: Well you shouldn't assume what was discussed ... EVASIVE TALK
BARRIE CASSIDY: My sources are pretty good. You did not raise this issue with him.
TONY ABBOTT: Well the fact is, the fact is Barrie, Indonesia knows exactly what our position is, they know exactly what our position is. DECEPTIVE TALK  They know that on day one of an incoming Coalition government the Navy will be given new orders to deal with illegal boat arrivals and with safety at sea. These are orders ... SLOGAN
BARRIE CASSIDY: They don't like that, they don't like that policy.
TONY ABBOTT: And I accept that from time to time Australia will do things that the Indonesians don't particularly like. The difference between a government I lead and the current Government is I won't be playing this for media advantage, DECEPTIVE TALK and I will try to have a no surprises policy with the Indonesians, where at least we tell them well in advance what we’ve got in mind.
BARRIE CASSIDY: A no surprises policy? You had an opportunity to talk to him about it and you didn't.
TONY ABBOTT: Well it's not as if the Indonesians are in ignorance as to what the Coalition intends. DECEPTIVE TALK
BARRIE CASSIDY: How would it work? A boat turns up on the horizon, you locate the boat, what happens then?
TONY ABBOTT: It will work the same way in the future that it's worked in the past.  SLOGAN And let's never forget Barrie, that Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard are both on the record at different times supporting the policy of turning around boats.
BARRIE CASSIDY: But how does it work though? You locate the boat as I said, you take away fuel and food or something to make it difficult for them to carry on?
TONY ABBOTT: It's the same as it worked in the past. SLOGAN
BARRIE CASSIDY: Well remind us of how that was?
TONY ABBOTT: Well I'm not going to go into those sorts of details. But the success ... EVASIVE TALK
BARRIE CASSIDY: But that's critical. I mean tell us how it works.
TONY ABBOTT: And various naval commanders have explained all this in great detail before Senate Estimates Committee and elsewhere. But it was done in the past, it can be done in the future. SLOGAN
BARRIE CASSIDY: But why can't you give us a sense of how it actually works?
TONY ABBOTT: Because you've just begun to give us a sense of that Barrie, and we've had this explained to us by the naval commanders, and I don't want to be setting myself up as a modern-day Captain Hornblower. EVASIVE TALK
BARRIE CASSIDY: Yes and one of those was Admiral Chris Barrie and he doesn't like it. He thinks it's dangerous both for the Navy and for the asylum seekers.
TONY ABBOTT: And I'm not saying this is particularly pleasant work. It is a very tough job.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Dangerous work.
TONY ABBOTT: Yes, it's dangerous work, but that's why people join our armed forces; they go into harm's way to help the country. GRATUITOUS BACKHANDER TO THE ARMED SERVICES FROM A HAIRY CHESTED ABBOTT
BARRIE CASSIDY: But you concede it as dangerous, then why go through with it?
TONY ABBOTT: Because it’s less dangerous all round than these boats taking to sea. You see, as long as the boats keep coming, the tragedies will keep happening. And the great thing about turning the boats around is that it sends the clearest possible signal to the people smugglers and their customers, the game is up. The game is up. And that's the best possible way to stop the boats. SLOGAN
BARRIE CASSIDY: I still don't see, if you take away the fuel for example, they keep going until they run out of fuel, then it’s Australia's obligation to rescue them.
TONY ABBOTT: Well as I said Barrie, it's been done in the past. SLOGAN The professionalism of the Navy was up to it in the past. I have no doubt the Navy is just as professional now as it was in 2001.
BARRIE CASSIDY: And they end up in Indonesia, which is not a signatory to the conventions. What's the difference between that and sending them to Malaysia?
TONY ABBOTT: Well they put themselves in Indonesia. A PALTRY RATIONALE
BARRIE CASSIDY: But they still end up in a country, you’re allowing them to end up in a country that is not a signatory to the convention
TONY ABBOTT: That they put themselves in. ANOTHER SLOGAN IN THE MAKING
BARRIE CASSIDY: It's their fault?
TONY ABBOTT: Well they put themselves in Indonesia. They didn't put themselves in Malaysia. SLOGAN REPEATED – WHAT’S MALAYSIA GOT TO DO WITH HIS REASONING?
BARRIE CASSIDY: Will you nominate an MP to sit on the multiparty reference group?
TONY ABBOTT: We have a policy Barrie. We don't need an external committee to tell us what our policy is. EVASIVE TALK -THAT MEANS ‘NO’
And rather than appoint new committees to tell her what the policy should be, the Prime Minister should be using the committee set up for this purpose, the Cabinet. The Cabinet is the committee that should be deciding what the Government's policy is. And what the Government should be doing is adopting a policy that it can get through the Parliament.
BARRIE CASSIDY: So it’s got nothing to do with the terms of reference, you won't be putting anybody up?
TONY ABBOTT: Well I think as a courtesy, the Prime Minister should be telling us exactly what this committee is supposed to achieve.
BARRIE CASSIDY: But what's the point? You have just said you are not interested in sitting on it.
TONY ABBOTT: The committee that should be dealing with this is the Cabinet. You see it's interesting, isn’t it Barrie, on the carbon tax Julia Gillard said she had to work with the Parliament she'd got, on mandatory pre-commitment she said she had to work with the Parliament she’d got. On company tax cuts she said she had to work with the Parliament she's got.  REPETITION, ABBOTT’S BIGGEST WEAPON
Why won’t she work with the Parliament she's got and take the offshore processing that this Parliament will approve, which is offshore processing at Nauru, PNG and 146 other countries that have signed the convention. SLOGAN
BARRIE CASSIDY: On the James Ashby, Peter Slipper matter, how have you satisfied yourself none of your colleagues have had improper contact with James Ashby?
TONY ABBOTT: Well I'm not going to go into all the conversations that I've had, but I am satisfied none of my federal parliamentary colleagues had any specific knowledge of this until they saw it in the newspaper. EVASIVE TALK
BARRIE CASSIDY: Why do you say specific? What other sort of knowledge is there?
TONY ABBOTT: Well all sorts of rumours go around the Parliament at all sorts of times of the
BARRIE CASSIDY: You all picked up on rumours.
TONY ABBOTT: Look Barrie, the important point here is: did or did not Mr Slipper sexually harass his staff member? SLOGAN
BARRIE CASSIDY: Of course that's the key point.
TONY ABBOTT: And that’s the matter before the court. Now the interesting thing Barrie, is that the judge on Friday said there had been far too much gratuitous commentary about this case. And I think the case should be left in the hands of the court to do its job. QUITE THE OPPOSITE THAT ABBOTT DID WITH THE THOMSON AFFAIR
BARRIE CASSIDY: Did you pick up on some of these rumours?
TONY ABBOTT: I think the case should now be left in the hands of the court to do its job. SLOGAN
BARRIE CASSIDY: But clearly you did, you heard rumours
TONY ABBOTT: Look, it's now in the hands of the court. REPEATED SLOGAN
BARRIE CASSIDY: You said the first time you actually knew anything of this, perhaps anything specific about this, is when you read it in the papers. But did you hear anything unofficially from journalists, from media sources?
TONY ABBOTT: Look Barrie, as I said, the place for this to be dealt with is in the court and that's where it should be. REPEATED SLOGAN  I think that Justice Rare has made a very good point. And frankly senior ministers in the Government who have been out there offering a running commentary on the case, particularly the Attorney-General, should pull their heads in.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Now the Greens and Labor are going at it, or at least some in the Labor Party are urging their colleagues to be tough on the Greens. If both sides of politics agree they are extremist, why not do a deal and both agree to put them last?
TONY ABBOTT: Well this is a real problem for the Prime Minister. I mean she did the deal with the Greens that has given us the carbon tax, because she wanted to stay in the Lodge. The deal with the Greens has also given us effectively no border protection policy and the flood of asylum boats.
Now this is a challenge to the Prime Minister's authority. Effectively, the faceless men are now saying to the Prime Minister, you got it wrong and it's up to the Prime Minister to determine whether the Greens, not two weeks before the election but now, are her friends in Government or her enemies in the electorate.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Just finally, on Clive Palmer, why did you tell him not to run in Lilley? Was it that he's too rich, too busy, too outspoken? What's the problem with Clive?
TONY ABBOTT: I don’t – I’m not in the business of giving people instructions. WHAT ABOUT INSTRUCTIONS TO TURN THE BOATS AROUND I'm delighted that so many people want to join the Coalition team.
BARRIE CASSIDY: He says you gave him instructions, you told him not to run.
TONY ABBOTT: Believe me Barrie, I don't give people those sorts of instructions. LIE 7 I'm delighted that a whole range of people want to run for us. I think it's a sign of the fact that the Coalition is doing a very good job that people want to join our team.
Look, it's up to the pre-selection panels to pick the best people.
BARRIE CASSIDY: So you're not going to try to run him out of Fairfax or run him out of Kennedy or wherever he turns up?
TONY ABBOTT: Look any member of the party, no matter how rich, how poor, no matter how busy, no matter how much time he or she might have on his hands, is welcome to put a hand up for pre-selection and the panel will do its job and pick the best candidate.
BARRIE CASSIDY: Thanks for your time this morning, appreciate it.
TONY ABBOTT: Thanks very much, Barrie.

Ad astra

July 8. 2012 09:29 PM

paul walter

And that, kiddies, is why no progress is ever made on refugees, ecology and development, indigenous affairs and other serious issues- because there is a stubborn knot of people, often in command of significant resources, who gain of the retention of the status quo and whose interests are served by divide and conquer, which is the component of the equation locked into its own status quo.
The one percent.

paul walter

July 8. 2012 09:45 PM

Cuppa

Thanks Ad Astra for providing the transcript of Barrie Cassidy's interview with Abbott.

With all the time devoted to talking about the hypothetical repealing of the "carbon tax", Barrie did not ask about the Coalition's supposed alternative policy. Now, why would that be? Surely in the context it would have been germane, if not imperative, for Barrie to say words to the effect, You say you would repeal Labor's policy, so let's get some details from you about your party's alternative policy... But no, not a mention from either host or guest of the so-called "Direct Action Plan". Which was a good thing for Abbott (if not the audience), as he wasn't put in the position of having to defend the indefensible, to justify or even explain their economically pariah "plan".

The question in my mind is: Why didn't Barrie Cassidy broach the subject of the Liberals' alternative policy? Why omit completely something so obvious and relevant?

Cuppa

July 8. 2012 09:53 PM

Truth Seeker

ToM, although I know that I am probably wasting my time, I feel compelled to reiterate the facts.
As you seem to be enamoured with the idea of TPVs, as a way of stopping the boats, all the experts, and anyone who actual thinks about them will know that rather than stopping the boats, TPVs just fill them up with the women and children that can't come in because  those granted TPVs do not have the option of family reunions.
This discussion has moved well past the philosophical, ideological or in Abbotts case the political advantage, and  is now about the saving of lives and the best way to do that. As a nation we are lessened by the current debate.
Yes, as any beauty pageant contestant will affirm, world peace is the, dream, ultimate goal, what most hope and pray for.
The reality is what we have to deal with, and to that end we should listen to those that make it their business to know what the best options are, ie; the experts, not ideologically or self motivated politicians.

Aa, the numbers that I saw were approx 1639 asylum seekers assessed and only 45 rejected, these numbers may be one or two out as I am working from memory, but they were quoted as official figures.

Truth Seeker

July 8. 2012 09:54 PM

Jason

Paul Walter,
           I guess you could always stand at the next election since you seem to think you have all the answers!

Jason

July 8. 2012 10:06 PM

DMW

Ad,
Courage in leadership is an admirable quality; it is scarcely robust enough to withstand the powerful forces pitted against leaders by their opponents and a vicious media.

A leader confident in their policy and the conviction that it is the correct policy would be robust enough to withstand whatever any opponent threw at them.

Gillard and Abbott started small and stayed there. Their present fight over asylum-seekers is emblematic of a nation that does not take its place in the region seriously enough to speak to it with a unified voice.
The irony is the politicians of White Australia's last hurrah -- Robert Menzies and Arthur Calwell -- look like visionaries with the benefit of hindsight because they didn't play politics with the non-English speaking immigrants after World War II.
Gillard and Abbott will never live down their argument at the last election when they competed not just to stop the boats, but to cut the regular intake as well.


The regional stage is no place for our leaders' petty politicking
http://goo.gl/iMKer (this link to Google, click on the artcle title displayed)

The opportunity is here, now, for the Prime Minister to prove many critics wrong, to rise above the petty politics and lead the nation to a better place in this debate.

DMW

July 8. 2012 10:19 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Ad Astra, in 20 years we haven’t had enough people arrive by boat to fill the MCG.

Estimations re that there are about 10000 people wishing to travel to Australia. How about if I say I’m willing to accept 10 times that number before I start to get bothered about your “problem”.

Your faux concern about the trauma suffered by people being sent to Nauru is just that, it’s hypocritical given your advocacy about sending all men, women and children to Malaysia, without any prospect of returning here.

You’ve avoided questions, and you are exposed as a commentator driven entirely by political interests and expedience.

Now how about you address yourself to a couple of the questions I posed.

Tom of Melbourne

July 8. 2012 10:24 PM

Tom of Melbourne

” I want to see an actual solution not the half arsed approach that we have now.”

Youcan blame your government for the half arsed approach.

you seem to be enamoured with the idea of TPVs

It’s an option, that the government refuses to consider. They are more humane than shipping people to Malaysia.

The government is driven by political expedience. The government hasn’t addressed itself to this issue.

Tom of Melbourne

July 8. 2012 10:27 PM

Psyclaw


AA

Sadly I have to take your assessment to task. The 3 bolded sections are not merely evasive. In the first bolded bit he tries to avoid. In the second, he "suggests" that he did raise the issue. In the third he tries to justify the lie.

BARRIE CASSIDY: On asylum seekers, now clearly turning back the boats will impact on our relationship with Indonesia. Why did you not discuss this issue with president Yudhoyono when you met him this week?
TONY ABBOTT: I don't talk about what I discussed with president Yudhoyono, Barrie. And this is one of the problems the Government has got; they’re more interested in making heroes of themselves in the media than building a good relationship with Indonesia. EVASIVE TALK

BARRIE CASSIDY: But if that's your view, why not be up front with him? I mean you’ve got an opportunity, you’re sitting across from him, why would you not raise it with him?
TONY ABBOTT: Well you shouldn't assume what was discussed

BARRIE CASSIDY: My sources are pretty good. You did not raise this issue with him.
TONY ABBOTT: Well the fact is, the fact is Barrie, Indonesia knows exactly what our position is, they know exactly what our position is.


But in this bit AA the shifty, unsettled involuntary movement of his eyes confirm the lie. You got it right, here.This is manifest on my replay, even with the audio turned off.

TONY ABBOTT: Believe me Barrie, I don't give people those sorts of instructions.

Psyclaw

July 8. 2012 10:33 PM

Psyclaw


I think it is quite inaccurate to place Marilyn in the same category of that one from the southern capital.

Unlike him, Marilyn does good research, is knowledgeable, provides facts and handles the truth with due care.

She does not always come to the same conclusions I do, but c'est la vie.

Psyclaw

July 8. 2012 10:58 PM

BSA Bob

. And this is one of the problems the Government has got; they’re more interested in making heroes of themselves in the media than building a good relationship with Indonesia. EVASIVE TALK

A transcript is necessary to really highlight the Goebbels principle Abbott uses so often. Abbott accusing others of what he himself is doing.

BSA Bob

July 8. 2012 11:08 PM

DMW

Some facts I was unaware of until tweeted tonight

ASRC ‏@ASRC1
Just 452 #refugees settled from Indonesia to Australia btn 2001-9. Call that regional co-operation?

ASRC ‏@ASRC1
Annual intake of #refugees from Indonesia by Australia cut by 40% this yr, another way Gillard forces people onto boats

ASRC = Asylum Seeker Resource Centre http://www.asrc.org.au/

DMW

July 8. 2012 11:11 PM

paul walter

Psyclaw reminds me, the most stupid aspect of all, sending eight hundred people to Malaysia to be processed when it could be done here, and expensive.
Shows just how wanky it's all become.
Btw the comment on Marilyn was what
I'd call dead right, yes she has far more credibility than several others posting here, either mean spirited or sanctimonious.

paul walter

July 8. 2012 11:36 PM

Von Kirsdarke

Nice article, AA.

Asylum seekers is something that I'm conflicted on. It's a big problem that needs a well thought out solution. I don't think the Malaysia solution is as terrible as some people say, I'm friends with someone from Malaysia and she says that it's not really that bad of a place, it's improving rapidly along with the rest of southeast Asia. I do think that we need to figure something out with Indonesia for a better solution though.

However, one thing I'm certain of is that Abbott's plan to use the navy is disgusting. He not only plans to jeopardise our relationship with Indonesia and go very close to the line of breaking human rights and international laws, but wants to turn Australia's maritime defence forces into national border bouncers to keep out undesirables.

This is unforgivable, and damn those journalists that refuse to give him scrutiny over this madness.

Von Kirsdarke

July 9. 2012 04:45 AM

Marilyn

You ask the wrong questions, who do we think we are to believe we can have a limit on refugees asking for help?  Do we have a limit on the number of tourists who arrive here every year or do we beg for more?

Everyone has the right to seek asylum and here is a newsflash - if the 13 million people who arrive here every year want to claim refugee status we have to let them.

What if Pakistan started sending home Afghans because there are too many?  Wait, they are which is why more Afghans are seeking asylum in the west.

Try with your shrivelled imaganation Astra to put yourself in the shoes of an Afghan who has had a lifetime of war.

So many here seem to think it's just a matter of us being as vicious as the taliban and the Afghans will stay home, but we pretend to be a nation that observes human rights.

Many who come here to seek asylum have been in exile for years on end, some have been kicked out of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Malaysia, Indonesia and we want to kick them out to and play human trading ping pong around the world.

Under the law we have zero choice about allowing asylum seekers into the country and we cannot and do not have a quota for asylum seekers.

And as 75% of all asylum seekers fly here just what is it you are whining about?  35,000 people in 35 years arriving by sea.

Spare me the stupid questions, they have been asked so many times by whining scared old men I have lost count.

What are you?   A chicken coward terrified of a few thousand refugees?

Because the thing is we don't own the countries we want to dump human beings in so we can expect those countries to return the favour.

Or is racist whiney Australia so precious and superior we think we can do whatever we like and bugger the law and human rights.

None of you bothered to find out the facts, do that and get back to me.

Marilyn

July 9. 2012 04:52 AM

Marilyn

The refugee convention is domestic law and has been for 20 years.

ri
www.austlii.edu.au/.../1009.html?query=al%20mas



“60 In any event, while it is literally correct to describe the applicant as an "unlawful" entrant and an "unlawful non-citizen" that is not a complete description of his position. The nomenclature adopted under the Act provides for the description of persons as "uinlawful non-citizens" because they arrived in Australia without a visa. This does not fully explain their status in Australian law as such persons are on-shore applicants for protection visas on the basis that they are refugees under the Refugees Convention.
61 The Refugees Convention is a part of conventional international law that has been given legislative effect in Australia: see ss 36 and 65 of the Act. It has always been fundamental to the operation of the Refugees Convention that many applicants for refugee status will, of necessity, have left their countries of nationality unlawfully and therefore, of necessity, will have entered the country in which they seek asylum unlawfully. Jews seeking refuge from war-torn Europe, Tutsis seeking refuge from Rwanda, Kurds seeking refuge from Iraq, Hazaras seeking refuge from the Taliban in Afghanistan and many others, may also be called "unlawful non-citizens" in the countries in which they seek asylum. Such a description, however, conceals, rather than reveals, their lawful entitlement under conventional international law since the early 1950's (which has been enacted into Australian law) to claim refugee status as persons who are "unlawfully" in the country in which the asylum application is made.
62 The Refugees Convention implicitly requires that, generally, the signatory countries process applications for refugee status of on-shore applicants irrespective of the legality of their arrival, or continued presence, in that country: see Art 31. That right is not only conferred upon them under international law but is also recognised by the Act (see s 36) and the Migration Regulations 1994 (Cth) which do not require lawful arrival or presence as a criterion for a protection visa. If the position were otherwise many of the protection obligations undertaken by signatories to the Refugees Convention, including Australia, would be undermined and ultimately rendered nugatory.
63 Notwithstanding that the applicant is an "unlawful non-citizen" under the Act who entered Australia unlawfully and has had his application for a protection visa refused, in making that application he was exercising a "right" conferred upon him under Australian law.”
Now those four paragraphs make the law pretty clear and that was upheld by three more judges in the Full Court of the Federal court in April 2003 after Akram had been deported.

So far so good on the “unlawful” = “illegal” story.

So let’s wander off to the High Court appeal which became Behrooz, Al Kateb and Al Khafaji and have a look at the meaning of “unlawful”.


GUMMOW J: What is the baggage of the word “unlawful”?
MR BENNETT: Your Honour, none. It is a word used in a definition provisiwww.austlii.edu.au/.../456.html?query=behroozon, it is simply a defined phrase. It is not a phrase which necessarily involves the commission of a criminal offence.

www.austlii.edu.au/.../458.html?query=behrooz

“GUMMOW J: What is the force of the word “unlawful”?
MR BENNETT: It is merely a word which is used in a definition section, your Honour.
GLEESON CJ: Does it mean without lawful permission?
MR BENNETT: Yes, that is perhaps the best way of paraphrasing - - -
GUMMOW J: But in the Austinian sense that is meaningless, is it not?
MR BENNETT: Yes, your Honour. The draftsperson of the Act is not necessarily taken to be familiar with the - - -
GUMMOW J: Well, perhaps they ought to be.”
Wow, so the word unlawful is legally meaningless.

Who would have thought.  But wait it get’s better.

www.austlii.edu.au/.../37.html?query=al%20kateb

Here is the actual judgement.   Paragraph 86 is there for all the world to see.
“From 1901 to 1994, federal law contained offence provisions respecting unlawful entry and presence in Australia, which was punishable by imprisonment as well as by liability to deportation. The legislation gave rise to various questions of construction which reached this Court[90]. The first of these provisions was made by the Immigration Restriction Act 1901 (Cth) ("the 1901 Act")[91]. Section 7 thereof stated:
"Every prohibited immigrant entering or found within the Commonwealth in contravention or evasion of this Act shall be guilty of an offence against this Act, and shall be liable upon summary conviction to imprisonment for not more than six months, and in addition to or substitution for such imprisonment shall be liable pursuant to any order of the Minister to be deported from the Commonwealth.
Provided that the imprisonment shall cease for the purpose of deportation, or if the offender finds two approved sureties each in the sum of Fifty pounds for his leaving the Commonwealth within one month."
As enacted in 1958, s 27 of the Act continued this pattern. That provision eventually became s 77 of the Act, but this was repealed by s 17 of the Migration Reform Act 1992 (Cth) ("the 1992 Act"). It has not been replaced[92].”
Want a bit of icing on the cake, all of which I sent to the editors of the Australian, the Press Council and Media Watch.

www.austlii.edu.au/.../1267.html?query=hamdan
“30 It is important to emphasise that the client did not escape from custody. It would have been an offence for him to have done so: see 197A of the Act. He was released from detention pursuant to a court order. Neither was he committing or proposing to commit an offence simply because he was taking steps to avoid being detained. As Gummow J indicated in Al-Kateb at [86] ff, the current Migration Act, unlike its precursors, does not make it an offence for an unlawful non-citizen to enter or to be within Australia in contravention of, or in evasion of, the Act.
31 Further, as Hayne J observed in Al-Kateb at [207]-[208] the description of a person’s immigration status as "unlawful" serves as no more than a reference to a non-citizen not having a "valid permission to enter and remain in Australia". The use of the term "unlawful" does not as such refer to a breach of a law.”
.


http://sievx.com/articles/sentences/dirlist.php



If you read these cases you will note:
“As has been observed in relation to other cases of this kind, the prisoners were not involved in a 'people-smuggling' exercise. There was nothing covert about either operation. They were transporting the non-citizens to Australia for presentation to Australian authorities. There was no attempt to hide from the authorities or to disguise what they had done”.
This is why we really locked up a few hundred poor schmuck Indonesian fishermen and if it was challenged in the High court I reckon all the cases would have been dismissed because we locked people up for things they could not have known.
“These are serious offences because the Australian Parliament has said the Australian Government has the right to control immigration into Australia in any way it chooses to do so. Australia has agreed to take a large number of refugees from other countries each year. This has to be done in an orderly way. The bringing to Australia of illegal immigrants avoids having these people go through the proper channels. This costs the Australian Government a lot of money and may well have the effect of causing other

Marilyn

July 9. 2012 07:35 AM

Lyn

TODAY’S LINKS

Four Questions for Tony Abbott, Victoria Rollison
Abbott skirts this issue of wealth redistribution like a slippery worm. He worries about the profits that go to offshore owners of mining companies, rich shareholders and of course Gina and Clive, more than he cares about average Australians being rewarded for the massive wealth that comes from the natural resources that we all own. Enough is enough Tony. Whose side are you on?
victoriarollison.com/.../

The Catholic Connection , Frances Jones
Broken Rites Australia was formed in 1992. Since then, Broken Rites has researched more than 120 Catholic priests and brothers who have been sentenced in Australian court cases in which Broken Rites has had an involvement. These 120 court cases are on the top half of our
francesjones.wordpress.com/.../

Father of Mine, Wixxy, Wixxy Leaks
You see, this $800,000 warehouse near Sydney Airport was used as Studio 19, a rehearsal studio. Funnily enough, the person running the studio goes by the name of Chris, or Christopher Williamson, also known as the C in Canme Services. The members will be pleased to know however, that Michael didn’t overcharge his son Chris on the rent. A
wixxy.wordpress.com/2012/07/06/father-of-mine-2/
  
Actions Unconscionable, Sal Piracha ,Only The Depth Varies
The answer from Tony Abbott is, as usual, a flat 'no'. As the Prime Minister has allowed Labor MPs a conscience vote, it's unlikely that the current same sex marriage bills would succeed; the ALP members may cross the floor, and the Liberals may not. Turnbull, and probably others, will be required to vote against theirconsciences.
http://onlythedepthvaries.blogspot.com.au/

Jacksonville 15: Welcome to Williamson, Peter Wicks, Independent Australia
Michael Williamson was elected to the position of State Secretary of the Association, then known as the Health and Research Employees Association of NSW, in 1995. Whilst there, the rules changed and he became General Secretary. In 2003, a decision was made to adopt a new logo and change the name of the union to the Health Services Union.
www.independentaustralia.net/.../

ABBOTT LOOKS ACROSS THE DITCH AND TRIES TO DRAG US INTO IT, Penny Wong
In another example of his economic incoherence, Tony Abbott says he wants Australia to be more like New Zealand, which has higher unemployment, higher spending and lower economic growth.
www.pennywong.com.au/.../

Mungo MacCallum- Refugee boats stuck in too hard basket, Hinterland Times
This, like all of Abbott’s simplifications, is not entirely true. There is ample evidence that the Temporary Protection Visas, with their ban on family reunion, actually led to more women and children accompanying their husbands on the boats, with consequent loss of life. But even if they did play a part in easing the flow of boats, that was then and this is now.
www.hinterlandtimes.com.au/.../

Tony Abbott promises a return to the centre with Work Choices version 2 – if that is centre, what do the LNP consider extreme, Turn Left 2013
Now he has predicted a return of SerfChoices:Tony Abbott said on Saturday: The carbon tax will go, the mining tax will go, workplace relations will return to the sensible centre, we’ll cut a billion dollars a year from business red tape.
turnleft2013.wordpress.com/.../tony-abbott-promises-a-return-to-the-centre-with-work-choices-version-2-if-that-is-centre

Tony Abbott will never be Prime Minister, Miglo, Café Whispers
I’ve scrolled through our pages and randomly selected a handful of gems from the hundreds that have graced our site that sum up why I hope Tony Abbott will never be Prime Minister.
cafewhispers.wordpress.com/.../

Don’t be surprised – Greens are not ALP’s natural ally, Dragonistas Blog
The ALP isn’t trying to win progressive votes from the Greens, they’re trying to win the middle class, middle income voters who are parked with the Libs but are uneasy about Abbott. They’re also trying to win progressive voters parked with the other/independent category who find the Greens too extreme.
dragonistasblog.com/.../

ABC News 24 reckons you should speak English, ABC Has Gone To Hell
But to make matters worse the ABC decided to cut off their coverage of the President and switch to a rugby match instead! They could not even give the guest of honour, the President of Indonesia, the courtesy and respect of airing his speech. The minority of viewers
www.abcgonetohell.net/.../abc-news-24-reckons-you-should-speak-english

The Free Market; Maggots and Tapeworms, Archie, Archiearchives
So everything became free. And everyone had a vote. And of course the Market had to be free as well. Please don’t ask me why, it just had to be. Everyone still had to pay taxes. To
themselves, of course since it was all democratic. Even your
archiearchive.wordpress.com/.../

Fear Mongers Belittle Politics And Humanity, Dragonista, The Kings Tribune
And with information we can learn, for example, that there is no queue and that asylum seekers are fleeing persecution or war; that we are all polluters and must each play our part in tackling climate change; that our predisposition for conflict and sensationalism has encouraged shock jocks and other tabloid media; that skilled workers
www.kingstribune.com/.../1534-fear-mongers-belittle-politics-and-humanity

Carbon tax or evil gouging , Donna Kelly, The Fifth Estate
Debate is raging on whether the carbon tax is causing the cost of refrigerants to soar, or whether refrigerant companies are using the opportunity to hike up their prices.
Federal Industry opposition spokeswoman Sophie Mirabella blames the carbon tax
http://www.thefifthestate.com.au/archives/36283

Australia’s carbon tax – dispelling the scare campaign against it. Christina MacPherson, Antinuclear
the great tragedy of this is the groups behind this ludicrous scare campaign – the Minerals Council of Australia, the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, the Australian Coal Association, and the Housing Industry Association – will never be brought to justice for the misleading conduct they’ve engaged in over the last two years.
antinuclear.net/.../

Labor wakes up to the Greens, Climate Nonconformist
Since the minority government was formed, the Greens have continually dragged Labor down. Paul Howes outlines how they did it. They have got away with their grab-bag of loopy and out-there policies for years. They’ve got away with it by being passed
climatenonconformist.wordpress.com/.../

LADIES MAN: Tony Abbott boning up on nipple clamps, spanking, kink & domination to get inside the female mind, Oz Politic.Com
There seems to be no limit to Tony Abbott’s commitment to women, reports a Sunday newspaper that probably won’t be around next year to see him elected our nation’s leader. They report him admitting to
www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1341695892

The End of the Party? Labor's History and the Rise of the Greens , Modernising Labor
For more than a century, Labor has been pushed and pulled between forces of electoralism and those of ideology both within and outside the Party. However, in the long run, the ALP has always responded to bouts of ideological extremism that threatened its long term viability by successfully reaffirming its commitment to electoralism. modernisinglabor.blogspot.com.au/.../...y-can.html

The Size of Government in Australia, Stephen Koukoulas, Market Economics
Not once did the Howard or Fraser governments in about 20 years in office achieve a single year where government spending was cut in real terms, while Labor governments have been able to cut real spending in five years since the mid-1980s. Viewed another way, the 2012-13 budget will see the ratio of government spending to gross domestic product fall to 23.5 per cent.
www.marketeconomics.com.au/2115-the-size-of-government-in-australia

The Age Economic Survey. They're optimistic, Peter Martin
Australia is set to do it again. BusinessDay's half-yearly economic survey has found our private sector economists believe the country will grind its way through the 2012-13 financial year to record solid growth, despite risks of Europe's problems deadening the world economy
www.petermartin.com.au/.../...eyre-optimistic.html

Carbon Pricing in Australia: Lessons for the United States, Brookings
How Australia fares in reducing its GHG emissions and at what cost will only become clear over time. But certainly the challenges for Australia will be no less than what the U.S. will face should it decide to price carbon and aim for similarly ambitious GHG mitigation targets. These reasons alone recommend close U.S. attention to Australia’s experience
www.brookings.edu/.../02-carbon-australia-meltzer

Australia doesn’t need the NBN, says Abbott, Renai LeMay, Delimiter
Right now  the greatest problem of Shadow Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull is keeping the other senior politicians in his party quiet when it comes to the NBN. Abbott, Joe Hockey, Andrew Robb, Warren Truss … every time these Coalition figures talk about the NBN they put their foot in their mouth
delimiter.com.au/.../

The Wall Street Scandal of All Scandals, Robert Reich, The Huffington Post
Libor is the benchmark for trillions of dollars of loans worldwide -- mortgage loans, small business loans, personal loans. It's compiled by averaging the rates at which the major banks say they borrow.So far, the scandal has been limited to Barclay's, a big London-based
www.huffingtonpost.com/.../...treet_b_1656665.html

Scientists Generate Electricity from Viruses
Imagine charging your phone as you walk, thanks to a paper-thin generator embedded in the sole of your shoe. This futuristic scenario is now a little closer to reality. Scientists from the U.S. Department of Energy’s Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) have developed a way to generate power using harmless viruses that convert mechanical energy into electricity.
www.sciencedaily.com/.../120513144619.htm

Tony Abbott and Scott Morrison - caught out telling lies and fudging figures for Nauru
This video highlights the lies and distortions from both Tony Abbott and Scott Morrison on reopening Nauru.Not only have they lied about the cost of reopening Nauru, but they've lied about the time that it would take to open it up again.
www.youtube.com/watch

Today’s Front Pages
Australia Newspaper Front Pages for 9 July
www.frontpagestoday.co.uk/index.cfm

Lyn

July 9. 2012 08:04 AM

2353

AA,

In response toyour question last night, my response was in my original post Regardless of "deterrent effects", "quotas", "regional processing plans" or any other scheme - it is human nature to desire a better life for yourself and your family  It is my opinion that the thing that will "stop the boats" in the end will be that the standard of living of those who live in the areas to the north west of Australia will rise to a sufficient level so that those that currently would consider attempting to get to Australia deem that the risks outweigh the benefits.

Keating's Redfern speech (courtesy of DMW) says This is a fundamental test of our social goals and our national will: our ability to say to ourselves and to the rest of the world that Australia is a first rate social democracy, that we are what we should be – truly the land of a fair go and the better chance.

DMW suggests Our current government and Prime Minister could turn this debate around if they dared to look beyond petty partisan poo throwing and laid out the challenges the world is facing with the ever increasing numbers of displaced persons and that we have a responsibility to accept refugees as well as a responsibility  to work positively in our region to assist other countries with the far greater problems with even bigger numbers of displaced persons landing on and living within their shores.

Through adversity arises opportunity and if Ms Gillard has the guts to rise above the fray and the petty politics and lead us to a better place in this debate we could all win. If they did so we could prove again that we are a first rate social democracy, that we are what we should be – truly the land of a fair go and the better chance.

I agree completely.  Whitlam and Fraser in the 70's could bring the country around to accepting refugees from a country where Australia was on the losing side of a war less than 5 years previously (and co-incidentally is now a "hot" tourist destination).  So whats wrong with Howard, Beasley, Rudd, Gillard, Milne and Abbott - why can't they communicate to the Australian public that humanity outweighs political grandstanding?

The media reports that the majority of refugees to Australia come from Iraq, Afganistan and Sri Lanka.  In the case of the first two, Australia was an agressor (remember Bush calling Howard a "Man of Steel"), in Sri Lanka's case, Australia sat on its hands for years and did nothing meaningful despite it being common knowledge there was a civil war in progress.  Refugees are our "problem" as we assisted in the creation of the "problem".  I'm not getting suckered into a discussion on numbers, where, when and so on - we need to address the real issue here.  There are millions of people around the world seeking refugee status on a weekly basis, in the scheme of things those that get to Australia are numerically akin to the pimple on the backside of the worldwide "problem",

2353

July 9. 2012 08:46 AM

Ad astra

LYN'S DAILY LINKS updated: www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...-DAILY-LINKS.aspx

Ad astra

July 9. 2012 09:58 AM

Psyclaw


Truth Seeker @9.53pm

ToM, although I know that I am probably wasting my time

Nearly correct. Just one word too many. Number 8!

Psyclaw

July 9. 2012 10:18 AM

Psyclaw


Marilyn

Thanks for your references .... some interesting reading.

It is important to note that your quotes about the Behrooz case are obiter dicta. They are not part of the judgemnet and as you probably know have the legal status of being judges' musings or thought bubbles or discussion stimulators.

In the end, the HC found against Mr Behrooz. The essence was that the Act had been redefined not to say that ASs in Aussie waters were unlawful but that detention of ASs was lawful and escape from detention was unlawful.

Here's the full judgement from the following year.

www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/HCA/2004/36.html

There is another aspect IMHO ..... the circumstances at the turn of the century were quite different to now. I agree that people smugglers were a relatively few rank amateurs then ...... disorganised but in all likelihood a bit more customer focussed than now, and probably providing a safer service than now.

I think the evidence now is that they are a big enterprise, organised, callous, ruthless, unconscionable and have one focus only. Get as many $10Ks pp as they can, put them in any vessel and shove them off shore. The more the merrier. Strike while the iron's hot. Pluck the fruit while the tree is still available.

With such a business model, drownings are highly likely to continue in big numbers ..... too big to just say "well really, not many drown in the big picture of refugees."

Nevertheless I am interested to hear more of your arguments.

Cheers

Psyclaw

July 9. 2012 11:41 AM

Lyn

Good Morning Ad and Everybody

Twitterverse:-

Margaret‏
My response also wordforword : This is Bickford's response to my complaint over there involvement in http://pic.twitter.com/l6Lei3Sn

View photoHide photo

The Australian‏
Carbon blame for burial hike 'an error': A CEMETERY has admitted it was a mistake to blame the carbon tax for an... http://bit.ly/NAjkfs
The Opposition and some funeral industry figures have previously suggested cremation prices would rise due to the carbon tax, a claim refuted by the Gillard government

TAWNBPM‏
The Daily terror screamed, on front page this am: " DEATH TAX" The Age has covered the real story. A Melbourne... http://fb.me/NviayqbF

Mulgabob‏
The only one putting the dirt in is Simon Benson @dailytelegraphwww.dailytelegraph.com.au/.../story-e6freuy9-1226420545281 #auspol

Phillip Coorey‏
my column today. Softly-softly a better approach to Indonesia rather than turn back boats. www.smh.com.au/.../...onesians-20120708-21p9f.html

vexnews‏
Queensland joins mining tax High Court challenge initiated by Fortescue Metals #qldpol #auspol http://bit.ly/Nei4Ad

Janice Gill‏
Abbott admits he heard Slipper rumours http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/-21ph9.html

TAWNBPM‏
"THE Opposition Leader, Tony Abbott, has, for the first time, said he was aware rumours had circulated in... http://fb.me/1TIoh3Rl1

Mulgabob‏
Springvale Cemetery denies $55 carbon tax charge | 3AW Breakfast | www.3aw.com.au/.../20120709-21q3m.html #auspol

Stunt Spud‏@SpudBenBean
I disagree with the first paragraph here www.nationaltimes.com.au/.../...0120708-21ph9.html Abbott DIDN'T confirm the rumours were abt Slipper's CONDUCT. #insiders

Mike Kelly MP‏
Mining tax leads other resource-rich nations to follow suit. So where is our risk?| The Australian http://bit.ly/Mbb1uz

David Paul Jobling‏
Want to hang out with the Prime Minister? Here's how www.theage.com.au/.../...s-how-20120630-219g5.html via @theage #Yesplease #JuliaGillard #OurSay #Hope

Kate Carruthers‏
some good advice from @catrionapollard: The power of a blog connects readers & businesses http://kcar.me/RJisYy via @SMH

couriermail.com.au‏
Qld to join court fight against mining tax http://goo.gl/fb/S3MJz

Stephen Mayne‏
Great Mumble on unethical ALP Right thugs. Should have added Labor is preferencing Family First before Greens in Melb: blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/.../

Lyn

July 9. 2012 11:57 AM

archiearchive

I hadn't read this extremely good post yesterday and so coincidence reigns. Following Tony Abbott's sit-down with Barrie Cassidy and a partially drunken tweet-storm last night in which I conflated Capn' Hornblower, The Pirate King and Tony Abbott, I spent a sleepless night. Again. Worrying over the implications at 3am.

This morning I sat and wrote stuff in which I tried to clarify the consequences of Tony Abbott's stated policies on Asylum Seekers.

I don't know if you will find it interesting but it is here.

archiearchive.wordpress.com/.../

archiearchive

July 9. 2012 11:59 AM

2353

Anyone else notice the Rudd vs Gillard speculation started again on the weekend.  It seems to have died an early death this time as The Australian's banners outside newsagents this morning is alluding to a split between the ALP & the Greens.

Wonder if the Rudd/Gillard thing is now so obvious, even the media don't believe it when it's trotted out yet again or have the ALP found another way to shoot themselves in the foot after the comments by the NSW State Secretary over the weekend?

2353

July 9. 2012 12:33 PM

Ad astra

Folks
This piece has evoked strong emotions.  Reading through the comments, I see a lot of concern for refugees and their awful plight.  Many of you have expressed a willingness to embrace them, and castigate our leaders for not doing so to the extent you believe they should.  You criticize their handling of asylum seekers.  You call for ‘leadership’, along the lines exhibited by Paul Keating in his Redfern address, something you see sadly lacking among our current leaders.  Many who come here would agree with those sentiments.  I see no anti-refugee feeling among the comments.  I see no one arguing that seeking asylum is illegal.  We know it is not.

Given the level of agreement that seems to unite many who comment here, I wonder why emotive comments are made.  Why is it necessary to use pejorative terms such as ‘shriveled imagination’, ‘chicken coward’, and ‘whining scared old men’?  Will such insults advance understanding and consensus?

The contemporary debate was precipitated by the recent loss of asylum seeker lives at sea from fishing boats that were overwhelmed by tumultuous seas. While there may be some who don’t care, I feel confident that people who comment here are deeply distressed by this loss of life.  So, an important question is how this loss of men, women, and children can be avoided.  It was addressed early in this piece after the introductory comments.

Yet there are but a few comments about how these maritime tragedies might be averted.  Marilyn said that ‘boats are not that dangerous’ and will ‘keep coming’; tincan suggested setting up efficient regional processing in Indonesia; Psyclaw said the rate of drownings had changed the game.  2353 urged a compromise to avoid further drownings, and said that raising the standard of living in areas from which refugees come will stop the boats. jaycee noted the ‘regional solution’ is to stop people getting on boats, and ToM answered some questions about boats that I posed.  Truth Seeker disputed whether TPVs would stop people getting on boats, and argued that the opposite was more likely.  That is all I could find about ‘stopping the boats’.  I’m sure you will correct me if I have missed any further suggestions about how to do so.

The other aspect that has attracted attention is that of numbers.  I heard last night on ABC Melbourne radio that there are 43 million displaced persons and 15 million refugees in the world today, figures that paint the dimensions of the problem.  Yet, I sense that some of you are downplaying the numbers issue, and suggesting that there ought to be no limit to how many we admit to this country.  Doesn’t this idealistic approach need to be tempered by how larger and larger numbers of arrivals can be managed?  If we had literally open borders with no limits, how many could be housed, fed, employed, educated, and cared for by our health and social welfare system which taxpayers fund?  There must be a limit as Australia’s resources are not limitless.  It may well be that we can take many, many more than at present, that we can process them quickly and get them here safely, that we can integrate them well, but where do we draw the line and say we cannot receive any more and do justice by them?

In my view, no matter how idealistic one feels, no matter how much sympathy wells up in one’s breast, it is unrealistic to advocate open borders without limits.  Yet when I ask how many you think we could reasonably accommodate, I not only get no takers, but am also rebuked for asking ‘stupid questions’.  These questions are not stupid; they are ones our nation must answer if it is to better manage the asylum seeker issue.  Try putting yourself in the decision making position of our leaders.  No matter how fine their oratory, no matter how influential their words in changing community attitudes for the better, they still must manage the logistics.

So let’s have some practical suggestions as to how we can fulfill the aims and wishes of the most idealistic of those who comment here, within the limits of our nation’s resources.

Ad astra

July 9. 2012 12:40 PM

Ad astra

archiearchive
Thank you for your kind comment.  I enjoyed reading your piece.  At least you had a shot at posing a solution.

Ad astra

July 9. 2012 12:48 PM

grannie

I  wrote  my bid  and  lost  it  as  the  capichars   are  hard  to  reas   i am  hearing  impaired  als
Ad  astra   the  speaking  is  not  clear

Try  again
can  udo a  piece  on  whsmay  happen  if  abbott goes  turning  back  boats
No one in  the  gov  seems  to  wa t to go  tbere,    if  it got  out  of  hand  and  if  u  get   my meaning   would  it  bee seen  as  agression, by  others.i cannot  beleive  this  is our  cou try

Surlley big  busi has  have  had enough of  abbott  re trade  in  indonesia  and  asia
Have  read   there  is  aust. Minning interests in  these  areas
Typing   on  tablet



The  rudd thing    annoys  the  ,,,,,,,,out of  me    have  lost  respect  for  him  
newspoll weekend to
Typing   on  tablet    sorry about typos .

grannie

July 9. 2012 12:50 PM

Ad astra

Hi Lyn
Thanks for the interesting Twitterverse.  I see Tony Abbott’s evasion of questions about his pre-knowledge of the Slipper affair have caught up with him.

Ad astra

July 9. 2012 01:52 PM

Gravel

Ad Astra

Another very interesting and challenging post.  I agree totally with your second last paragraph.  I thought when it was proposed at the time that it was something that is/was worthwhile trying, most especially so now with these recent drownings.  It is the drownings I would like to see being dealt with.

At 12.33pm you then asked about the numbers of Asylum Seekers that would be acceptable.  To me, the 4000 for 800 deal sounds good with the possibility of that being extended.  I also recall something about Thailand being interested in the same Malaysian deal.

Again, with my total disappointment in the Greens knocking back the Oakshott Bill, I get really frustrated in recalling their outrage at Rudd's "Big Australia" statement.  They screamed what about the environment, ecology, food, land........but now they want almost 'open borders'.  

I agree with our Prime Minister, take the politics out of it, work together so that there are wtte 'no winners, no losers, only a reasonable solution'.

Gravel

July 9. 2012 02:01 PM

grannie

Ad  astra   re  caught  up  with   him  ,  i use to  blogg on  p b and  the  institance  that every  dash pol has  pride of  place and    talking  nothing  but  rudd  and  trolls  everywhere   , given  up.
So  i have  not  caught  up  with     abbott  being  caught  up with  re  slipper
May bei can  find  the  tweet   having wondered around  all the  good    bloggs  have  found some  amazing  stuff   re  abbott  this  morning  o  for it to  be out  there  for the  community.

grannie

July 9. 2012 03:01 PM

Lyn

Hi Ad

At last I am here to say thankyou for your splendid article on the contentious issue of Asylum Seekers and their leaky boats. You have worked hard and long to produce so many words comparing and abandoning various commentators.

It really is a very controversial subject isn't it with many different points of view. I  don't want to present my point of view because my words would involve Mr Abbott and I might get banned from TPS.

Some Asylum Seeker information:

UN push on refugee effort, Michael Gordon, SMH
Opposition Leader Tony Abbott announced this week that he would ask the UNHCR to supervise its planned centre on Nauru, but Ms Feller said she could not commit the agency to be involved ''in the abstract''. The agency considered Nauru problematic under the Pacific Solution and now that the country had signed the refugee convention ''wouldn't automatically change our position''.
www.smh.com.au/.../...e-effort-20120629-218as.html

Craig Emerson MP‏
Rewriting history. Previous Coalition Government needed Labor Opposition legislative support on asylum seeker issue &amp; got it.


Below is a Government link please click on it now to find out if your computer is at risk:-

The Today Show‏ CHANNEL 9
Here is the website to see if your computer is infected with the virus expected to hit today. http://dns-ok.gov.au #today9

This temporary solution was switched off at 2pm AEST on 9 July 2012.
In most cases,

if you have managed to load this webpage after this date, you are very unlikely to be affected by DNSChanger,

as you would have been unable to load the webpage if you were affected.

However, there are some potential circumstances in which you may be still affected by DNSChanger, as described below
http://dns-ok.gov.au/

Lyn

July 9. 2012 03:56 PM

Marilyn

But what do our natural resources have to do with refugees?  13 million people come here every year without us whining about natural resources, they don't have to bring their own water or food so why conflate the fact that a few thousand of the world's 43 million displaced manage to come here?   What does that have to do with anything?

The reality is that over 80% of those displaced people subsist in the third world while the rich world spend billions a year trying to keep them out.

Which part of everyone has the right to seek asylum really means that alone in the world Australia gets to set a tiny quota of who they will help?

But let's look at some numbers you might be interested in.

1.  refugee prisons in Australia last year - $1.2 billion or an average of $137,000 per annum per refugee with most of the profit going to SERCO to keep refugees out of our sights and minds while they torture them with small daily brutalities.
2.  aid to the UNHCR to assist the 43 million displaced people - $30 million with extra to Africa during the drought.
3.  armed forces in Afghanistan achieving nothing at all $1.5 billion a year, aid to 33 million Afghans $120 million or $3.64 per person per annum which will increase to about $7 per person per annum.   On 31 May there were 1993 Afghans in refugee prisons, including 50 kids, at the cost of $137,000 per annum each or $270 million per annum.

How are we liking these number so far?

Now to have the Afghans living in the community it is $300 per week each.  Or $31 million.  What if we did that and gave the $240 million in savings to the Afghan men, women and children who are dying of starvation on the $7 per person in aid.  Even the $4 billion per annum pledged in Tokyo is just old money re-announced and amounts to $133 per person per annum.

All this deranged expense is just because we refuse to allow Afghans to get visas to come to Australia because of the threat that they will seek our protection from horrors like the excecution of that woman last week that Bob Carr bemoans - that woman under ALP would have been flogged off to Malaysia, jailed and tortured at our expense of $340,000 per annum in Malaysia and then deported at our expense back to Afghanistan to be shot again.

Under the international smuggling laws we signed onto seeking asylum is strictly exempt because the transport providers are not doing anything illegal in any country and they are not forcing refugees to use the transport, it is the other way around and always has been.  How on earth Australian politicians came up with the delusion that refugees have to be recruited by transport operators to leave war zones is beyond me but they have done it and sold it as a fact.

It costs $137,000 per annum to keep the Indonesian fishing crews in prison and $250,000 for the trials - that should stop now the Supreme court of Victoria and the Indonesian governments have said the goverment have to prove they know they are coming to Australia.

Last year we wasted over $200 million jailing destitute Indonesian fisher kids and men while their families starved.

And in the case of Behrooz I was at his final court case for his escape and it was thrown out and he was awarded $1000 in costs.

Marilyn

July 9. 2012 04:58 PM

LadyInRed

There really is no nice way to tell people they are not welcome. And no matter which solution we adopt, whether it be onshore, offshore, or a much more liberal policy that increases our intake to 20,000, there are always going to be people who want to try their luck.

I think we are most likely always going to have to have some sort of cutoff point. Being an island that is so isolated has meant that we can control our boarders better than other counties. I believe that once again we are the envy of other countries that do not have isolation on their side. Also, we are a secular country so we do not feel any religious presure to take people.

No doubt all asylum seekers have very valid reasons for wanting to come here, and my heart goes out to them.  Ultimately though the people that live here have a right to be heard. We may not like what we hear from either sides, be it the Libs, Labor or the Greens and Independents. So I think the idea the PM had to bring people together to see if a consensus can be reached is the best way forward. TA is being his pathetic usual.

Marilyn you are very idealistic and passionate about your beliefs, but we live in an imperfect world and democracy is not perfect, but it's all we have and its precious. You make a very good case, I agree with you on the fisherman.

Marilyn what would be a good cutoff number in your opinion for Australia to take? And what should we do once we have reached that number? Or is even the idea of puting a number on it being mean spirited. Sometimes idealism has to be tempered. But I believe that we need idealistic people in this world - so hats off to you.

Of course the only real way to fix the refugee problem is for the countries that people want to flee from to have stable progressive governments ( and that is not going to happen) anything else is just a bandaid. We can and should do our best.

LadyInRed

July 9. 2012 04:59 PM

Ad astra

Hi Lyn
Thank you for your kind comment.  The asylum seeker issue is contentious and evokes emotional responses.  It is difficult to engage in rational discussion when emotions are running so high.

The link to the SMH article was helpful; it contains important information.  I noted particularly these paragraphs: ''This is not really an Australian problem alone and it's not going to be resolved through an Australia solution alone,'' Ms Feller told The Saturday Age.
''This is really not a domestic political issue, which it seems to be being debated as, it's actually a regional and in fact a global one.''

“Ms Feller said countries in the region were likely to meet this year to consider how to deal with ''irregular maritime movements'' by refugees and urged Australia to increase its efforts in this area.

“Asked about the government's proposed Malaysia people-swap, whereby up to 800 asylum seekers who arrive by boat would be sent to Malaysia in return for Australia taking 4000 refugees from that country, Ms Feller said: ''We said we could work with it and we stand by that - subject to certain things happening, and they haven't yet happened.''

“One of the things still to be finalised was how Australia would assess the needs of children and vulnerable people before any decision on whether to send them to Malaysia.”


Ms Feller does not show much enthusiasm for Tony Abbott’s Nauru option: ”Opposition Leader Tony Abbott announced this week that he would ask the UNHCR to supervise its planned centre on Nauru, but Ms Feller said she could not commit the agency to be involved ''in the abstract''. The agency considered Nauru problematic under the Pacific Solution and now that the country had signed the refugee convention ''wouldn't automatically change our position''.

www.smh.com.au/.../...e-effort-20120629-218as.html

Ad astra

July 9. 2012 05:07 PM

Ad astra

Gravel
Thank you for your kind words.  You are the first one to specify the number of asylum seekers that would be acceptable.  Clearly, that number has been planned for; some who have commented here have given the impression that much larger numbers might have to be catered for.

grannie
Typing on the iPad is a challenge. You suggest I might write something on Abbott’s plan to turn back the boats.  I’ll wait to see how this idea progresses.  From what has been said, here and in Indonesia, it appears the idea may already be a dead duck.

Ad astra

July 9. 2012 05:12 PM

Ad astra

LadyinRed
Thank you for your thoughtful comment.  You throw out a challenge to Marilyn, which I echo: ”Marilyn what would be a good cutoff number in your opinion for Australia to take?  And what should we do once we have reached that number?  Or is even the idea of putting a number on it being mean spirited. Sometimes idealism has to be tempered. But I believe that we need idealistic people in this world - so hats off to you. “

Ad astra

July 9. 2012 05:25 PM

LadyInRed

And thank you Ad astra. This is not an easy subject and it's nice to see you handle it sensitively. I hope that the debate can continue without the need for unpleasantness.

LadyInRed

July 9. 2012 05:31 PM

Ad astra

Marilyn
I’m sure that there would be no need to reassess our capacity to take refugees if the numbers were, to use your words, restricted to “a few thousand of the world's 43 million displaced that manage to come here.” 13,500 a year are already catered for.

The resources needed to cope with the many millions of tourists that we welcome each year are also already catered for.  They come with money to pay for what they want; we do not have to permanently house, employ, educate, and provide health care for them.  To compare tourists with those seeking permanent refuge is a fictitious comparison.

A consideration of resources would be needed though if the new refugees arriving were ten or twenty or thirty times the number planned for.  I certainly got the impression from comments on this piece that much larger numbers ought to be admitted, but no one has said how many.  So may I ask you to respond to LadyinRed’s question: ”Marilyn what would be a good cutoff number in your opinion for Australia to take?  And what should we do once we have reached that number?”

You have provided us with much useful information on asylum seeker issues.  Thank you.

Ad astra

July 9. 2012 06:08 PM

Marilyn

Why do you arrogantly propose or assume there is anything like a cut off number?

Look around the world and ask how many nations pretend they can choose?

We can have a cut off number for refugees under the hoax and expensive volunatary scheme and we do - it is 6,000 people referred by the UNHCR through 36 of our embassies.

What we can not do is have a cut off number for asylum seekers because no-one can ever control the number of people who seek asylum and it is illegal to try.

When it says everyone has the right to seek asylum it means precisely that.

Should all nations have a cut off and just let the rest die?

Honestly, stop this arrogant ignorance and read the facts.

Again, what do our resources have to do with a few thousand refugees arriving here?   We don't whinge about the 76% of all asylum seekers who fly here and use resources even though most are frauds.

We don't whinge about spending $60,000 per person to import them as migrants disguised as refugees when they have no legal treaty cover to even apply here.

So why do we whinge about the few thousand who come by sea.

I bet though Pakistan would like to set limits on the millions of refugees there.

We cannot limit and we cannot arbitrarily decide to set some weird number that amounts to a mere 6% of entire migration and then whinge endlessly about the money we waste with illegal prisons.

Marilyn

July 9. 2012 06:36 PM

Marilyn

As for the Bali process, what does that have to do with anything and how come those who support it don't even know what it meant?


www.eurekastreet.com.au/article.aspx?aeid=32044

Independent Rob Oakeshott has introduced to the House of Representatives his own Migration Legislation Amendment (The Bali Process) Bill 2012.  If passed, this bill would amend the Migration Act removing the peg on which the High Court was able to hang the Malaysia solution out to dry.  Under the unamended law, the Minister for Immigration is required to declare in writing that any country to be used for offshore processing provides access to effective procedures for asylum claims, provides protection for asylum seekers while their claims are processed, and meets relevant human rights standards in providing that protection.  In August last year, the High Court of Australia ruled that the Minister could not make a valid declaration in relation to Malaysia as it was not a signatory to the Refugees Convention, and the Arrangement between the two governments was not legally binding.

Oakeshott is proposing that a new peg replace the old one, and that the new one be designed such that Malaysia could pass muster without High Court interference.  His bill would permit the Minister to designate Malaysia as an offshore assessment country because it is a party to the Bali Process which at its last meeting a year ago included 32 countries working on a Regional Cooperation Framework.  If Oakeshott intended meaningful public decision making by the Executive government and appropriate parliamentary scrutiny, he has failed. Participation in the Bali process could not be reckoned a sufficient precondition for a country to pass muster with human rights protection and appropriate asylum procedures.  For example, Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran are all participants in the Bali process.

The only other precondition in the Oakeshott bill is that “the Minister thinks it is in the national interest” to designate a country as an offshore assessment country.  Anxious to avoid any further High Court scrutiny, his drafters have stipulated that the international obligations and domestic laws of a country are irrelevant to the process of designation.  In considering whether designation of another country would be in Australia’s national interest, the Minister is required to have regard to the assurances offered by that country’s government about the assessment of asylum claims and the non-refoulement of asylum seekers whose claims have not yet been decided.  These assurances need not be legally binding.  The Minister is required to place a statement of reasons before Parliament within 2 sitting days of making a designation.  He is also required within 14 days to make a request of UNHCR and the International Organisation for Migration (IOM) seeking a formal statement of their views about the arrangements proposed in the designated country.  It would make more sense if the minister were required to make the requests and receive the statements before making his decision to designate a country, and before tabling the decision in Parliament.  That way the UNHCR and IOM positions could help to inform both the Minster’s decision and Parliament’s assessment of the decision.  The bill provides that “the sole purpose of laying the documents before the Parliament is to inform the Parliament of the matters referred to in the documents and nothing in the documents affects the validity of the designation”. Parliament has no power to disallow the designation and a failure to table the documents would not affect the validity of the designation.  So the Oakeshott peg is designed to ensure that neither Parliament nor the High Court could hang a designated country out to dry, ever again.  The bill is simply a convoluted means for allowing the Executive government to declare an offshore processing country without any meaningful scrutiny by Parliament or the High Court.  It does nothing to advance the cause of public scrutiny of government decisions to provide offshore processing of asylum claims.  

A completely toothless tiger, the bill still provides the opportunity for Parliament to agitate again the debate about Nauru, Malaysia and onshore processing.  


And these are the facts on the Bali countries involved.

Yeah, those Bali countries - shows how ignorant and lazy our media are.

The Bali countries are -

Afghanistan  - currently 5 million Afghan refugees
Myanmar-   tens of thousands leaving
Australia - currently signatory to the convention with just a few thousand refugees.
Nauru- the only refugees ever there were trafficked by us.
Bangladesh- currently hosting 229,000 and sending thousands of Rohingays out to sea
Nepal
Bhutan
New Zealand
Brunei Darussalam
Pakistan- people of concern 4 million
Cambodia - 15,000 fled last year
Palau
China, including Hong Kong SAR* and
Macau SAR*  - 301,000 refugees, 290,000 left to seek asylum.
Papua New Guinea- still hosting 10,000 West Papuans
Democratic People’s Republic of Korea
Philippines 240,000 people of concern
Fiji
Republic of Korea
France (New Caledonia) Samoa
India- Hosting 189,000 refugees
Singapore
Indonesia - 4,200 in country, 16,000 sought asylum
Solomon Islands
Iran- hosting 887,000, 89,000 sought asylum
Sri Lanka- 487,000 people of concern, last year 140,000 sought asylum
Iraq - 1.7 million internal, 3 million sought asylum
Syria - 988,000 refugees, currently thousands being slaughtered and fleeing.
Japan
Thailand- 608,000 refugees
Jordan - 455,000 refugees
Timor-Leste
Kiribati
Tonga
Laos - 8,000 claimed asylum last year
PDR Turkey - 146,000 refugees
Malaysia - 217,000 refugees
Vanuatu
Maldives
Viet Nam
- 339,000 refugees.

Only Australia and New Zealand have actual protection obligations under the convention.

So these are the countries Oakeshott thought were great.

And the lazy ignorant media still think that is rational to pass


Now Lady in Red and AA, if we think seriously that we can lawfully dump refugees in all these countries are the countries allowed to reciprocate?

inside.org.au/.../

And this from the professor who actually bothered to do the research into the hoax Bali conference which is only about bullying the nations to make sure their citizens cannot escape persecution which is precisely what we did to the Jews.

People who want to write or comment should understand what they are on about first.

Marilyn

July 9. 2012 06:53 PM

Jason

Marilyn,
       The only fact I'm aware of is that both parties have offshore detention as policy for the foreseeable future!
So unless you are able to form government in your own right at the next election,that will be the only fact you will have to get your head around.

Jason

July 9. 2012 07:03 PM

Lyn

Hi Ad

Twitterati

ASRC‏
Think Gillard & Abbott are doing the top 5 things possible to save the lives of #asylum seekers? Read this: http://tinyurl.com/7cyy9fk #auspol

Carry_On‏
Abbott’s policy 'doomed to fail'..much like his political career www.theaustralian.com.au/.../story-fn9hm1gu-1226420554499

G_R_E_E_N_S___
What Happens When Indonesia Turns Back Abbott's Turned Back Boats. #auspol #thedrum #qanda

LifeRewardsTheBrave
Abbott 'playing with fire' on boats: Carr - Sydney Morning Herald news.google.com/.../url://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/abbott-playing-with-fire-on-boats-carr-20120709-21rdu.html #auspol

ASRC‏
'We have allowed the media and politicians to reduce asylum seekers to an abstraction.' Read more: www.canberratimes.com.au/.../...0120708-21p8z.html #asylumseekers

Mike Stuchbery‏
A Current Affair reporting on how much of a great idea Nauru is, with Scott Morrison grabs. Blatant LNP propaganda. Get your act together.

smh.com.
National News: Greens back Labor deal despite stoush http://bit.ly/OO3FMk #australia

John Rolfe‏
Average NSW household electricity "discount" is just 1.9%. We think we can get 12%+ for People Power registrants. More: www.dailytelegraph.com.au/.../story-e6freuy9-1226420603537

TEN News Queensland‏
42,000 applications in last 2 weeks for solar panels as Qlders beat tonight's deadline on scrapping 44c subsidy.

Richard Cranston‏
Labor's getting seriously desperate with more dirty, vicious attacks on #Greens www.abc.net.au/.../4117706 www.skynews.com.au/.../article.aspx #auspol

Jonathan Holmes‏
Another burden: underfunded pensions RT @Colvinius: US newspapers: the great crackup continues apace. http://nyti.ms/M9cqLK via @AkikoFujita

The Daily Telegraph‏
HSU reformers take to the hustings http://bit.ly/NTk0ud

Greens branded extremists, similar to One Nation, by ALP factional heavyweight
NSW ALP state secretary Sam Dastyari, whose branch holds its conference in Sydney this weekend, has sparked debate with a call to abandon automatic preferences for the Greens and arguing the minor party comprises "extremists
www.skynews.com.au/.../

Equitist‏
MUST READ   Liberal Party's "speaker's notes" read like a Soviet propaganda tract. media.crikey.com.au/.../...s-Notes-1-July-2012.pdf #AUSpol

Marquis‏
The opportunity cost of not acting on climate change. Take note Tony Abbott m.smh.com.au/.../...ces-higher-20120709-21r3w.html

Agnes Mack‏
Notice that @TonyAbbottMHR hasn't posted link to his #insiders interview. Not on his website either. I'm here to help: http://bit.ly/NaJaWK

SmileSmile

Lyn

July 9. 2012 07:18 PM

Gravel

Ad Astra

Thanks for your response.  The numbers I spoke about are over and above what are already in Labor's policy and if other country's in the region get involved I would expect the number to move upwards, if the legislation gets the go-ahead.

Gravel

July 9. 2012 07:21 PM

2353

I give up, I have refrained from commenting earlier but the constant repetition is getting to me.  Asking for someone to suggest a number of people this country should accept is pointless unless:
1. They can actually do something about it - i.e. they are the Government
2. They are in possession of details of the people that actually want to come to Australia
3. They can determine accurately how the numbers that want to come here would affect services etc.
4. They have an intimate knowledge of the interrelation and national systems, processes and legislation in respect to refugees.

Clearly, no one in this conversation so far can do any of these things.  So, how about we all calm down a bit - respect that others have differing opinions and there obviously has to be a better way.  There are arguments for both onshore and offshore processing of people but can I remind you that if we did have a land border with anyone, there would be considerably more refugees seeking our assistance.

The conversation is important and thank you AA for allowing us to have it.  Hopefully someone somewhere will read this that actually can introduce a more humane refugee policy, take some thoughts away from this and other sources and act on them.

2353

July 9. 2012 07:35 PM

Marilyn

But we have offshore and onshore now.  REfugees already assessed can only apply if the UNHCR proposes them and this is designed to keep out almost everyone.

Then we have protection which can only be applied for here.

Why is that so difficult for people to understand?

Marilyn

July 9. 2012 07:47 PM

2353

Lyn, your first twitlink (how's that for a new word?) is extremely powerful.  Thanks.   (I refreshed and saw your links above my post.)

We are fiddling while "Rome" burns.

2353

July 9. 2012 07:55 PM

paul walter

Actually made the mistake of watching ACA this evening, something I normally scrupulously avoid doing.
As it happens, after initial hysterics from Grimshaw concerning "hoon drivers"( (not again!!) the thing transferred its attention to asylum seekers, identifying a veritable saturation of Australia as asylum seeker folk are farmed out into the community, boostering Abbott and snarking at the government, and pushing for a Nauru solution- straight electioneering!
As the issue was framed, for a mass audience, it really strikes me as difficult to see how community mentality will change much, if this is the best info they can get.
Joseph Goebbells would have blushed with shame at ACA's callous handling of the subject.

paul walter

July 9. 2012 08:20 PM

Patriciawa

Starting my notes on the asylum seeker pome I realized it was ten days out of date.  So have re-written.  As per instructions TT, here's the first edition!

"I Will Turn Back The Boats!"

Tony Abbott knows he has authority
To give commands, to turn the tide of history.
He can ignore advice, needn’t wait for votes.
Of course he can turn back those boats!

He has a sacred pledge or covenant
With God. He knows that government
Is rightly his….or soon will be. It must.
His blood oath on that just needs our trust.

Knowing himself to be pure of soul,
And with a clear mandate from Newspoll,
He demands again an immediate election.
Gillard must obey, with appropriate genuflection.

Yes! Once Liberals are in ascendance,
Labor, the Greens and Independents
Must finally obey his orders
As he secures Australian borders.

Then his law enacted will be enough
To show the world how stern the stuff
Of Aussie sailors.  They will obey!
Who cares what daft old admirals say?

As for rulers in any neighbouring land,
They were shown exactly where they stand
By John Howard few short years ago.
Ask Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono!

In power he’ll accept no opposition,
Least of all from within the Coalition.
"High Court?"  "International Law of the Sea?"
He laughs.  “There’s only one law around here!  “That’s me!”

Patriciawa

July 9. 2012 08:27 PM

Jason


Expert Panel on Asylum Seekers

Home
Panel Members
Terms of Reference
How to make submissions

http://expertpanelonasylumseekers.dpmc.gov.au/

Jason

July 9. 2012 08:28 PM

Patriciawa


Hi, TT!  As usual it's only when published that first time all the little mistakes jump out.  e.g. apostrophes in last verse.
Do I need them anyway?   I played around with just using them in the last two words, or maybe just the last line?

I can see a few others which I'll sort out as I finally get around to those notes. But of course AA has already broken the back of that particular task.   Suggestions for the pome as always are welcome.

Patriciawa

July 9. 2012 08:38 PM

Tom of Melbourne

” but no one has said how many.

That just isn’t true. I certainly did, and others have said we’re nowhere near the point of getting bothered.

Ad Astra, you’re determined to support this government even when they dip into the political slime and chase the redneck vote.

Tom of Melbourne

July 9. 2012 08:50 PM

Jason

ToM,
   At least the rednecks can be bothered to vote unlike you!

Jason

July 9. 2012 09:02 PM

Marilyn

There is an expert panel on asylum seekers and refugees, it is called the United nations high commission for refugees and there are 148 member states..

How ridiculous and arrogant we have become in this pissant little place.

Marilyn

July 9. 2012 10:20 PM

Lyn

Hi 2353

You posted Lyn, your first twitlink (how's that for a new word?) is extremely powerful

Brilliant 2353 a new twitword I am going to use it thankyou. Yes the article you are referring to is a must read for everybody,

I hope Ad Astra has time.

Gillard & Abbott are doing the top 5 things possible to save the lives of #asylum seekers? Read this

Asylum Seeker Resource Centre
www.asrc.org.au/.../...submission-expert-panel.pdf

SmileSmileSmile

Lyn

July 9. 2012 10:31 PM

BSA Bob

I too watched ACA & am still recovering. "Straight electioneering" is correct, simply a ten minute advertisement for the coalition. Plus a bit of rabble rousing, reeling off the names of suburbs where arrivals are staying.

BSA Bob

July 9. 2012 11:25 PM

Psyclaw


Marilyn

Just to check it out, I think you are saying let all ASs who come this way settle here if refugees. This is an open door policy.

Now people who have not seriously entertained this possibility, to get their head around it need to know what we're talking about. Hence the questions about numbers.

Apparently there are 3 million refugees in the South East Asian basin at the moment. So an open doors approach theoretically suggests that we can deal with that number ie a population increase of 14% in a couple of years.

On past records of drown rates, that means we can expect about 100K to drown on the way. This number cannot be easily dismissed as you did regarding "a few hundred drownings" yesterday. We could  alleviate this by providing free air transport. That's 9,000 full 747s or two flights per day for 15 years.

Now personally, my view of the world is that such a plan would not faze me. However I'm sure that many people more skilled in the transportation, immigration, housing, social planning areas to name but a few would come up with some pretty logical and cogent reasons about how this couldn't possibly work.

If 3 million is just too big a number,how do we reduce it?

I think what you're saying is let anyone who chooses to get on a boat and come here do just that. And if the boats sink, help them as best we can, some will drown and we take the rest.

Is that a fair summary of what you are saying? I would appreciate your calm and plain English feedback.

Cheers

Psyclaw

July 10. 2012 01:00 AM

DMW

Ok Ad
you asked for numbers.

The planned immigration intake for 2012 - 13 is 203,750 see table here: www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/01backgd_01.htm

The humanitarian intake appears to be capped at around 13,750. The breakdowns for the five years to 2010 -11 are shown here: www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/60refugee.htm.

The numbers for the various other migration programmes amounts to 190,000 So for the current financial year I would reduce the numbers proportionally through other programmes so as the humanitarian intake could be doubled to take it to 27,500.

I would allocate 20,000 of those 'places' to refugees as recognised by the UNHCR and/or IOM that are currently residing in other countries. The balance of 7,500 would be available for Irregular Maritime Arrivals who would be processed within Australia.

I would continue with similar numbers until such time that there was a reasonable dent made in the numbers of displaced persons in places such as Malaysia, Thailand, Inonesia and Pakistan.

IO would review the situation after three tears and would consider increasing the number of humanitarian places if appropriate.

DMW

July 10. 2012 01:58 AM

paul walter

BTW,
Patricia WA retains her enthusiasm for construction of verse and the sharing of the burgeoning fruits of her endeavours with posters here, as in the past at other sites.
And this time she is very, very accurate in the messaging.
Methinks the Grahame Morris types are already well and truly about trying to light fires, as the election draws closer, then running off to hide while others cop the consequence, as per usual.
Mind you, the ALP does make its own life difficult for itself and easy for its enemies some times, doesn't it?
Am not sure the Greens are playing it much smarter, either.

paul walter

July 10. 2012 02:01 AM

DMW

For data nerds The Guardian has a mash up of 2011 UNHCR Refugee Statistics

www.guardian.co.uk/.../refugee-statistics-unhcr-data

Some quick Numbers
Australia has 0.98 refugees per 1,000 residents that is less than 1 per 1,000.

Austria 5.08 / 1000
Belgium 1.67 / 1000
Burundi 3.50 / 1000
Canada  4.87 / 1000
Germany 7.22 / 1000
Iran   14.51 / 1000
Liechtenstein 2.55 / 1000
Luxembourg 6.41 / 1000
Malta 14.73 / 1000
Mauritania 7.72 / 1000

Gees we have it bad don't we? We can't cope with numbers that are a drop in the ocean compared to countries worse off than us and don't get even close to similar countries. We could double our intake and still be embarassed by Canada.

I have changed my mind on the numbers I gave in my previous comment.

This financial year I will up it to a 55,000 intake.

DMW

July 10. 2012 02:06 AM

DMW

paul walter @ 1:58 AM
I can't recall which guru it was who told me that when I was looking for my worst enemy that I should first look for a mirror.

It was sage advice then and I suspect something I should still use Tong

DMW

July 10. 2012 03:56 AM

paul walter

Hopefully you will follow your guru's advice.

paul walter

July 10. 2012 05:47 AM

Marilyn

Psyclaw, that is the law whether you like it or not.   If every tourist, student or temporary worker decided to apply for asylum tomorrow we would have to assess them as refugees against the convention.

No matter how much you whinge about wanting numbers you don't get to choose numbers.

Marilyn

July 10. 2012 07:12 AM

Austin 3:16

So a refugee gets sent to Malaysia - what's to stop them getting on the next plane or boat and heading back to Australia ?

Are they going to be physically detained ?

Austin 3:16

July 10. 2012 07:21 AM

Lyn


TODAY’S LINKS

News Values , Mr Denmore, The Failed Estate
The irony is that the more the established players trash their brands by chasing the 24/7 cycle (the original Hamster Wheel), cutting staff, outsourcing sub-editing, moving relentlessly downmarket and using partisanship as a marketing opportunity, the greater premium on news and analysis you can trust - that isn't the mouthpiece of some Capitalist Poobah and their paid lackeys.
thefailedestate.blogspot.com.au/.../...values.html

Labor and the Greens, Andrew Elder, Politically Homeless
Labor and the Greens have to work together. They need to let off steam from time to time, but they must do substantial work together. The Coalition won't work with anyone for the greater good, so stuff them until they wake up to themselves. They have adults in both ranks
http://andrewelder.blogspot.com.au/

The Finnigans home of the BISON’s
STOP PRESS: In his Budget Reply, Tony Abbott said: "I Can Save $50B" - If so, his Blackhole is still near $70B. But he cannot tell us where the $50B saving will come from
www.thefinnigans.blogspot.com.au/.../...le_10.html

Time for Turnbull to walk the talk on gay marriage, Tess Lawrence, Independent Australia
But it is unworthy for Turnbull to even attempt to delude us into thinking that the Liberal Party enjoys the moral high ground because its members don’t get expelled if they cross the floor.
It is farcical when in the next breath he tells us that because leadership (read Tony Abbott) won’t allow a “free vote,”
www.independentaustralia.net/.../

Tony Arrrrrrbott; Talk Like The Pirate King, Archie, Archiarchives
So it seems that Tony Abbott’s instructions will either lead to good old-fashioned (it worked in the past) piracy being carried out by the Navy or to real, actual crimes being committed by our Naval personnel. Good luck, Tony, the professionalism of the Navy includes
archiearchive.wordpress.com/.../

Climate concerns forgotten in carbon tax anti-climax , Mungo Macallum, ABC
But the fact that the top end of town seems to be moving at least slightly in her direction should give Gillard a shred of hope. Perhaps it's time to start a scare campaign of her own: if you don't start being sensible about the carbon price, you'll end up with Tony Abbott as prime minister! And then we'll really have something to panic about.
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4118434.html

Boat People. Not New. Never New, Suddenly Unacceptable, Therese Trouserzoff , Pigs Arms
So, for saving us from more of his type, we should respond in kind and send Tony back to , a post Thatcherite England – a place where he is bound to find a nation willing to embrace.  his values, speak his language and provide a climate as bleak as his spirit – or apparent  lack thereof
pigsarms.com.au/.../

I Will Turn Back The Boats!”, Patricia WA, Polliepomes
He has a sacred pledge or covenant, With God. He knows that government,Is rightly his….or soon will be. It must,.His blood oath on that just needs our trust
polliepomes.wordpress.com/.../

Abbott's Politburo Propaganda, Ian McAuley, New Matilda
If this drivel is the best the Coalition can do, it is nowhere near fit to govern. That is not to give a wholesale endorsement to the present Government, which has failed to engage the public in policy processes. But if the Coalition is to be taken seriously, it has to  
newmatilda.com/.../abbott-politburo-propaganda

The day the Gillard government died, The Piping Shrike
The exquisite irony, of course, was that so much did Labor fail to reconnect, it lost its majority and ended up having to take up the Greens agenda anyway, especially on the ETS. But even Gillard supporters can hardly claim she has been stumping the country talking
www.pipingshrike.com/.../...d-government-died.html

Why the Labor Right is off-beam on the Greens, Bernard Keane, The Power Index
That of course points to Labor’s real problem: if there’s been any “cannibalising” of the progressive vote by the Greens, it’s now been replaced by a massive shift of Labor’s vote to the Coalition. The Labor Right may lament Labor voters who’ve shifted to the Greens
www.thepowerindex.com.au/.../why-the-labor-right-is-off-beam-on-the-gre

Collca - Welcome to the Collca Website, Peter Martin
The latest Essential Report does indeed show Greens supporters out of touch with mainstream Australia on something - asylum seekers. But even here Greens supporters are not as much out of touch as might be imagined. 35 per cent believe the Labor has been too tough on asylum seekers, a surprising 30 http://www.petermartin.com.au/

ABC poster boy- Clive Palmer, ABC Has Gone To Hell
The ABC chasing after garbage and bathing in it, while cheap and easy, is not fulfilling their public service. Key to the ABC’s editorial policy is to provide appropriate coverage of valid community perspectives, but when viewers are saturated with the dominant voice of Palmer and a select few, such as Peter Reith, it’s a meaningless document.
www.abcgonetohell.net/.../abc-poster-boy-clive-palmer

Economists have no lock on economic understanding, Ross Gittins
Many people don't realise the economics we hear from politicians, business people, economists and the media, morning, noon and night, is just one way of analysing how the economy works. Almost everything we're told about what causes what is inspired by the "neoclassical" model
www.rossgittins.com/.../...o-lock-on-economic.html

Gillard going” at rate of once every 4 min, Uthers Say
On The Contrarians, otherwise seen as Fox News Channelling down under, of July 6, 2012 the host Peter van Onselen manages to either mention or promote mention of Kevin Rudd and/or the imminent departure of Julia Gillard from the leadership of the Labour government at least eight or nine times.
http://utherssay.com/

Rinehart’s Reach, Sharona Couts, The Global Mail
Yet those pasty little policies do give some insight into Rinehart's encounters with our elected representatives and public servants, and how she and other powerful players can gain direct access to decision-makers, who don't have to disclose anything but the scantest details to the public
www.theglobalmail.org/.../Australian

Democracy and the Right to Party, Amanda Lohrey, The MonthlyNews
footage of Egyptians queuing patiently for hours to exercise their first free vote in decades is a sobering sight. Even more sobering is the whining of those Australians who currently complain about having to vote at all. Our political culture has never been more cynical; it is fraying at the edges, mired in ignorance and negativity.
www.themonthly.com.au/comment-australian-democracy-and-right-party-amanda-lohrey-5628

Today’s Front Pages
Australia Newspaper Front Pages for 10 July 2012
www.frontpagestoday.co.uk/index.cfm

Lyn

July 10. 2012 07:28 AM

2353

DMW - You're right (again).  Australia doesn't have a refugee problem, it has a politiical problem driven by a race to the bottom lead by Gillard and Abbott (and their respective machines).

Off topic but what is it with the ALP?  As soon as they start looking credible, some clown puts his head above the wall and shouts look at me.  The media invaribly does.  Like it or not, the LNP is either better at keeping its fights private or more disciplined - which will be a telling factor at the next election.

2353

July 10. 2012 07:42 AM

2353

And maybe this is how the LNP does it.

www.brisbanetimes.com.au/.../...0120709-21rh7.html

2353

July 10. 2012 08:31 AM

Ad astra

LYN'S DAILY LINKS updated: www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...-DAILY-LINKS.aspx

Ad astra

July 10. 2012 10:23 AM

Lyn

Good Morning Ad and Everybody

Twitterverse :-

Abbott, SBY did not discuss boats policy: Faizasyah
TONY Abbott's controversial plan to turn back asylum-seeker boats was not discussed with Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono during recent talks with the Indonesian president.

The Opposition leader repeatedly has refused to say if the plan was mentioned to Dr Yudhoyono during their meeting in Darwin last week.

Teuku Faizasyah, the president's spokesman for foreign issues, said Mr Abbott did not mention asylum-seeker boats."The president's meeting with Tony Abbott in Darwin last week was just a casual meeting," he said."That issue was untouched between the two."
www.theaustralian.com.au/.../story-fn59niix-1226421950518

Simon Cullen‏@Simon_Cullen
Here's Tony Abbott's letter to the PM, saying the Coalition won't participate in border protection reference group: www.scribd.com/.../Committee-Letter-10-7-12

news.com.au‏@news_com_au
The federal opposition will hold talks with an expert panel set up by the federal government to devise a politic... http://tinyurl.com/72dbj76

Steve Thompson‏@stevethompson49
“Indonesia will bend to boats policy, says Abbott” Our would-be PM is delusional. www.smh.com.au/.../...s-abbott-20120709-21rrd.html

jacinda woodhead‏@lesslinear
It's not very Christian to come in through the back door. www.theaustralian.com.au/.../story-fn9hm1gu-1226422034305

Pamela‏@Pamela_November
FORKED TONGUE DOES NOT WANT SOLUTION Abbott reportedly turns down positions on government's border protection committe http://bit.ly/LKdPKG

Newsflash: Julia Gillard didn't lie about her carbon tax plans before election
There is a gulf of difference between a broken promise in the context of altered circumstance, and a deliberate decision to mislead.

As such, to accuse Gillard of lying, to argue that the carbon pricing scheme is based on a deliberate, pre-meditated lie, in itself displays some towering mendacity.

Who's telling the biggest porkies in Canberra? Join Paul Syvret to discuss.
Date: Tuesday July 10, 2012
Time: 12:00PM AEST www.couriermail.com.au/.../story-e6frerdf-1226421929786

Mulgabob‏@mulgabob
The only one digging himself out of a hole is "Genius" Benson who didn't check the facts First #auspolwww.dailytelegraph.com.au/.../story-e6freuy9-1226422058520

The Australian‏@australian
Labor says poll uptick will take longer: LABOR says it is unrealistic to expect a turnaround in the latest Newsp... http://bit.ly/RRsAi0

Spencer Jolly‏@SpencerJolly
Speaker Fiona Simpson outlines to mps ban on tv cameras in debating chamber and she's ordered security review of whole parliament

AndoJC‏@AndoJC
Tony Abbott's direct action to cost double that of Labor's carbon attack | The Australian http://bit.ly/Mh8WcN #auspol

Treasury analysis released under Freedom of Information laws yesterday shows the Coalition will have to impose an effective carbon price of $62 a tonne of carbon abated compared with $29 under the government's scheme Sid Maher The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au/.../story-fn99tjf2-1226128448888

DNN‏@d_notices
Turnbull won't cross floor for gay marriage www.nationaltimes.com.au/.../...0120710-21sc7.html @NationalTimesAU

vexnews‏@vexnews
NSW govt won't join a legal challenge to the mining tax, believes it has little chance http://bit.ly/PI1nB8 #nswpol #auspol #ausbiz #mrrt

SmileSmileSmileSmile

Lyn

July 10. 2012 10:52 AM

Psyclaw


Marilyn @5.47am

I am very disappointed by your response, and tone. I think that you have something reasonable and sensible in your argument, and I am trying to understand it and its implications.

So I wrote to you  about my understanding of your argument to see if I was getting your message OK and you reply with aggression and criticism.

Psyclaw, that is the law whether you like it or not ............. No matter how much you whinge about wanting numbers you don't get to choose numbers.

As a result I'll pretend that your 6.47am comment never happened, and invite you to

(1) read my 11.25pm comment again

(2) note that it was not a whinge

(3) note that I was not enquiring or complaining about what the law is

(4) address the essence of my query as reposted below

I think what you're saying is let anyone who chooses to get on a boat and come here do just that. And if the boats sink, help them as best we can, some will drown and we take the rest.

Is that a fair summary of what you are saying? I would appreciate your calm and plain English feedback.


Please note the 3rd and 5th last words of the last sentence.

Cheers



Psyclaw

July 10. 2012 11:33 AM

Patriciawa

Psyclaw, sadly I think you may find Marilyn as impervious to reason as FB was to your logic elsewhere, refusing to accept even friendly and constructrive criticism.

Lyn thanks for the link!   My email played up in the night so I'm not sure if you got to see I had sort of finished those NOTES.  I hope Ad Astra gets to read those, and TT to see the cleaned up and illustrated version of it all at polliepomes.wordpress.com/.../

Back in the land of the living again!  After a good night's sleep I'm off for a latte at South Beach Shed with Tacker and friends and to show off my bedroom slippers!

Patriciawa

July 10. 2012 11:38 AM

LadyInRed

Marilyn there is really no need to get offensive, when you do it makes me want to switch off. I hear your frustration at our supposed ignorance. Calling this a pissant country doesn't help your cause, calling us arrogant and ignorant doesn't help get your points accross. However, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt - this time.

I now understand the point you are making. If someones turns up at our door and says 'I am seeking asylum', it is our duty to take them if their claim is validated - end of story. A very hummane and noble act and no doubt the correct way to treat people. I for one would like to think that if I became a refugee I would find refuge in a country like Australia.

The truth is this isn't going to happen, and you can scream and yell and be as aggressive, passionate, as you like it isn't going to happen. And from what I have read of your posts even the very word compromise on your position causes you be more infuriated and resort to name calling (I understand but it's not helpful). Currently the people holding the same view as yourself are approximately 12% of the voting population and so if no solution can be found and everyone sticks to their preferred position then the government of the day will just have to take charge, as unpleasant as that is. That's democracy. And I guess we have reached an impasse.

LadyInRed

July 10. 2012 11:56 AM

Ad astra

Patriciawa
I was delighted to read of your steady recovery.  I hope you will soon be back to full strength.

You have lost none of your poetic skills.  Your pome is delightful, the cartoon is apt, and your words are wise.  Thank you for your kind words about TPS and your link to the current piece.

Ad astra

July 10. 2012 12:14 PM

Michael

Why does anyone in the media bother talking to Alexander Downer?

Here:

www.abc.net.au/.../4120718

he's quoted from Lateline last night that he has little time for asylum seekers from Afghanistan because they should be staying there to help build the nation.

For a start, a high proportion of refugees from Afghanistan are ethnically Hazara people, who are actively thwarted, both historically and now, from participating at meaningful levels of Afghani society because of their belittled ethnicity and religious beliefs.

They leave a country that won't allow them to get ahead, to get ahead, Alexander, no matter how many Australian dollars or other first world currencies are being thrown at Afghanistan.

While he's criticising political refugees for coming here because they aren't assisting in their home country's development, why not take aim at the close to a million expatriates from Australia* working in the financial capitals of Europe and the US, apparently quite happy to advance the situations of foreign employers but denying this country their skills and contributive talents?

Expatriates pursue exactly the same livelihood aspirations of asylum seekers, but they're "us", aren't they?

On an historical note, as Foreign Minister and thus in the frontline of handling this country's international obligations, Downer is quoted in the above story, referring to turning back refugees' boats:

"The Navy took them to the 12-mile zone of Indonesia, near an Indonesian port, left them with enough fuel and food to get to that port.

"On some occasions I rang the Indonesian foreign minister to tell him what we had done and he presumably put in place various measures to deal with those people when they arrived there."

On "some" occasions, "presumably"??? Downer was always a disgrace as Minister for Foreign Affairs, a fool who applied his wife-beating 'joke', "the things that batter", to every aspect of his worldview.

Nothing has changed. The man embarrasses himself every instant he opens his mouth.

And yet the ABC return again and again, as if he were some font of wisdom. More bowl than font. And floating in it...

* http://www.exfin.com/ a site where expatriates are tutored in making the most out of 'over there' and still put claims in 'back here'.

Michael

July 10. 2012 12:20 PM

Ad astra

Hi Lyn
Your Twitterverse highlights the evasiveness of Tony Abbott and his lack of courage.  He makes loud noises about turning back the boats, but hasn’t the guts to raise it with SBY.

The stark truth that his DAP will cost twice the Government’s carbon price/ETS plan is now exposed, but how much air play will that get in the MSM?

Ad astra

July 10. 2012 12:33 PM

Jason

The Australian Labor Party is conducting its first ever survey of members and supporters and we want to hear from you.

http://laborsurvey2012.surveyanalytics.com/

Jason

July 10. 2012 12:56 PM

Tom of Melbourne

” I think you may find Marilyn as impervious to reason

Marilyn appears to be one of the few here who actually uses reason to reach a conclusion. Most others simply look for the ALP press release and speaking note that supports their latest policy u-turn/volte-face/back flip.

We have the government dredging the policy and political slime chasing the redneck vote, a succession of diametrically opposed government policies, the government backers unthinkingly falling into line with every change, but apparently it’s people like Marilyn who don’t see reason

Marilyn at least supports a humane policy, whereas others here seek to send desperate people, who seek our protection, off shore, and though some convoluted logic, they think there is a difference between their version of off shore, and the Liberals version of off shore.

It’s truly bizarre.

Tom of Melbourne

July 10. 2012 01:57 PM

LadyInRed

I am not a redneck Tom nor am I inhumane, but this issue has become political and so a political solution is the only thing we have to debate about. I can say I agree with Marilyn, and I do think we should take people who are desperate and who seek our protection. Afterall isn't that what I would want for myself? And that is precisely the position the Greens have taken to the talks. Abbott's reply to Julia has said you have the numbers if the Independents, Greens and Labor can come to a compromise, and I guess he is correct. They don't need the Libs its true. Can a compromise be achieved - I truly hope so - but if you go into these talks with an absolute position and your only premise is to push for your solution and that appears to be the position the Greens have so far adopted then I see no solution coming out of it. And, judging by Marilyn (assuming she is a Greens voter or at least is typical of a Greens voter) then if the Greens changed their position they would lose a lot of face.

LadyInRed

July 10. 2012 02:22 PM

Jason

ToM,
   Thanks for your lecture! I was unaware that it was a crime to disagree with whatever Marilyn had to say (no matter how loud she yells) on this or any other issue.

If I believe what the government was trying to do was the right thing aren't I entitled to believe it? Is not my democratic right to be a dumb ill informed "red neck"? is it also my democratic right not to give a stuff about the plight of refugee's or how they're treated here or elsewhere despite with the UN says?

Just as it's your right to hold your views I'm not going to lecture you try to change your mind or anything like that, for the simple reason I don't have the answers! I don't know how to unite the community to be as one on this or any solution because you have the rednecks on one side and Marilyn on the other and no compromise could be found.

I'd be more worried if I were you about the Prospect of a coalition government with control of both houses than I would about what anyone thinks here.



Jason

July 10. 2012 02:53 PM

2353

Jason,

Survey completed.  Don't know if they will like some of it, oh well . . .

2353

July 10. 2012 02:56 PM

Jason

2353,
    It did say tell us what you think! not sure if they will like some of my answers either.

Jason

July 10. 2012 03:01 PM

LadyInRed

I did the survey Jason - thanks for the link.

LadyInRed

July 10. 2012 03:10 PM

DMW

ToM, ToM the Piper's son
Stole the pig and away he run.

There are very few that can hold there heads high in this debate.

Among the few are the independents in both houses who moved positions a bit here and there in attempt to find a solution through compromise.

The intransigence of the majority of LNP and Greens was a disgrace.

I do not agree with the governments policy and 'solutions' but accept they are the government and should be able to implement their programme.

Having followed the discussions here for about 18 months and put in my two cents worth with great vigour at times I have noticed some subtle shifts and not all of it toward an absolute toeing of and echoing of the government line.

I am finding your constant taunts and name calling to no better than the tactics used by the Leader of the Opposition and they are sometimes very dull colourless and boring.

I enjoy some of your contributions but playing petty school yard name calling doesn't cut it.

You have gotten me to the point where I feel obliged to tell you to FERK ORF but I am still inclined not to just yet.

DMW

July 10. 2012 03:20 PM

Marilyn

Why should the government be allowed to break the law just to suit the rednecks in western Sydney?   Would those who think that is OK like them to break the law and punish them without cause?

The Greens are not intransigent, the media simply refuse to publish the major amendment they made - an immediate resettlement for those in Indonesia that we have had jailed for over a decade rotting their lives away, let them fly here instead of denying them visas, increased aid to the UNHCR in the region and all the things we have been arguing for over a decade.

To believe that upholding the law is wrong truly shows what a cretin country we have become.

Marilyn

July 10. 2012 03:38 PM

Tom of Melbourne

DMW, you’re welcome to address me as you are inclined, I’m really not too bothered one way or the other. One of the issues I have with this site is the falsity of its claim – “Putting politicians and commentators to the verbal sword”

It does no such thing, nor does it even attempt to pay lip service to its statement of intent. It’s an entirely partisan site. I’ve not seen a lead from Ad Astra that puts government actions or policy under genuine scrutiny, much less the sword.

This is the latest example, a shameless and partisan endorsement of the latest policy brain wave of the government.
-----------------------
There is plenty of lecturing/pontificating going on here Jason. Mine is simply an alternative form of it.

Tom of Melbourne

July 10. 2012 03:40 PM

Ad astra

Folks
I’m trying to catch up on the issue of asylum seeker numbers, knowing though that this will irritate Marilyn.  We seem at times to be talking at cross-purposes.  

If I’m interpreting Marilyn’s approach correctly, she would accept all asylum seekers whether they come by fishing boats or other ways, as we are legally required to do.  That is happening already.  They are processed onshore and fit within the annual cap that is said to be around 13,500.  (Can anyone provide a link to confirm this number?)  It has been suggested that this cap be lifted to 20,000 or even 25,000.

Some of you have suggested numbers we might take into this country.

DMW suggests 55,000; LadyinRed, 20,000.  ToM, you are right, you did mention a number – 100,000; I missed it.

Psyclaw goes to the other end of the spectrum and asks what would be the effect of admitting the estimated numbers of refugees currently in neighbouring countries, namely 3 million.  He estimates that if we provided air transport, instead of them coming on fishing boats, that would take 9,000 full 747s, or two flights per day for 15 years.

Although there is reticence among some to contemplate the number of asylum seekers we might be able to accommodate, without numbers any debate we might have wallows in uncertainty.  If it was a question of whether we could accommodate those arriving on fishing boats, because of the relatively small numbers, the answer is ‘yes’.  What concerns us about boat arrivals is the numbers that die on the way, now around 5%, one in twenty.  Much of the debate is about this.

So let’s look at the numbers as supplied by Government’s Department of Immigration and Citizenship at www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/60refugee.htm

The whole site is a most informative reference.  Here are some extracts.  

The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) estimates that there were 43.7 million forcibly displaced people worldwide at the end of 2010, the highest number in 15 years.  Of these, 27.5 million were internally displaced persons; 15.4 million were refugees and 837 500 asylum seekers.”

Further on we read: “In 2010–11 a total of 13 799 visas were granted [in Australia] under the Humanitarian Program, of which 8971 visas were granted under the offshore component and 4828 visas were granted under the onshore component.”  That gives a perspective on the dimensions of the program.

Looking to solutions, an article in The Age talks of a proposal by Julian Burnside: ”… the only way to stop the boats is by processing asylum seekers in Indonesia.

"I suspect that their real concern is to stop people getting here full stop," he said.

"They say the problem is that people die at sea trying to get to safety in Australia.

"If that's really the problem then I would've thought the obvious solution to it is to stop getting people on boats and the only way to do that ... is for Australia to set up a fair dinkum, fair processing system in Indonesia with the co-operation of the Indonesian government."

Mr Burnside has proposed an agreement with Indonesia that would involve processing boat people's claims for asylum in Indonesia and then giving them a ticket, telling them they will be safely resettled in Australia in a number of months or years and warning them not to get on a dangerous boat in the meantime.

"If you did that you'd stop people getting on boats and risking their lives," he said, adding that we would have to increase our annual refugee intake as well.”


www.theage.com.au/.../...boats-20120629-216da.html

According to the UNHCR, at the beginning of 2012 there were 3233 refugees in Indonesia.  http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49e488116.html

Julian Burnside’s scheme could encompass all of those without putting a strain on Australia’s resources.

But the problem is much wider.  In our immediate region, there are estimated to be around 100,000 asylum seekers is Malaysia and about the same number in Thailand.  What is our obligation to them?  How may could we accommodate, and over what period of time?

In summary, with the humanitarian attitudes expressed strongly here on TPS, I expect we would want to make serious inroads into the resettling of more refugees in our country.  From what we understand of the numbers seeking asylum, and our current program to accommodate them, we ought to be able to implement Julian Burnside’s Indonesia proposal.  The number arriving by boat is relatively small, but the deaths along the way could be avoided by processing asylum seekers in Indonesia so that they had no need to get on boats.

The numbers seeking asylum though extends well beyond Indonesia, although this is where most finally embark on the boat journey to Australia.  They come from Malaysia, Thailand and countries beyond, from as far afield as Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and so on.  There seems to be an endless flow into Indonesia for passage to Australia.  Even if we could cope with the refugees now in Indonesia, as we drain them away to Australia via the Burnside proposal, there will be more arriving in Indonesia to take their place?  The ‘queue’ seems almost endless.

So, as much as some would like to dismiss the issue of numbers as irrelevant, and even advocate an ‘open-borders’ approach, to do so without considering the logistics and the resources we would need to support that approach, would be folly.

I hope that the Houston Committee http://expertpanelonasylumseekers.dpmc.gov.au/ will consider all these complex issues as well as finding a way to stop people risking their lives on boats and expeditiously accommodating a larger number of refugees.

Its terms of reference are here: expertpanelonasylumseekers.dpmc.gov.au/terms

Note the first one: “how best to prevent asylum seekers risking their lives by travelling to Australia by boat.”

Ad astra

July 10. 2012 04:53 PM

LadyInRed

Marilyn come on cretin country? How old are you?

Ad astra thank you for your summary. Let's hope that a compromise can be reached and I do believe if everyone comes together in good faith then that should be achievable. And, if Abbott has refused to join in then he really ought to be booed out of the arena if he then comes out and criticises it and uses it against the government.

LadyInRed

July 10. 2012 05:40 PM

2353

Lets assume for a minute that those that choose the irregular route to Australia solely do so because the camps are considered to be too crowded and "they will be at the back of the queue" that lasts sometimes over 10 years.  Lets also assume that all 300,000 refugees in South East Asia actually will choose to stay in the camps if they don't get entry to Australia.

A Qantas A380 (Mk2) has 484 seats (source Seatguru.com) and Qantas would appear to use them intensely, meaning that one in all likelihood couldn't be spared to run shuttle trips to SE Asia.  Also not every airport can handle a A380 - so other smaller planes would more than likely be used.  It would take over 600 trips using an A380 to clear all the camps.  So while 300,000 sounds a lot - it would take almost a year (assuming two trips a day) to clear everyone.  Australia has a population of 23 million or so so the population increase would be under 2% - even if they all landed here tomorrow.  Just think of the economic stimulus to retail, real estate and a lot of other sectors that are currently claiming to be struggling!  I would imagine that for a lot of people in a refugee camp - if the ultimate destination was not Australia it wouldn't be a deal breaker.

If you cut out the waiting time (in what really does look like sub-human conditions), a lot more people would be inclined to take the safer option - front up at a resettlement camp and be prepared to wait a considerably smaller timeframe.  That Australia only takes hundreds per year from the camps is pathetic (a word I have been using a lot lately in regard to the current Government).  While I'm not advocating taking 300,000 people per year from refugee camps - a realistic total (possibly a regional deal to take the number that enter the camps plus a significant figure over and above to reduce the "perceived need" to get on the leaky boat) would be a valid option.  Then once the time spent in camps decreased, the numbers reduce.

If there is no demand, those that send the boats lose their business (no real loss there), people in the camps can see the light at the end of the tunnel, and Australia returns to being a country that shows humanity and diversity.  All it needs is political leadership - not a race to the sewer.  Yes there is a considerable amount of The Greens policy in this post, maybe instead of having brain farts in media interviews, the ALP should look at their traditional support base and question why something like 10 to 15% of them now Vote Green.

2353

July 10. 2012 06:09 PM

MWS

Ad Astra, there is one flaw in Julian Burnside's suggested solution.  Indonesia doesn't want to host a UNHCR refugee camp.  And as Indonesia is a sovereign country, Australia can't make them.

Indonesia's position is that having a UNHCR camp will encourage even more potential asylum seekers into Indonesia.  Many of these asylum seekers will be better treated (better food, health care, housing)than Indonesians!  This will cause a lot of unrest, and (rightly) Indonesia doesn't think that the benefits of such a camp (if any)outweigh the costs.
Indonesia feels that the majority of asylum seekers in their country are there because these people are drawn towards Australia. They don't want to stay in Indonesia, so why should Indonesia make them? Because Australia wants them to?
Indonesia thinks that Australia's solution is to stop accepting asylum seekers, then there will be no traffic through Indonesia.  It's hard to argue with that logic, even though Australia can't do that according to the Convention.
The Malaysia Solution was signed because Malaysia got something out of it - a reduction in their overall number of refugees, and financial assistance for those sent from Australia.  Indonesia doesn't have the same numbers of refugees, so the same "carrot" won't work.
Sorry to sound so negative.  I wish I had an answer.

MWS

July 10. 2012 06:13 PM

Ad astra

LadyinRed
Tony Abbott is so locked into saying ‘no’, that if he were to say ‘yes’ to the Houston committee, he would be seen to be losing face.  He has imprisoned himself and has thrown away the key.

Because of his ‘locked in’ position, he is confined to negativity and obstruction, by which he will be judged as the months pass.  The Houston committee will reject his ‘turn the boats back strategy’, leaving him isolated in his lonely cell.  As the effects of the carbon tax are shown to be benign, his catch cries of economic disaster, job losses, industries and towns wiped out, will be seen as gross deceptiveness.  The people will reject his Chicken Little prognostications, and most damaging for him will soon begin to laugh derisively.

Ad astra

July 10. 2012 06:21 PM

Lyn

Hi Ad

Twitterati for you.  


Mr Abbott was on ABC 24 in an IGA supermarket today talking about the Carbon, here is  a link to tell you IGA stores are closing down because of competition from Coles and Woolies

Chris Ogilvie ‏
I have just told IGA Port Douglas my family will no longer shop there due to Tony Abbott &amp; IGA's anti Carbon Tax stunt http://pic.twitter.com/DjhfarK2

Chris Ogilvie ‏
The manager of IGA Port Douglas just called, was unaware of Abbott's/IGA stunt,apologised,said he backed Carbon price

THE Townsville-based Walters IGA supermarket group is to be carved up and sold off to the highest bidder, with grocery wholesaler Metcash announcing the closure and sale of seven of the group's eight shops
www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/.../320411_news.html

ABC News 24‏@ABCNews24
Watch the Prime Minister's Community Cabinet forum live from Ipswich at 6.45pm AEST on #ABCNews24, right after The Drum. #auspol #gillard

David Kirkpatrick‏@daveyk317
Reading some of the questions to the PM on http://oursay.org . What a bunch of ignorant Trucks! Looks like the MSM has won. #

TAWNBPM‏
Abbott refusing to be involved in finding a solution, but insisting on having influence, as usual. b6... http://fb.me/Wub3UH2A

Tads‏
Confused about public debt, private debt, foreign debt and Australia's position? Read on and fear no more www.smh.com.au/.../...boo-topic-20100312-q42h.html #auspol

Abbott boosts foreign ties, Michelle Gratton
vexnews‏@vexnews
Abbott to visit China and US to boost foreign policy credentials

www.smh.com.au/.../...ign-ties-20120709-21rt6.html

SmileSmileSmile

Lyn

July 10. 2012 06:24 PM

2353

Correct AA - the fly in the ointment is the ability of Labor to publicise the failures without some ALP halfwit scoring an own goal - as demonstrated this week.

2353

July 10. 2012 06:24 PM

Ad astra

2353
I did enjoy what you wrote.  I hope that the Houston Committee will include information and reasoning along these lines.

MWS
Welcome to The Political Sword family.  Do come again.  I did not know that Indonesia does not want to host an UNHCR camp.  That makes Julian Burnside’s proposal problematic.  No doubt, the Houston Committee will consider that impediment.

Ad astra

July 10. 2012 06:28 PM

Marilyn

But there is nothing to discuss.  Anyone who comes here and asks for refugee protection is entitled to do so.   They are all asylum seekers but not all refugees.

That has always been the law.

Marilyn

July 10. 2012 06:37 PM

DMW

ToM
One of the issues I have with this site is the falsity of its claim – “Putting politicians and commentators to the verbal sword”

Yes I have always had difficulty with that. In my world it is impossible for anyone to put 'the verbal sword' to anyone else in writing.

Many have difficulty in living up to their mottos. As an example The Australian Democrats claim to be able to Reclaim the Centre.  They are doing a great job of that. How many Democrats are in any parliament in Australia?

DMW

July 10. 2012 06:52 PM

2353

Marilyn,

The current debate (here anyway) is not about who can claim asylum status (I take your point they are not all refugees) in Australia but a more humane way to treat refugees than them having t travel to Indonesia with little or no support followed by (usually) paying a huge sum of money, then forcing them onto inadequate boats and so they can make the claim.

I don't think that any of the regular commentators here disagrees that asylum seekers can legally claim asylum in any of the countries that signed the Hague Convention - regardless of where they started.

DMW,

Many have difficulty in living up to their mottos and it's not only political parties - "you're call is important to us . . ." Laughing

2353

July 10. 2012 06:56 PM

42 long

There is no doubt that some of the green's aims are a bit scary for some labour voters and that some labour achievements do not go far enough to the green side for some who have voted labour in the past but now vote green.
  We could once have viewed the greens as defining one end of the spectrum of which the other end is the "Tea Party" copiers or equivalent religious (christian), right.
   The majority of australians fit somewhere in the middle with a fluctuating swinging vote from labour-LNP and return.
   It should not be forgotten that the LNP is a coalition which has moved well to the right under Abbott. IF the success they crave does not materialise there will be a lot of instability in that alliance. W
   What is the NP anyhow? What does it stand for except to be the remnant of a rural based anti-labour party, conveniently in alliance with the Libs?( who aren't very LIBERAL anyhow)
   Currently the liberal policy seems to oppose anything the labour party do even when in the past those policies might well have  more likely come from the LIBS eg a market based carbon price rather than the more costly pick winners centrally determined, Abbott plan.
   Other than mine owners,News LTD, cigarette manufacturers, christian churches , private schools, poker machine operators etc, who is Tony looking after?
Will the ABC continue to be funded and exist under the Abbott "way". Will the GST rise?
   These are among the questions we need answers to. We get NO straight answers from this man.. Just run a propaganda war and think that is enough? How can it be? Nothing happens because Abbott says so. He is in fact wrong about most things. The only time you can be assured he does Know something is when he says" I have no SPECIFIC knowledge of "XYZ" which is lawyerspeak for " I'm lying to my back teeth now".

42 long

July 10. 2012 07:11 PM

Jason

Marilyn,
       In theory you have a point!However in reality it's a totally different thing.I don't have a vote in cabinet of the ALP i'm not a member of the greens who don't have the numbers to do anything by themselves and the Coalition aren't interested in anything.

So what is it you expect us at this blog to do? Take on the "shock jocks" on both radio and tv? I do my bit with shock jock radio here in Adelaide,but those that I do hear don't care! Bob Francis night time host was suspended for a month because he said " he wishes asylum-seekers who arrive by boat would drown."
That's the reality you need to face is yell at the Hadley's Jones and francis's of this world! the reason you don't is because they wont put you to air except to poke a bit of fun at.

  

Jason

July 10. 2012 07:13 PM

TalkTurkey

Greetings Comrades
I have been wasting or spending a lot of time on Twitter lately, getting to know it and making a few enemies. Interested in how best to deploy it to the advantage of the Left.

I have kept a bit of an eye on TPS though, this last thread is a bit of a muddy pool and I haven't sought to stir it so far. But I will, a little anyway.

First, Grannie, I must say how delighted I am to see you here again, I have seen you on PB and Twitter too as I told you last time you were here. I think I am right in thinking that you have serious arthritis in your hands, anyway I find working out what you say in Broken English* to be fun and worthwhile.

I think I remember you saying something very touching about making wedding dresses. I'm a crusty old bloke, but I'm misty just now at what you said. If I am right - as you might confirm? - I'll tell the Swordsfolks what you said. I thought it was a manifesto of perfect humble worship in simple Humanity.
  
I do believe that you are Catholic, well I have no sympathy with the Catholic Church or the crimes committed in its name and I think belief in deities is as weird as if you believed in any other occultism, but I don't tar all the Pope's followers  with the same brush, and I know you have a staunch and caring Leftish outlook personally. When it comes to this blog, of course you know, Politics comes first. For my part I wish Religion never darkened Parliament's door at all ever again, and I know for the most part you respect that too. As Abbortt does not. He uses the Get out of Gaol Free aspect of it, as I doubt that you ever do (or if you did I s'pose you could always confess it!) Anyway sincerity and respect is what you get here, if that's what you give (as you do); I know you have had a bit of aggravation on PB. On which I only lurk, but which I do value a lot. Well you know Ad astra anyway, he sets our tone, and most of the rest of us care a lot about the feelings of other goodwilled people - religion being virtually entirely irrelevant.  

Now, Patricia - Sorry not to have replied earlier about punctuation and all that but not really, I have no doubt that what you end up with is exactly what you want to say, sometimes I might change something if it was me but it's not, Dam, you're all over blogs the length and breadth of the Wide Brown Land, y'on't need any Turkey droppings really.

The last line this time is perfect. Well you know what Louis XIV said, "l'etat, c'est moi!" and you know what happened to him!

(Abbortt remember the Ides of September . . ! . .)

Keep us posted on how you are progressing. It does seem to have been a big strain, we are all hoping to Dog that you are 100% well again soon.  

So many other good-hearted people on the Sword, greetings even if not individually.

Then there's this *Marilyn*.

First utterance:
You ask the wrong questions,
(Which of course instantly establishes her qualifications beyond doubt as Utter Authority. So glad, infallibility at last! Just what we needed!)

Oddly enough she doesn't seem to know this though:
who do we think we are to believe we can have a limit on refugees asking for help?

That's an easy one, we are Australians, with the very unusual problematical blessing of corporately 'owning' a great big island. Most of which is pretty desolate, and some of which is quite crowded, and all of which is one continuous nation. Unique situation. Unlike most places, we do have some, but only some, control over how many people come here. Undeniable fact of geography.

Do we have a limit on the number of tourists who arrive here every year or do we beg for more?

You'd think Utter Authority would know that wouldn't you? Where the bloody Hell has she been I wonder?  

I started to lose faith in Marilyn's infallibility about then.

Everyone has the right to seek asylum and here is a newsflash - if the 13 million people who arrive here every year want to claim refugee status we have to let them.

Well, er, that's a bit like saying if we all had twenty sets of triplets. We actually won't and neither will the 13 million.

What if Pakistan started sending home Afghans because there are too many?  Wait, they are which is why more Afghans are seeking asylum in the west.

Yes. Well?

But then I saw this:

Try with your shrivelled imaganation Astra to put yourself in the shoes of an Afghan who has had a lifetime of war.

Now listen, you Marilyn: Pull your foul-mouthed head in.
You don't talk to Ad astra with disrespect without provocation. This is his domain, he has the respect of everybody I respect, and you have lost mine for good. Didn't take long!

You can't even spell imagination. Imagine that, when you purport to infallibility.

You purport further to occupy higher moral ground than Ad astra. You asked earlier who do we think we are, well wtf do you think you are? I'll tell you: Anyone who is as gratuitously insulting as you have proven yourself is on a moral par with Anal Jones.

So after that, I figured that this Marilyn's thoughts could not possibly be worth considering further, so instead I scanned down a bit for confirmation
  
So many here seem to think it's just a matter of us being as vicious as the taliban and the Afghans will stay home, but we pretend to be a nation that observes human rights.

Many who come here to seek asylum have been in exile for years on end, some have been kicked out of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Malaysia, Indonesia and we want to kick them out to and play human trading ping pong around the world.

Under the law we have zero choice about allowing asylum seekers into the country and we cannot and do not have a quota for asylum seekers.

And as 75% of all asylum seekers fly here just what is it you are whining about? 35,000 people in 35 years arriving by sea.

Spare me the stupid questions, they have been asked so many times by whining scared old men I have lost count.

What are you?   A chicken coward terrified of a few thousand refugees?

Because the thing is we don't own the countries we want to dump human beings in so we can expect those countries to return the favour.

Or is racist whiney Australia so precious and superior we think we can do whatever we like and bugger the law and human rights.

>This little piggy said we we we . . .
Yes WE you nasty-tempered self-righteous hypocrite, not everybody else but you!

None of you bothered to find out the facts, do that and get back to me.

>Why, you cocky up-yourself holier-than-thou prig!

Go, get an endocephalotractocotomy Marilyn.

*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsyBEv1dbLo





TalkTurkey

July 10. 2012 07:37 PM

Marilyn

Yeah, yeah, what a ridiculous rant.  You proved everything I said to be exactly true.

I don't say anything that I know to be a lie, unlike this partisan blog.

And we cannot stop one single person getting on a boat anywhere in the world because it is not our right to do so.

Marilyn

July 10. 2012 07:49 PM

DMW

2353
Your call is important to us ...

Boom, Tish and a ting Smile

DMW

July 10. 2012 08:09 PM

42 long

Just making a general comment , IF anyone finds they are required to insult almost EVERYONE somewhere for the way they express their opinions, that THEY may be on the wrong site, and should best use their talents elsewhere.
  I have visited quite a few where the general tone doesn't suit me and I don't go there.
  This site has depth and I personally don't expect the majority to totally agree with what I say. The best you can hope for is that your thought music will be considered by most and approved/agreed by some. It's a pooled resource of constructive thought, and exchange of ideas, or sometimes a bit of reinforcement of support
We have some "non genuine stirrers" that come here to "bait" rather than be constructive. That may genuinely be their nature ( as the devils advocate role for example) or worse, to create disfunction, but they declare themselves over time.

42 long

July 10. 2012 08:12 PM

Miglo

Jason, is that idiot Bob Francis still around?  Incredible.

Miglo

July 10. 2012 08:32 PM

Jason

42 long,
       I don't know about you, but for two days all I've heard is it's unlawful for us as a country to do this that or the other because the UN charter we signed says so, despite the realities that are there!
I then try to get my head around the former USSR now Russia and China who not only sit in the UN but are on the security council who both have a shocking records on human rights yet see fit to veto actions in places like Syria.
Yes shame on us and shame on those who hold the UN up as some sort of virtuous institution who's member countries don't even practice in their own countries what they preach!  

Jason

July 10. 2012 08:34 PM

DMW


Marilyn @ 7:37 PM
... we cannot stop one single person getting on a boat anywhere in the world because it is not our right to do so.

Exactly.

Nor can we stop people from smoking or drinking, picking up an automatic rifle and walking down the street randomly killing people.

We can provide incentives for people not to do these things.

The point of this discussion as I understand it is, what incentives can we offer so that people do not take the journey to Australia on leaky boats? Leaky boats that offer a one in twenty chance that the passenger while die from drowning.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are some, and I don't think there many if any commenting here, who only wish to Stop The Boats for xenophobic and racist reasons. There are some who wish to do it so that they can ignore the plight of those less fortunate than us or maybe wish to ignore the fallout for waging war.

I don't disagree with much if anything of what you have written. I do take umbrage at the way way you have put some of it and characterised everyone here  as idiots and worse.

Are we capable of striking some common ground so that we can move toward discussing the differences in a commonsense  mature and adult way?

At the moment I beginning to suspect because of your passionate belief in the rightness of your view which I supect is the only possible sensible and decent view in your mind only, you are falling into schoolyard bullying tactics of name calling and invective.

I'll take you back to the schoolyard for a moment:
Ms M Manson My dad has taken in 103 different refugees and cared for them and set them up to be fantastic Australian citizens. Lick that.

DMW My dad hasn't wiped his bum for forty years. LICK THAT


Pointless and trite. Continuing to name call and insult is also pointless and trite and will not win you any friends or converts.

If you wish to find some common ground and then discuss the differences in a reasonable way then I will take great pleasure in discussing with you.

If you want to name call and be a spiteful schoolyard brat go talk with Tony Abbott and many of his Liberal Party colleagues. They might be able to teach some new tricks in schoolyard politics.

DMW

July 10. 2012 08:39 PM

Jason

Miglo,
     As hard as it is to believe he's still here and doesn't look like he'll retire or be sacked anytime soon! 50 years or something I think he says he's been in radio.

Jason

July 10. 2012 08:55 PM

DMW

A slight sidestep but sort of germane.

China questions Australia's asylum policy ABCNews
The Chinese government has raised Australia's asylum seeker policy at human rights talks in Canberra.
Representatives from the Australian and Chinese governments meet every year for human rights talks.
...
"A Chinese leader once said there is no best human rights, only better human rights," Mr Cui said.

www.abc.net.au/.../4122096

DMW

July 10. 2012 08:58 PM

DMW

And totally off topic

NormanK
I hope there are not to many overwhelming issues for you at the moment.

Thinking of you and missing your presence.

Hope you know if there is anything we could do to to assist we would do it at the drop of a hat or quicker.

DMW

July 10. 2012 09:00 PM

Patriciawa

DMW - that TPS metaphorical goal of 'putting politicians and  commentators to the verbal sword' was what first attracted me to this site.  I think that with AA's leading of the debate with his posts and Lyn's linking of us to the www and twitterverse we do a half decent job of that.

The Daily Derp today http://thedailyderp.net/tag/murdoch-virus/  reminded me of how inspired I was many decades ago by an English teacher by the idea that 'the pen is mightier than the sword' and how preferable civilised debate is actual war.

Sadly, we've been recently reminded though that the pen can often be destructive if badly wielded.   The penned insults and abuse which are new to this little community have
done nothing to advance the cause the writer claims to be championing.

They have achieved one thing though - unanimity amongst us, who don't always agree, in wishing that she would go away!  We are all convinced of the morality of the case for people seeking asylum.   How best to achieve that in this lucky country is surely not well argued by abuse of the hosts giving one an opportunity to promote their cause.

Patriciawa

July 10. 2012 09:01 PM

Ad astra reply

DMW, ToM
I'm sure you could find dictionary definitions of 'verbal' that correspond with your understanding of its meaning.

But I have always distinguished between 'verbal' and 'oral', the former designating the written word; the latter the spoken.  In support of my contention, I quote the definition from Wikipedia:  Verbal: Pertaining to language or the use of words in general (be it spoken or written) as opposed to non-verbal expression, or to spoken words in particular (although, this is usually a common misuse where "oral" is the correct term, e.g. "oral" v. "written" contract -- rather than "verbal" v. "written"). 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbal

It's pedantic I know, but I did choose  'verbal' deliberately.   

Whether the site lives up to its 'motto', is altogether another question.

Ad astra reply

July 10. 2012 09:09 PM

DMW

Hi Ad,
I often comment here well you learn something everyday (if you are willing).

I accept your point on the difference between verbal and oral. And thanks for another teaching/lesson. Smile

Now I wonder if I can verbalise my oral thoughts as I often talk to myself when taking in the verbal output here Tong

DMW

July 10. 2012 09:11 PM

jaycee

I,ve been away for a couple of days out of internet range so will have to catch up.
On the subject of one; B. Francis : broad(in every sense of the word!)caster..After wishing a distastful end to the refugees, he was suspended, so went for (so I,m informed) a cruising holiday to Scandinavia...seems he became greviously ill on board and had to be airlifted(evidently it took THREE chinooks to lift him!!)to hospital to be saved....poetic justice, I believe it is called.
Sadly, despite all her good intentions, Marilyn is behaving like someone who is spinning around with a long piece of timber in a crowd, hitting friend and foe alike in her blind anger. I suspect her youthfull irrationality is letting her down, as there is basic agreement with the laws, but the problem comes with realistically enacting them. I think any primary teacher could tell us of the difficulties in moving a busload of kids from point A to B without the most rigorous discipline and proceedure. Here we are talking tens of thousands of strangers, of differing cultures and ethnicity and religion...AND, not all entirely friendly or sympathetic to eachother, even if in the same desperate situation. AND with the added dimension of at least 50% of Australians (a lot of them immigrants themselves) not wanting them!
As for "Tom"....I,ve been thinking..rather than reject and ridicule his agent provocateur pose..let us "embrace" him, and "adopt" him as our own right-wing "pet"...much like some fundamentalist christian groups "adopt" converted bikies as a sort of status object, a "star rating" kind of thing. Tom can be our own "reacionary rat-bag"...we can hold him up at times and say ;"Look, here's our right-winger, now lets' see yours". Oh yes!, they'll get jealous over there at "vex news' and have to admit ; "My..he's a big one!!"  

jaycee

July 10. 2012 09:19 PM

DMW

Hi PWA'
... that TPS metaphorical goal of 'putting politicians and  commentators to the verbal sword' was what first attracted me to this site.

Somewhat similar. I do recall that I was somewhat isolated in the Middle East when I first came across The Sword and found it helpful in catching up with what was going on back home none the least because of the links that cut little Tweety offered.

In my comment to ToM I didn't use the #sarcasm hashtag to indicate I deliberately misinterpreted his take on the supposed failure of the site to live up to its' motto.

DMW

July 10. 2012 09:21 PM

DMW

Please excuse me Tweety while I but in on your Twitterati but this is important

Phillip Adams ‏@PhillipAdamsABC
Happy birthday Gough. 96 tomorrow Known him for 46 years. Maintain the age!!!.

DMW

July 10. 2012 09:22 PM

Ad astra reply

42 long, TT, Patriciawa
I do appreciate your supportive comments and the good sense your words convey.

I'm calling it a day.

Ad astra reply

July 10. 2012 09:28 PM

Psyclaw

I note  a post above in which ToM supports Marilyn 100%.

Marilyn ...... you must flee from this site ASAP. With friends like ToM you need no enemies.

A couple of days ago I stated that you always talk a passionate "truth" as you see it.

Tom's raison d'être here is to launch any smear he can against the government, and like Abbott he is very relaxed in his concepts of "truth".  He may wish you to join a cabal of misleaders.

Psyclaw

July 10. 2012 09:54 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Ad Astra - ”Whether the site lives up to its 'motto', is altogether another question.

Take my word for it, you don’t, and I agree with Patricia on this occasion -“[i}”we do a half decent job of that[/i]

Though giving you credit for meeting half your objective is very generous.

Tom of Melbourne

July 10. 2012 11:04 PM

Jason

GhostWhoVotes ‏@GhostWhoVotes

#Newspoll Best handle the asylum-seeker issue: ALP 17 (-4) L/NP 37 (-10) Other 13 (+1) None 12 (+5) #auspol

GhostWhoVotes ‏@GhostWhoVotes

#Newspoll At least partly to blame for asylum-seeker policy impasse: ALP 66 L/NP 60 GRN 57 #auspol

GhostWhoVotes ‏@GhostWhoVotes

#Newspoll Most to blame for asylum-seeker policy impasse: ALP 32 L/NP 28 GRN 16 #auspol

Jason

July 10. 2012 11:11 PM

Truth Seeker

Jaycee.
Good one, right on the money.
Cheers

Truth Seeker

July 10. 2012 11:13 PM

TalkTurkey

Happy 96th Birthday Dear Gough Whitlam

Thank you for making Australia's so much fairer a society.

It's Time we got that same spirit going again.

But Labor is still Labor, Don't You Worry About That!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jykIqQxEOw

TalkTurkey

July 11. 2012 12:09 AM

Patriciawa

Yes, TT, and we can do it again!  So much achieved by Whitlam in those few short years.   This is certainly not the time to throw in the towel.   Look at all we've done even with a hung parlt, and we still have another year to go.

Mind you,  we have to deal with a different voter mindset today. Have a read of this www.themonthly.com.au/comment-australian-democracy-and-right-party-amanda-lohrey-5628

Someone somewhere recommended this today.  Thanks to them, cos it's a good read.

Though I still think major threat to our democracy is control of the media by the Murdoch empire.  Without their support Abbott would have long gone.  

Some truth telling on 7.30 this evening re boats.

Patriciawa

July 11. 2012 02:05 AM

paul walter

psyclaw's 9.28 comment is interesting. I read it a bit that way also. Too many neolibs and hacks have exploited the issue and the rightful concern of people like Marilyn, for quite debased ulterior motives.

paul walter

July 11. 2012 06:03 AM

Marilyn

Those sheep
by Kate Wildermuth, Marilyn Shepherd and Anon. from Armidale
September - October 2003
Let's move forward to the next election campaign. Is it possible that now the flow of asylum seekers has dried up the Howard Government will turn it's attention to sheep?
We can picture the campaign:
1.  The sheep will be accused of throwing their lambs overboard. The government will say that they have photos and a video as absolute proof it happened. We'll be told that these are not the type of sheep to be allowed into Australia. There will be statements such as 'they will never set hoof on our shores'.
2.  They'll be accused of being queue jumping sheep. What about all the other sheep in the sheep camps waiting to be allowed in?
3.  They'll claim that if we take these sheep we'll be swamped by thousands of others wanting to come here. Merino Vanstone will present statistics to show that Australia is the most generous of all towards refugee sheep.
4.  The sheep will be attacked for not having passports and proper documentation or having thrown it overboard.
5.  We'll be told that it is cruel to allow the sheep out of detention on the ship so they can do what normal lambs do. Merino Vanstone will say the detention of the lambs is for their own good so they won't be disappointed when she locks them up again.
6.  We'll be told that locking them up is necessary because it will deter others.
7.  They'll say that these sheep paid sheeple smugglers. They must be wealthy sheep. Genuine sheep don't pay smugglers.
8.  We'll hear how a plane flew directly over the boat containing the sheep but saw nothing.
9.  The sheep will be accused of being potential terrorists with links to Osama Baa Laden.
10.  They'll say these sheep could not possibly love their lambs. Why on earth would they not stay on a strife torn farm if they loved them?
11.  We'll be told they could be hiding weapons under their wool.
12.  The media will be told not to photograph them or it will sheepify them.
13.  We'll be told that they only had lambs to blackmail the government.
14.  NZ will take them - they can't get enough of 'em.
15.  They'll be accused of trying to take advantage of our limited grass and then bleating to the elite.
16.  The government will ram it home that they are so baaaaad that most of them will get the chop anyway and not to listen to the woolly thinking of the sheepitarians.
17.  Most Australians will follow like ...yep, you guessed it.
18.  And absolutely no-one will tell the PM.
  
Back to sievx.com

Marilyn

July 11. 2012 06:07 AM

Marilyn

But Jason, there is no impasse, that is a media invention.

Everyone has the right to seek asylum from persecution is rock solid law all over the world.

How can there be an impasse.

Marilyn

July 11. 2012 07:20 AM

janice

  Bugger, bugger, bugger. My new specs have done nothing to improve my vision - probably it is a bit worse. Frown

Because I just cannot read the blurry script for more than a few minutes without my eyes feeling like burnt holes in a blanket, I can only offer my opinion on this 'bloody boat invasion' topic.

What pisses me off, and I suspect a good many other people, is that these boat people are using our generosity and compassion against us to force their way into our country.  It pisses me off no end that they are also forcing us to go the way of the coalition to use methods abhorrent to our principles of extending a helping hand and giving all a fair go.  

I have come to the conclusion that we cannot throw out our compassion and go the coalition route and come out the other end feeling anything but guilt and disgust.  Therefore, it is my opinion that the government should withdraw from the outdated Refugee Convention and refuse to give refugee status under any circumstances to people who persist in forcing their way through the back door by using boats to gain entrance.  The Government should not even 'process' these people but issue them with very TPV until they either go home voluntarily, can be deported to a UNHCR refugee camp, or deported to their own country when it is deemed safe.

The Government should then ramp up our refugee intake from those camps around the world where there are people who've been languishing in limbo for years and those who are suffering untold misery in places like Africa.  This country can only take as many refugees as is sustainable for our economy.

Apologies in advance for any errors and omissions.

janice

July 11. 2012 07:38 AM

Lyn

Today’s Links

Sinking Abbott, Independent Australia
IF EVER Australians needed a reason not to vote for a Government led by Tony Abbott, the Opposition Leader’s performance with Barrie Cassidy on the ABC’s Insiders program on Sunday
morning was reason enough.
www.independentaustralia.net/.../

Tony Abbot under the influence of one of his many political delusions, Clarence Girl, North Coast Voices
Oh dear, here is Opposition Leader Tony Abbott displaying his ignorance concerning the constitutional implications of the oath set out below.Because when push comes to shove over turning back the boats, it is convention not law which has naval vessels
northcoastvoices.blogspot.com.au/.../...ne-of.html

The Murdoch Virus Part 4 – Hackgate, Dan Gulbery, The Daily Derp
The scandal which involves the hacking of people’s private phones, has been going on for over a decade. At first it involved hacking into the phones of celebrities and members of the Royal Family. Although arrests and convictions were made over this, the general
thedailyderp.net/.../

Social Media and Australian Politics , Alex Schlotzer
There are only a handful of blogs that carry influence and most of these are connected to the mainstream media, though I expect this will broaden out more as the political blogosphere in Australia matures. That is not to say, however, that there aren’t some great political blogs but it is questionable as to the weight of influence
http://alexschlotzer.wordpress.com/

ALP think tanks sprout, but who’s talking policy?, Andrew Cook, The Power Index
In some recent articles uploaded to Challenge, former Anna Bligh chief of staff Murray Watt gives his take on how to win back lost tradies, while Osmond Chiu tears strips off the fallacy of social impact bonds. But the most significant intervention came from United
www.thepowerindex.com.au/.../201207101539

Roxon High Court Dilemma, Andrew Lynch, Inside Story
Roxon’s candour about her wish to enhance diversity has, so far, aroused little objection from the profession or the public. But it will be interesting to see whether this is provoked by the announcement of the new justices themselves. As broader political
http://inside.org.au/roxon-high-court-dilemma/

The Greens; Principle or Nothing, Archie, Archie Archives
Marriages do not survive for long if one partner publicly and openly sides with an outsider. We did it once with the ETS. We voted with a group who are totally opposed to everything we stand for. Our partners forgave us.Now we have done it again with the Asylum Seeker
archiearchive.wordpress.com/.../

Labor 1 Liberal 2 Greens 3 - The Senate Effect, Poliquant. Com
On a Senate election based on the current polls, Labor preferences will have a limited and vital impact on the make-up of the Senate, specifically in WA. Conversely, Green preferences will not influence Senate contest as the Greens score either just under a quota, which leaves them in the count until the end ensuring their preferences
poliquant.com/.../

WE DON’T NEED TO TALK ABOUT KEVIN, Tracey Spicer, The Hoopla
To call Therese Rein a smart woman is like saying James Magnussen is a pretty good swimmer. Her international employment agency Ingeus is worth $210 million. When Kevin Rudd was Prime Minister, they were pitched as a power couple
http://thehoopla.com.au/talk-kevin/

I Have A Question And My Question Is This-, Tim Dunlop, The Kings Tribune
a couple of journalists finally called him out on a few things. Where have they been since he took over from Malcolm Turnbull? Abbott’s idiocy was just as apparent back then but the entire press gallery decided to give him a pass. And a pedestal. And a megaphone. And a  medal for his far-too-frequently-exposed hairy chest.
www.kingstribune.com/.../1420-i-have-a-question-and-my-question-is-this

Councils are Never to be Trusted “Part 1″, Wayne Brooks, Curiosity and Challenge
Your Council will up front tell you there is a fee for the approval, this will vary in amount but its for the approval to build. This covers some guy reading the letter, checking your plans and deciding if its okay and saying yes. But if there is something wrong
wrb330.wordpress.com/.../

Tony Abbott as Popeye the Sailorman gets a walloping!, Patriciawa, Café Whispers
speechifying in front of cameras and before audiences, rationalising and lying his way out of every objection that was put to his policy of destructive negativity, I was astounded that so many in the the media accepted his hypocrisy, prevarications and arrogance as
cafewhispers.wordpress.com/.../tony-abbott-as-popeye-the-sailorman-gets-a-walloping

Labor's Spectacular Own Goal, Jeff Sparrow,
The concerted offensive launched by Labor heavyweights at the Greens this week centres on the supposed gulf between the ideas of the Greens and those of ordinary Australians. The Greens will never "represent mainstream working Australian values", says NSW Labor General Secretary Sam Dastyari
newmatilda.com/.../labors-spectacular-own-goal

Coalition NBN notes: Some truth, mostly fiction, Renai LeMay, Delimiter
although its document used substantial detail to heavily criticise the Government’s NBN policy, it does not outline virtually any detail of how the Coalition’s rival policy would function, including what technology would be used, what services would be guaranteed  
delimiter.com.au/.../

Posts from the ‘Daily Fix’ Category
australianpoliticstv.org/category/daily-fix/

Today’s Front Pages
Australia Newspaper Front Pages for 11 July 2012
www.frontpagestoday.co.uk/index.cfm

Lyn

July 11. 2012 08:42 AM

Ad astra

LYN'S DAILY LINKS updated: www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...-DAILY-LINKS.aspx

Ad astra

July 11. 2012 09:20 AM

Michael

Finally FINALLY people are starting to see Malcolm Turnbull as the hollow mainchancer he's always been.

His 'performance' on Q&A revealed just how far he's sucked at the Abbott teat of dissimulation and outright nonsense, from the "fresh election" to the 'how can I go back to being an also-ran backbencher by actually supporting something I believe in?' line on same sex marriage, Talcy Malcy puffed and bluffed, rolled his vowels, and slid into place a cabbage patch smirk so self-congratulatory he looked like he might even be prepared to allow someone other than himself to pat his back for once.

Malcolm Turnbull as PM would be so involved in reading his reviews he'd never actually do anything.

People who've fallen for his 'successful businessman/nature's gentleman' schtick are the wide-eyed provincials who want a Smooth Daddy to lead them, just as prepared to forgo thinking through the issues that confront this nation as were those who went with the 'Leave it all to Little Johnny' brigade.

His intellectual windbaggery was exposed as he set out to hog the panel with his 'let me frame the argument' line, which translates as, "Malcolm explains".

Well, Malcolm explains nothing particularly well, as he shifts and waffles and slips and elides - and now that he's outed himself as a signed-up Abbott acolyte, he's as one with Morrison and Mirabella.

Puffed up on the front bench of hack inconsequents.

Michael

July 11. 2012 09:30 AM

TalkTurkey

Lyn
I can never find praise high enough for your Daily Links. It is an amazingly educative work.

I know you don't write long critical dissertations like some but your links are richer fare far than any one person be he the Bard himself could ever provide.

I once read a Don Camillo story where a poor artist paints a portrait of the local whore in a small Italian town. It is so beautiful that she is awed, she has never thought of herself as beautiful and she has always been treated as lowlife. She says reverently of his painting, "But it's beautiful!" He says, "Is it better to see beauty or to have it?"

You are the artist btw, just in case there might be any confusion! You reveal the beauty of others' writings, not only the beauty though, the satires and the hypocrisies and the joys, the heads-up on urgent information of all the most poignant writers around, and unlike the issues themselves or the lass's fleeting beauty, your work remains in the archives of TPS and Australia as long as records exist. Daily history.

I know it's all obvious, what I just said, but Dam, you do it every day, and it is my daily education, and I am one of thousands now, given all your links. On behalf of us all, thank you so much.

And thank you personally for goading me to Twitter. A forum for feistiness!    

TalkTurkey

July 11. 2012 09:35 AM

Psyclaw


Michael

Well said.

I especially agree with:

People who've fallen for his 'successful businessman/nature's gentleman' schtick are the wide-eyed provincials who want a Smooth Daddy to lead them, just as prepared to forgo thinking through the issues that confront this nation as were those who went with the 'Leave it all to Little Johnny' brigade.


Nevertheless IMHO he is far ahead of any of the rest of them.

Just imagine Pyne, Morriscum, Mirabella, Dutton, Andrews, Bishop (take your pick), Hunt, Bob Baldwin!!!!!!!!!eek as PM.

Most of those have no chance but in the absence of Abbott someone has to be the alternate PM.

Oh. I forgot Sloppy Joe..... another "surely not".

Psyclaw

July 11. 2012 09:52 AM

Ad astra reply

TT
I applaud your beautifully crafted comments about Lyn's magnificent daily contribution to TPS.  Her links enrich us immeasurably.  She has fashioned TPS into a hub for the Fifth Estate, a place where so many come to radiate out to the rich collection of material in the blogosphere.  Thank you TT for your acknowledgement of our Lyn.

And thank you Lyn for all you do to inform us all, every day.  You are a gem.

Ad astra reply

July 11. 2012 10:15 AM

jaycee

After spending the last two days with aged people who are entirely "informed" by talk-back MSM of the likes of Jones and Francis et all, I conclude there is a deliberate program by the LNP. propagandists along the lines of the worst of Goebbles or De Stefani to promote doubt through lies and deceipt..we are facing a concerted effort to promote the "legitimate" election of a fascist regiem.
Jones and his ilk are well educated, yet they sprout foolishness, ergo, it is a deliberate, calculated move to promote Abbott with emotialist propaganda directed toward the most vulnerable. Therefore we must find and publish online all manner of items and articles and bits and pieces of information (but only true bits!) that will bring into disrepute those pushers of fascist intent. THAT or suffer the consequences!
So get out there and seek out those bits of incriminating and demonising evidence..we are not dealing with "fair and polite" company here, we are dealing with potential psychopaths!...show no mercy now, because as history has shown us already..THEY will not!  

jaycee

July 11. 2012 10:31 AM

42 long

It makes you realise how far to the "looney" right the Abbott mob are when a successfull merchant banker is too left for them. They believe he should join the labour party.
  With Turnbull as leader they would cement a win which is risky with ABBOTT, but the win at all costs, take no prisoners tough guy ( but not really, he runs from scrutiny and bullies Julia) image our rusty iron man projects has them captivated and blinded.
   Malcolm only looks good because he is being compared to someone who is weird and really scary and cannot be trusted to say anything you can believe. Turnbull is not good in politics, he doesn't quite have the "feel" for it.
    Those who thought a ray of conscience might have shone through a party totally lacking in it, with Mal washer are doomed to disappointment there.
   " Wishy Washer" seems appropriate for a description of him.
   The LNP preselection process seems to be consistent. They are uniformly uninspiring in the people and the promise.
   perhaps Clive Palmer will liven it up

42 long

July 11. 2012 10:34 AM

TalkTurkey

Janice Dear, Dear oh Dear, you must *see* about having an operation. (No Pun intended, it just got there of its own accord!) Please keep us posted. We treasure you, Ad's #1 Platinum Contributor, you have too many too-good friends here to lose track of.  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jason

You do have a way with words, cutting through piles of BS like a Dingo Digger. And there has been a good bit here this time, misdirected and immoderate invective from one source dominating what might have been clearer waters but which she turned into merde. Good on you Jason, Voice of Facts Of Life. No way to talk sense with that sort of harpy screeching at us, oh well, just read Ad astra's lead again, there isn't really any more to be said, that's why I didn't. What I do know is that the Greens have cut off everyone's nose, including future drownees, to spite all our faces; the Abborttians are dead-set terrified of any reasonable strategy being developed; and the only body with genuine goodwill and the amply-demonstrated preparedness for compromise is the Australian Labor Party.

Fie on the Greens leadership. A bas the whole bloody Abborttians. Hooray for Labor's cross-party efforts, may the Abborttionless Committee come up with a *passable* compromise. That's up to less stupidity in the heads of the Greens now obviously. Abbortt will just say NO NO NO NO NO NO NO to the end of the line


Recaptcha: arsiol toleration    Yeah I reckon!      

TalkTurkey

July 11. 2012 10:40 AM

Michael

Psyclaw, hi.

My vote's for 'Sloppy Joe', because there are apparently Coalition people who consider he is a real leadership contender - it was him, Abbott and Turnbull last time, after all.

In the Coalition, there are enough MP's and Senators who can't abide Turnbull, so Hockey is seen as a non-rabid leader who can take a 'can't lose against Gillard' Coalition into government without Abbott's poisonous narrowmindedness setting the nation back once the Conservatives are in office.

Is that why I'd support Hockey?

Nope, I'd wholeheartedly, enthusiastically, "go for it guys!" support him because he'd make such a hash of the election campaign that Labor would win the unwinnable election.

Just watch Sloppy Joe's face in parliament when one of his 'unanswerable', 'gotcha' questions is comprehensively dismantled by whoever in Government he's thrown it at.

Whiny whingy, whingy whiny.

Now that's a guy I want to see leading the Coalition out in front of the electorate 24 hours a day, seven days a week of an Federal election campaign.

Leave alone the anecdotal claims that Australians won't elect a fat man, something said to scuttle Beazley across his leadership years - 'nice enough guy, jolly even, but no self discipline'.

Michael

July 11. 2012 10:50 AM

42 long

Jaycee, has it right. This propaganda machine would be a lesson for Goebbells in how to do it better. Old impressionable people scared into screaming in rage. people who should know better just accepting the "This is  a BAD government " line. When you ask them why the government is bad they really can't give a reason with substance.
   The lowest act is to deliberately confuse people. Misinformation is at the base of it. It's a deliberate tactic of the LNP. Hitler burnt books for the same purpose.
  This really is a period of very dirty politics, and with the MSM up to their necks in it. We are paying dearly for the structure of media in australia, with the loss of the most important thing INTEGRITY.and a monopoly. We don't have a free press. You have different names for the Papers but they sing the same song when required
  IF Abbott gets in, the changes will be in a direction australia should never go, and may not be reversible  in any simple way. It's the same way the USA will go if Romney gets in. More divided, more extreme.
  The labour party have no fear of facts coming out. The LNP don't deal in facts EVER just in platitudes, and propaganda. The truth is their enemy, under Abbott.

42 long

July 11. 2012 10:57 AM

LadyInRed

Lyn I would like to add to what has already been said I really appreciate your links. Whenever I get a spare minute I go to one or the other and it saves me such a lot of time.

Marilyn you said "And we cannot stop one single person getting on a boat anywhere in the world because it is not our right to do so."

Marilyn I think we get that.

And its true we can't stop them from boarding a vessel.... but what we can do is say we don't like people profiting from these peoples plight, we can say we don't want people getting on leaky boats, we can say we don't want to have to expect our navy to be put in harms way rescuing people and having to go through the trauma (and it is tremendously traumatic) of pulling dead bodies out of the sea. Doing that kind of work comes at great personal cost, and a cost to the nation.

I think that has really been much of the argument now from the government "stop the people smuggling". Abbott started the "Stop the boats campagne" and I think in doing so he changed the tone of the debate, and I think the government has helped by sending mixed messages. Politics has gotten in the way. But I think even if we had bi-partisan agreement that we deal with asylum seekers onshore, properly, there will still always be people who will prefer to take their chances and risk a boat journey, and so we go back to the beginning.....by doing that they perpetuate the trade in people smuggling, they risk the mental and physical health of those sent to rescue them and they risk death themselves.

LadyInRed

July 11. 2012 11:34 AM

Patriciawa

Great stuff, Michael!  Every word a gem there, but I particularly liked Malcolm explains nothing particularly well, as he shifts and waffles and slips and elides .

I was too tired Monday night to define exactly what it was about his performance which so disturbed me, watching him wave his hands around trying to frame the argument and hog centre stage.  He made some outrageous comments about the government while pretending to be objective.

What a phony!  Sorry, Psyclaw, he is hardly ahead of the rest of them.  We saw that on Monday.   He is a hollow man, as self-serving as any of them. Anyone with reasonable self respect would have refused to serve under Abbott and alongside the rest of them.  At least within the ALP we have people like Lindsay Tanner and John Faulkner prepared to speak their minds about the need for reform within their party.  But they are still identifiable as good Labor people.  

Isn't this a great gathering this morning?  Jason and 42 long and Psyclaw and TT and Michael and Janice and jaycee and AA, one after the other!  I imagine DMW and others will be here later in the day, but meantime it's great to have a read amongst friends without the interruption of gratuitous insults from some who disagree with us.  I don't object to give and take in discussion, it helps us all refine our thinking. Is NormanK alright, by the way?  Did I miss his latest news?  

I am sure Lyn is hovering around here too, or does flying around the twitterverse have to take her away?  I hope she has read TT's paean of praise for her efforts, seconded by so many others like LadyInRed.  I am always amazed at how Lyn manages to suggest the essence of various posts in her links. That represents some very extensive reading and good thinking often very early in the morning.  WA time means I often post as late as 2 a.m est. It's amazing to wake up a few hours later and have the pith of one's argument there on the the screen with due accreditation.

Yes, Michael, I agree with you on Sloppy Joe too.  He deserves to become LOTO and to be slaughtered daily by constant exposure of his image in the media reflecting his sloth and hypocrisy.  His speech in the debate on the Oakeshott Bill was shameful.

Patriciawa

July 11. 2012 11:59 AM

Lyn

Good Morning Ad and Everybody

Twitterverse

Australian Media‏
Fairfax redundancy details announced today: STAFF at Fairfax Media will today be presented with the details of r... http://bit.ly/S0f0ZP

Jack Sumner‏
Brisbane heckler trashes Gillard's education address www.dailytelegraph.com.au/.../story-fncvk70o-1226423135287 But nothing other to report that might reflect well on our Govt.

Chris Ogilvie ‏
IGA update: IGA's managing director just called:stated he is pro carbon price & CC action,there is a board meeting today re Abbott's stunt,

Ken ‏
Are retailers ripping us off http://bit.ly/OYfmju

vexnews‏
Asked who was paying Ashby's costs, his spokesman said: ''We are not disposed to answer this question at this stage'' http://bit.ly/OtVOjt

National Times‏
Abbott resolute on boats despite military warnings www.nationaltimes.com.au/.../...0120711-21umf.html via @

Malcolm Farr‏
Admiral Ray Griggs knows the reality of tuning boats back. Tony Abbott knows the theory. The Punch: http://bit.ly/O0ZQyA

Karina Carvalho‏
Tony Abbott: there's a civil war within the Labor Party. Labor's problem isn't the Greens, it's Labor @BreakfastNews

paul donnelly‏
Fear campaign outweighs tax - Labor | Top Stories | BigPond News: bigpondnews.com/.../...ghs_tax_-_Labor_770009.html the Angel of doom

Ken ‏
CRAZY Tony Abbott's obstructionism re asylum seekers & Coalition's vote for onshore processing is causing over crowding http://yhoo.it/NjIyQf

Sandy‏
The arrogance of tonyabbottmhr ! Abbott to meet expert panel but will not alter boat stance www.smh.com.au/.../...t-stance-20120710-21tyo.html via @smh

Alan Kerlin‏
. "the Greens claim to share our values" How can Greens share something the ALP dumped for votes? #auspol m.canberratimes.com.au/.../...-20120710-21tyq.html

Jack Sumner‏
Navy won't turn back boats if lives at risk www.dailytelegraph.com.au/.../story-fndo28a5-1226422842889 Takes genius but Abbott has managed to put himself offside with the Tele.

SmartCompany‏
Darrell Lea employees "beside themselves": what the collapse means for them and Darrell Lea's landlords http://bit.ly/NfQJOT

SmartCompany‏
Treasury blames small business for Australia's poor productivity http://bit.ly/O24pZo

vexnews‏
Consumer confidence has risen 3.7% in July as interest rate cuts & petrol price falls lowered costs http://bit.ly/POWrdR #ausecon

SmileSmile

Lyn

July 11. 2012 12:08 PM

Ad astra

Folks
What a great set of comments you have provided this morning.  Your remarks about Malcolm Turnbull and Joe Hockey as alternatives to the gross leader we have in Tony Abbott, highlights the problem the Coalition has.  As all the alternatives fall short, while it is ahead in the polls it will stick with the awful, devious liar Abbott.  The prospect of such a ruthless, heartless, pugilistic person becoming PM is too awful to contemplate.  

Ad astra

July 11. 2012 12:18 PM

jj

42 Long,

You are a disgrace! To compare the actions of the LNP to that of Hitler is disgusting. Obviously the person who maintains this blog condones your views as nothing has been said to reprimand or take down your comments.

To think the left attempts to take the moral high ground in contentious debates when they come up with crap like this!

jj

July 11. 2012 12:21 PM

jj

Michael,

This is the sort of rhetoric people like you peddled when Abbott became leader. Now he is the most successful opposition leader in Australian history and could well become Australia's most dominant electoral performer since WW2.

Be careful what you say. If Hockey ever does become the leader of the Liberal party he may be well be a great success!

jj

July 11. 2012 12:42 PM

42 long

  Don't attack the messagerJJ. Heed the message. Your man has feet of clay and he is the DISCRACE.

42 long

July 11. 2012 12:52 PM

Lyn

Hi to my Friends

Thankyou Ad Astra for your kind words this morning, you are always so easy to please.
"TPS into a hub for the Fifth Estate, " there is no doubt TPS has a highly respected reputation on the blogosphere.

Talk Turkey you loyality is second to none.  Thankyou for your kind thoughts and words, you make me humble. As Ad Astra said
"beautifully crafted comments"

Lady in Red you are always kind and appreciative with your demure approach matching your demure Gravatar, a beautiful lady.

Patricia how delightful you are back to yourself again.  Your latest pome is delightful.  I have to say though Popeye is admired, treasured and enjoyed by the multitude he is way to good for Abbott.
"I hope she has read TT's" Patricia you can be assured I do not miss one word that is posted on TPS.

Jaycee and 42long you two are always great value, I love your opinions.

Michael your reports are adorable, you never fail to delight. thankyou for your bad Abbott reports we need them.

Patricia said "Isn't this a great gathering this morning?  Jason and 42 long and Psyclaw and TT and Michael and Janice and jaycee and AA"

TPS is enriched and privileged to have so many commenters,  all with soundness of moral character; honesty and integrity. No wonder we have such a large lurking audience of readers because this is attributed to our posters sharing thoughtful sincere interesting opinions.

SmileSmileSmile

Lyn

July 11. 2012 01:04 PM

Michael

jj, hi.

I am on record here as writing that Tony Abbott has been a "most successful leader of the Coalition in Opposition". This is manifestly true, in his nation-trashing manner.

A truly 'most successful Leader of the Opposition' would have, in parliament, displayed a dominance that through its absence in Tony Abbott has revealed him as a rankly unsuccessful Leader of the Opposition.

Because he still IS Leader of the Opposition after more years than almost any other LOTO has been in that position since Federation.

The simplest measure is that the best LOTO is the man or woman who is Prime Minister. He or she has claimed government over the claim of the other mob.

By that standard, while the future is wide open, I humbly suggest that successful as Tony Abbott might have been (in the eyes of those who seem to have little understanding of how parliamentary democracy works in Australia) in badmouthing the individuals who make up the current government, in casting aspersions that most often prove false or inflatedly negative upon government policy, in standing before a compliant media and continually reiterating proven inaccurate statements and 'good soundbite' slogans, he has in no way established the claim you make for him - "the most successful opposition leader in Australian history".

He may well be the man who never became PM because in Opposition he so comprehensively (and by your light, 'successfully') displayed all the characteristics that Australian voters do not want to see in a national leader. Hence his low personal satisfaction levels in the polls.

Bring on Joe Hockey! (see above)

Michael

July 11. 2012 01:37 PM

Ad astra

Hi Lyn
More interesting Twitterverse.  It looks as if Abbott will ignore all advice about turning back boats.  His arrogance is breathtaking.

Ad astra

July 11. 2012 01:44 PM

LadyInRed

Gosh perhaps what my partner has been saying will actually come true. Give Abbott enough space to be who he is and he will get more incredulous day by day. And that's what the Lib's have done, they have unleashed a monster, his IGA stunt is slowly building on his over inflated ego as to what he can get away with. Do we have any more detail on this anyone? I do hope the Lib's dump him, and soon. I want the carbon price to be a success; as anything we can do to bring about a change on the way we consume energy is a step in the right direction. It's important for our children's future and the future of all the creatures that inhabit this planet that we find a way to live here more sustainably.

LadyInRed

July 11. 2012 02:12 PM

Tom of Melbourne

When the likes of Tim Dunlop say that he won’t be voting for the ALP, it’s time for ALP barrackers here (and other sites) to realise that the level of distain for this government isn’t due to the media.

It’s a rational conclusion that rational people come to.

Only the irrational continually blame the media, and it’s time for this site to live up to its motto.

Tom of Melbourne

July 11. 2012 02:43 PM

jaycee

I vote we give "Tom" a pay rise!...He is saying all the beaut things one expects a "right-winger ratbag" to say...BUT..with conviction...onya;Tom..onya ;"pet"!...(ps. Tom, you don't REALLY believe Mr. Dunlop will not vote Labor..do you?).
jj..If it walks like a duck...We have a plethora of historical examples of the behaviour of fascist leaders of Europe in the 20th century to compare LOTO with...in more than a few, he is not found wanting! All some of these type need is opportunity and he is showing he is dead keen to use as much of those as he can even NOW!...Maxim : "If the lycra fits; wear it!"

jaycee

July 11. 2012 02:49 PM

42 long

So the media writes the truth objectively does it? Tom from Melbourne? People are not influenced by the media the shock jocks, alan jones etc. you had better tell Rupert he has wasted his life, ( cause he does it for power). Gina is in for a shock too Cause she thinks she can buy into the persuaders and gain an advantage to her wallet
  What world do you live in? Oh I know you have already told us. The RATIONAL ONE.
   So anyone who doesn't "THINK" like you, (and I use the word in a broad context)is irrational by definition?
  Produce some facts. I'm saying propaganda is working as it always has. That doesn't make it acceptable and is not a substitute for FACTS. Something you exalted leader to be doesn't deal in. He is also not a very nice person. That is why his approval rating is poor.
   Given the FACTS to deliberate on the PEOPLE will make the right decision. That is what democracy relies on, not hype deception, confusion, fear, demonising intellectuals etc that pours from Tony.
  Clive Palmer reckoned he was "Stalinist", but HE is a pretty notorious "lefty" so we will ignore him.

42 long

July 11. 2012 02:56 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Just explain how notorious ALP supporter has decided that he won't vote for them.

Is he manipulated by the media, or has he reached a conclusion through intelligent and rational consideration?

Tom of Melbourne

July 11. 2012 03:06 PM

Gravel

PatriciaWA

You are certainly in good form now, love your pome, as usual you seem to outdo yourself each time.  At the moment am helping daughter in law as she has just had surgery on her ankle, and is frustrated that she has to have help, but is bravely soldiering on.  The two grandkids are being a great help to her too.  Like her, I wish you a good recovery.

I am going through my stage of being over politics at the moment.  I watched Julia and the Community Cabinet last night, till they rudely cut it off.  I was especially impressed with her response to the chap who implied she shouldn't be Prime Minister because of her lack of religious belief, and was real chuffed that she go huge applause.

Gravel

July 11. 2012 03:09 PM

jj

42 Long,

There is no doubt that Julia Gillard's Government is not popular with the media currently, however this is just a reflection of community attitudes. I dont think you realise how on the nose the Gillard Government is in the community. Now, you may say that it is the media that created this dislike...well answer me these questions:
- was it the media who prompted Gillard to do a deal with the greens to see that a carbon price was brought in after having promised not to do so?
- was it the media that forced Gillard to announce a peoples assembly?
- Was it the media who forced Gillard to use absurd lines such as 'moving forward' over and over, to the public's disdain?
- Was it the media that forced Gillard to announce an East-Timor solution before actually establishing one?
- Was it the media's fault that Gillard created a Malaysia Solution which did not meet the laws of the land?
- Was it the media's fault that Gillard did a deal with Mr Slipper so as to go back on the deal she had done with Mr Wilkie?
- Was it the media's fault that Gillard ordered the Coalition to lay off Mr Thomson whilst letting her own ministers attack Mr Ashby?
- Is it the media's fault that the Labor Party continues to look inwards rather than outwards for answers to its electoral problems?
- Is it the media's fault that Kevin Rudd holds ambitions and is willing to do whatever it takes to get back to the leadership position?
- Is it the media's fault that Gillard stabbed Rudd in the back without giving any real reason for doing so to the public?

The public has seen all of the above in the past few years and has become sick of it. The media has reacted to all of these events also by becoming increasingly cynical as to the way the Government and the PM operate. Sure Abbott and Co may be getting a good ride in the media at the moment, but it is the Gillard team that is allowing it to occur by continuously making mistakes. I can still remember how easy Kevin Rudd got it when he was opposition leader back in 07. The whole of the media, including The Australian Newspaper and all of the so-called evil Murdoch outlets supporting him in their editorials. Now, although you may not have liked Howard, he made far fewer mistakes in his 11 years in office than what this mob have done in 2, but he still copped it!
So open both eyes my friend. This Government has been a policy and political flop. All the media are doing is reflecting the views of the population to sell their papers, and reporting on the sad ways of the Labor Party.

jj

July 11. 2012 03:14 PM

jj

Michael,

You must remember that Abbott is in opposition and Gillard is in power. If the nation is being trashed (as you say it is) than it is ultimately the Governments responsibility to stop it.

Oh, and apparently (looking at the polls) over 50% of the Nation supports this so-called trashing!
Gee, what a stuffed up bunch us Australian's must be!

jj

July 11. 2012 03:17 PM

Jason

ToM,
   Perhaps Dunlop wants to be like you! not vote at all then complain about the government that does get into office!
Or who gives a rats arse what Dunlop wants to do!

ToM Do you have the "vapours" singing turning Japanese on in the background practicing with one hand and typing with the other?

Jason

July 11. 2012 03:22 PM

DMW

Hi jj
welcome back Tong

I don't know by what metrics you rate Mr Abbott as the most successful opposition leader in Australian history and could well become Australia's most dominant electoral performer since WW2.

He hasn't been opposition as long as some others have been so that can't been the measure.

Possibly the person that would currently rate as our most successful opposition leader. Whitlam outlasted three prime ministers and saw of a fourth by beating him at the 1972 election.

Phony Tony has only seen off one prime minister and is yet to defeat one at the ballot box.

Time will tell but I suspect he will more than likely end up being one of the many opposition leaders who could not go the whole nine yards and become prime minister.

DMW

July 11. 2012 03:33 PM

Jason

ToM,
   Do you have a link to where Tim Dunlop said what you claimed? or are we to take your dodgy word for it?

Jason

July 11. 2012 03:41 PM

jaycee

jj....I recall those "town hall debates" at the last election set up by the 'Tele'..a farce, a manufactured media event, with all the usual suspects (Uhlman, Grattan, the fat-boy, etc) salivating on the side-lines. I remember Abbott, on-cue, stepping down from the stage to talk to the audience; "eye to eye"...I commented on the Drum then ;"...but which 'eye'!?".
No, you are just kidding yourself and trying (in vain) to kid us that the media haven't done the dirty on Labor since 2010.
The fact that we AND YOU use these sites to try and make or break opinion shows as FACT that we each and every one of us know the "power" of "media manipulation"?....don't we?

jaycee

July 11. 2012 04:11 PM

Psyclaw


Michael and All

Regardless of Turnbull's faults, to me he would not be a manifest embarrassment, especially in the important International and Economic areas. I would not reflexively cringe if I saw him on the TV.

As to Sloppy, I agree with you Michael; he would be a soft target for the ALP in any campaign. This is especially in leadership per se (not to mention the Economic waffle).

Remember that in December 2009 he was the first 3 candidates eliminated, when fancied as the main chance. And why! Well in a party crisis setting manipulated by Minchin and other faceless Lieberals to head off the Wong/McFarlane CPRS "in good faith" contract, Joe dealt with the main issue by saying "Elect me and I'll allow a conscience vote about the agreement"

That was his leadership style in action ........" I'm such a fair leader that I'll let you all lead yourselves."

The rest is history ..... the outsider voted himself the job. He of course had conned his party colleagues and it wasn't till Craig Thomson's vote recently which saw him showing off his true leadership skills in a crisis....Run Abbott, Run Abbott, Run Run Run!

And of course it has only been in recent days that his disrespect for other nations, here Indonesia, has come to the fore....frightening.

But all this is academic. We have to see Abbott off first, or should I say that we have to support him seeing hisself off ..... he's trying hard.

Then in my opinion the new leader will be the death starer, the snarling pussy, the survivor cockroach, she who expresses her philosophies using (self incriminating) cut and pastes.

Patience, and appeasement and subjugation to the three previous leaders will pay off for Bishop from the West.

Psyclaw

July 11. 2012 04:17 PM

2353

To the troll protesting about cult references on this blog, I think you'll find that the cult references in regard to the conservative side of politics were started by Gary Hardgrave, ex- Howard Minister, current radio broadcaster and now a former member of the LNP (since they kicked him out).  Such loyalty!

www.brisbanetimes.com.au/.../...0120709-21rh7.html.  The comments are interesting too.

By the way, following on from this morning's suggestion to have a pet conservative that is occasionally fed and watered.  Don't know if AA can afford to feed three trolls.  JJ is back, TfM is still here - SIC can't be far away.

2353

July 11. 2012 04:25 PM

2353

Workchoices is back if the LNP gets elected.

www.abc.net.au/.../4124088

Spread the word.

2353

July 11. 2012 04:38 PM

Jason

jj,
  What's with you "hillbilly's"?

IT has now been one week since two-time National Party candidate for Lyne David Gillespie called for a referendum on carbon pricing without knowing his own party’s policy on Climate Change.

“Fortunately for Mr Gillespie, the electronic political magazine Crikey has since found a copy of the National Party’s speaking notes and published them online,” Mr Oakeshott said.

The documents reveal:
1.The National Party and the Labor Party agree on the science of climate change
2.The National Party and the Labor Party agree on the need for a policy response to the science
3.The National Party and the Labor Party agree on a 5 per cent reduction in emissions by 2020 as the core of the policy response

www.independentaustralia.net/.../

Jason

July 11. 2012 04:39 PM

42 long

  Will the "regressive" GST be increased?
  Will the ABC still be here in it's present form.
   Rupert calls the BBC the greatest threat to free speech.
   Why would the ABC be regarded in a different light?
  LNP regard the ABC as too left and whinge about it.
  If what the media say doesn't matter why would the "tiny" ABC bother them so much? when there is no other "left" media and surely enough rabid right ( as in looney) to balance the situation.
  Does anyone really talk of "balance" anymore.
  (except jonathan Holmes, IA. Peter Wicks and their ilk, all of whom have little capital to do their essential job.
Don't ask me to believe in no media bias. they are the kingmakers.
   The LNP is the best political party in australia thaT money CAN BUY.

42 long

July 11. 2012 05:04 PM

PeterP

Guys,

Check out Julian Burnside's post on The Drum - brilliant.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4123872.html

The Monk has been nailed BIG TIME. If the MSM doesn't jump on this, I give up.

Ceers.

PeterP

July 11. 2012 05:19 PM

Glorfindel

Ad Astra
As all the alternatives fall short, while it is ahead in the polls it will stick with the awful, devious liar Abbott.  The prospect of such a ruthless, heartless, pugilistic person becoming PM is too awful to contemplate.  


I most heartily agree – and yet thanks solely to the ineptitude of Gillard that awful result remains a distinct possibility.

It’s some two years now since that idiotic coup, and we are still discussing the problems of asylum seekers. Two years since Gillard promised a swift resolution on asylum seekers, the mining tax and climate change.

My hasn’t she done well.  

Glorfindel

July 11. 2012 05:21 PM

Ad astra

Jason
Thank you for the link to the Oakeshott piece on The Nationals’ policy on climate change.  The ignorance of his opponent David Gillespie, is astonishing.

www.independentaustralia.net/.../

Ad astra

July 11. 2012 05:24 PM

jaycee

Yes, I remember now. Those town-hall debates at the last election. It is all coming back to me..I remember yelling at the tele-screen.."Don't do it Julia!..It's a set-up!..a bloody set-up!"....But she went. And there they were, a set-piece..The mob, the cued hecklers, the boozy barrackers of the opposition...the whole stinking lot...and there, sloping and sneering on the sidelines, just in sight of the cameras were the MSM journos..you know their names, familiar faces and by-lines, salivating with "pens-in-hand" just waiting for the "kicking" of Gillard!
And THAT'S..where I thought..nay; SAW political and personal courage manifest. I have for a long time believed that women,through generation after generation of social oppression, social adversity and betrayal...mostly by males AND sometimes, sadly, by those males they have trusted the most, have within them a core of such courage and endurance that something like a hall-full of howling, dribbling men, chocked to the gills with venom and bile measure less than the everyday derision that they encounter as they go about their honest business.
Julia Gillard went to that "debate" where a bloke might have second thoughts,may have faltered, stood her ground politely in face of frequent heckling and delivered a fair and concise thesis, thanked the audience and left.
Tony Abbott, forwarned and coached by the media organisers, played his "role" of court-jester and vaudville clown while the MSM "filth" scribbled and scratched their miserable by-lines. I "dips me lid" to the Prime Minister, while I spurn the cowardly Abbott and I have no words of strong enough condemnation for those journos', those vile servants of Moloch!

jaycee

July 11. 2012 05:25 PM

Ad astra

PeterP
Welcome to The Political Sword family.  Do come again.

Thank you for the link to the Julian Burnside article, that strongly challenges Abbott’s Christian ethics.

www.independentaustralia.net/.../

Ad astra

July 11. 2012 05:29 PM

Ad astra

jaycee
Agreed.

Ad astra

July 11. 2012 07:38 PM

TalkTurkey

Would somebody be so kind as to thank Glorfindel for me? See I don't address trolls directly, except for my introductory brown-eye welcome, but Glorfy holds a special place in my heart, for 'twas he who alerted me to the fact that I could get odds of 7:1 against a Labor win in the next Federal election, whoo boy, have I grabbed a piece of that! Since then Sportsbet has lowered their odds to 6, but Abbortt is still at $1.10, what hubris! It means that almost ALL the money is on Abbortt, but what that shows is the kind of people who are betting on it rather than the 'real' odds - which, note, is a purely guesswork figure, unlike say the true 1 in 6 odds of throwing a given number on a 6-sided die. Well my guess is a lot different from the high rollers obviously, and I'm delighted to be backing my judgment at Sevens. So will someone thank Glorf for me? Ta.

recaptcha : decreasing bygreen    WHAT CAN IT MEAN?

TalkTurkey

July 11. 2012 10:04 PM

Patriciawa

Did I dream the 6 pm news flash about three boats seeking help and the PM insisting that safety has to be the priority?  Then it looked as if Abbott was still prepared to take this issue all the way to hell.  Hell for the country, I mean if the dark side of Oz follows him.  But astonishingly nothing on our 7pm national news or 7.30 about it.  

Or have I missed something since the news flash earlier about three boats heading this way and asking for help, with Hockey and co saying that they are crying Wolf?  The PM sounded firm in staying with the law of the sea.

I thought it would be all over the news.

Patriciawa

July 11. 2012 10:08 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Jason, you requested Tim Dunlop’s comments – here -

www.kingstribune.com/.../1420-i-have-a-question-and-my-question-is-this

…and here’s a selection of some of his comments about the government and blogs.

Of course he’s also anti Abbott, good for him!

Who the fuck am I meant to vote for at the next Federal election? This is not a rhetorical question. I really want to know. Who is meant to get my vote? Who do I trust to do the right thing most of the time, and how do I minimise the inevitable disappointment of supporting people who will, with a high degree of predictability, do things I hate?
-------
I’m even over most of the alternative commentary, the blogs, the outsiders on Twitter, the amateurs and semi-professionals who I always thought cast a new and interesting light on what is going on. Maybe I’m just having a bad year, but some of them are driving me nuts.
---------------
On the other hand, Julia Gillard just makes me sad. Not in some teary sort of way as if I was pining for a political purity that she has somehow corrupted — I am not even remotely that naive or sentimental about politics — but in the way that you get sad when your neighbour’s dog gets run over by a truck. A sort detached and horrified sadness that is as much an intellectual exercise as it is an emotional one.

It isn’t just the fact that her policies on asylum seekers or gay marriage are a species of inhumanity that no ‘progressive’ voter could ever just rationalise away, or even that her endless homilies on hard work and education are nothing more than paeans to some of the worst aspects of neo-liberalism that make it impossible to forgive other aspects of her program that I would be willing to paper over in the name of realpolitik.

No, what lights a roman candle of despair beneath my rectum is that she seems to hold in contempt the left of the political ecosphere in a way that is politically dumb.

Tom of Melbourne

July 11. 2012 10:39 PM

jj

Jason,

By carbon price i think he meant carbon tax. Nothing wrong with that...

jj

July 11. 2012 11:01 PM

jaycee

Tom..I'm going to tell you something that may shock you at your tender age, but since you are our "pet" and you will one day grow up (as will, I suspect, young Tim Dunlop)and come to appreciate such knowledge...: Tom..even our most treasured heros can have feet of clay!...There! now you know one of the mysteries of humanity. Even Ulysses, that archetype hero turned into a murderer!
But despair not, for politics is bigger than the one individual or even one party! When you grow up to be a big, big boy, you'll realise many people do not put all their eggs in one basket.
Now, Tom, Tim...go forth and learn!

jaycee

July 11. 2012 11:13 PM

Jason

ToM,
   Thank you!I shall have a read.

Jason

July 11. 2012 11:35 PM

NormanK

DMW

Thank you for your kind thoughts. I must admit that I am struggling.

You asked if there's anything that you could do.

You could write a nice letter to the Liberal Party and ask them politely whether they would be willing to change their leader. I don't much care who they change to just so long as we get rid of this rabid dog who seems determined to infect every single thing with which he comes into contact. At this point I don't even care if it spells electoral pain for the ALP.

NormanK

July 12. 2012 04:34 AM

paul walter

You know, I still wonder if Marilyn Shepherd is entirely wrong in much of her thinking, even if you don't like all her solutions.
It does seem a fair bit money and effort has been wasted over more than a decade on a largely psychological problem that could have been at least partially alleviated through changes in the processing regime and a bit of money and effort spent on processing rather than detention.
It's the foul up it is because it has been politicised and the incredible cynicism in the manipulating of the issue for political  reasons, of which the current Abbott T-party style antics are only the most recent example in a series involving the entire political system.
It's a bit like fixing up the environment. If a fraction of the effort involved in ecology denial had been spent just accepting  ecology as a basis for rational economics in a community, the whole country would have sustainable development now, instead of the current, costly adhoc system.
I just wish the vested interests would just get out of the way when real world issues involving people's lives are at stake. Too many of the wrong sort of people in control of too much strategic wealth and resources, as with the US Koch brothers or Murdoch and they are now a cancer throttling a civil multicultural order.

paul walter

July 12. 2012 07:15 AM

Lyn

TODAY’S LINKS

The Gentle Art Of Making Enemies, Peter Wicks, Wixxy Leaks
I will provide you a copy of Mr Spinless’s post, just to be transparent, it doesn’t warrant reading, but for those who seek context it will be handy. He appears to be desperately trying to get hits on his site, judging from our phone conversation, and the way he shamelessly begs people to repost his blogs via Twitter and
http://wixxy.wordpress.com/

Boat people un-Christian? Wrong, Mr Abbott, Julian Burnside, ABC
It is inconceivable that he failed to notice that some people, hearing his comments about boat-people being "un-Christian", would have understood him as criticizing boat-people because they are Muslim, not Christian. It is a sad reflection of the depths to which political debate has fallen in this country that an avowed Christian could stoop to such shabby tactics.
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4123872.html

Andrew Bolt’s blog collapses in on itself: surprised, Watching the Deniers
Andrew Bolt has been shut down by the Herald Sun, Bolt’s blog a comment-free zone. The comments section of Andrew Bolt’s blog used to be a sight to behold – a free-wheeling, invective-filled wonderland of debate and discussion. Now, it’s a wasteland. On 10 July 2011, for example, the conservative crusader’s seven blog posts attracted 1289 comments. Yesterday, only 225 comments published. As Crikey hit deadline, just three comments had been waved through today.“NO MORE COMMENTS TODAY
watchingthedeniers.wordpress.com/.../

Media bosses must stop meddling in our democracy, Martin Hirst, Independent Australia
The principle is that we – citizens – elect governments to carry out our wishes. The system does not always work perfectly, but it is democracy in action. We are ultimately in control. If we don’t like what our elected representatives are doing we can throw them out. They are subject to popular recall. But who are you responsible to? Not to us that’s for sure
www.independentaustralia.net/.../

Ladies, The Mining Boom Needs You!Eva Cox, New Matilda
Similar arguments about the lack of women in senior executive jobs also fail to understand that gender divisions in the workplace may reflect bad job design and ineffective use of talent. The types of jobs on offer in the mining boom may be relics of a time and industry structure that is well and truly out of date — and dangerous. The industry, together with other macho designed areas
newmatilda.com/.../ladies-mining-boom-needs-you

Abbott’s religiosity is no basis for policy, Jennifer Wilson, No Place for Sheep
Abbott also believes he has the right to bully the navy into towing back boats, in spite of considerable advice as to the undesirable possibilities of taking that course, both in terms of life threatening risks to asylum seekers and navy personnel, as well as disruption to our relations with Indonesia.
noplaceforsheep.com/.../

A Mans Man or Scurrying Rodent?, Wayne Brooks, Curiosity and Challenge
Why dont you challenge her to public debate to show all Australians what an evil presence she truly is….Hell lets go one better, WHY arent you on every open forum telling us why shes so bad, all while presenting facts and answering the open questions millions of aussies want to hear you answer without a publicist, without a bloody script. You know get out there act like a “REAL MAN” and show us what you got…
wrb330.wordpress.com/.../

The most popular decision since Julia Gillard became PM, Essential Report
Each week for the past 105 weeks, Essential Research has polled national public opinion on government decisions and announcements, including paid maternity leave, a ban on live cattle exports, aged care reform, increases to superannuation contributions and the introduction of a price on carbon pollution
essentialmedia.createsend1.com/.../13E764AF455800A9FCACEB58A033025D

Price Wars: Carbon versus Petrol, Stephen Koukoulas, Market Economics
implementation of the carbon prices will fortuitously be more or less completely offset by the recent fall in petrol prices. If account is then taken of the household compensation by way of income tax cuts and pension increases, the cash position of the household sector will materially improve as the carbon price comes in and as petrol prices edge lower.
www.marketeconomics.com.au/2119-price-wars-carbon-versus-petrol

Reasons to not vote for Tony,caitlinate, The Dawn Chorus
thedawnchorus.wordpress.com/.../

Jesus rewrites the “Parable of the Good Samaritan” for Tony Abbott, Ash, Ash’s Machiavellian Bloggery
But a certain (Tony Abbott), as he travelled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion, came to him, and bound up (the man. Then he made sure he did not have enough money to come back, then unbound the man and pushed him out of town).
ashghebranious.wordpress.com/.../

Newmania- Independence Day,Sal Piracha, Only The Depth Varies
Not everyone is delighted, though. Brad Hazzard, New South Wales Minister for GrumpArsery and Sore Loserism is appalled. He says Sydney is Australia’s only genuine World City, and therefore, Sydney has some divine right to host all of the important stuff. Gee, Melbourne is gonna be annoyed!
http://onlythedepthvaries.blogspot.com.au/

GETTING THE NATIONALS TO EXPLAIN ITS CLIMATE CHANGE POLICY IS THE GREAT MORAL CHALLENGE OF OUR TIME, Rob Oakshott
Independent Lyne MP Rob Oakeshott said he and other ABC Radio listeners were surprised to hear Mr Gillespie confess “I’ll have to go back to my notes” when asked about the National Party’s Climate Change plan.“Fortunately for Mr Gillespie, the electronic political magazine Crikey! has since found a copy of the National Party’s speaking notes and published them online,” Mr Oakeshott said.
http://roboakeshott.com/node/1376

Twitter is humanity, warts and all. Where’s the story in that?, Stilgherrian, Crikey
Mocking the weak and stupid is universal human behaviour. So why is it global news when a young woman is ridiculed for asking an ill-informed question on Twitter?
http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=302383

Why Is Malcolm Turnbull Spending So Much On Global Roaming, Lifehacker
That single bill entry alone would have been enough to make Turnbull our biggest-spending politician when it comes to roaming. Indeed, his total bill of $18,346.52 accounts over 13 per cent of the collected $140,723.19 that politicians spent on global roaming for overseas calls in those six months. That figure almost $10,000 more than the number two politician on the list, Bernie Ripoll (the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasurer).
www.lifehacker.com.au/.../

Newman's accidental solar boom, Nigel Morris, Climate Spectator
Following his announcement to cut the 44 cent net feed-in tariff, he provided the industry and solar consumers with a window of opportunity to sign up before the scheme was switched to 8 cents – and sign up they did.Energex reported this morning that 75,000 applications were received in the 13 days between the 26th of June and the 9th of July.
www.climatespectator.com.au/.../newmans-accidental-solar-boom

An acceptable Press Council: we decide, you shut the f#ck up, Ethical Martini
Despite the credentialling and the vetting and the secret handshakes of these upstanding doyens of the establishment, The Australian’s found sixty ways to Christmas to condemn, belittle and bemoan their appointment.
ethicalmartini.wordpress.com/.../

How the NBN will change education: Australia’s “Last Spike” moment , Adam Shoemaker, The Conversation
Meanwhile, every university and TAFE in the nation should be considering the establishment of digitally-enabled secondary schools on their campuses.The NBN project is one which isbeyond politics and it deserves bipartisan support in every state and territory. The “last spike” moment is now.
theconversation.edu.au/how-the-nbn-will-change-education-australias-last-spike-moment-7979

Today’s Front pages
Australia Newspaper Front Pages for 12 July 2012
www.frontpagestoday.co.uk/index.cfm

Lyn

July 12. 2012 08:09 AM

janice

Good morning all.

Whilst I am able to withstand the blurred print, I want to thank you, TT for your concern.  Cataracts, I'M led to believe, have to be 'ripe' before they can be surgically removed.  However, I am pursuing more opinions and hopefully there may be a solution somewhere.

Meanwhile, the battle goes on as Labor tries to counter the lies spruiked by that decadent wrecking ball of a LOTO who would land us in the same shite hole that Europe has fallen into with their stupid thinking that cutting spending to the bone and putting half the tax-paying population out of work is the way to prosperity.  

If Australians are dead set on having something real to whinge about they're definitely on the right path if they vote coalition.  

janice

July 12. 2012 08:27 AM

Ad astra

LYN'S DAILY LINKS updated: www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...-DAILY-LINKS.aspx

Ad astra

July 12. 2012 08:33 AM

Ad astra

NormanK
It’s good to see you back again.  We are all struggling with the heartless, vicious liar who leads the Coalition.  The thought of him being PM is abhorrent.

I hope all is well with you otherwise.  We all wish you well.

Ad astra

July 12. 2012 08:51 AM

TalkTurkey

Good Morning Comrades of the Sword

Andrew Elder yesterday published a story in which he says wtte (verbatim I think) Tony Abbortt has already lost.

I tweeted him:  
    @awelder Good on you, but Ad astra and I on The Political Sword called it years ago and have never wavered in that conviction.VENCEREMOS!

He got back:

@TalkyTurkey Ad Astra will tell you that he and I came to it at about the same time, because he reads my blog.


Not that I wish to split hairs, Andrew, but I don't really think the 'because' has meaning here: neither Ad nor I needed AE's (Anyone Else's) opinion to make up our own minds that Tony Abbortt Will Never Be Prime Minister.

Nor do I mean to say anything to detract from your blog Andrew, one of the best yes, but just to point out, neither Ad nor I, nor many more of us on TPS, have ever been 'Politically Homeless': not, in my case, since I can remember asking my Dad as a little kid, Do we want Mr Menzies to win Dad? and my dear Dad looked really shocked (that was the referendum to ban Communism!) From that day I have bothered to find facts, and they never make me want to jump from the ALP. It's not 'my Party right or wrong', I'm often less than content or in complete agreement with Labor but that's what the Greens just can't come to terms with, that we can't have everything always this instant. Patience, commitment, hard yards, preparedness to accept less than perfection if it's significant improvement - That's why Labor is the only Party fit to govern Australia.  

Be it ever so imperfect, there's no place like Home on the ALP.

  

True the movement to that opinion has been glacial, but it's coming our way, Abbortt can't push it back no matter what he does.

TalkTurkey

July 12. 2012 09:28 AM

TalkTurkey

Janice,
There is of course unlimited info on cataracts on the Net: it seems that over 60% of people over 60 develop cataracts to some extent. But there are good techniques of operating, you might well end up with hawk-eye vision again, and you know there will be many here cheering and patting their Dog on your behalf.

Just what will be the most appropriate treatment depends on the nature of your particular case, but be of good cheer, the prognosis for good outcomes is excellent. I wouldn't say that if it wasn't true.

Like the next election! Kiss

TalkTurkey

July 12. 2012 11:02 AM

LadyInRed

jj I suggest that yes the media is to blame, and you are a clasic example of the parrot's that the MSM has produced. They (and you) focus only on the negatives and push the positives off to one side so yes the MSM is to blame. In this country we have, low unemployment, low national debt, we missed the GFC, we are trying to use the mining boom to benefit the nation, we have a NBN coming on line that will see us into the future and something I know the PM (and Rudd) should be applauded for not ridiculed. The tripling of the tax threshhold is a fantastic YES ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC outcome from the carbon pricing scheme. We are pricing carbon for the benefit of a clean energy future for our children and children's children.

OK there have been mistakes but are these mistakes really any worse than taking us into war with Iraq under false premise? ALL politicians lie, change their position whatever you want to call it. Children overbaord was reprehensible. The AWB scandle - a big big mistake! Abbott lies constantly but he is not called out for it because when he gets put under scrutiny he just run's away or repeats his mantra - his interview with Cassidy on Sunday was not a good one. He constantly puts this country down by scaring everyone. I could go on.

And finally this country is full of people who just don't like women in power, so unless the woman in power is spotless, makes no mistakes what-so-ever we write them off much quicker than we would any bloke. Look at Kevin as an example - can you get a more flawed pollitician and yet we put him up on a pedestal.

LadyInRed

July 12. 2012 11:11 AM

Tom of Melbourne

I suggest that yes the media is to blame

It seems that people that know nothing (such as Bill Kelty and Tim Dunlop) have an entirely different opinion.

Tom of Melbourne

July 12. 2012 11:20 AM

Ad astra

Folks
I’ll be on the road back to the south coast most of the day.  I’ll be back this evening.

Ad astra

July 12. 2012 11:28 AM

LadyInRed

Tom are you saying their opinion is more valuable than mine? But yours of course is sacrosanct?

LadyInRed

July 12. 2012 11:49 AM

42 long

Lady in Red..
I was going to say how good your comments were and they are.
Opinion shapers don't explain the out of context  "selected" references they make.
  TfM is a perfest example of that. He probably thinks he is clever bringing up these "GEMS".
   For thoughtfull cotibutions he is a non-player. I am not denegrating him personally, just pointing out how he plays the game. If we weren't getting traction these people wouldn't bother. I should not respond. (His input is not worth it) . It only encourages him

42 long

July 12. 2012 11:58 AM

LadyInRed

Lyn what great links....again thanks. "The Reasons not to vote for Tony" link. I had forgotten some of them - the man is a retro thinking nightmare! Just to remind those of you who haven't read it - these are just some of the worse ones and the last one is just gob smackingly offensive, cringe worthy!:

…we just can’t stop people from being homeless if that’s their choice…”

“I think it would be folly to expect that women will ever dominate or even approach equal representation in a large number of areas simply because their aptitudes, abilities and interests are different for physiological reasons”

Mr Speaker, we have a bizarre double standard; a bizarre double standard in this country where some-one who kills a pregnant woman’s baby is guilty of murder, but a woman who aborts an unborn baby is simply exercising choice.


“What the housewives of Australia need to understand as they do the ironing is that if they get it done commercially it’s going to go up in price and their own power bills when they switch the iron on are going to go up, every year….”


” I think there does need to be give and take on both sides, and this idea that sex is kind of a woman’s right to absolutely withhold, just as the idea that sex is a man’s right to demand I think they are both they both need to be moderated, so to speak”


LadyInRed

July 12. 2012 12:43 PM

DMW

Yesterdays comment by jj @ 12:21 PM that he (Mr Abbott) is the most successful opposition leader in Australian history was interesting but totally and absolutely out of the ballpark.

Even if he had qualified it by saying that Abbott is the most successful Liberal Party opposition leader in history he would still be way out of the ballpark.

Since the Liberal Party was formed there have been three far more successful Liberal opposition leaders.

The first of course was the founder of the modern Liberal Party Ming the Merciless. Menzies turned opposition into government and was unbeatable at at six elections following his initial election win. His two party preferred vote was 51.0% to 49.0%. The swing was 5.10%.

Malcolm Fraser of course rolled Gough and won two further elections. His two party preferred vote was 55.7% to 44.3%. The swing was 7.40%.

Of course then there was Deputy Sherrif Howard who won in 1996 and went on to win three more elections. His two party preferred vote was 53.63%  to 46.37%. The swing was 5.07%.

At the last election Mr Abbott could only manage a swing of 2.58% toward his party and of course couldn't drag his party over the line.

The best that could be said about Mr Abbott would be that he his the most successful opposition leader to have not won an election but I would question that as there others that have done a better job in so many ways.

I can understand that some in the Liberal camp may wish to erase from memory Mr Fraser but to belittle the successes of Ming or the Deputy Sherriff could border on being unAustralian. SHAME ON YOU JJ

DMW

July 12. 2012 12:58 PM

TalkTurkey

This is for Ad (+1) driving south . . .  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_wFiP_HE1s

Kraftwerk!

Read the comments, count me in.




TalkTurkey

July 12. 2012 01:04 PM

Lyn

Hi Ad and Everybody

Twitterverse:

Space Kidette‏
Andrews Meat contact form: www.andrewsmeat.com.au/Dynamicpages.asp

Judge 'n Jury rocket‏  sprocket___
TonyAbbottMHR is repeating word for word what he has said yesterday (and day before). How is this news @abcmarkscott ? #auspol

David Kirkpatrick‏
Interesting....RT @NationalTimesAU Power bills lead way in new tax complaints http://nationaltimes.com.au/opinion/politi… via @NationalTimesAU

Hilary Styles‏
An interesting theme emerging on TA's live blog - hand picking the questions after 10mins of silence... #asktony www.adelaidenow.com.au/.../story-fndo1sdf-122642383750

Tony Abbott says carbon tax just bad socialism

Much is made of Abbott’s Catholic faith, but it seems to me that the rule book he plays from has more in common with Machiavelli. Machiavelli famously concluded
www.eurekastreet.com.au/article.aspx?aeid=2392
Tony Abbott's missing moral core

sansBS‏
TonyAbbottMHR Explain Price FALLS #confusedGroceries m.perthnow.com.au/.../story-fndo4gtr-1226422964018Fuel www.aip.com.au/.../...ol_Prices_Report.htminterest rates www.rba.gov.au/chart-pack/interest-rates.html

Tony Abbott's missing moral core

Meta Starostin‏
Abbott carbon tax grocery claims 'false' - The West Australian http://yhoo.it/RWKMab via @thewest_com_au #AusPol #AskTony

HD Rebner‏
It was asked why ppl did't turn against Hitler until it was too late! I ask the same question re: Tony 'Gobbels' Abbott ! Worried?? I amFrown

Equitist‏
ToxicTony Abbott's propaganda machine parrots "Carbon Tax just bad socialism" www.dailytelegraph.com.au/.../story-e6frezz0-1226423837507 @dailytelegraph @TonyAbbottMHR #AUSpol

Steve Thompson‏
mrumens And taxpayers are funding @TonyAbbottMHR’s three year election campaign and #OurABC is broadcasting it every day. @abcmarkscott

Stephanie Philbrick‏
ThanksAbbott MT amworldtodaypm: ACCC received over 600 complaints over alleged carbon price scams: Listen to AM at 0710 on RN for details.

Dan‏
Abbott says "navy has turned boats around b4 & it can b done again" ol days we used 2 smack kids doesnt make it right www.theage.com.au/.../...-boat-20120711-21wda.html

TAWNBPM‏
"THE head of the consumer watchdog has hit back at claims it is intimidating businesses into not passing on the... http://fb.me/1akjQscoI

TAWNBPM‏
"Indonesian officials reinforced their strong opposition to Mr Abbott's ''turn back the boats'' pledge, with a... http://fb.me/29v5jkYKP

TAWNBPM‏
"TONY Abbott's pledge to turn boats back to Indonesia depends on the compliance of navy commanders - one of whom... http://fb.me/1y7GoGGg6

couriermail.com.au‏@couriermail
LNP official caught with foot in two doors http://goo.gl/fb/zoirb

SmileSmileSmile

Lyn

July 12. 2012 01:16 PM

42 long

  Menzies was a great wordsmith. Even as a youngster I would listen to him demolish those brave enough to challenge his word in parliament, with superior oratory.
  Whitlam and Frazer are mates these days. Frazer is the one to reject his earlier political views. Modern "rightists" wouldn't like that.
  I have learned more about Whitlam lately and have much more respect for what he tried to do than I did then, in the light of information that has become available.
  Abbott has no stake to any political substance, except as a living relic of the sort of thinking that belongs to many years ago. (perhaps centuries)
  He got in by one vote( including Slipper's) he hasn't got over the election loss. His regard for parliamentary/legal/ moral process is contemptuous arrogance only and I would never deny him the Albanese Award for the longest dummy-spit in history. I'm quite happy for him to be awarded what he deserves.

42 long

July 12. 2012 01:57 PM

LadyInRed

Thank you 42 long for your kind words. Thanks for reminding me of Albo's dummy spit quote - it still makes me laugh. I luv Albo and his gorgeous lisp. I like the many thoughtful comments on this site. I like to stay open to all sorts of opinions and I would prefer if we all remain respectfull of each other. I know I once offended you and I am mindful now of what I say. I am also mindful that no matter how careful you are there is still the possibility that you might upset someone. Just going to get back to Lyn's woderful links - I have a bit of time to spare.

LadyInRed

July 12. 2012 03:07 PM

Psyclaw



Paul Walter

I think you are correct ..... nearly all of what Marilyn says is the way it should be.

But unfortunately reality trumps, and the fact is that since Howard polarised and politicised the matter of ASs (Tampa, kids overboard) it has been unworthily, irresponsibly and disgracefully a matter of intemperate public discourse and which is fuelled incessantly by the MSM.

There is no quick way to turn the clock back on this.

If we lived in a place where the boats simply arrived and the ASs were efficiently and quietly processed into mainstream community, and perhaps every 3 or 6 months the MSM published the stats in the bottom left corner of P 29 of the papers then policies close to what Marilyn calls for would be possible.

But this is not so. We, the community, through the MSM and the polls will punish severely any party that blinks, and shows "weakness".

And there is no doubt that the most ruthless punisher of all will be Abbott. Border protection..... what crap!

On this matter I think the ALP is well wedged by that loathsome one.

Psyclaw

July 12. 2012 03:59 PM

paul walter

Thanks, psyclaw.
It's the "normative" position. You look at things and think, "well if a, b and c (relatively minor things, in all likelihood) happened wouldn't d then probably happen?
Global military spending approaches $ 2 trillion across the world, if a fraction of this arguably wasted money were spent providing basic fresh water to people across the world, simple medicines ( including for family planning)and so forth, billions of people wouldn't have to live and die like dogs.
Most of us, if we cop a week of the flu, think ourselves hard done by and demand sympathy and help.
Huge numbers of "others" feel like it all the time, every day of their miserable, short lives and the response of prosperous people is to bolt down another hamburger, belch and go to sleep in front of the teev.
You know what needs to happen won't happen, the system is grid-locked by oligarchs with the complicity of the masses in prosperous countries.
But it shouldn't be allowed to pass unremarked, even if what's pointed out represents an uncomfortable truth.

paul walter

July 12. 2012 04:28 PM

LadyInRed

Psyclaw and paul walter.

And so we should do what we can as individuals whether it be to volunteer, do good deeds for the less fortunate, donate to good causes, and try to change attitudes where we can. In this country alone the amount of work that is done through volunteer organisations is astounding, that's people working in the real world and making a difference.

LadyInRed

July 12. 2012 04:34 PM

Marilyn

Well the stats are available on the DIAC website every month, the media though just love to pretend we are being over run.

And just what arrogant twerp said we can stop people profitting from refugees who get on boats?  If they don't get on boats you moron they are open to deportation, beatings and 20 years in Indonesian prisons at our expense.

There are no gangs of criminals running around war zones enticing people into being refugees as our pollies and imbecile media like to claim.

there are other refugees helping their country men and women to safety and it has always been the same.

the rest is just lies and garbage made up in febrile imaginations that defy all logic.

SERCO though make tens of millions in profit every year by jailing and torturing refugees in out of sight prisons for us.


And I wish the media would stop prattling about a political stand off over breaking the law, they can't break the law and no policy in the world justifies doing so.

Marilyn

July 12. 2012 05:24 PM

LadyInRed

I'm switched off to you Marilyn - I will just be gliding past your comments from now on. When you speak as you do you lose all credibility, assuming credibility means anything to you - it does to me. There is no need to call anyone on this site a twerp or a moron. It shows immaturity and a careless attitude to the feelings of others - which makes me wonder at your supposed caring of asylum seekers. Have you come on this site to put forward a solid argument or just to get your kicks by  being offensive? Sitting in your chair feeling all sanctimonious and righteous? It's quite sad.

LadyInRed

July 12. 2012 05:40 PM

Jason

Marilyn,
       I've heard what you've had to say for the past few days and whilst I admire your passion for the cause, When I go to my next Labor FEC meeting your agenda will not even get a mention!
Go back to those who you advocate for and tell them that "you" prefer to drive people away rather than try bringing people together!

Jason

July 12. 2012 06:26 PM

2353

Folks, I'm confused.  There is a comment above stating that Tim Dunlop won't vote for the ALP at the next election, with a link to another blog.  I've just read the blog piece and I can't find the phrase "I won't vote ALP at the next election" or something that even remotely resembles that comment.

From my reading of the blog, it seems that he despairs of having to make a decision based on the current state of the political discourse occurring in Australia.  You know what, I tend to agree - every time the ALP seems to get its act together - some clown opens (usually) his month and gives the media the story they would only hope for in their dreams, LOTO just says no and sprouts "warm fuzzys" that we know have a jackboot inside, and the Greens have yet to articulate their policies clearly since Bob Brown retired.  So to paraphrase Time Dunlop - why would you want to vote for any of them?  Which is a completely different statement to the paraphrase that seemed to gain traction above.

Isn't it a bugger when the facts destroy a good argument.

2353

July 12. 2012 06:39 PM

Jason

2353,
    Thankyou I read it as well, and thought my first set of glasses were playing tricks on me!

Jason

July 12. 2012 07:29 PM

42 long

Doesn't Abbott know any history? I know he knows NOTHING about chemistry, physics or economics.
   If he is going to avoid insulting all the people to our North He should realise that it wasn't long ago the the whole area ws controlled by the British,( India Malaysia) the dutch ( indonesia Borneo?) the Portuguese (Tmor) and they might be justifiably somewhat sensitive to a most arrogant version of someone from their past oppression continuing to treat them as inferior or able to be bullied.
  By any measure Indonesia has done well to get where it is in the time it has. They generously sent money to the Queenslanders after the cyclone and floods recently. A rather generous thing for a poor country, I would think.
   Would we repay this by insulting them with the election of a person who has declared that he will do something they have said they will not accept? ( and they don't legally have to either) Just add the potential damage here to all the other damage he has done and excuse it as "That's just Tony". WE HAVE to take full responsibility for who we elect, because we are a democracy and not some form of dictatorship (yet)

42 long

July 12. 2012 07:42 PM

Ad astra

Folks
I've enjoyed reading your comments, and your Twitterverse Lyn.

It's been a long day so I'm calling it day.

Ad astra

July 12. 2012 08:28 PM

DMW

Jason, 2353,
my glasses aren't playing tricks on me.

I am on a balanced diet tonight a glass in each hand and both more than half full with a fine effervescent amber liquid.

Decisions on who to vote for will be made on a Saturday sometime next year.

DMW

July 12. 2012 08:44 PM

DMW

Oh hang on I have to make some decisions on who to vote for in our local polity this later year.

Bu@@er.

DMW

July 12. 2012 09:15 PM

Jason

DMW,
   I hope it's not light beer in your "diet"!

Jason

July 12. 2012 09:16 PM

2353

DMW,

Amber liquid - half your luck, I started doing something on the phot package on the computer.  2 hours later. . .

2353

July 12. 2012 10:08 PM

DMW

Jason
light is something that comes on when flick the switch. Smile

DMW

July 12. 2012 10:10 PM

DMW

I wonder if Jovial Joe is aware of this:

Arabic Proverbs ‏@ArabProverbs
The only trick the incapable has, are his tears.
Retweeted by Andrew Elder

DMW

July 12. 2012 11:33 PM

TalkTurkey

42 long at 7.29, that's a very good letter.

TalkTurkey

July 13. 2012 01:13 AM

Patriciawa

Alan Moir was an inspiration again today.  
www.smh.com.au/.../alan-moir-20090907-fdxk.html
Perhaps TT or Lyn's links will help with a final verse and some notes tomorrow.

I'm Abbott,  a fighting man
Like Popeye the Sailor Man
I’ll fight to the finish
So watch me demolish.
Every last Labor plan.

I'm tougher than Julia
So don’t let her fool ya
That I aint on the square.
I’ll biff ‘er and buff 'er
And always out rough 'er
And make sure she gets nowhere.

Whatever the facts is
I can show how her taxes
All hurt the working man.
And I’ll win all their votes
By stopping the boats.
A real Popeye the Sailor man.

Watch out Indonesia
Or I’ll come and seize ya.
Yeah, that’s part of me plan.
Yer know I’m no coward
I’m just like John Howard.
I’m Abbott, the Popeye man!

If admirals want to risk
Feeling the strength of my fisk,
It's boff an' it's wham understand?
All of their scrutiny
I’ll treat as mutiny
When I run Downunderland.

Patriciawa

July 13. 2012 06:09 AM

Marilyn

I wonder why people are so willing to pass over the facts while they tell themselves more scarey stories.

Marilyn

July 13. 2012 07:21 AM

Lyn



Today’s Links

Jacksonville oddjobs, Independent Australia
Evidence that the NSW and the Vic Police have taken seriously, evidence that has been reported in The Australian, The Age, the Daily Telegraph, the Sydney Morning Herald, the Herald Sun and, of course, the ABC. Thanks to Australian Associated Press, it has also appeared on every Australian news network that uses AAP, and this includes every TV station, every major radio station, and every major newspaper.
www.independentaustralia.net/.../

“Heckler” did not call PM “white trash” – the real story, Independent Australia
What they didn’t need after Tuesday night was to be on the end of further vilification and abuse through (even inadvertent) misreporting of this incident. In my view, the Brisbane Times should issue an apology and a correction to Jennifer Nash rather than
www.independentaustralia.net/.../

Andrew Bolt turns off comments, John Birmingham, Cheeseburger Gothic
I suspect the defamation lawyers at News might have had a hand in it too. Those comment threads were an open sewer. If you think we get some munters at Blunty (and we do, especially when Bolt throws a rare turd my way, or I toss one to him in collegial solidarity) you’ve got no idea.
http://www.cheeseburgergothic.com/

Since the carbon tax started: Edition 1, Stephen Koukoulas, Market Economics
Market Economics will be providing a regular post called Since The Carbon Tax Started in which a range of market and economic indicators will be monitored. The post will be a simple factually based report which will present a running tally of economic and market developments since the carbon tax was introduced in Australia on 1 July 2012.
http://www.marketeconomics.com.au/2123-2123

WorkChoices. Never Again! Your Rights at Work
Labor's new Fair Work laws have restored many rights lost under WorkChoices. Workers are protected from unfair dismissal and new AWA individual contracts are banned. There is a safety net of National Employment Standards, awards and minimum wages with a stronger independent workplace umpire. Workers have collective bargaining rights and the right to join a union and be represented
www.rightsatwork.com.au/.../...es-Never-Again.aspx

Insiders: Barrie Cassidy lets Tony Abbott get away with lies, ABC Has Gone To Hell
The interviewer empowered by their preparation must be willing to challenge against objective reality any spurious claims made by the interviewee. Besides the asylum seeker policy, Cassidy failed on all other fronts to pull Abbott up on his cagey behaviour,
abcgonetohell.net/.../

Blame Your Bills On Big Energy, Ben Eltham, New Matilda
Many voters don’t understand that the carbon tax and the RET have little to do with their bill shock. The real reason electricity bills are going up is the National Electricity Market, which is rigged in favour of generators and retailers, and against consumers — as we pointed out here in 2011.
newmatilda.com/2012/07/12/blame-energy-industry

TONY’S BACK-DOOR Bandits, Corinne Grant, The Hoopla
All that being said, I do have a bit of a bone to pick. If your God Of Acceptable Entryways really does want to punish people for coming here by boat instead of plane, then shouldn’t we be doing His work on His behalf? Wouldn’t it make more sense to bring the door sinners
http://thehoopla.com.au/tonys-backdoor-bandits/

Twitter Ruined Breaking News, Probably Forever, David Weigel, Slate
The current news-breaking tool, Twitter, heightens competition by letting "everyone" learn news the second after it's sent. Twitter makes it feel like you've been hopelessly beat to a story if you publish it two minutes later. It also, importantly, muddies up
www.slate.com/.../...ng_news_probably_forever.html

IT’S TIME: Labor needs to take out its Green trash before it’s too late, Nick Mack, Vex News
This is also true about the environment. The Labor Party has to stop apologising for not being as green as the Greens. The public want balance and they want sustainable development. They want to know power stations are working and are affordable. They are not anti-mining, anti-logging or even anti-dams. They want balance –
www.vexnews.com/.../

Ken Henry: why Australia’s non-mining sector will continue to struggle , Ken Henry, The Conversation
A new approach to tackling the structural effects of Australia’s record terms of trade on non-mining industries is needed from both business and government, argues one of Australia’s most eminent economists, Dr Ken Henry.
theconversation.edu.au/ken-henry-why-australias-non-mining-sector-will-continue-to-struggle-8224

ABC apology over detention story not all it seems, Andrew Crook, Crikey
Last night marks the second time the ABC has issued an apology on the asylum seeker issue. Last month, Aunty broadcast a mea culpa to shadow immigration minister Scott Morrison after finance correspondent Stephen Long accused him of playing the race card to drum up fear and loathing in the electorate.
www.crikey.com.au/.../

ASIC’s review of creep provisions puts corporate raiders on notice , Michael Quilter, The Conversation
It’s unsurprising, then, that ASIC has now flagged a sweeping review of Australia’s takeover laws in its submission to Treasury. Michael Quilter, senior lecturer in accounting and corporate governance at Macquarie University, explains the significance of ASIC’s proposals
theconversation.edu.au/asics-review-of-creep-provisions-puts-corporate-raiders-on-notice-8227

Big solar panel company opening in Sydney, sees great future for solar power in Australia, Christina MacPherson, Antinuclear
world’s third largest solar manufacturer is setting up shop in Australia. China-based and NYSE-listed Yingli Green Energy has said it will open an office in Sydney to serve as its regional headquarters. With the unique claim to fame of being the first
antinuclear.net/.../

  Doctors bury their mistakes. Lawyers jail theirs. But bloggers publish theirs for the world to see, MARK PEARSON ,Journlaw
There is an old saying: ‘Doctors bury their mistakes. Lawyers jail theirs. But journalists publish theirs for all the world to see’. That can be applied to anyone writing online today. At least in bygone times these mistakes would gradually fade from memory.
journlaw.com/.../

Greens can thank Libs, Mumble, The Australian
Almost certainly the Greens one. And one major reason is that the Liberal Party is not running a candidate.
blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/.../

The old workhorses of the press gallery have no idea, Jeremy Sear, Pure Poison
Two infuriatingly asinine comments by established press gallery journalists this morning, highlighting just how poorly served are Australians by the media on which they rely for politicalinformation – one by Malcolm Farr, the other by Michelle Grattan.
anonymouslefty.wordpress.com/.../

Late Agenda: Future of Journalism - Part 3 Sky Agenda
www.youtube.com/watch

ABC: Abbott promises ‘workable’ IR laws
australianpoliticstv.org/.../

Today’s Front Pages
Australia Newspaper Front Pages for 13 July 2012
www.frontpagestoday.co.uk/index.cfm

Lyn

July 13. 2012 08:32 AM

Ad astra

LYN'S DAILY LINKS updated: www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...-DAILY-LINKS.aspx

Ad astra

July 13. 2012 08:46 AM

Michael

Bad Abbott

With Conservatives' ideology so narrow, so is their call on language.

Quotable quotes from two leaders of the Coalition, same topic, IR (and specifically Workchoices when leader #1 was in government, but only smirked away from by current leader Tiny Abbott), to illustrate just why every Australian has to listen to Shouldabeen.

If you listen, you'll hear him tell you, and then there are no excuses if you vote Conservative - it's not only turn back the boats, it's turn back Australia.

Seven years separate these quotes, but nothing has changed between the ears of the Coalition's policy makers.


July 12, 2012

OPPOSITION Leader Tony Abbott declared that Australian workers would find he was "their best friend"

www.watoday.com.au/.../...bott-20120712-21yvv.html


JOHN HOWARD, PRIME MINISTER: "This Government has been the best friend that the workers of Australia have ever had."

Australian Broadcasting Corporation, 7.30 Report, Broadcast: 17/04/2007
Reporter: Michael Brissenden

www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s1899860.htm


'With John Howard claiming to be the workers' best friend...'

Australian Broadcasting Corporation, 7.30 Report, Broadcast: 27/06/2005
Reporter: Michael Brissenden

www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2005/s1401708.htm

Michael

July 13. 2012 09:16 AM

LadyInRed

2353.

My feelings about ALP. I think the days of absolute unity are over. I have gone through the following feelings ....oh please just shut up members you are not helping, and just when we seemed to be getting traction.

But now I think that the type of communication we have in the 21st century is changing, more and more we are encouraged to have our own points of view, in schools, in the workplace, on the internet, twitter, facebook, blogs. So I think the ALP actually reflects society as it is now. People have opinions and they share them regardless. The Libs have had some members express their views, Mal Washer comes to mind, so perhaps the way they do business might come accross as unity but it could also be stifling opinions, and may yet work against Abbott. It actually comes accross as a bit militant. Life is messy, groups and their many differing views are messy.

LadyInRed

July 13. 2012 09:17 AM

janice

Good morning all.
Fantastic pome Patricia WA.

janice

July 13. 2012 11:09 AM

Gravel

Janice

Sorry to hear about your eye troubles.  I will keep my fingers crossed that all works out well in the end.

Lyn

I thoroughly agree with Janice, great links today, thanks heaps.

Gravel

July 13. 2012 11:33 AM

Lyn

Good morning Ad and Everybody

Twitterverse for you:-

Financial Review‏ (Free)
Govt says GST does not apply to carbon tax www.afr.com/.../govt_says_gst_does_not_apply_to_08b91KT3wy8mJAz0tS2aFN

Tads‏
Very interesting piece on the players in the Labor Right [free] www.theaustralian.com.au/.../story-e6frg6z6-1226424866165 #auspol

Pamela
www.abc.net.au/.../1352668I'm best friend of workers: Abbott www.theage.com.au/.../...bbott-20120712-21yvv.html via @theage

Stephen C‏
So this Lib can't sleep in the same room as his wife and the taxpayer has to pay for it? www.news.com.au/.../story-fncynjr2-1226424912282

Space Kidette‏
Hey Mr. Abbott. How about standing down Mr. Ciobo until he pays his bills? #auspol

Sally Piracha‏
Media: please ask Tony Abbott about this: Climate 'propaganda' on LNP summit hit list www.brisbanetimes.com.au/.../...0120712-21ygz.html via @brisbanetimes

Gravitas Geek‏
Ashby could face 10 years jail http://is.gd/HwJ6hB#auspol#ashbygate

Ken ‏
WORK CHOICES & TONY ABBOTT ''with friends like that who needs an enemy" http://bit.ly/LREchA ABBOTT'S A TYPICAL LIBERAL SNAKE IN THE GRASS

vexnews‏
Ray Hadley won't apologise for calling Wayne Swan a liar and a boofhead so Swan refers him to ACMA for sanction #auspol http://bit.ly/LiWFqz

Australian Media‏
Journo shield laws face first test: THE Federal Court will today hear arguments on whether reporter Steve Lewis ... http://bit.ly/NsiuDk

The Daily Telegraph‏
GST on carbon tax is inefficient: Hockey http://bit.ly/NbWu0U

Australian Labor‏
There is no GST paid on #carbonprice permits. You should raise any concerns about misleading pricing with the ACCC: assistant.treasurer.gov.au/.../071.htm&pageID=003&min=djba&Year=&DocType=

Judythe Riley‏
# The opposition short on adjectives- no longer toxic tax, now toxic relationships www.smh.com.au/.../...t-action-20120712-21yqt.html Morrison`s paucity of language

Think Big‏@Thought4rce
Newman's LNP going all scorched-earth on facts: news.ninemsn.com.au/.../newman-to-outline-lnp-future-at-convention - can anyone say #dictatorship? #QLDpol

Malcolm Farr‏
No Oz cricket victory since carbon pricing began. Coincidence? Wot about 1.3% GDP rise since carbon laws passed? http://bit.ly/NCkwk4

Louise Hall
Court Reporter for Sydney Morning Herald. Tweets heavily censored due to non-publication orders, suppression orders, legislative restrictions on publication...

Sydney Morning Herald · http://www.smh.com.au
Louise Hall‏@LouiseCHall
Fed court hearing interesting debate about journalist "shield laws" designed to protect confidential sources ‪#slipper‬

15mLouise Hall‏@LouiseCHall
Lawyers for News Ltd journalist say they are not compelled to produce a document cos it identifies a confidential source ‪#slipper‬

Lyn

July 13. 2012 11:34 AM

Ad astra

Hi Lyn
Thanks for another great set of links, which I will work through fully this morning.  Corinne Grant’s piece is magnificent.

http://thehoopla.com.au/tonys-backdoor-bandits/

I’m in the process of writing the next piece.

Patriciawa
What a delightful pome adorned by another Moir cartoon.  I remember fondly Popeye the Sailor Man; his diet of spinach encouraged me to eat my greens.  I really liked Popeye.  But Moir’s use of him as a surrogate for the awful Abbott, while artistically stylish, demeans my dear Popeye.  Abbott is not a fraction of the man Popeye was.

TT
I’m still catching up on yesterday’s comments.  Thank you for posting your exchange with Andrew Elder.  We agree with his Politically Homeless strapline: Tony Abbott will never be Prime Minister of Australia.

LadyinRed
I do enjoy your comments – so sensible, so balanced.  You last one was particularly insightful.  You are a great asset to TPS.

Ad astra

July 13. 2012 11:47 AM

Ad astra

Hi Lyn
It looks as if Mr Ashby and Mr Lewis have some 'issues' to confront.  Interesting times aren't they?

Malcolm Farr's article is not just an interesting read, but signifies a shift from repeating Abbott's dire predictions to laughing about them.  There is nothing more damaging to a politician than public ridicule.

www.thepunch.com.au/.../

Ad astra

July 13. 2012 12:21 PM

42 long

IF sloppy Joe wants to comment on job losses honestly, why doesn't he address the scorched earth policies in QLD NSW etc of Coalition State governments where THEY are sacking large numbers of workers in a savage and crude way to reduce costs, without regard for the consequences. (Flow on loss of essential services etc)
  How could you blame anything but DIRECT ACTION/POLICY of HIS side in the state arena for that?
  C'mon Joe we are not as silly as you look.
  Quote" THe SCARIEST thing in Australia is wayne Swan"
Look about you Joe. It's YOUR leader by a mile.

42 long

July 13. 2012 12:47 PM

2353

LadyInRed,

To a point I agree - the point being that the ALP "allows" public discussion on internal policy and practices - the LNP doesn't.  

Acting LNP president Gary Spence sent an email to LNP members on Friday warning them the party constitution required them not to publicly criticise the party, its office bearers, parliamentary representatives or candidates.
Mr Spence told members that “all statements and comments in relation to the affairs of the party must be made through the appropriate party channels, and not publicly”, including remarks about the current preselection processes.

“The success of the LNP to date has hinged in considerable part on the discipline exhibited by members since the party's formation in adhering to the provisions of the LNP constitution and ensuring that party matters are kept within the party,” Mr Spence wrote.


www.brisbanetimes.com.au/.../...0120709-21rh7.html

In an era when "the message" is all important - is it wise for the ALP to "air it's dirty washing" in public?  Obviously the media picks up on the story (lets face it the political operatives in the country know how to work the media when it suits them) it gives the appearance the ALP doesn't have a cohesive policy at best - or here we go they're going to change PM again at worst.  Regardless the media will hit some ALP frontbencher for a comment on what [insert name here] said before the frontbencher knows it has been said resulting in the frontbencher looking like a fool.  You realistically can't say much good about Abbott, but he has kept on message and there has been little rumour or speculation about what is happening inside the Liberal Party - which gives the appearance of stability.

From the quoted email above, there is obviously dissent within the LNP over various matters - but the act of expelling a former Howard Minster for speaking publicly about internal matters shows how important the "cohesive message" is to the LNP.  And like it or not, the LNP has been winning the marketing campaign.

2353

July 13. 2012 01:19 PM

Michael

"best friend of the workers" will hang around Abbott's neck.

Or it should, but an irony-free and lapsed-memory mainstream Press seems to have given Shouldabeen another free pass.

Michael

July 13. 2012 01:35 PM

42 long

  Appearance is everything. it's quite obviously been an orchestrated act all along. that is no secret. All feathers and no meat. It also needs a non inquiring press. Why there is ant debate about this eludes me. Murdoch has made no secret about the fact he doesn't want Labour in power in australia. and you don't have to be Einstein to work out why. There is now only one employer of journo's and editors in Australia. This should be regarded as a sad state of affairs by anybody who looks at the situation, objectively, not just for NOW. Monopolies are never a good thing.
  The ones who aren't bothered by it at the moment are those who are benefitting.
  Abbotts government will serve it's masters if they get in. Again It's never been more obvious who they are. Will that be good for Australia? Not as I see it.
  We must decide. To do it properly we must be informed. We might be getting there slowly.

42 long

July 13. 2012 02:00 PM

TalkTurkey

Michael
That is a wonderful few quotes, worthy of committing to memory.

All are stones for our slings and arrows for our bows - which is what we have to fight with.

We have not the great presses and the television stations and the vast wealth, but we have the Internet and it is the already-present future.  

As for your *TURN BACK AUSTRALIA* it is exactly that sort of pungent witty phrase that will find weak points in Orc Abbortt's armour, and win us the People's hearts and minds - and the election. As we must.  

I love this blogsite now in case you-all hadn't noticed.

I see it as such a vital hub, it is our good fortune and our pleasure and our privilege to be able to read it day by day gratis, courtesy Ad astra, and Lyn's Daily Links! And to write here too, and even dare to thinks some people might find one's opinions worthy. That to me is another great gift. Thanks to All for that!

Due to Lyn most especially TPS is now at the very core of the political discourse in Australia, she's the sorting brain in our whole online nervous system [and have you seen what Tweetie's Lyn's been doing on Twitter, this very day e.g! She is an absolute legend already!]

So now I see it almost as a - not duty - erm - noblesse obligeation or like that to serve it, in very much the same way as I feel my personal need to try to help the Labor Party.

Indeed, it is the same thing, and it is the very people who are at the core of this blog who are also the ALP's staunchest and Doggedest supporters. Staunch Labor people are the BEST!  

I don't know any better way to serve the interests of the Party I love than to write here, and on Twitter, that's a good thing about the relative anonymity of blognames, it means that one can't get too puffed up on one's own cleverness (says Turkey, gobble gobble pout pout!) and anyway there's so many great writers here and connected-to by Lyn (and others), and the thing is, almost nobody knows you personally so who cares?

Just a nice word, yep, we all like that, but Lyn and Ad and Patricia, Janice NK DMW Michael and all the rest too many to name, I've never met any of you except Ad, and my Fearless Leader here Jason Obelix, who is another staunch True Believer, but it is a pleasure to know you all insofar as this mediun connects minds.  

But it is really only mostly the politics, not sport or poetry (pometry yes!), not art or cookery, that is my interest here, and the good thing is, it's everybody else's too!

Except of course for the trolls, and you know what I always say,

*HAVE*FUN* WITH* TROLLS!*

One more thing today: All I have said is the bleeding obvious, just putting my heart on my sleeve yet again, as I do. But why I do it, well it's always good to remember to re-perceive and re-appraise and re-appreciate what we have here, and try to hone the Sword so it sings clear and effective in every Government and Media and Business boardroom and policy-making body in Australia.

Because even as in elsewhere, here we have the Powere to Pull the People, given a sufficient outrage by such as Abbort.

I am fantasizing social media calling a rally against say Piggy Twiggy land grabs, where everybody had been asked to bring an egg . . . Smile

Que era sera, but here's my blood oath,

VENCEREMOS!

TalkTurkey

July 13. 2012 02:02 PM

TalkTurkey

Que Sera, sorry !

Never meant it . . .

TalkTurkey

July 13. 2012 02:05 PM

TalkTurkey

Que Sera, sorry !

Never meant it . . .

and power not powere . . .

Basta!

TalkTurkey

July 13. 2012 02:15 PM

TalkTurkey

Michael said

"best friend of the workers" will hang around Abbott's neck.


Oops! Remember we called JWH Honest John, in the spirit of redheads being Blue and fat fellers being called Slim, well Howard wore it with pride and made himself a saint on the reputation for honesty! (with all the people it mattered to him with any way.) Except Cricket Australia Bwahahahahahaaaa!

With Abbortt, it's like deja vu happening all over again!

TalkTurkey

July 13. 2012 03:10 PM

Michael

This is going to bite Abbott on the butt bigger than Godwin bit Malcolm.

And then there's Kathy Jackson in that other little case the Coalition will wish they never stuck a tarred oar into.


Over at ABC news online:

Slipper journalist fights to keep documents secret
court reporter Jamelle Wells

Lawyers for the journalist embroiled in the Peter Slipper sex harassment case have argued that he does not have to give documents to the Federal Court because they identify confidential sources.

News Ltd journalist Steve Lewis has been subpoenaed to produce all communication he had with Peter Slipper's staffer James Ashby before Mr Ashby's sexual harassment claims against Peter Slipper became public.

He has been ordered to reveal emails, text messages and phone records to and from former Howard government minister Mal Brough; James Ashby's media advisor, Anthony McClellan; and another staffer, Karen Doane.

The court has previously heard allegations that Steve Lewis sent one text message to a Peter Slipper staffer saying 'We will get him'.

Lawyers for the journalist have told the court they are not compelled to produce some of the documents because they might identify a confidential source.

Michael

July 13. 2012 03:18 PM

LadyInRed

2353

Does anyone believe Turnbull when he stays on message? I know I don't.

I think maybe the Green's thing needs to be aired. I like the Greens and much of what they stand for, but lets face it they can take the moral high ground on many issues because ultimately they are not in government. I got the email from Christine Milne asking for donations to fight for their position and I sent one back saying I will not contribute, sort it out....not that I expect she will take any notice. The thing I respect most about the PM is that she has great negotiating skills, and to have great negotiationg skills means first and foremost you have to listen to the other persons story or position. There can be no negotiating where one side says this is the way it is. So Christine needs to wise up if she really wants to be a force. And I am not asking them to drop any of their principles, they can keep their principles but there is a compromise there, they just have to search for one's they can live with. Then slowly over time things will change.

LadyInRed

July 13. 2012 03:34 PM

42 long

Protecting a confidential source might be a bit off protecting the identity of someone you may reasonably regard of having committed a crime. That would make you an accessory would it not?

42 long

July 13. 2012 03:51 PM

LadyInRed

Ad astra

Thank you for your kind words. I enjoy TPS and really value your thoughts and Lyns links are fabulous.

LadyInRed

July 13. 2012 04:13 PM

2353

LadyInRed,

No I don't believe Turnbull either - however I suggest that both you and I are much more "involved" politically than the average punter that relays on talkback radio, commercial TV news or NewsCorp publications.

I like the Greens too - they have an "image" problem.  Bob Brown when given the opportunity could express the parties point of view for the 30 second sound bite without a problem - at this stage Christine Milne can't.  They also need to learn the word compromise as no one lives in an ideal world.

The ALP needs to understand that while they are chasing the conservative vote that the Liberals have lost in their push to the rabid right under Howard and Abbott, the ALP's left is becoming disillusioned, leading to a level of support for The Greens.  Rather than put motions up to State Conferences mandating The Greens be given last preference (after all, preferences are the right of the voter to give - the political party can only recommend and from my experience a lot of people don't follow the recommendation anyway) and seeking publicity about it, the ALP and Greens should be discussing ways to ensure that Abbott and his crew are given the mother of all hidings in 2013.  There is a long way to go before even a "gentle" hiding is realistic.

2353

July 13. 2012 04:24 PM

Patriciawa

Lady in Red, I certainly don't believe Turnbull when he 'stays on message' and even when he's 'off message' he is no longer credible. A hollow man.  He came across as vain, self centred and unconvincing in that Q&A program.

Well done on the Greens.  I gave almost exactly the same response to their begging letter for donations as you when they pleaded that they were under attack. i.e.

You deserve to be on the issue of asylum seekers.  Grow up or remove your adolescent spokesperson on this issue and do some hard thinking about the real world of today.

Please remove me from your mailing list.  I will rejoin it when your party shows common sense and true humanity in a willingness to work with others for a compromise solution which can start building a regional solution in the best interests of all asylum seekers.


I imagine we would not be alone.  No reply as yet, as you say.

Patriciawa

July 13. 2012 04:30 PM

TalkTurkey

Bravo 'Tricia!

TalkTurkey

July 13. 2012 05:00 PM

Patriciawa

Ad Astra I agree with you about Popeye, and that's the missing element that was holding me back last night from finishing the pome with notes and illustration for posting on my blog.  Abbott may see himself as a Popeye character, as Alan Moir suggests, but he's nothing like the man that Popeye was. So I was sort of expecting a blast from TT, or suggestion on a last verse.  I was careful to only have Abbott claim to be Popeye, but no, like you I still had reservations.   I have to find a way to discredit his claim within the parameters of this, the original Popeye rhyme.

I'm Popeye the Sailor Man,
I'm Popeye the Sailor Man.
I'm strong to the finich
Cause I eats me spinach.
I'm Popeye the Sailor Man.

I'm one tough Gazookus
Which hates all Palookas
Wot ain't on the up and square.
I biffs 'em and buffs 'em
And always out roughs 'em
But none of 'em gets nowhere.

If anyone dares to risk my "Fisk",
It's "Boff" an' it's "Wham" un'erstan'?
So keep "Good Be-hav-or"
That's your one life saver
With Popeye the Sailor Man.


What do you think, TT?

PS  Stitches out!   Four weeks to go in the splint with twice weekly physio.   By the way how many senior citizens have people crowding around to look at their knees and exclaiming
"Beautiful!"

Patriciawa

July 13. 2012 05:27 PM

LadyInRed

Patriciawa

Brilliant reply to Christine.

I have to admit I don't watch more than 10 minutes of Q&A these days before switching it off, so I missed Turnbull. I'll have to start to stick it out and watch the whole thing...shudder. Generally I can't stand the Libs representatives. Why on earth Jones would put on people like Mirrabella (yuk), Brandis (oooh don't like him), Palmer (shudder) beats me. And often the audience is just regurgitating feelings and thoughts from the MSM and look like they have already made up their mind on an acceptable answer and not really interested in the reply. So I'd rather read a book to be honest. Of course I always watch if the PM is on and I would watch Abbott if he were ever to go on. Think I might head off the hte local for drink and a bit of banter. Goodnight to everyone.

LadyInRed

July 13. 2012 05:57 PM

jj

42 Long,

And the Labor party doesnt serve its pay masters? You are an absolute hypocrite!

For all who criticize Turnbull for speaking his mind i ask you this: would you rather a politician that speaks their mind, or one that just regurgitates lines handed to them by their leader. You may not like his popularity among the press and public, but Turnbull is one politician that is able to construct an argument on the spot, and think independently. There is nothing in what he said that is 'hollow'; in fact, if he were to be attacked for anything it would be that he is too genuine (i cant believe anyone would argue that!).

LadyIn Red,

Stick to blogs like this and other less balanced publications. You are right, Q&A airs views that are different to your own, which i know many of you on the left cannot cope with. You wouldnt want to broaden your horizons now would you!

You all,

Whilst all of you chastise the greens for being too pure and immature, all i have to say is that it is the party that most of you support that decided to form government with them. Gillard did not have to form government with anyone if she didnt want to, but she did.

The Greens are a party filled with contradictions, as is the Labor Party. it is for this reason that i think they have worked so well together over the past few years. However, as the Labor Party is a contradictory party, it is no surprise that it has begun to turn on its friends.

jj

July 13. 2012 05:59 PM

jaycee

The realpolitik of the greens is that they NEED Labor to fail....completely..it is only then they can assume the position of a major party in this "two party" system. Labor DOES have an unholy alliance with them for this reason..HOWEVER, the greens also are not yet sophisticated enough politically to become a major political operative to govern a nation...at the risk of flippancy, may one remark that in this "area", they are a bit green!
The trouble is, we have the Labor right-wing acting as a feral commentator(has it ever been otherwise) on the alliance and muddying the waters of the alliance.
Unless there is an awakening of sensible judgement with the electorate and the LNP. is given the boot it deserves, Labor and the Greens will need to stand shoulder to shoulder in mutual support lest they both fall....After all, it would not be difficult for the MSM. to tar either party with the same brush if it wanted to, they seem to have the publics'"Van Goths ear" to pour their invective into!

jaycee

July 13. 2012 06:46 PM

42 long

  JJ
  I just want everyone to realise WHO OWNS the  LNP. As far as being a hypocrite I will leave that judgement to others whose opinions I value much more than yours. I wasn't discussing the Labour supporters but they include a lot of ordinary people that I think should have a say, and I sincerely believe that the rotten Abbott doesn't care for. The ordinary worker has the right of forming a representative association as part of a convention that we ratify but which Tony would deny them the right to exercise, so I don't mind if there are a few ex union leaders in the ALP. They have a lot better experience and track record, and skills to negotiate and deal with people than most of the LNP who think ruling is their god given right, and would destroy all workers rights and the rights of collective representation, given the chance as that is their aim. I'm not that interested in your views, because you don't really want to listen to any of this. You're only here to damage.

42 long

July 13. 2012 07:09 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Does anyone actually believe Ad Astra’s “analysis” is fair and balanced? Or (more realistically) does it just represent an opportunity for him to endorse yet another ALP back flip/volte face/u-turn?

Tom of Melbourne

July 13. 2012 07:53 PM

Jason

ToM,
   Yes I believe Ad Astra!

Jason

July 13. 2012 08:01 PM

Jason

ToM,
   How's that list coming on of all your great achievements that you have done to make peoples life better? put up or shut up!

Jason

July 13. 2012 08:21 PM

jaycee

Some people. it may be said are "fishers of men"....Tom, it must be recognised, is a fisher of squibs!....onya, pet!

jaycee

July 13. 2012 08:28 PM

Ad astra

Jason
Thank you.  I'm waiting to hear from those, apart from ToM, who believe that this analysis is not fair and balanced.  Surely they won't be afraid to speak their mind.

As I'm finishing a piece for tomorrow: Is it the job of the Opposition to oppose? NO,  I'm calling it  day.

Ad astra

July 13. 2012 08:39 PM

Jason

jaycee,
      ToM is like a flasher on a very cold day!
with the police saying move along folks nothing to see here.

Jason

July 13. 2012 09:40 PM

2353

JJ & TfM - does Clive know your playing here again?  Thought you'd both be too busy in the "rarefied" air at the LNP Convention.

Like Jason I'm also waiting for the list of how you have helped people TfM.  JJ, I'm waiting for a cohesive argument with a point to it.

2353

July 13. 2012 11:03 PM

jj

42 Long,

With those sorts of ridiculous sentiments there is no point even rebutting what you attempted to put forward as a response.

But i will say this: the LNP is a party made up of people that come from all walks of life. The Labor Party on the other hand is a party made up of people that inevitably come from the same union background. I myself (as well as most Australian's it would seem) would prefer to be led by a political party that is more representative of Australia today (compared with the current Labor Party which doesnt know who to represent).

Ad Astra,

Nothing on this blog is fair and balanced...and surely you recognise this. This blog is designed to appeal to people that are on the left of the political pendulum, with the pieces posted reflecting such attitudes. In no way can this blog claim to be fair and balanced, just as Andrew Bolt's blog can't, and doesn't.

The piece you have written comes straight from the call sheets of the Labor Party, blaming Abbott for all of the mess our Government finds itself in. In no way does it recognise the absolute hypocrisy of people within the Labor Party and on this blog, who attacked the Coalition for the 'inhumane' policies of offshore processing, and blamed the boat people issue on push factors. These same people cheered when the Rudd Government tore down the Pacific Solution, only to find that they needed to put something similar back in its place (with LESS human rights protections!!!), in order to address the dominant pull factors. The hide you and your Labor comrades have in attacking the opposition as being cowards, when you yourselves are yet to apologise for creating the situation we now find ourselves in by taking the moralistic approach of the greens (which you now HYPOCRITICALLY ATTACK!!!) in the past, is just disgusting. You have flipped and flopped to a point of irrelevance in this place, and you should just allow the policies of the Coalition to be implemented and step back and allow them to take responsibility for the issue.

Disgraceful, hypocritical, devious and dishonest. Four words that sum up the ALP.

jj

July 13. 2012 11:32 PM

42 long

jj get help soon. You have lost all claim to reality. Some of us do want to discuss things. Black and white is not where it is.

42 long

July 14. 2012 12:47 AM

jane

jj, Julia Gillard negotiated an agreement with the INDEPENDENTS to form a minority government, not the Greens. There is no Greens/Labor alliance.

Liealot had exactly the same opportunity to negotiate support from the Independents to enable him to form a minority government, but failed utterly to convince them that he was either trustworthy or competent.

That is plain unvarnished fact.

And it seems you're unable to understand that a party called the LABOR PARTY would have been formed by workers to represent workers-you know, the people who actually do the work, not silvertails.

The modern Labor Party is easily as diverse as you claim the Liars Party to be, probably more so.

As for the so-called Pacific Solution, read the link below for a critique of its efficacy and "humane" treatment of asylum seekers.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3886792.html

Finally, Ad astra has not accused the Liars party of cowardice in this post.

But their bullying, hypocritical, devious, dishonest, disgraceful and gutless attacks on Craig Thomson, who has still not been charged with any offence, speaks for itself.

All of this, when at the same time, there were at least 5 LNP MPs and Senators, including Liealot himself, who had either been convicted of a crime or were the subject of action, also highlights their utter hypocrisy, dishonesty, deviousness and cowardice.

Liealot's callous denial of a pair to Thomson when his wife was in labour underlines what a gutless bully he really is; and it was only the fear of adverse polls which prompted him to grant the pair.

And the supremely gutless labelling of Peter Garrett as a murderer in Coward's Castle.

Then we come to the stream of Liealot and Liars Party lies and obfuscations-exposed by Ad astra and JohnL in their posts earlier this year.

www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...of-your-lies.aspx

www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...-a-crass-war.aspx

www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...tion-inquiry.aspx

However, I reserve my greatest derision for this ludicrous and laughable statement from you:

......you should just allow the policies of the Coalition to be implemented and step back and allow them to take responsibility for the issue.

Policies? What policies? Please enlighten us, but remember slogans aren't policies, neither is the word NO! Good luck finding anything even vaguely resembling a policy.

jane

July 14. 2012 02:05 AM

TalkTurkey

There is a reptilian man on ABC 24 Lateline, versus the admirable Fay(?), I don't know who he is, Ian someone, like Hanky, snot-rag more like it! Smile OOOH he's nasty. But Fay has flayed him with logic and fact. Very much Woman Power versus Bigot Bully. And Woman Power wins hands down. Well done Fay!

Intervieweress done a great job too, kept them separate and gave each a propertunity to say their piece. SnotRag dug himself and the Abborttians into a big hole. Fay gracefully and sweetly buried him!

I know, Comrades, that I have long predicted the Rooting of Abbortt, (that was meant to be ROTTING but let the typo stand!) well he's been kept half-alive like a Zombie by big money, mining interests, big tobacco, by a media whose bias one could never have anticipated, and most especially the BLOODY ABC, a nest of right-wing vipers who should be the tellers of truth and who are instead traitors to it. And since they are in the pay of The People, and since they are entrusted with telling the truth, I ACCUSE THEM of TREACHERY.

The Uhlmann and Lewis Connection - Pyne gone to ground - Brough a proven liar - and much much more - let's explore that a bit later.

Meanwhile, like a terminal patient whose every organ is infected and failing, kept alive by a cocktail of antibiotics and everything possible, oxygen whenever he needs it, Abbortt is the walking dead. His manic repetitive "press conferences" Smile remind me of a crazed caged bear I once saw, it shuffled up the cage one way, 5 short steps, turned around, shuffled back, BUMP!ed its head against the steel wall at the other end . . . Turned around . . . repeat . . . ad infinitum. Top of its head was worn bare. Sort of an Abbott haircut, IYSWIM!

Abbortt is to be pitied really. He is like that bear, crazed, crazy, mentally ill. He is truly obsessive-compulsive. He cannot and will not break out of this closed behaviour, and his "closest friends" know it.

Name me one person who is a genuine friend of Abbortt. I'll bet you can't. Poor bastard. How is he going to feel when he falls?

Privately, individually, many are well into wondering what to do about the quagmire they have willingly and blindly been led into. Labor is ever-more-confident now, having passed every bit of important legislation bar one, the Asylum Seekers Bills: even that is no winning issue for Abbortt, to the contrary from here on, Labor can stand on its record of preparedness to negotiate - we have nowhere else to go anyway, well we're bloody prepared to go everywhere as it is! - but the Greens and the Abborttians both are on very slippery ground. Labor must and will win this issue, and with as decent a strategy as can possibly be achieved. Because we're Labor, and that's the way we work. Not always perfect, but just the best that can be achieved.  

Greens, FFS take a leaf from Bob Dylan, Get out of the New World if you can't lend a hand! Because all you Greens have done for years is make the way of the Workers' party almost impossible. That yet we prevail is despite your lot really, not because of it.

No excuses. All in all the Greens have been disastous for progressive  politics here, the last time they did anything useful was when Bob Brown helped Save the Franklin, most of which even then was of course down to Hawke Labor, labor was the Government! Greens have sucked on that false glory ever since. Well it's time they was weaned off Labor.

I salivate schadenfreudanistically when I consider the coming vindication of Slipper and Thomson, and the concomitant comeuppance of Ashby, Pyne, Brough, Hockey, Bishop Jnr. Credlin Doane and all the other creepy critters caught in their own web of Fascistic Papalistic intrigue.

Some could and plainly should go to gaol for lengthy terms for crimes up to and including sedition - attempting by conspiracy and deceit to overthrow a legitimate Government!

This is what the Yanks call Heavy Shit, Man! Mandatory death-sentence stuff in other places and times, and very bloody serious here - except the Media treat the culprits with kid gloves, and many of our people are quite happy to yawn or get upst about Judd of the AFL doing something unpleasant instead.  

But Comrades we are waking them up to this terrible threat to Australia's democracy and its bid to be a fair society. A tough call yes. But we have the ammo, the hard yards on the legislative front are done, now we have the hard fighting - different, but very earthy. So as *J*U*L*I*A* said - Bring it on!

The Abborttians' chances are shrinking daily, like Tony's scrotum, (for Girls I am in a position to predict with a high degree of certitude that Tony's tiny testes are fully retracted into his abdominal cavity by now  - imagine where they were when he was talking to SBY in Darwin! Smile) and his budgie won't be very bulgey at all by now.

Double the fist. Set the jaw. Summon up the blood, Comrades. This is a war in which women in their 80's, some battling cancer or cataracts, can be every bit as fierce and effective warriors as any Abbortt, and then some. So we face a fight to relish, with such soldiery on our side.

VENCEREMOS!  

  

TalkTurkey

July 14. 2012 06:54 AM

Truth Seeker

What TT said!

Truth Seeker

July 14. 2012 08:38 AM

janice

There is a reptilian man on ABC 24 Lateline, versus the admirable Fay(?), I don't know who he is, Ian someone, like Hanky, snot-rag more like it!  OOOH he's nasty. But Fay has flayed him with logic and fact. Very much Woman Power versus Bigot Bully. And Woman Power wins hands down. Well done Fay!

I agree TT.  Ian, whomever he is, looks and acts like the typical Nat redneck.  Didn't you love it when he declared that the audience for the Ipswich Community Cabinet was 'stacked'?  Of course they would believe that because the LNP, especially their unhinged leader, has never fronted up and taken questions unless they can be guaranteed the audience would be friendly.  Cowardly mongrels.

With a little bit of luck the cowardly one will experience some discomfort in China if he pisses them off and someone laces his flied lice with cascara.

janice

July 14. 2012 08:39 AM

jaycee

As a last word to this article..jj..Yes, we all know what sort of people the LNP. is made up of...we do read the police reports you know!..and many of us are old enough to be reasonable judges of what makes so many LNP. members of parliament a bunch of cowards and crawlers.
So go check your stocks and shares and we'll "cross swords" next article...until then, as TT states so vociferously : "VENCEREMOS!"

jaycee

July 14. 2012 10:44 AM

Lyn

Good Morning Ad and Everybody

Twitterverse:-

Stilgherrian‏
Folks, don't go to the crikey_news website to "have a look". Google reports that it's set up with drive-by downloads to infect you in turn.

Miss Eagle‏
crikey_news: Our website appears hacked. Our team are working on a resolution. But for security of your own system steer clear for now.

Crikey.com.au‏
Our website appears to have been hacked. Our team are working on a resolution. But for the security of your own system steer clear for now.

Ken ‏
News Ltd's Steve Lewis is fighting to protect Liberal party sources http://bit.ly/SkMfY3 JUDGE MUST MAKE HIM SURRENDER SET-UP DOCUMENTS

News to challenge media regulation
Kim Williams will take action in the High Court
www.theaustralian.com.au/.../story-e6frg996-1226425441232

Leigh Sales‏@leighsales
Kim Williams' address to the SA Press Club re challenges facing the media.
resources.news.com.au/.../...-williams-address.pdf

The Daily Telegraph‏@dailytelegraph
Coles dispute heads to Vic Supreme Court http://bit.ly/NA9RXr

Mr Abbott, who was introduced as the "next primer minister of Australia", came onto the stage following what appeared to be a campaign ad,
www.heraldsun.com.au/.../story-e6frf7kf-1226425262155

Andrew‏
People's need to flee means the boats will never stop www.theage.com.au/.../...-stop-20120713-2210p.html via @theage

Brad‏
www.theage.com.au/.../...cklog-20120713-221jw.html Wonder if Abbott has considered Indonesia in his rants ?? probably not...#tool

Sarah Kate‏
Why do we have to watch Julie bishop at the QLD LNP conference but we can't watch the ALP NSW one Frown? #abcnews24

Jessica Rowe‏
Why Australia needs to be a place of welcome. 'Stopping the boats' rhetoric doesn't work via @EleniePoulos www.smh.com.au/.../...ver-stop-20120713-2210p.html

Greg Jericho‏
Sinodinos suggesting Indonesia would "respect the mandate of a new Australian govt" re turning back the boats. Lulz

Stunt Spud‏
ABCNews24 Can you give me stats please on how often Mr Sinodinos does this segment? #auspol

Stunt Spud‏
AustralianLabor can we plase have a reaction from you guys to Abbott's comment about Gough Whitlam & now Sinodinos calling JG 'road kill'?

david ewart‏
Gillard is road kill? Did sidonus really say that ? --

MrRabbitt‏
BrisVegian: "You do that by scaring the s--- out of stupid people"http://www.theage.com.au/world/-221ch.html”Loved that quote...remind you of anyone?

National Times‏
David Marr calls it quits... ‪#Marr‬ talks about his decision, and the future of news and journalism http://bit.ly/NpW5G8

Daniel Hurst‏
Tony Abbott is about to address the @LNPQLD convention. We have rolling coverage of the event here: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/rol … ‪#qldpol‬ ‪#auspol‬

Lyn

July 14. 2012 11:07 AM

Tom of Melbourne

What was condemned in the previous government is vigorously supported when proposed by this government.

”Putting politicians and commentators to the verbal sword, unless specifically you’re an ALP politician or commentator.”

Hypocrisy.

Tom of Melbourne

July 14. 2012 11:32 AM

Jason

ToM,
   Bit early in the day isn't it for another Hissy fit?
Toughen up princess.

Jason

July 14. 2012 11:59 AM

Ad astra

Hi Lyn
Even on Saturday the Twitterverse is fascinating.  Isn’t it satisfying to see the media under the pump!   Media people believe they ought to call all the shots, not we consumers. So with Steve Lewis squirming, and Kim Williams ramping up his protest against media regulation, we are seeking the boot on the other foot for a change.

David Marr can see the writing on the wall, so he is departing with a kiss thrown towards his beloved Fairfax, which I suspect he fears will not be beloved should Gina Rinehart get her way.

Ad astra

July 14. 2012 12:26 PM

Patriciawa

Many thanks for all the links and twitterverse, Lyn.  Does the alert on Crikey apply to the Pollbludger too?

AA, I thought Marr was very soft on today's Fairfax, much less what it might become,  but then he seems soft generally these days. I hate seeing those glimpses of him on ABC's promotion of Randling.  I guess he needs to earn a living if he hasn't by now invested enough in his future. Is he trying to sort out his entitlements as he leaves?

TT, thanks for your stirring message.  I need it this morning, maybe a bit down after a high yesterday, but I am more than a bit discouraged reading about the developments in Queensland re climate change on the curriculum and their big development plans. Book burning next?   Feels like we're on the brink of a new Dark Ages sometimes.  But you're right we must keep up the fight!  "VENCEREMOS!" and again, "VENCEREMOS!"  We must!

Patriciawa

July 14. 2012 12:29 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Jason, I just find it immensely entertaining that each week Ad Astra produces a weighty essay, and the final sentence will invariably say – ”This is a great government, and the media is to blame for it’s unpopularity”

Hypocrisy and predictability, it’s got something to keep everyone entertained.

Tom of Melbourne

July 14. 2012 12:48 PM

Jason

ToM,
   I find it highly entertaining for someone who refuses to vote has so much to say about those that do vote.
I assume since you didn't vote, neither Labor or the Liberal party were up to govern this country yet you can only find fault with Labor!
Apart from Labor and Ad Astra who do you put to the sword to on this site? Fair enough to yell "Hypocrisy and predictability" if you weren't guilty of it it yourself so back to the drawing board old son practice what you preach!

Jason

July 14. 2012 12:57 PM

2353

Various comments above refer to ALP minority Government and the deeply offensive way they took victory from the admirable and wonderful team from the LNP that would have led us all into a greater nirvana that that established by Howard in the late 90's.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but they should remember this - as they were there at the time.  Except for Queensland, there is an arrangement known as a coalition between the Liberal Party and the National Party, by tradition the agreement lapses at the declaration of an election and is re-negotiated.  The negotiations were successful apparently as a new agreement was signed.

The ALP and Greens made an arrangement that covers the Greens MP & Senators will guarantee supply and (in certain circumstances) confidence in the Government of the day if it comes to a vote.  It certainly doesn't and wasn't intended to ensure the Greens and the ALP are "lock step" in the governance of the country in the same way the coalition has operated for a number of decades.

Both major tribes leaders (Gillard and Abbott) commenced negotiations with a number of unaligned MP's.  Two came to a decision fairly quickly Wilke (despite the offer of a billion for a new hospital in Hobart) and a WA National Party member (who are apparently separate from the eastern states Nationals).  The other three negotiated for something like three weeks with Katter eventually supporting the Coalition and the other two supporting the ALP.

So the question needs to be asked - why is it Gillard and the ALP's fault that Abbott obviously can't negotiate; had nothing to offer or is just so far away from reality that it scared the bejeezes out of two ex-eastern states National Party members?  

That the same person who claims to deeply Christian but would "turn asylum seekers around" has gone on a crusade (pun intended) around the country to demonise the legitimate government of this country ever since suggests that the two Independents are indeed good judges of peoples motives and intent.   While the ALP Government is far from perfect (and can't sell ice to eskimos) it seems to be a much better bet than the vindictiveness and bitterness offered by the alternative - because they didn't get the "top job".

So - some homework for our resident trolls (or Clive's paid employees - I'm not sure which).  Demonstrate to me why anyone should tolerate Abbott's continual bleating and negativity when he obviously can't negotiate.  This of course is in addition to the homework requested by others on this blog.

2353

July 14. 2012 01:01 PM

2353

Small edit - the WA Nationals member's name is Crook

2353

July 14. 2012 01:04 PM

TalkTurkey

ToM our pet Troll says,

. . . each week Ad Astra produces a weighty essay, and the final sentence will invariably say – ”This is a great government, and the media is to blame for it’s unpopularity”


No, Ad astra knows how to deploy punctuation. ToM manages 3 errors n this, the first " is wrog-way-round, there's no fillstop and the apostrophe is wrong. I don't care if no-poseur writers make such trivial mistakes, but when those who claim intellectual superiority like ToM can't work out by now how to deploy apostrophes, then I KNOW their brains are porridge.

Maybe someone could let ToM know? I don't feed the trolls, only tease them . . .

TalkTurkey

July 14. 2012 01:06 PM

TalkTurkey

Whereas I NEVER make typos. Smile

TalkTurkey

July 14. 2012 01:19 PM

Per Ardua

An article re Crikey hack - a bit old now but they hope to fix it in a few hours.

"My guess is that it will take a few hours to fix.

"We'll keep people updated on our Facebook page and Twitter account and let them know when we're up and running again."

www.smh.com.au/.../...n-hacked-20120714-222et.html

Per Ardua

July 14. 2012 01:30 PM

Tom of Melbourne

” why is it Gillard and the ALP's fault that Abbott obviously can't negotiate

Perhaps check this with Andrew Wilkie

Tom of Melbourne

July 14. 2012 01:33 PM

Per Ardua

From Twitter:
Crikey.com.au @crikey_news 44m

After a hacking incident this morning Crikey has been restored. Bear with us while we get all content up to date. Thanks for the goodwill!

Per Ardua

July 14. 2012 01:40 PM

Smithe

Good article on AS ad Astra, well thought out and argued.

Some of the comments are a bit disappointing, still, I suppose that's to be expected.

You ask people to put a figure on how many AS we should accept and to specify their own solutions to the boat problem, but few seem interested in doing so.

I'llhave a go. I think we could cope with up to 60,0000 per annum without the wheels falling off. That's not an MCG crowd, but probably a decent SCG one. many more than this and the infrastructure would start creaking.

Of course, no number is going to stop the boats coming. There will still be people who miss out and will chance their hand on a people smuggler. The only solution to this is a regional solution whereby  we at in concert with regional governments to shut the trade down at it's source, ie in Malaysia, Thailand and Indonesia.

I believe that the Government's Malaysian Solution was at least a stab in the right direction and could have formed the kernel of such a regional solution if given a chance.

Apologies for typos...this was done on an IPad.

Smithe

July 14. 2012 01:56 PM

Smithe

I can' be bothered reading all the comments here as the thread is just too long, but I note from Jason above that there seem to be a couple of people here who don't vote but who nevertheless see fit to engage in policy discussion and also advising the remainder of us as to how we would cast our votes.

I always find this sort of thing amusing.

It's a bit like a toothless person pumping their gums advising others on dental hygiene. Very helpful.

Smithe

July 14. 2012 01:58 PM

Tom of Melbourne

As I’ve said, Ad Astra’s essay is laden with faux compassion-

•  In response to the anguish of those who were kept in Nauru for long periods, many of whom suffered severe mental health problems

•  they ignore the terrible mental trauma suffered by those incarcerated on Nauru and Manus Island

•  long and emotionally traumatic periods of separation occurred.


He conveniently ignores the anguish that will be suffered by asylum seekers who are simply shipped off to Malaysia, without qualificatoin. He ignores the mental trauma and anguish they’ll obviously suffer.

Ad Astra makes no sense with the fake concern he expresses - he’s endorsing sending asylum seekers off shore.


Then we have -
”push factors’ being greater than they were in 2001”

Really? This means the asylum seekers are clearly more likely to be genuine, more desperate, more in need of the protection they seek from this country.

But Ad Astra simply finds it easier to advocate sending all of them, men women and children without qualification, to Malaysia.

Now that’s partisan hypocrisy, big time.

Tom of Melbourne

July 14. 2012 02:10 PM

Ad astra

Smithe
Welcome to The Political Sword family.  Do come again.  Thank you for your kind words.

I appreciate your comment, with which I agree.  I think we could accommodate 60,000 a year, which would start to clear some of the backlog, although, as you say, those still waiting would still be inclined to get on unsafe boats.  A regional solution that involved a collaborative endeavour among regional nations looks like a sensible way to go.

I wish all comments were as sensible as yours, but as we can’t choose who comments here, we have to take the poor with the good.

Ad astra

July 14. 2012 02:41 PM

42 long

  We really can't do much on our own. It's logical to get as many of the countries to our North to work with us. It's a world wide problem.
  As to push and pull factors, one can postulate on those for ever but circumstances change and that is why "it worked before and will work again" is not able to take real scrutiny.
   No doubt many of those trying are known to people already here, and also trouble spots are not diminishing.
   The Tamil  situation in Sri Lanka is something that should be looked at at source. Some of those may try Cocos Island which is only a coral atoll barely 15 feet above sea level Having a reasonable airstrip on one part of it. I can't imagine that we can reasonably accommodate many there.
   The only way to deter people is to make conditions very unpleasant for them. Some of the conditions they are escaping from are so bad that to consider something worse would require a gross exercise in sadism, and we really shouldn't go there. Demonising them is awful and they don't deserve that and it makes us look revolting and behave in a revolting way.
   The ROT started when this was made a big political issue. I think K Rudd started that and the LNP are still smarting somewhat understandably. That was then and this is NOW. Time to grow up and be human. Leave what Christ would do out of it. getting "GODS' into anything political ends in disaster.
  There will be nothing but damage till some bi partisan solution is reached. There will never be a perfect solution to this but to attempt to gain political advantage from it is reprehensible in the extreme.

42 long

July 14. 2012 02:54 PM

Michael

Channel surfing so only caught about twenty seconds of Julie Bishop addressing the LNP convention this morning, but she looked and sounded flustered right down to the points of her stiletto heels.

Don't be surprised if something erupts in Coalition-world very soon.

The "cockroach" may well be seeking a new nest.

Michael

July 14. 2012 03:27 PM

jj

I cannot believe that all of you on here attempt to paint this blog as a beacon of apolitical dialogue! Look at all of Lyn's links. Look at all of Ad A's pieces. Look at all of the vicious comments made by his comrades on this blog. In no way does this blog represent the feelings of the public, nor political reality. You are fringe dwellers. You sit in front of your computers, reading from the same incestuous pool of left wing nut-jobs who think the Labor Party is the party of greatness and invincibility. It is because of people like you who continue to stick their heads in the sand that the Labor Party is close to collapse all around the country.

The polls are telling you, and he general political intelligentsia is telling you that there is "something rotten in the state of..." the ALP, and yet you choose to be ignorant. Instead of blaming everyone else for your troubles how about you advocate for reform? Or maybe you are just all too conservative!

jj

July 14. 2012 03:33 PM

Jason

jj,
  What was the name of your blog again?

Jason

July 14. 2012 04:05 PM

42 long

I have some difficulty with those who find everything here suitable only to criticise. IF you don't like it there are plenty of sites full of the sort of  comment you may prefer. If most of us here are not acceptable to you, the solution is obvious. Based on the contribution so far I can't see the problem from our point of view. Let me assure you that we will get over it. Cemeteries are full of indispensible people

42 long

July 14. 2012 04:29 PM

Marilyn

Well Indonesia has started the pushback against our laziness and lies.

We currently pay tens of millions per annum to force Indonesia to jail refugees on our behalf in hell hole prisons where they face the threat of deportation, torture, beatings, rotten food, no school, no work and no chance of a life.

Indonesia is finally sick to death of our whining and want us to accept the responsibility for these people the Indonesian's don't want.

So instead of finding ways to push away and punish those people how about we actually help them and force DIAC to get out of the super control mode they are in.

It's all only about a so-called quota you know, it's not about anything else.

Marilyn

July 14. 2012 04:57 PM

Tom of Melbourne

” IF you don't like it there are plenty of sites full of the sort of  comment you may prefer.

If a political site makes claims to support “putting politicians and commentators to the verbal sword” and then only parrots the latest policy u-turn from the government, people who are actually independently minded will point out the rank hypocrisy of this.

Tom of Melbourne

July 14. 2012 05:17 PM

42 long

For a Party that just does U turns it has PASSED a record amount of legislation, But of course ToM you're so independently fair minded that you only ever offer the most balanced comments. You suffer the same affliction as Tony does. You think if you repeat the same thing often enough we will all believe you. Different audience here. Haven't you noticed?

42 long

July 14. 2012 05:27 PM

Tom of Melbourne

42 Long, I’m not the one running a political blog, who makes the false claim.

Tom of Melbourne

July 14. 2012 05:34 PM

Ad astra

Folks
I have just now posted: Is the job of the Opposition to oppose? NO.  Enjoy.

www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...to-oppose-NO.aspx

Ad astra

July 14. 2012 05:42 PM

Ad astra

Folks
I'm closing comments on this piece now.

The next piece gives us the opportunity to focus on the substance of the subject, rather than getting sidetracked on inconsequential matters by those who choose to come here simply to simulate 'the pugilistic Abbott'.  One pugilist is more than enough.

Ad astra

July 14. 2012 06:14 PM

TalkTurkey

Michael
I'm still tipping the Ides of September as the time when Abbortt-aborting moves will first surface. The Liberals are too chickenshit to arssassinate him quick, they will in the vernacular fartarse about, hoping like penguins on an icefloe that someone else will take the plunge first because that's the way you find out that whether the ol' Leopard Seal still has what it takes to outdo 'em . . .

Oh now Patricia, Sorry I haven't answered much, I'm no sort of authority on anything. I just write rhyming verse the way it makes most sense to me. I have told you before, I am a slave to pedantry but also to naturalism in the sorts of constructions I use, but that's the English-Teacher's-English-Teacher-Son coming out in me you must see. Yes I write sort of perfect verse because that's what my Muse demands, old B*tch she is, but it doesn't make me a critic.

I think I divide "poetry" into several parts. The images . . . the sounds . . . the meanings . . . the craft . . . the  words . . . the universality . . . and there's an X-factor too. (Making this up as I go along.)

Right, you got DH Lawrence describing (wording from 50+ years ago memory!) how he realized suddenly that the swallows he had been watching in late dusk had
without warning
metamorphosed . . .
. . .  
". . . .Swallows?
Never Swallows!
Bats!
Bats, that hang themselves disgustingly upside down,
like bits of black umbrella!"

Well it doesn't need rhyme nor meter to be Poetry does it? It just feels so pre-digestedly perfect, you just think Yeahhhhh because there's nothing else to think. So that's sort of poetry per sensation and metaphor and image.  

Bits of Black umBrella eh! Onomatopoeia and alliteration in one, the flapping of the bats, the horrid image of these 'disgusting' creatures (not to me!)  . . . His surprise and revulsion, all in a few words.

But he was DHLawrence after all.

I'm sort of perfectionist with the craft part, Pity Me, if it was any other language I couldn't be so, there just aren't enough word choices any other language. As it is I can almost always find a decent rhyme and way around a phrase to make it sound ordinary-speechy, so SWMBO - in this cse my Muse - demands I do it. I'm the same with my tessellating graphcs, nothing short of perfect will do. Sad case, me.

Now it is true imo that you are not so driven as I to achieve all of the mechanical workings as I. Popeye is a case in point I think.

Now if it was me doing it . . .

I would go to the exact source, viz.,

I'm Popeye the Sailor Man!
I'm Popeye the Sailor Man!
I eat all my spinich
Right up to da finich! -
I'm Popeye the Sailor Man!

So then I'd either go with that A1-A1-B1-B2-A1 form, it's a sort of weak limerick because of the repetitions, or rather I would try to apologise to Popeye for pinching his format, by improving on it, like

I'm Popeye the Sailor Man
I eats Spinach when I can!
The sweet Olive Oyl's
My favourite Goyl,
Ad astra's my lifelong Fan!

So, A1-A2-B1-B2-A3 - the true Limerick form. With a bit of a whiplash ending, (because it's true Smile) and so deploys the form properly.

Or btw the last line could be a repeat of the first, that would work quite well too, to reiterate Popeye's self-intro, without belabouring it as in the original.  

But in any case they would be 5-liners, long-long-short-short-long. So I'm a bit surprised you departed from that exact form.

All right, you asked, I'll say what I would or wouldn't do, but that's me. In the meantime don't forget you have thousands of readers all over the Internet, I only write here.  

You said:
I'm Abbott,  a fighting man
Like Popeye the Sailor Man
I’ll fight to the finish
So watch me demolish.
Every last Labor plan.

>I wouldn't even mention Popeye. That is in Popeye's eye! Use the form openly, perfectly fine for parody, but it only adds injury to insult to actually name him here, unless to lionise him and to belittle Abbortt. Nothing personal to you btw Patricia, I'm always apologising to long-dead songsters for parodising their lovely works with rhymes about Pyne or Reith, so mea culpa most of all. And I'm'a keep doing it anyway, if it will help cause Them grief and Us merriment. Smile Because it's part of our winning strategy, to out-wit them.

Oh, then there's demolish wanting to rhyme with finish. Well it won't, but nil desperandum, I'd do a *J*U*L*I*A* and find a different way round. With no Popeye, and no word spin(i)ch to rhyme, and since you want to use demolish as the operative verb, seems to me you could use polish to advantage, like, well,


I'm Tony the No-No Man!
Whatever you want, I'll ban!
I'm all spit-and-polish!
Just watch me demolish
Every last labor plan!

So that's the first verse if it was me. You did ask.

But then to my surprise you went to a sort of six-line format. I'm a little mystified by it though I can sing it - sort of - to Popeye. But why six lines? They're harder and unnatural. Look, the two hooky lines are the first two:  


I'm tougher than Julia
So don’t let her fool ya
That I aint on the square.
I’ll biff ‘er and buff 'er
And always out rough 'er
And make sure she gets nowhere.

I think they should be lines 3 & 4 in a true limerick. (DIY!) It can then have a whiplash too. Your baby.

The rest of that verse isn't all that flash anyway, so it's easy to think of something else. Look this is just Turkey way of thinking about rhyme, maybe it'll help you see the sort of open-ended shifting spanner sort of approach I take to rhyme, it's like English is this fantastic array of so-nuanced thought-tools, and I hate crossing a beautiful brass thread with rhymes and constructs that don't do Her justice iyswim. I am not above using a dead-tree Roget's Thesaurus!  

I'm not going into the rest except perhaps the last verse, where I don't think I can wear fisk instead of fist, especially knowing this limerick:

There was a young fencer named Fisk
Who at fencing was frightfully brisk:
So swift was his action
The Fitzgerald Contraction
Foreshortened his foil to a disc!

(There is a bawdy version, in which the word fencer is replaced with a shorter f-word, and the foil is replaced very alliteratively with a d-word instead! Have you got all that, Dear Reader?)

BTW the Fitzgerald Contraction is a now-proven relationship between matter and velocity that proposes that the faster matter moves the flatter it gets . . .The reasoning is perfectly simple . . . I just do't feel like explaining it right now.

Whatever the facts is
I can show how her taxes
All hurt the working man.
And I’ll win all their votes
By stopping the boats.
A real Popeye the Sailor man.

Watch out Indonesia
Or I’ll come and seize ya.
Yeah, that’s part of me plan.
Yer know I’m no coward
I’m just like John Howard.
I’m Abbott, the Popeye man!

If admirals want to risk
Feeling the strength of my fisk,
It's boff an' it's wham understand?
All of their scrutiny
I’ll treat as mutiny
When I run Downunderland.

I think I'd keep the mutiny and scrutiny, but you need a whiplash ending, a kicker kick iyswim, and that might take a bit longer! But you have to find the tools, the words and constructs and nuances and everything to suit yourself, to make it fully worthy of old Popeye, ( gee I once parodised English country Garden, I bled inside I tell you! Smile )

That'll be enough of that.

Gee Sunday manana.

Patricia nil desperandum on the political front neither. Sportsbet has shortened their odds from 7's to6's  . . . Coulda been my stake what done it though!

We have one year to form a truly united front against Abbortt and against anyone or indeed anything that might take his place. We will do it because we must, and we will.

TalkTurkey

Comments are closed