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The Punishment That Fits No Crime

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Monday, 22 October 2012 13:23 by Marian Dalton
Things are looking up for the government. The first study on the effect of carbon pricing indicates a related fall in carbon emissions, without the stupendous price hikes predicted by the Opposition. Australia comfortably won the vote to gain a temporary seat on the United Nations Security Council, despite Opposition pessimism, doubt, and what looked suspiciously like sour grapes. Prime Minister Gillard’s numbers are up, and the government has even started to fight back in two-party preferred polls.

Yes, things are pretty rosy – and you know what happens next, don’t you?

The Opposition shift the ground. There’s always another issue on which they can fall back. This time, it’s asylum seekers – again. Specifically, the Coalition decided to take aim at the government’s part-adoption of the Pacific Solution, detaining asylum seekers on Nauru and Manus Island.

The Greens don’t want anyone on Nauru (or in mandatory detention at all, for that matter) – but are low on specifics as to how to implement their preferred ‘regional approach’. The government won’t tell us exactly how their ‘no advantage’ system is supposed to work – that is, how long asylum seekers on average would have to wait to be processed and granted refugee status. We’ve got some vague statements about making sure that those who come on boats don’t manage to get ahead of people ‘in the queue’ in refugee camps – never mind that the ‘queue’ simply doesn’t exist – but no numbers whatsoever.

Surprisingly, the one party who are giving us details is the Coalition. And those numbers are, frankly, horrifying.

Opposition Immigration spokesperson Scott Morrison announced that, under a Coalition government, asylum seekers should expect to be detained on Nauru for a minimum of five years. In what looked remarkably like a game of ‘Dare-You-Double-Dare-You’, he suggested the government adopt the same position, while Immigration Minister Chris Bowen countered by urging the Coalition to get on board the Malaysia solution. As usual, neither side wants to give an inch.

But let’s look at the Coalition’s proposal a bit more closely. Five years minimum mandatory detention. By anyone’s standards, that’s a long time to be stuck on an island with no idea whether you will eventually receive some certainty for your future. Add to that the fact that these are effectively stateless people, confined to sub-standard camps with poor facilities in a landscape devastated by phosphate mining, and sweltering in temperatures of over 30 degrees Celsius with very high humidity. Then take into account the fact that they can’t leave. They can’t decide to go for a walk, see a movie, have a picnic, or go shopping for a treat.

Looks a lot like a prison, doesn’t it? Of course, prisoners have an allowance, which they are allowed to spend. Asylum seekers simply cannot receive any form of financial assistance until they are out of detention – when they can apply for help from the Asylum Seeker Assistance Scheme. Generally, too, it’s a fairly straightforward process to visit a prisoner – one doesn’t need to find money for an international flight and visa, have a current passport, and jump through the bureaucratic hoops needed to gain permission to enter the detention centre.

While we’re on the subject of comparing prisons and asylum seeker detention centres, let’s look at that number again – at least five years. How does that stack up to sentences given to convicted prisoners?

According to a 2011 report prepared by the Sentencing Council of Victoria, of 228 people who received a custodial sentence for the crime of rape, over 80% were sentenced to less than six years. Half of those were eligible for parole in under four years.

Less than four years. Those who commit rape, a crime which our society regards as one of the worst outrages that can be inflicted on a human being, are imprisoned for roughly the same time it takes to complete a university degree – or hold two Federal elections. Under the Coalition’s plan, asylum seekers would be detained for at least a year longer.

Why such a long detention period? What have asylum seekers done, to warrant such strict conditions?

The short answer is: NOTHING.

Seeking asylum is not illegal. Despite the oft-repeated assertions of Morrison and his Opposition Leader, Tony Abbott, people are absolutely entitled to seek asylum in Australia – and we have an obligation to process them, if not re-settle them in our country. We are, after all, signatories to Refugee Conventions. By referring to them as illegal, however, the Coalition plants the idea that something shifty is going on here.

It goes further. The Coalition suggests such people may not be ‘real’ refugees. Often they arrive without identification – what have they got to hide? They pay huge amounts (around US$4000) to people smugglers – why are they trying to get ahead of all those (real) refugees waiting patiently in camps around the world? If they’ve got money, why don’t they just leave normally? Any attempt to bring even a little factual evidence – or even logic – into the discussion is met with blustering rhetoric and accusations of being ‘soft on border protection’.

And make no mistake – Abbott knows exactly what he is doing. He knows that the official term used for boat-borne asylum seekers is ‘Irregular Maritime Arrivals’. He knows they’re not doing anything wrong by trying to get here. He knows that detaining people for long periods on remote islands, preferably ones that are not even part of Australia, tends to fade from the headlines if there are no faces to go with the protestations of the Asylum Seeker Resource Centre. If he plays the waiting game long enough, there will only be a few voices speaking up against a xenophobic attitude that he has done nothing to counter, and everything to encourage.

It’s really no surprise, then, that the Coalition should be now insisting on what can only be called an entirely punitive sentence for people who have committed no crime, circumvented no process, and are simply trying to save themselves and their families. It’s business as usual – demonise the victims, while claiming to ‘protect’ them from evil people smugglers and risky boat voyages.

Oh, and that five years? Is the low end of what the Coalition thinks is appropriate for mandatory detention. Morrison gave no figures for the maximum time an asylum seeker could be detained. Given that even twelve months’ detention on Nauru under the Pacific Solution resulted in adverse mental health outcomes that afflict refugees to this day, the prospect of five, six, or even more years smacks of outright, deliberate cruelty.

Lest we let the government off scot-free, however, it’s worth repeating: the Coalition have given us a minimum number. The government have given us nothing. We have no idea how long the government would be happy to keep someone in detention, other than some vague mutterings about being equivalent to the ‘average’ time taken to process someone in a camp in our region. As the UNHCR pointed out, though, it’s impossible to even establish an average time. It’s a meaningless concept – and since there is evidence of people in camps waiting for ten years or more, that ‘no advantage’ test starts to take on truly horrifying possibilities. The government seems to think that if one person suffers terrible hardship and interminable delays in having their refugee claim processed, then it’s acceptable for others to undergo the same ordeal. So sorry, but you understand how it is – we have to be fair, after all.

It’s not ‘fair’. It’s coldly, calculatedly inhumane. Whether it’s the government’s ‘we’re-not-telling’ or Morrison’s ‘five-years-and-counting’ solution, the treatment of asylum seekers has gone way past a race to the bottom. The major parties know that this issue can be manipulated in an election campaign, and are only too eager to play to the xenophobic strain that seems to run right through Australian society (with the help of certain areas of the media) if it will gain them votes.

Now, maybe I’m doing Prime Minister Gillard and Abbott a disservice. Maybe they do care about the welfare of asylum seekers, and the way they deal with them is sacrificing personal feelings for the long-term gain of the ‘top job’.

That only makes it worse. Whichever way the next election goes, asylum seekers lose. They will be packed off, out of sight, to Nauru (or Manus Island, or Malaysia), and treated like prisoners of war who have no idea who is winning, or if it will ever end. Sadly, this is the best outcome – because even if the boats don’t stop coming, and the current strategy proves to be an utter failure, neither party is likely to retreat from a hard-line stance. They’d lose far too much face, and give their opposition a great deal of ammunition. The alternative is to become even more punitive, more harsh – and given the appalling state of affairs that exists now, that possibility is terrible. Human lives would become less than pawns.

And we would all be culpable.

The Political Sword welcomes a new author, Marian Dalton, who is, in no particular order, an editor, blogger, reader, writer, poet, mother, graduate student and sometime academic. She currently works as a freelance editor, citizen journalist and media advisor. Clients have included national political parties, lobby groups and community associations. Her blog, The Conscience Vote, provides accessible analysis of Australian political and social issues and aims to engage all people in public debate.

Comments (181) -

October 22. 2012 01:47 PM

nasking



From America:

Gap between men and women in polling reaches near historic high

http://mobile.rawstory.com/therawstory/#!/entry/gap-between-men-and-women-in-polling-reaches-near-historic,5084a7e7d7fc7b5670279b19


Getting better here in Australia.

I guess there are alot of men in America who have been fooled by Limbaugh and Fox News into believing Romney will look after their interests rather than looking after Fox News and Limbaugh's interests.

And all of their masters.

You stop listening to the little woman and respecting her views...it's not surprising you get a slowed economy due to Tea Party flakes and Libertarian hypocrites.

You also risk massive austerity measures...

but wouldn't that suit the rich collectors of small business...

those who don't want to pay out pensions...

but rather see yer you men working cheap 24-7...

and yer kids fighting in their corporate profiteering FOREVER WAR.

Frankly, i'd listen to the little woman with the big ideas.

Especially the one who determines what happens to her body.

And makes her own life choices without being bossed around by religious overseers.

And is determined to vote HER WAY...not her BOSSES Romney told me to tell you how to vote way.

N'

nasking

October 22. 2012 01:53 PM

nasking



While we’re on the subject of comparing prisons and asylum seeker detention centres, let’s look at that number again – at least five years. How does that stack up to sentences given to convicted prisoners?

According to a 2011 report prepared by the Sentencing Council of Victoria, of 228 people who received a custodial sentence for the crime of rape, over 80% were sentenced to less than six years. Half of those were eligible for parole in under four years.

Less than four years. Those who commit rape, a crime which our society regards as one of the worst outrages that can be inflicted on a human being, are imprisoned for roughly the same time it takes to complete a university degree – or hold two Federal elections. Under the Coalition’s plan, asylum seekers would be detained for at least a year longer.

Why such a long detention period? What have asylum seekers done, to warrant such strict conditions?

The short answer is: NOTHING.


Marian,
what an EXCELLENT POST.

You got me thinking.

Treating refugees who are fleeing persecution as bad or worse than bona-fide crims.

Not on.

SHAME

N'

nasking

October 22. 2012 01:55 PM

Ad astra reply

Marian
Welcome to the growing set of authors on The Political Sword.  

Your piece addresses a vexed topic, one about which there are a wide variety of opinions.

Thank you for dissecting the issues so clearly.

Politically, with the Opposition taking its very hardline approach, which appeals to a section of the electorate whose votes both sides want and need, the Government is also sucked into that vortex.  Yet one gets the feeling that a more humanitarian approach is what the Government would prefer.  

It is a political dilemma for whoever is in power, and the Coalition in Opposition exploits it for all the political advantage they can wring out of it.  Scott Morrison’s recent threat of what sounds like a minimum 5 year jail sentence, without trial, for arriving on a boat, is the Coalition’s most recent attempt to squeeze out a little more political advantage, and inflict more pain on the Government, unconcerned as the Coalition is that the real pain is suffered by those detained on Nauru or Manus Island.

Ad astra reply

October 22. 2012 02:00 PM

Ad astra reply

Folks
I'll be out for a couple of hours shopping.

Ad astra reply

October 22. 2012 02:27 PM

LadyInRed

Marian this was a well thought out article. Clearly neither side looks good in this race to the bottom. Perhaps the Libs have hit bottom by giving a definite period of 5 years, and Labor being careful not to go outside the law and give a definite period. 5 years is a sentence for a crime where no crime was committed way more than just a deterent, and uncalled for. Malaysia looks better than this solution by far, if we must have a solution. My heart and head are in a quandry over this.

On a different note: Hi again everyone. Just got back from Hong Kong and South Korea. What a fabulous country South Korea is. So progressive, tech savvy, high speed rail, 10 lane highways, wonderful people, terrific food and service and so clean. Superior recycling system, everyone recycles everything, and carbon pricing in 2015. Anyone who says Asia is the problem needs to spend some time in an Asian country and get the facts. I was in Hong Kong 30 years ago and wow what a difference Chinese rule has made. When I was last there they still had people living in junks on the harbour, though I do think some of the charm has gone you can't fault that the Chinese want to lift their country up. Seoul and Hong Kong Airports make our Airports look pathetic (Brisbane International Airport pick up your sox, its dirty, smelly and inefficient).

LadyInRed

October 22. 2012 02:48 PM

LadyInRed

Newman now setting the bar so low that the reef which we should be cherrishing and protecting for the world has been given the greatest blow by this man of no principles or morals.

Wow what a lot that happened while I was away. I was cheering so loud when the PM made her speech.  Her speech was an outstanding display of controlled passion, backed up with facts, articulate and quite simply brilliant. So proud to be Australian and a woman and a Labor supporter. She did so well in India and a seat on the National Security Council....how wonerdful and what an achievement. I see the poo pooers are out in force. What is it with this nation? It beggars belief the depths that the MSM will go to try to bring down this government, and the willingness of the mainstream public to believe all they read? Still it does look like despite the MSM Labor is finally getting some traction.

LadyInRed

October 22. 2012 03:00 PM

Megpie71

The big problem for Irregular Maritime Arrivals isn't that they're arriving by boat rather than by plane.  It's that they're going about the whole "arriving by boat" in the wrong way.  After all, we know what works in this country.

Arrive by boat, bringing with you a military force sufficient to cow the natives.  Equip yourself with technology superior to their weapons, land in a suitable location, plant a flag and raise a base.  Declare the entire damn continent to be a colony of your homeland.  If the natives disagree, kill them.  Declare any indigenous population to be effectively "livestock", designate them as Not Real Human Beings, and put a bounty on their heads.  

We know this works.  

When it's done by white Europeans, it's called "colonisation", and let's face it, most of the refuge-seeking peoples in the world are basically fleeing the after-effects of it.  

We're all beneficiaries of it.  

As a nation, we really need to remove the beam in our own collective eye regarding our national origins before we start taking asylum seekers to task over the mote in theirs.

Megpie71

October 22. 2012 03:42 PM

LadyInRed

Interesting take Megpie71.

I think what is driving this policy is the fear and ignorance in the community, the two together are a bad combination. Have you ever tried to talk to someone who thinks these people are bad and to be despised for seeking a better life? I have....not good.

I would like to know more about what happens to assylum seekers when they reach Christmas Island? Can anyone tell me how they get processed? How do we determine they are genuine refugees? Why does this process take so long. Why woud 5 years on Naru be a deterent if you are fleeing real persecution? To be honest if I was in a life or death situation 5 years on Naru would not deter me? Death or Naru......a no brainer as far as I am concerned.

Of course once in detention the cost of years in spent detention on a person's psych is unimagineable especially when you have done nothing wrong. Its probably not something that you calculate when making your decision to flee. I would hate to be Chris Bowen.

LadyInRed

October 22. 2012 04:01 PM

Michael

All the reporting of the 52/48% split between Coalition and Labor Two Party Preferred in today's Neilsen poll fails to also examine this far more important point (isn't it?).

"When those polled nominated how they would direct their preferences, rather than allocate them in line with how they fell at the last election, the two-party-preferred gap closed to 49 per cent to 51 per cent."

www.brisbanetimes.com.au/.../...0121021-27zks.html

When asked, people are saying they would vote differently from last time.

In other words, the trend towards Labor is even more manifest when calculated not mathematically on what people DID last time they voted, but what they say they would DO if they voted right now.

What's in peoples' hearts and minds is surely more pertinent than what's in a database's automatic correlation of now and then?

Michael

October 22. 2012 04:02 PM

nasking



EXCELLENT VID...SHARE

Cuts Hurt Campaign
, 2,055 views

The Cuts Hurt campaign is about protecting public sector jobs and services and demonstrating the value of the services Community and Public Sector Union members deliver to the Australian community. Find out more at http://cutshurt.com.au



m.youtube.com/.../watch?v=f0t3T60A61A

N'

nasking

October 22. 2012 04:12 PM

nasking



Went on to SLY NEWS to see what the MYEFO cuts etc are...what do I get?

BUDGET RESPONSE

BUDGET SURPLUS HIT

How much info on the budget speech?

STUFF ALL.

I don't reckon Abbott and Hockey's response should dominate the Multiview TOP STORIES.

bloody Murdoch...BIASED ALL THE WAY.

Just like the SKY UK...working overtime to try and damage the BBC.

N'

nasking

October 22. 2012 04:15 PM

nasking



Megpie71,

good points.

Worth thinking about.

LADYINRED,

Bring on the NBN and faster & more public transport eh?

N'

nasking

October 22. 2012 04:22 PM

paul walter

All this a week after being shown up so badly by Yudhoyono?
As have said before, the coalition is totally negative; a nasty little local T-Party.

paul walter

October 22. 2012 04:27 PM

nasking



Govt getting hard on welfare...Howard's welfare state.

Greens not happy with Swan/Wong's budget cuts.

This ALP-led govt fixing dopey Howard/Coalition welfare state.

Will help cut interest rates if scheming banks who come across as Liberal supporters give THE MANY the cuts necessary.

Looks like Hockey's been given the nod from some...big smiles on his face...Abbott looked like the kid who had his lunch stolen.

Abbott turned in desperation to mother figure Michelle Grattan...she fed him...but also sounded disappointed.

I reckon Tony might get a rotten lemon in his Christmas stocking hung up in early December this year.

Or maybe a death mask and coffin toy for Halloween?

The downward spiral:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maelstrom-Clarke.jpg

N'

nasking

October 22. 2012 04:48 PM

nasking



Remember to PROMOTE the SMALL BUSINESSES you RESPECT and think are RELIABLE...offering QUALITY GOODS.

They DESERVE YER SUPPORT.

Coming up to Christmas...and Halloween...

A few we buy from:

http://www.biome.com.au/

http://www.rockinghorse.net/

http://www.redeye.com.au/iAsk.asp?reion=USA

http://www.csiroshop.com/

http://spiralfoods.com.au/our-story

http://www.kimberleycoffee.com.au/

http://www.organicfoods.com.au/

http://www.healthfoodexpress.com.au/

http://www.britishsweets.com.au/index.php

http://www.maggiet.com.au/

https://www.worldforpets.com.au/

http://shop.savethechildren.org.au/

Happy shopping online.

BTW, I receive no money to promote these...nor will except any.
I believe in helping small business.

I grew up in a small business home...my Dad's.

N'

nasking

October 22. 2012 05:05 PM

nasking




ALP (50.5%) LEADS L-NP (49.5%) – FIRST TIME SINCE JANUARY 2012

http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2012/4834/

I luv this comment from Keith Warren @ Facebook:


We're comin' ta git ya Scabbott!
You grubby little fear monger.


Laughing

Indeed.

N'

nasking

October 22. 2012 05:12 PM

LadyInRed

Nasking too right I forgot about the internet speed over there - fantastic speed...now I know what it will be like....oooh if I don't get it because of TAbbott I'm moving to Asia. I can't believe that Turnbull and TAbbott have the gaul to argue that we don't need it. We have to have it or risk being left behind in every way. I can't believe people who say that Labor has no vision....NBN is vision for the future and a MUST HAVE.

I was on the KTX going 300K an hour using the free wi-fi connection. If you want to experience the future go to South Korea.

I'm just going to check Sly News Nasking....what a good name for it.

LadyInRed

October 22. 2012 05:25 PM

nasking



Goodbye backwards Abbott and Howard...and yer media lazy mates.

High speed internet that can deliver high quality video on demand is fast becoming the norm in developed countries.

According to a report commissioned by Britain's Office of Communications, “smart” or “connected” television sets - with broadband connections capable of streaming on-demand video - will be in over half the nation's homes within a decade.

In Australia, smart TVs will roll out as quickly as the NBN. That looks unlikely to be at breakneck speed but it should be within a decade, too.

The much talked about “digital convergence” is about to become a reality, making the business models of free-to-air TV much less predictable and perhaps destroying them altogether.

Viewers will soon be able to access information and entertainment in any form on any device they wish.
Just as you can now read a newspaper on your computer, soon people will be streaming video content to their TV, from a diverse variety of providers, not just conventional stations.

Today's technologies and interfaces are still fiddly, but they will improve. And they are already being increasingly integrated with social media, particularly Facebook and Twitter.

The reason this is a big deal is that once streaming on demand is ubiquitous, free-to-air TV's last bastion of profitability will be the lazy viewer.

The rest of us will have our social networks suggesting what we should watch, from a far wider range of sources.

The newspaper business model was upended when readers could go online and cherry pick stories from media organisations and bloggers the world over. The same is about to happen to television.

Most of us can't be bothered searching for a new program to watch. We just crash in front of the telly and take what's served up. If we don't like it, we switch channels.

The TV networks have a captive audience, but they are about to lose it.

The internet can do a much better job of satisfying our cravings, for very little effort...

Once your television starts telling you what's popular amongst friends and other like-minded people, it's goodbye to sloth profits for the free-to-air television networks.

How long will it take?

The wave of destructive change takes longer to build than most pundits expect, but the demolition itself is surprisingly quick.

The technology is ready. We're ready. All we're waiting for is faster internet speeds. And that's about to arrive.

Video may not have killed the radio star. But the NBN is about to kill the television station.


www.smh.com.au/.../...networks-20121022-280vn.html

The NORMANDY INVASION CONTINUES...

Laughing

N'

nasking

October 22. 2012 05:29 PM

nasking



LadyInRed,
well said.

What sooo many are thinking.

N'

nasking

October 22. 2012 05:33 PM

Michael

It is hard to believe that Abbott is still so stupid and stubborn (no it isn't, what am I saying???) that he is still going on about demolishing the NBN as a budget shrinking measure when it is a nation-building necessity.

Michael

October 22. 2012 05:35 PM

Lyn

Hi Ad and Marian,

Marian thankyou very much for your most enjoyable, thoughtful  plus article.  A big welcome to you.  We are all very pleased you have joined us on TPS.

Lady in Red, great to have you home again.  Glad you had a nice time and enjoyed your trip.

Joe Hockey in his reply to the  MYEFO said,  “the books are cooked”, guess that is a way of covering up for not understanding or being able to answer any questions.

Here is a mini Twittychattyatti for you:-

Schtang‏
If a Federal election were held today the result would be too close to call according to Morgan Poll http://bit.ly/Trk8KF #auspol

michael w beattie‏
Hockeys exact words were don't go o.s. for a holiday or anything as this grubby govmnt will take your super PM Agenda

Labor hitting families to cook up surplus: Abbott, AFR Paywalled
Federal Opposition Leader Tony Abbott has accused Labor of “cooking the books” in its mid-year economic update, saying the government has no plan to boost productivity or deliver economic growth.
www.afr.com/.../labor_hitting_families_to_cook_up_EvXK04U3d0pGZNm4tuVSQI

Infographic | MYEFO at a glance, AFR
afr.com/.../infographic_myefo_at_glance_ikox2j9Uy6q5M42clzLY2J

Why NBN will kill the TV networks
“smart” or “connected” television sets - with broadband connections capable of streaming on-demand video - will be in over half the nation's homes within a decade.

In Australia, smart TVs will roll out as quickly as the NBN. That looks unlikely to be at breakneck speed but it should be within a decade, too

Just as you can now read a newspaper on your computer, soon people will be streaming video content to their TV, from a diverse variety of providers, not just conventional stations
www.theage.com.au/.../...works-20121022-280vn.html

Swan unveils $1.1b surplus, Phillip Coorey and Judith Ireland
www.brisbanetimes.com.au/.../...0121022-280c9.html

SmileSmileSmileSmile

Lyn

October 22. 2012 05:48 PM

jaycee

Thank you Marian. The sad reality for refugees at the moment is that they, like the govt' are trapped in a swirling vortex.
We live in a country that is at its' core; racist. That's the sad reality....ask the indigenous people. The current govt' ran itself ragged to multiple abuse from ALL sides when it tried to create a)onshore assesment..b)combined; on/offshore..c)regional solution and now d)offshore assesment.
The total number of refugees coming in were scaring the bejeesus out of a racist nation so that the hung parliament was seen as even more precarious than ever. How can one get policy through when one is continually confronted with mindless mantras in both the parliament and the media?
While I do not agree with all this labor/right-wing govt' does, I know it is a damm sight better than the LNP. for a host of reasons!
And the reality of the fate of refugees is, I am certain, not one that this govt' would deliberately choose at this point in time, but rather one that would do the least damage to all concerned..The fact that they have not named a set time limit on internment may be because by not giving a definate time, the refugees may be processed quietly and quicker and released within the nominated limit.
I am afraid, when the public clamour by far shouts down private sympathy...a position of Realpolitik becomes the reality......like it or not!

jaycee

October 22. 2012 06:11 PM

Ad astra reply

Hi Lyn
What an interesting set of Twittichattiyatti.  So the Morgan poll shows an even better result for Labor than Nielsen, and Essential today was 53/47.  While individual polls cannot be predictive, the trend in favour of Labor is clear.  Tony Abbott and Peta Credlin must be worried.

MYEFO seems to have gone down reasonably well; of course we have had the usual Abbott/Hockey rhetoric, so predictable!

What an interesting article it is that suggests that the NBN might cripple the TV networks.  Is that why there has been so much opposition to it?

Ad astra reply

October 22. 2012 06:28 PM

Marilyn

Here's the thing, Gillard has always wanted this vile and evil policy, she loved it when Ruddock did it but was howled down by the ALP.

She is lazy ignorant racist who does not understand that the refugee convention is legally binding on us, it is not a right to be resettled after gaining acceptance in other nations and everyone has the right to seek asylum without being punished for doing so.

There is no offence in arriving here without a visa, no-one has ever been charged with such a thing and never will be.

Gillard did this disgusting expensive thing because SHE FUCKING WELL HATES REFUGEES.

Marilyn

October 22. 2012 06:38 PM

2353

Marilyn - change the record willya?

Marian - a well written and argued post.  Of course there are problems with Australia's refugee policy and it is neither fair or equitable as it stands.  The shame is that your well considered writing is hijacked by the poster above this one who by her language and demeanour, reduces the impact of your writing.

Welcome to TPS - I hope your stay is long and pleasant.

2353

October 22. 2012 06:45 PM

nasking


Mr NO NO NO Abbott has created a BLACK HOLE disaster for the Coalition.

Biggest idiot the Coalition have ever had lead them...and that's saying something.


From Lenore Taylor:

But the Coalition's case would be a lot stronger had it not opposed many of Labor's recent savings measures that have big structural impacts on the budget in the longer term,

such as the means-testing of the private health insurance rebate, which the Coalition opposed,

or the freezing of the income threshold for family tax benefits,

or the means-testing of the baby bonus - both of which the Coalition initially fought against but in the end supported.

The new cuts to the private health insurance rebate and the baby bonus have similar escalating impacts in the longer term.

And the Coalition's position would be stronger still if we were going to find out its longer-term fiscal projections before the next election, rather than having to wait for commission of audit that would not be constituted until after it was elected.


www.smh.com.au/.../...n-a-bind-20121022-280kf.html

Big screw up by Tony...the NEGAbore.

N'

nasking

October 22. 2012 06:54 PM

nasking



Okay, I'm outa here...making Stacey tonite Greek seasoned vege kebabs including cherry toms, squash, mushrooms, zuchinni, capsicum, pineapple, pak choy, celery, snow peas...sauce made with greek seasoning herb powder, chilli seeds, lemon juice, bit of organic olive oil...and garlic...put in flat bread with tahini...or hommus...and hot sauce. Or put on bed of rice.

Have a good night all.

Later on here:

www.facebook.com/nick.king.1232760?ref=tn_tnmn

N'

nasking

October 22. 2012 07:02 PM

jaycee

Marilyn....I read you equally mindlesss rant over on The Drum. I say ; "mindless" because, really, that is what it is...you do your (obvious) education little justice to carp and abuse, rather than debate..as I am sure there are those here who have friends of friends...and while we ALL would be only too happy to see "the lion lay down with the lamb"...it aint gonna happen..not in this world nor the next and while slinging sh*t at the PM. and the govt' in each and every post may get you the Menzies Medal (the equivalent in this country to the Lenin Medal in another!), it will not forward your real concerns one millimetre.
I don't think I would be giving any secrets away when I say that most of us here are only too aware of the predicament the govt' is in vis a vis refugee policy and most of us here are on the edge of our seats (along with the govt') as to where it will all go next!
So give yourself and us a break, Marilyn..keep us well informed and we will up the ante where we can in a civilised manner. And, short of starting a revolution, surely that is all a private citizen can do.

jaycee

October 22. 2012 07:28 PM

Tom of Melbourne

It’s amazing the way Ad Astra looks to excuse the government of its duplicity on asylum seekers. He says -


•  the Government is also sucked into that vortex.  Yet one gets the feeling that a more humanitarian approach is what the Government would prefer.  

•  the Coalition in Opposition exploits it for all the political advantage they can wring out of it


But ignores the fact that Gillard started the race to the bottom with her 2004 announcement ”another boat, another policy failure”. Agruably it was this announcement that pushed the Howard governemtn into its morally bankrupt policies.

Then Rudd backed this up, with his “turn the boats back policy “ announced on the eve of the 2007 election.

It’s amazing that so many simply post fact free, feel good, pro ALP propaganda – without a shred of rationale.

Tom of Melbourne

October 22. 2012 07:33 PM

Patriciawa

Truth Seeker, I hope you are around today.   I’ve been a bit overwhelmed by the pace of things lately and falling behind with my reading and the comments I want to make.   I was very impressed by your poem on "The Media" way back on AA's post about mainstream media anger, but I put it aside as other things came up.   I was particularly impressed by the apparent ease of lines like these below,  wondering how long it took to get just the right pitch and rhythm as well as the exact words.

A whirl wind tour of misinformation, slogans and downright lies
That attracts our illustrious media like our garbage attracts flies

Then I lost it!   But perhaps that was a good thing because now I'm reading it again after this amazing weekend when we can see the old media, our one time MSM,  bewildered and perhaps beginning to understand they are really are out out of touch.  Do you think they have finally got the message from us in the fifth estate?   As you put it......

So the fifth estate said enough’s enough  and with minds of one accord
Tore down the media’s empires and put them to The Political Sword.


I see from your note that you had written this some months back.  Are you psychic, able to see into the future on your truth seeking missions?  I hope so.  I would dearly love to live long enough to see Rupert Murdoch and his evil empire entirely vanquished.

Patriciawa

October 22. 2012 07:58 PM

Jason

I see the skank and her suitor have nothing to offer other  than a re run of the same old tired posts that they put up day after long day!

Jason

October 22. 2012 08:13 PM

paul walter

Fair comment, Lady in Red, 3.42 pm.
They Labor) do really seem to feel they have to vector Abbott to the murky depths to survive, given fears the unscrupulousness of media/press and the inability of the some sections of the public to ponder the issue through more thoughtfully.
Many obviously feel some sort of floodgate is to be opened and no one seems willing or able to reassure them.
Since the most fearful come from Abbott's and Morrrison's heartland, I wish he or the other charcter would be the first to communicate whatever the true situation might be, if it is not floodgates.
They won't listen to Labor or the Greens, so it logically must come from the Opposition Leader,they are his flock, so to speak, so at last things could begin to move forward.

paul walter

October 22. 2012 08:27 PM

Marian

Thanks all, for your thoughtful comments - and thanks for having me here, Lyn and Ad Astra.

LadyinRed, I recommend reading David Marr's <i>Panic</i>, which spends a great deal of time examining the xenophobia that is embedded deep in Australian thinking, and how successive political groups have exploited it. The so-called 'race to the bottom' has been happening for over a century, starting with the push to keep Chinese migrants disenfranchised.

Paul, look for the Coalition to seek to bury this issue when Parliament next sits. Question Time will be all about the MYEFO results released today, and there is no way the government will ask itself a Dixer on asylum seekers. At best, we might see the Senate Greens calling out both parties, but until it becomes a useful political weapon again, the major parties will seek to have us forget it's even happening.

Marian

October 22. 2012 09:46 PM

paul walter

Eh,um, probity (clears throat). If there's a god, I think we will have some explaining to do.

paul walter

October 22. 2012 09:58 PM

LadyInRed

Thanks Marian just downloaded Panic onto my Kindle.....don't you just love technology that allows you to get information so easily. I love my Kindle.

LadyInRed

October 22. 2012 10:08 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Lady in Red - ” 
I was on the KTX going 300K an hour using the free wi-fi connection. If you want to experience the future go to South Korea.

That’s ice, but the sSOuth Korean NBN is 5 times faster, and costs only 4% as much per capita. That’s right!! Australia is 24 times as expensive to install broadband!

At over $2,500 for every man, woman and child it’s an expensive program.

Tom of Melbourne

October 22. 2012 10:19 PM

LadyInRed

All the harping in the world Marilyn wont change a thing. Abuse is abuse whether it be to assylum seekers or people who write on this blog or people who represent us in government. I suggest you reflect on how you present yourself before you spit venom at others. Your message is lost in the shameful way you present it.

ToM you have a point. Neither side looks good on this issue. Though I doubt very much that anything Gillard said in 2004 had any affect what-so-ever on Howards policy......absolutely none. It was always the media and the Australian peoples inability to show compassion and understanding that turned this into a political issue.....as Marian says OUR xenophobia has been driving these policies. The fault lies with the Australian people first and foremost in my opinion.

LadyInRed

October 22. 2012 10:23 PM

LadyInRed

Oh for goodness sake ToM you have to be the most irritating person. South Korea has 60 million people and is the size of Victoria! Do the Maths and please don;t insult my intelligence.

LadyInRed

October 22. 2012 10:23 PM

Marilyn

The process consists of an interview, an application form for an 866 visa for protection, another interview and then a yes or no.  Then people can appeal.

Now for some numbers from the March quarter of this year.

Using Afghans as an example.

73% accepted after the first process.

when sent to a review 89% were then accepted - that is of the 27 refused after primary entry 24 were accepted.

So far without seeing a court at all for every 100 Afghans 97 are accepted.

ON appeal for the last 3, 2 are accepted.

So to deny 1% of Afghans they jail 100% of them and some have been incarcerated now for over 2 years.

The process in the initial stages takes 18 hours work.

The person who told me to change the record should read the article, it's about the brutal treatment of refugees.

When a column is about refugees why would I be a cretin and talk about the NBN?

Marilyn

October 22. 2012 10:31 PM

LadyInRed

And all your harping on about the cost ToM hasn't changed the fact that if WE (yes US ToM) want to compete in this technologically advanced world, grow and prosper then we simply have to have fast broadband......ITS NOT AN OPTION! We simply have to have it - all of us ToM......those in the bush as well as the regional areas and the cities.....all of us and that has a cost associated with it. So stop poo pooing it.

LadyInRed

October 22. 2012 10:31 PM

Jason

ToM,
   So are jet fighters subs and all sorts of miitary hardware!
But I'm happy to pay for it!

Jason

October 22. 2012 10:35 PM

LadyInRed

Oh dear Marilyn you only have ONE topic and you bring into every article that has ever been posted on this site. You couldn't help yourself could you? You had to call me a cretin.

Thank you for the stats. I wont be responding to any more of your posts.

LadyInRed

October 22. 2012 11:05 PM

Truth Seeker

Marian, welcome to TPS and thank you for your thought provoking article, it's greta to see more good writers joining the fold.

Patricia, thank you so much for your kind words.
I have only just got back to the computer, as I had students this afternoon.

I think it all comes down to my years as a singer /songwriter and my understanding that in music timing is everything. (probably a bit fanatical about timing)

As far as putting the lines together, what I do is try to match the number of syllables, and that might mean thinking outside the box when putting them together.
for example thinking of different ways to say the same sentence/line.
Sometimes reversing two words in a line changes the rhythm and flow of syllables, without changing the context, and in some cases it can actually improve the context. (quite often by pure accident)
As another example, in the first line that you noted, the word that made it work was "downright" which I added when I realised that I was a couple of syllables short in the original line Smile

I tend to treat poetry as the ultimate mind exercise, building it upon a framework of timing.  You may have noticed that I separate parts of lines by .....  I do this (firstly, for my benefit) to help separate and emphasise certain syllables as I am reading the lines back.  The number of dots helps to identify groups of words and the length of the gaps, to maintain the natural cadence.

Sorry to take a seemingly clinical approach to a wonderfully creative endeavour, and in practice it is not something that I consciously do, but rather.... "the timing made me do it".

My inspiration for "The Media" were the numerous doorstop Pressers that I have seen the LNP do, combined with the frustration of them never answering a decent question (on the rare occasions that they  actually get asked one) and my looney left imagination that draws written caricatures in my head. (if you get my drift)

I agree entirely with your statement  "I would dearly love to live long enough to see Rupert Murdoch and his evil empire entirely vanquished."

Sadly i have no discernible psychic ability, but rather an observant nature and a pathetically predictable MSM and a policy vacuous and totally dishonest opposition to draw inspiration from.   Smile   Smile

I too have found the pace of of things a bit overwhelming of late and have not had the time to catch up on all the reading material, which often means missing posts that I would normally read and enjoy.

I hope I have Answered your queries, although as I have previously stated IMHO your poetry stands tall against any.

Keep up the great work!

Cheers  Smile

Truth Seeker

October 22. 2012 11:25 PM

paul walter

Thrills and spills on QA tonight: Morrison lost the plot re sneaky meetings with the Indonesians- Jones nailed him- and Garrett sounded like Jim Hacker.
It isn't going to sort itself quickly and it's not surprising because different aspects are too close to the bone for too many conflicting reasons, for too many different people.

paul walter

October 22. 2012 11:40 PM

Truth Seeker

BTW, on how long it takes to write a line, some positively fall out in a matter of minutes, and others are agonised over.
I sometimes write the second line of a rhyme first, and then come up with a first line to make it work.

I am a bit brain dead tonight, so sorry if I am rambling.

Cheers

Truth Seeker

October 22. 2012 11:45 PM

paul walter

A red-letter moment!
Truth Seeker, had you been watching QA tonight you would have learned how to sing "Onward Christian Soldiers", to the tune of  "Land of Hope and Glory".

paul walter

October 23. 2012 12:04 AM

Truth Seeker

Paul, I did actually see parts of QandA, in between replying to Patricia,  but am not a fan of solo electric guitars with lots of distortion, prefer the acoustic sounds, although I do play and teach some acoustic Hendrix, as well as many other styles.

I don't know what he was playing, as I lost interest after the first 8 bars, but I have come across that combination of song and tune before.

Cheers  Smile   Smile

  

Truth Seeker

October 23. 2012 12:23 AM

Libbyx33

Fellow Swordsters,

I've beem away for a few days, and people everywhere have been writing. Love it!

I'm writing here so there's proof/a record that you heard it here first - Joe Hockey DIED on Lateline tonight!

He was bumbling, unsure, UNCOSTED lol Smile

Joe Hockey, "You are the weakest link. Goodbye."

Libbyx33

October 23. 2012 12:25 AM

Libbyx33

Sorry, I would correct that fat-fingered mistake but I don't know how.

Libbyx33

October 23. 2012 02:29 AM

Patriciawa

Libby!  You got me really excited there!   Joe Hockey dying! On camera!   WOW!  He is one of my least favorite pollies......

I loathe Joe Hockey!
He’s not just fat
And not just sloppy.
He’s a nasty rat
Who gets me stroppy.

I explain why in more detail @  polliepomes.wordpress.com/.../

Truth Seeker, thanks for that.   Interesting to know you are a singer/song writer.  That explains the ease of your rhythm.

Billy Bragg talked on Q&A about the powerful combination of music and protest and then at the end sang "Ideologies" which he has performed hundreds of times.   I just had another look at the lyrics - not a patch on your "Media" - but I guess his words, a guitar and his voice would be a powerful combination.

Patriciawa

October 23. 2012 04:43 AM

Marilyn

This is a column specifically about our depraved treatment of refugees.

Did anyone read it or just rant out any old rubbish they could think of.

I ask you again, if a column is about refugees why would I talk about the NBN or the budget?

Marilyn

October 23. 2012 07:49 AM

Lyn

TODAY’S LINKS

Contesting the News Mr Denmore, The Failed Estate
Indeed, such is The Australian's propensity for mixing partisanship with 'news' that some commentators, like economist John Quiggin, question whether it can fairly described as a newspaper. In fact, as blogs more and more resemble professionally written traditional media, the old media looks more and more like blogs.
thefailedestate.blogspot.com.au/.../...g-news.html

The echo chamber: journalists interviewing other journalists, David Donovan, Independent Australia
but you would think that people in the media would be somewhat interested in the views of their own audience, and look at it as a way to better understand the society, or to find compelling stories from outside the mainstream ― it does happen. But the “Insiders” I’ve perused don’t show any evidence of interest in even doing that ― the views and news of the ordinary folk seem to be of no concern to them at all.
www.independentaustralia.net/.../

Labor’s obsession with surplus prompts a genuine mini-budget, Bernard Keane, Crikey
The government’s Mid-Year Economic and Fiscal Outlook was released this morning and, despite a further round of savings and tax increases totalling over $16 billion over four years, the government has had to shave its surplus for this year to a mere $1.1 billion and reduced its forecast surpluses over the forward estimates to cope with a further downgrade in tax revenue.
www.crikey.com.au/.../?utm_source=r

Leadership and the power of passionate persuasion, Robert Simms, The Drum
Gillard finally stopped playing it safe. Her speech on sexism was compelling and persuasive - sending shivers down the spines of her detractors and goosebumps up the arms of her supporters. It is precisely this kind of passion that Gillard must evoke if she is to succeed where her predecessor failed.
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4326992.html

How to stop the media reporting science fiction as fact, Jon Borwein, The Conversation
With the media’s important gate-keeper role comes an equally important responsibility to perform the “due diligence” required. Otherwise, the public’s confidence in the scientific world will be further eroded, and scientists themselves will be unable to fully understand what is being done outside their own specialities
theconversation.edu.au/how-to-stop-the-media-reporting-science-fiction-as-fact-10252

Billions of cuts with Labor values - MYEFO at 11.00 am, Peter Martin
The mid-year budget update is being brought forward from November in order to get eight full months of revenue this financial year from the measures that will apply from November 1 and to present the Reserve Bank board with a picture of fiscal discipline when it meets to consider a second successive rate cut on Melbourne Cup Day November 2.
http://www.petermartin.com.au/

Swan tightens the screws, Stephen Koukoulas, Business Spectator
Today’s Mid Year Economic and Fiscal Outlook shows how fiscal policy has been an important shock absorber for the economy over the most recent business cycle. In other words, the government is delivering classic counter-cyclical fiscal policy settings.
www.businessspectator.com.au/.../MYEFO-government-triple-A-GDP-pd20121022-ZB2RM

Business cons the states out of tax revenue, Ross Gittins
have a fair bit of sympathy for the states. They have primary responsibility for the big-ticket spending areas of education, hospitals, law and order, roads and transport, and much else, but their revenue-raising power is limited, having been progressively whittled away by the High Court.
www.rossgittins.com/.../...out-of-tax-revenue.html

Mid-year Economic and Fiscal Outlook 2012‑13
budget.gov.au/2012-13/content/myefo/html/index.htm

Time to rethink unions ALP connection, Trevor Cook
Structure is destiny. Organisational structure is often overlooked in discussions about the future of the ALP. Yet, structure heavily influences candidate selection and therefore parliamentary leadership. In an increasingly presidential style electoral system, how caucus is chosen, and its composition, could scarcely be more important.
http://trevorcook.typepad.com/weblog/

Julia Gillard poll bounce following misogyny speech, Alison Rourke, The Guardian UK
That's a big jump," said John Stirton, director of polling at Nielsen, which carried out the survey. "When politicians get a boost, five or six points is usually as much as it ever is."The poll showed 45% of women polled think Abbott is sexist, compared with 38% of men, averaging out to 42% of the population.
www.guardian.co.uk/.../julia-gillard-poll-misogyny-speech

Today’s Front Pages
Australia Newspaper Front Pages for 23 October 2012
www.frontpagestoday.co.uk/index.cfm

Lyn

October 23. 2012 08:20 AM

Ad astra reply

LYN'S DAILY LINKS updated: www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...-DAILY-LINKS.aspx

Ad astra reply

October 23. 2012 08:59 AM

paul walter

Marilyn: "a column devoted to our...depraved treatment of refugees".
Scott Morrison didn't seem to think our treatment of asylum seekers was depraved. Seemed to think we were doing them a favour.
Can you elaborate further on your comment?

paul walter

October 23. 2012 09:07 AM

Michael

Joe Hockey didn't actually die on Lateline last night, but he sure seemed to be looking for a plot to dig a hole deep enough to bury himself in.

Try this for Hockey shovelling it:

JOE HOCKEY: Well, big businesses will also be better off because they will not need to have their own paid parental leave scheme. But the biggest winners out of our scheme will be small business people. And coming from a family of small business people, I can tell you one of the great challenges was big business was able to pay paid parental leave; small business could never afford it.

Under our scheme, small business will have their paid parental leave costs covered by the Government and that money will come out of larger businesses."

Big businesses will no longer have to provide/offer childcare as part of their employment packages when seeking and retaining staff, Joe tells us. OK, that lets big companies off the hook, they can leave all that to the government. Sound a bit, I don't know, 'socialist' to you?

And speaking of "socialist", doesn't setting up a system where big companies have to pay, through a government maintained conduit, for a cost of small companies, sound a whole lot like 'wealth redistribution', possibly even 'class (of business) warfare'?

The Coalition are tied up in knots, confusing Arthur and Martha, undoing decades of positive private enterprise advances in the treatment of female employees, and setting up an unnecessary extra layer of financial churning, all because Tony Abbott had a 'bright' idea about how to use parental leave to gazump Labor.

As Joe also said last night, "But, no, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on..."

Michael

October 23. 2012 09:10 AM

paul walter

Re Lyn's links, The comment about Gillard rediscovering "passion" struck me as instructive, there has to be something TO life.
Even Obama looks flat at the mo, for lack of the inspiring  "vision"thing and however you spin it, there is not a lot that rallies the inner person in watching Hockey and Swann stodge through quarterly abstract percentiles of fractiles on SBS 9.30 news.
As Joe Cocker sings in "You can leave Your Hat On", ".. give me a reason to live".

paul walter

October 23. 2012 09:14 AM

2353

Jason @ 10:31 - Commetn of the month.  Well done Sir Laughing

Marilyn @ 4:43 - You're right, this thread is about refugee policy, however nothing has stopped you attempting to put your laboured point across on ohter threads here and everywhere else.  Do unto others . . .

The economists seem to like the "early" mid year review.  When the GFC hit, Swan acted counter-cyclically and spent money and was lauded for it.  Now the world's economony is returning to more normal footing, Swan is tightening the wallet (and taking some of Howard's middle class welfare at the same time).  Warren Buffett works the same way and he's not a billionaire for nothing.

And before the tirade starts, the Australian Government Debt is currently 3% of GDP (according to the Koukoulas article linked to above by the always wonderful Lyn).  It's a similar position to a person who earns $50,000 per annum having to pay off a total debt of $1,500.

2353

October 23. 2012 09:43 AM

Lyn

Good Morning Ad and Everybody,


You will see Abbott has put his foot in it again, but his grin says he knows exactly what he is saying & doesn’t care.  

Twitterverse for you all:-

Gwill‏
Pretty Damning. >A thirst for power lies at the heart of Abbott's agenda www.canberratimes.com.au/.../...0121022-2818x.html

Marian Dalton‏
Abbott 'insists' that the ACT Greens form a coalition with the Libs? When did he become the Governor-General?

Oppn could support budget cuts: Abbott Channel 7

The government has argued the change recognises that families purchased durable, big-ticket nursery items when their first child was born.

However, Mr Abbott said this did not reflect the reality of having a family.

"Often one child is still in the cot when the second one comes along ... so you actually need an extra cot.

"I think if the government was a bit more experienced in this area they wouldn't come out with glib lines like that."
au.news.yahoo.com/.../?utm_source

Marian Dalton‏
Ohhhh || RT @Clarke_Melissa: Hmmm. Tony Abbott rails against baby bonus cuts, telling Ch 7 "If the govt had more experience in this area..."

Latika Bourke ‏
Suspect Tony Abbott's 'if only the Govt has more experience in this area' (families) line is retaliation for PM Gillard's misogyny attack

Sky News Australia‏
via @NinaBMay: Tony Abbott on Ch 7 re cuts to baby bonus: "if the government was a bit more experienced in this area... "

Whit Goughlam‏
The smirk on Abbott's face as he delivered the 'more experience' line shows his contempt for the electorate in another display of LNP hubris

Geraldine‏
here we go, Abbott using family dog whistle 2 remind PM childless while he defends middle class welfare over social welfare #breakfastnews

Lurline McCulloch‏
Australia doesn't need a P.M. with "foot in mouth" disease. Tony Abbott has done it again! What a NASTY comment on ALP's 'baby bonus' cut.

Werner & Ursula‏
@Schtang Abbott is a loose cannon. His sexism referring to the PM being childless clear to all! PETA must not be pleased!

Melissa Clarke‏
Julia Gillard's response on @amworldtodaypm: "I think Mr Abbott can explain what he meant by that line." @BreakfsatNews

Sarah Macdonald‏
When I hear Tony Abbott Talk about Labor front bench 'not understanding families" I hear a bit of a dog whistle aka Gillard not having kids.

James Massola‏
swannydpm explains how savings have strengthened Labor's budget #myefo afr.com/.../savings_strengthen_budget_position_JsQ8m5XnEZ1pXiJ2BE4alO

MowbrayHolmes‏   by Lenore Taylor
Voters expectations from Govt unrealistic. Scrimping and scraping is a necessary evil for balance www.smh.com.au/.../...-balance-20121022-281if.html … via @smh

Jack Sumner‏
Good interview of Hockey by @albericie #lateline exposing Oppn inconsistencies & lack of detail in policies. All done without interjection

Paul Webster‏
If you are relying on a payout to have children, maybe you need to stop breeding: www.dailytelegraph.com.au/.../story-e6freuy9-1226501049435 … #auspol

Chris Barrett‏
#couriermail would be skinning Swan alive today if not a surplus #libspill Swan's return to surplus at any cost www.couriermail.com.au/.../story-e6frerdf-1226501044195

D.R.Davis‏
Sexism speech shifts dynamics of bitter contest www.theage.com.au/.../...ntest-20121021-27zma.html … via @theage

Chris Ogilvie ‏
@sunriseon7 John Howard went too far with welfare payments, says Shadow Treasurer Joe Hockey: www.dailytelegraph.com.au/.../story-e6freuzr-1226333000084 … via @dailytelegraph #sun7

John Pratt‏
Letter shows Campbell Newman's uranium backflip #ABC http://www.abc.net.au/news/4327902 When is a backflip not a lie? When it's the

Australian News‏@LatestAusNews
Live blog: Liberal leadership fight in SA (ABC): Isobel Redmond has led the South Australian Li... http://yhoo.it/XLMH44 #ausnews #uavaus

Sky News Australia‏@SkyNewsAust
Surplus shows economic strength to world http://bit.ly/Si7CbN

walabytrack ‏
Lateline - 18/04/2012: We have bred entitlement: Hockey - www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3480665.htm … @JoeHockeyMP How's your Memory JOE!! JOE!! You There!!!!

James Douglas‏
Joe Hockey gets grilled on lateline www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3616330.htm … #auspol

Stephen C‏
In April @JoeHockey talked about "ending the sense of entitlement" & cutting welfare payments. Now he's against Baby Bonus cut

Geoff Pearson‏
Hockey losing sleep over Labor spendingwww.dailytelegraph.com.au/.../story-e6freuz0-1226501230310

SmileSmileSmileSmileSmile

Lyn

October 23. 2012 10:10 AM

Michael

Bruce Haigh nails it in the article linked to above in the Twitter chat collection.

Pretty Damning. >A thirst for power lies at the heart of Abbott's agenda www.canberratimes.com.au/.../...0121022-2818x.html

Abbott as PM would preside over the sociecide of this nation, driving wedges into our secular society that would fracture it along religious, cultural, social, economic and gender lines.

You reckon I protest too much?

Read 'Battlelines'. The title alone is enough if you want to cut to the narrow chase.

Tony Abbott is a threat to Australia.

Michael

October 23. 2012 10:24 AM

BSA Bob

Hi folks
Haven't seen the latest Abbott dog whistle yet, must track it down.
But reading about it this morning I felt what must be a small portion of the enthusiasm Talk Turkey has. Abbott's entire bag of tricks is now laid out & categorised for all to see, & this is more of the same & will surely be seen as such. And it seems he can't help himself. I've said before that my favourite 2007 election analogy is the Wizard of Oz one, with Howard desperately pulling on the same levers over & over & wondering why they don't work anymore. Surely Abbott's now in full view.
And speaking of 2007, as I recall, having failed to prevent Rudd Labor's election, the Oz decided to console itself by instructing Rudd to dismantle the Howard Handout system. 'Twill be interesting to see their comments on the middle class welfare cuts. Looking at the front pages I see the gutter end of the Murdoch empire is doing this. And I'm so, so tired of that very very old "Labor pains" line that I see the Hun has trotted out yet again today.

BSA Bob

October 23. 2012 10:48 AM

Tom of Melbourne

It's a similar position to a person who earns $50,000 per annum having to pay off a total debt of $1,500.

More fact free commentary, more repetition of incorrect analogies. GDP isn’t the equivalent of “personal income”. When Gillard used the analogy a while ago it demonstrated her inadequate understanding of economics, and her inclination to spin/deceive.

GDP is turnover, not income/profit from which you can subtract expenses.

Try the analogy using a business with $500,000 turnover, running at a typical EBIT of 6%, it then has to find the profit to fund its debt.

Tom of Melbourne

October 23. 2012 11:04 AM

paul walter

Clayfoot's nonsenses about Gillard not understanding the budget because she is a woman, I think Lyn could mean.
For passing up the dubious opportunity of being a walking incubator, it will be beyond the capacity of someone who grew up in a working a class home to understand the operation of a household budget and the mental effort effort required to prepare one; something that just about everyone else is capable of.
Please Abbott,just for once try to talk sense. Am getting intensely irritated with someone who is paid a fat salary by mainly poorer people to do a job; contribute to the nation's advance and continues to demonstrate the mental capacity of a disabled house-brick.

paul walter

October 23. 2012 11:12 AM

MWS

According to Bob Katter, the baby bonus is necessary because:
"Those poor struggling little mothers, they can't get men to shoulder their responsibilities," he said.  
From www.theage.com.au/.../...bbott-20121023-2829d.html

So (according to Bob Katter) ALL parents should receive the baby bonus because SOME parents don't receive child support from the other parent.  Wouldn't it be better to target single parents through Centrelink payments instead of giving taxpayers' money to parents who don't need it, and with no conditions on the spending of the baby bonus?

No wonder Katter doesn't vote very often if this is a sign of his "thinking"!

MWS

October 23. 2012 11:32 AM

Ad astra reply

Hi Lyn
You have been busy this morning collecting your Twitterverse, and what an interesting collection it is.  There seems little doubt in tweeters’ minds that the Abbott quip was deliberate.  Alternatively, it is such a part of his nature that he blurts out his malice without even thinking what he’s doing.  

Whatever it was, it will simply reinforce in the minds of those who see him as a nasty sexist that he is just that, and incorrigibly so.  Julia Gillard’s response tossed the quip back in Abbott’s court to explain, which of course he won’t, or he’ll use some weasel words to excuse himself.

Bruce Haigh’s article confirms Abbott’s habitual aggression and combatativeness.

I’ve still to work through your Links, but already I see that some of them are grist for my writing mill.

I’ll soon take a look at the Obama/Romney debate.

Ad astra reply

October 23. 2012 11:33 AM

Ad astra reply

Marian
You are a very welcome addition to our group of authors on TPS.  Thank you for offering your piece.  

I’m sure that those who comment here will appreciate your responses to them when your time permits.

BTW, this blog engine uses square brackets around tags instead of the usual angle brackets.

Ad astra reply

October 23. 2012 11:50 AM

42 long

  Deficit to GDP is a common comparison. Apparently Tony Abbott refinanced his own house and the debt was purported to be around $700,000. Perhaps THAT is why his haste to become PM at any cost. ( morally?).
    Austraia has the best set of figures in the western world and we all act as if the sky is falling in. Everyone talks the economy down. We are the 12th biggest economy in the world, with a AAA rating from all the ratings organisations
The LNP should realise that things are NOT the way THEY say they are just because they SAY so. They are so consistently negative that IF things were really BAD they would not be taken seriously by many because of their constant negativity.
  They might as well JUST say "everything this government does is BAD", because their comments are so contradictory when they get into specifics, that they just look stupid.
   IF they don't pass the Governments budget items WHO would then be to blame if the budget does not deliver a small surplus?

42 long

October 23. 2012 12:13 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Deficit to GDP is a common comparison.

Fine, it’s a point of reference. The stupidity is when people compare GDP to income, as Gillard has and which is typically parroted by some here.
--------------------
Swan inherited a particularly strong economy, and just as the economic strength didn’t help the political fortunes of Howard and Costello, there is no reason that it should help Gillard and Swan.

Swan has politicised stimulus & deficit so severely, that he’s locked into a contractionary fiscal policy during a time of reducing economic activity.

He gets it wrong - again.

Tom of Melbourne

October 23. 2012 01:14 PM

2353

In line with the Opposition's meme today - some here need more experience in raising a family.  

Someone's personal income is not solely "put in the bank" but is recirculated in the economy to pay for food, shelter, transport and so on.  Depending on personal circumstannces, a person on a $50,000 p.a. salary may not have the ability to pay off a $1,500 loan quickly.  To coin (sorry) a phrase, someone's income is turned over in the economy - in exactly the way a business or Government does.  

If the proprietor of a business relys on EBIT to live - the business is not operating on an ongoing basis.  In the majority of cases, the owner pays themselves a realistic wage based on the award or other commercial arrangements for the labour they contribute on a daily basis to the success of the business.  

There is also depreciation and other "legitimate" expenses that in reality are not always reserved to provide funding for the replacement of the plant and equipment essential for busienss operations as they reach the end of their economic lives.

What seems to be forgotten by some who run a small business (or who have no idea of how economics works) is that from a personal salary of say $50,000 p.a., all living expenses etc have to be paid - including interest (on loans, tax, food shelter, transport and so on).  A small business owner pays for their living expenses from the wage their business pays them.  The business "Earnings"  (either before or after) interest and tax is a return on investment in a similar fashion to a dividend received from a company's shares.

To borrow a phrase - "He gets it wrong - again."

2353

October 23. 2012 01:57 PM

LadyInRed

Does anyone else think that TAbbott is looking weirder these days on TV? His smile (smirk) is getting creepy, and what is that fake laugh about? I think the negative publicity has turned his face to stone and now whenever he wants to smile its a smirk and whenever he laughs its .....words fail me.....but I feel something creepy when he does it. Its like it is taking all his efforts to stop from jumping through the screen and job the interviewer, and possibly us, in the mouth.

LadyInRed

October 23. 2012 02:34 PM

Marilyn

Why are people still talking about things that have nothing to do with refugees?

We are trading and trafficking human beings, dumping them in shitpits without law or process and it is illegal and criminal.

What the fuck are the rest of you on about?

Marilyn

October 23. 2012 02:36 PM

2353

LiR - it's not creepy - it's Botox!

Seriously I believe that he can't believe that his scare campaign over the past couple of years has had no result.  The desperation is showing as he sees the soaring poll numbers reduce (and the internal polling is probably worse), the media starting to question his statements and doubts that he will ever pay off that $700,000 mortgage he got a few years ago.

Recaptcha bingo - "Salaried po"

2353

October 23. 2012 02:44 PM

42 long

You are right LiR. The laugh is particularly scary.
   On economic matters the AAA rating enables the gov't to borrow money at a rate that inflation cancells out. Money has to be paid off but WHO would really suggest that infrastructure, (bridges, roads ports, schools hospitals etc should only be purchased when you have enough CASH? Businesses have a debt to equity valuation . The gov't should run the same way. Should the nations Defences or Water resources be privatised?  The statement that private enterprise does it better cannot just be accepted without qualification. Private funding will not happen unless there is a "Quid in it". This puts no value on conservation or loss of natural resources as they don't enter into the equation. A monopoly is a bad thing generally also if not made answerable for efficency.

42 long

October 23. 2012 03:08 PM

Michael

Abbott was "oblivious" that he was channeling Alan Jones in his 'died of shame' references in his speech before Julia Gillard's response took him apart in Parliament for the world to witness.

Today he claims his slam at parliamentarians without parenting experience was "innocent comments" and not snidely directed at the Prime Minister.

Innocent and oblivious???

Yeah, and Machiavelli ran such a successful cooking show they named a pizza after him.

Michael

October 23. 2012 03:18 PM

LadyInRed

2353 - ahhhh botox.

David Marr did say in the Quarterley Essay:

His face is skin and bones. He smiles but his eyes are hooded. The overall effect is faintly menacing, as if he's about to climb into the ring.

Hooded and menacing...apt description of both the man and his character. And then there is that mortgage....ahh the financial pressures of a true family man, who knows the cost of a pram and a cot and knows that you can't cram 2 kids into the one pram and certainly not 2 kids in the one cot.....and uh shucks I was just talking of my own experience whilst pointing out that the other side has no experience with the practicalities of having kids despite almost all of the front bench (barr the PM of course) have kids.

I note that he came out the other day and said the election campaigne will be the filthiest ever. Now why would you use such words? And why the warning unless it is your own intent to be "filthy"?.....He is cracking up as many have predicted he would if there was even a hint that he might not win.

LadyInRed

October 23. 2012 03:38 PM

LadyInRed

MWS @ 11:12 AM

Good point.  By all means help those that need it.

Does anyone here think that the loss of $2000 would stop you from having a second child? Perhaps I am out of touch? I would think the ongoing support of the government for education, dental care and health care and extra family support benefits would be the major contributing fact on whether to have a second child?

LadyInRed

October 23. 2012 03:41 PM

Marilyn

OK, you lazy dingbats, how do you feel about wasting $2.3 billion over the next 2 years to torture a few thousand people who are victims of war while 9 million kids a year die of starvation and single parent families and their kids in Australia are turned into beggers.

Because you moronic clowns that is the issue you refuse to address with your ramblings about everything but the article.

Marilyn

October 23. 2012 03:49 PM

KHTAGH

Marion
  You pick a subject that is so hard to deal with, I don't know the answer, but I do know the cause, had not the LOTO started banging the xenophobe drum none of this would be a problem, same as they made an election issue out of the surplus & now we see what happens when they back labor into a corner to create one.


ladyinred

On a different note: Hi again everyone. Just got back from Hong Kong and South Korea. What a fabulous country South Korea is. So progressive, tech savvy, high speed rail, 10 lane highways, wonderful people, terrific food and service and so clean. Superior recycling system, everyone recycles everything, and carbon pricing in 2015. Anyone who says Asia is the problem needs to spend some time in an Asian country and get the facts. I was in Hong Kong 30 years ago and wow what a difference Chinese rule has made. When I was last there they still had people living in junks on the harbour, though I do think some of the charm has gone you can't fault that the Chinese want to lift their country up. Seoul and Hong Kong Airports make our Airports look pathetic (Brisbane International Airport pick up your sox, its dirty, smelly and inefficient).

  Never a more apt description of the world as it is over there, unfortunately it would seem most of or so called journos have never been out of Australia to see how the rest live/work.

Sorry for the delayed response, been hard at it in the garden for the last few days, me got new pain relief patches & they are so good no seesawing in & out of pain. Anyone who suffers permanent pain should inquire about them, trust me it will be worth it. Now back to reading what I have missed out on.

KHTAGH

October 23. 2012 03:50 PM

Jason

Marilyn,
       Have you lifted a finger or done anything to make these peoples lives any better since the last time I asked?

I once believed in onshore in the community processing perhaps you would have offered a room! then people like you came along with your megaphone and decided "because I believe in my cause so should you"!
It wasn't a matter of being allowed to have a different point of view or anything like that,and somehow we on this blog were going to change not only the governments thinking but that of the coalition as well! and when you got your first response from "us" you decided to call us all the names you could because you decided we had to agree with you!Who made you GOD?

Well to put it in a language you understand  I now don't give a fuck if they drown at sea or sit in detention camps for years, I've had it with them,I care even less about their problems or UN conventions because of people like you!, and I wont be lectured by lazy pricks like you who do nothing and I mean nothing but type out a few angry words and expect us to fall in line with you.
If that makes me a "Fucking moron" as you like to call people so be it!
I don't need or want your approval and couldn't care less what you think of me, but if you think your approach is the way to get people on your side to try and reverse governments decissions then it's you who is the "fucking moron".





Jason

October 23. 2012 03:58 PM

Casablanca

One might be forgiven for suspecting that Abbott was of the keep 'em barefoot and pregnant school of thought. Funny that!

Casablanca

October 23. 2012 04:10 PM

LadyInRed

KHTAGH

Thanks for your time in responding to my post. I do know about the pain relief patches, not by my own experience but the experience of others. They appear to be much kinder to the system in that you are not ingesting the medicine and the slow release works better....or so I have been told. So glad to hear that you are out in the garden and enjoying freedom of movement.

Absolutley Casablanca - I think he is just of that ilk. Also, he is a bit like some of the screechers on this site, if you ignore them, or they don't get the attention they believe they deserve, they get all nasty, the nastier they get the more venom that spews from their mouth, the more venom they spew the less likely we are to engage.

LadyInRed

October 23. 2012 04:17 PM

Tom of Melbourne

<i>”had not the LOTO started banging the xenophobe drum none of this would be a problem”</i>

Odd, I thought it was Gillard who 8 years ago said “another boat, another policy failure”. Was her orientation as Shadow immigration Minister to be bipartisan?

Was Rudd playing politics with the issue when he committed to turn the boats back in 2007?

The foolish contortions of barrackers really are funny.

Tom of Melbourne

October 23. 2012 04:19 PM

LadyInRed

A recent study has found that the more secular a democracy, the lower its rates of social dysfunction. Generally, higher rates of religiosity in prosperous democracies correlate with higher crime rates and poorer public health

newmatilda.com/2005/12/07/religion-good-you%3F

And be warned if you click on the horrors of the boot camps in the US it makes for absolutely shocking viewing. Grown men and women using military style punishment whilst trying to break a child into conforming.....its chilling.

LadyInRed

October 23. 2012 04:31 PM

Jason

Troll of Melbourne,
                  "barrackers"? This comming from someone with as much credibility as a phedophile priest! Your a joke Troll.
                  

Jason

October 23. 2012 04:49 PM

KHTAGH

I get the feeling that there is a definite turn happening, Julia has got angry as a lot of us have too.
  ENOUGH is ENOUGH, call them for what they are trolls are trolls sexist misogynist are sexist misogynist, they have thrown so many stones at the glass house of our parliament, now they are complaining about being caught & being asked to pay for the broken glass. In short they don't like being held to account, the answer!

  Wing Nuts expressions are very scary indeed, I thought it was just my personal bias against him that was festering my disgust, I'm glad to see I'm wrong. He got it off Costello [the smirking simian] he couldn't fix it either & look where he ended up.

KHTAGH

October 23. 2012 06:27 PM

Casablanca

Abbort, Hockey and Joyce should be required to attend the same fact-checking skills sessions that ACMA has ordered for Alan Jones. Much of the dis-information sprayed around by Abbott & Jones, in particular, comes from Credlin so she also should attend.

Joyce is from the crazy right and Hockey is all over the shop.
Hockey delivered a speech warning of the sense of entitlement and then Joyce chips in with a retail politician's call for more prams and cots supplied by the taxpayer. Hockey chipped in last night with a comparison to the one-child policy in China. Like I said, he is all over the shop.

Casablanca

October 23. 2012 07:07 PM

2353

So the Troll from Melbourne switches tack again.  Whats the matter diddums, can't spread FUD when presented with facts - again?

I assume (naively) that you have proof of Gillard commented that another boat full of refugees arrived in Australia while Howard's policy of stop the boats was in effect.  She was right - a refugee boat arriving in Australia was a demonstration that the policy wasn't working.  Didn't work then, doesn't work now and won't work in the future.

Now go away and find something else to complain about.  Oh and by the way - figured out how to vote yet?

2353

October 23. 2012 07:41 PM

janice

Marian, thank you for your thoughtful piece.  It cannot be denied that there is some racism involved in the reaction of Australians to the arrival of the boats. However, I think the racist card is overplayed and I do believe that most Australians are not comfortable with detention centres and that most Australians object to be forced by these people to accept them with open arms.

I believe that we are a generous nation and would be happy to welcome an increased intake of refugees out of the world's camps regardless of the colour of their skin, provided our economy and our infrastructure are capable of sustaining such increases to our population.  It is for economic reasons that our government wants a controlled and orderly flow of migrants into the country.

The people who are arriving on our shores by boats are paying large sums of money to people smugglers.  Not only do they by pass the camps of many thousands of refugees who've been waiting for several years to find a new home country, but they give not a moment's thought to the cost to the people of the country they propose to force themselves upon, by sea rescues and then when their expectations are not met, by rioting and burning the facilities provided for them.

Personally, I weep for all those thousands of people who've been stuck in refugee camps for years and have no money to pay a people smuggler.  





janice

October 23. 2012 07:54 PM

jane

Great post Marian. I agree that neither side comes out of the asylum seeker issue with much to boast about.

It's heartbreaking that all this money and appalling racism has been expended purely for cynical political advantage, when it could have been so different.

It's also extremely ironic considering the way most of our forbears came to inhabit this country.

I have remarked to quite a few boat people ranters, that now they should understand how the Aborigines feel. Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, it goes straight over their heads.

It shouldn't take more than 6 months to process asylum seekers requests for asylum and for health checks and quarantine.

Unfortunately, the poor wretches who come here believing the myth of the "fair go" are being treated as political fodder in a sordid game of brinkmanship to win the redneck vote by one side and damage control by the other.

I hope the government's refusal to nominate a time frame for detention, means that asylum seekers claims will be quickly processed.

Jason, in fairness, Marilyn has been active in asylum seeker welfare advocacy for many years.

If my memory serves, she was very involved in trying to save the Bakthiari family from being returned to their certain doom in Afghanistan.

It was a particularly shameful episode and must have been a scarring experience for their advocates.

www.theage.com.au/.../1090089021931.html

Nevertheless, to paraphrase your comment, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

ToM, comparing GDP to income seems to be popular amongst all those inferior economists who apparently don't have your superior economic credentials.

It must be an endless source of frustration that these dolts have so little appreciation of Hockeynomics.

And oddly enough these same crazy individuals seem to be under the deluded impression that there has been a severe economic downturn in the developed economies.

Their delusions are even more manifest by lauding the economic management of this country by one Wayne Swan. The only ones who seem to subscribe to your viewpoint seem to reside in Liarsland.

WRT the cost of upgrading the communications network of this country to international standards, I bet it also costs exponentially more for roads here than it does in South Korea. So are you suggesting we should not have roads in this country?

jane

October 23. 2012 07:55 PM

Tom of Melbourne

While Ad Astra seems to attempt to maintain some decorum in exchanges, other ALP barrackers prefer to lapse into insults. They find is so much easier than figuring out how to respond to facts that prove that this Prime Minister and her government are just as dishonest and expedient as any of the predecessors.

None can quite figure out how Gillard was displaying bipartisanship when she said “another boat, another policy failure. Or how the ALP leader was being humanitarian  when he said “you’d turn the boats back”

The fact is that the ALP has more than its fair share of rednecks. It forms a large and traditional part of its constituency.

It’s hilarious that so many just wish it was all different.

Tom of Melbourne

October 23. 2012 08:13 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Jane, tell me what you think. Is GDP analogous to income or turnover?

As for broadband, Australia is one of the most urbanised countries in the world, 90% live in cities. It should be no more expensive to roll cable out in an Australian city.

Is the (minimum) 5 fold price increase due to extending broadband to 10%? Are we spending an extra $35bn to provide it to 10% of the population?

At what point does it become uneconomic? at $50bn? $60bn?

Or does the ALP cheer squad just want it regardless of the price?

Tom of Melbourne

October 23. 2012 08:14 PM

Gravel

Marion

Thank for your topic.  Having just read all the replies, I have to say that Janice and I have been on the same page about asylum seekers for quite a while now.  I became a great convert to the Regional Agreement, especially the Malaysian part, as that is where most people first land, and is a processing centre.  The reaction by the Nopposition when it was first mentioned gave me a feeling that they didn't want it because it would be effective.  The last thing they want is for a solution as that is the last crutch they now have to lean on.

To the most recent 'controversy'.  Abbott knew exactly what he was saying this morning, and my disgust in him deepened.  I watched 7,10,7(again), SBS and ABC news.  They all reported it, so at least now the Nopposition is getting a taste of what Julia and Labor have had to put up with for the last over two years.

LadyinRed

Welcome home, glad you had a great time, and what a great time to come back when maybe the unhinging is beginning.  It will be a while yet before anything comes to a head, but it is nice to see the overseas media sticking it up abbott about his comments today.  It may make the MSM here take note that the world is watching what he says after Julia's brilliant disceting of him.

Knee High

Glad you are having relief of pain, hope you can continue enjoying your garden.  How's your bees going?

Lyn

Got through a few links today, only to have added more now.  Thanks Smile

Gravel

October 23. 2012 08:19 PM

2353

Troll from Melbourne was asked for a quote to prove his accusation regarding Gillard.  Note the post above - he hasn't provided the evidence so the only logical assumption is that it never happened.  Secondly he hasn't addressed why boats were arriving during Howard's tenure when he publicly stated that he would decide who would come to this Country - clearly it was a policy failure when boats arrived despite the rhetoric.

Jane - agree with your comment on the time taken to check the bone fides of refugees - Canada (with a very conservative government) apparently gets twice as many people and can do the work in an average of 3 days.

Footnote - when asked for evidence, most on this blog will provide it or admit they were mistaken - apparently that convention doesn't apply to trolls.

2353

October 23. 2012 08:23 PM

jane

Shadow treasurer Joe Hockey dismissed Labor's argument the government was doing the "heavy lifting" to balance the books, saying the MYEFO was a "hodge-podge" document that fiddled with the numbers.

"It does leave me sleepless if I'm to become treasurer, at the next election," he told ABC Radio.


I'm bloody sleepless at the thought that Sloppy might become Treasurer at the next election.

jane

October 23. 2012 08:44 PM

2353

Bloody Apple autocorrect - "bone fides" should read bona fides"

2353

October 23. 2012 08:46 PM

Jason

jane,
    "Jason in fairness, Marilyn has been active in asylum seeker welfare advocacy for many years." So what!
That doesn't give her the right to behave in the fashion she does.
I'm quite active in one of my activities doesn't mean I should make you active does it?

Jason

October 23. 2012 08:53 PM

KHTAGH

Gravel

How's your bees going?
  On that point, prediction swords folk, nature is saying long hot one coming, I've had 5 swarms already in the first few weeks of the swarm season, where as I only had 8 in the entire season last yr.

  I actually got 3 swarms at the Falls festival last yr due to the fact the bees kept thinking all these yellow tents were bloody big flowers & that was on new yr's eve, well past their norm, 3 days free pass [all area entry] pass via car, the only person driving around the entire festival [was great].

   Unfortunately in this country hot ones come with fire too!!!.

KHTAGH

October 23. 2012 08:55 PM

Ad astra reply

Folks
I’ve been busy today preparing my next piece: The MSM is dangerously shortchanging us, as well as mowing a couple of acres of grass.

I’ve enjoyed reading your comments.  Thank you for keeping up the momentum.

I’m calling it a day.

Ad astra reply

October 23. 2012 09:02 PM

KHTAGH

  Thinking of that, here is an insight into the young of today, when the falls festival is over there is around 100+ tents brand new & equipment just left standing, too lazy to backup [I'll just buy another one next yr]. Just so you know the organiser's go around & collect them & send them to the first environmental disaster that needs them, so there is a good aspect to their laziness.

KHTAGH

October 23. 2012 09:31 PM

jaycee

There has to be something desperately wrong for a person to serially haunt just to torment anyone who is not receptive to their taunts.
Of course, there are those who relentlesly tease till they get a reaction..an addiction to want to be noticed. There are those, who out of spite at NOT being given the intellectual recognition they can never achieve, stalk their target. Then there are those who are just undiagnosed unhinged!
You have to really wonder what their home life is all about. Perhaps they have none and it is all done out of a sense of loneliness...whatever it is that drives the hunger, one would at least hope they get a good nights' sleep sometimes!  

jaycee

October 24. 2012 12:24 AM

TalkTurkey


Greetings Comrades,

First I want to apologise for my remissness in not having acknowledged hitherto the splendid threads by Rollisons mere et fille in the last few weeks, and now I do say thank you, as well to you two as to Marion Dalton, whose writings I have read and know to be one of the more sensible commentators on Question Time Live.
Kay I must say I enjoy your style particularly, not to belittle the other two gals. It's of course because they're so young and you are a little closer to my age that I relate so closely to your writing. Splendid last thread, very much to my own way of thinking. I studied a little "Political Science" too, though I think not as studiously as you.

You are all three very welcome here at The Political Sword, and thank you especially for taking a little of the pressure off our host.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Unlike Lyn and perhaps some few others I can't keep up with all on TPS myself, I'm a patchy peripatetic peruser of posts, and I'm spending too much time on Twitter too. But gee there's some good writing and insight here - and I do catch most of it I think.
In particular of course one notices one's own ID when it's mentioned in someone else's post, so eg TT jumps out of a page at me, and so does the word Turkey - a lot of whose references are to places in strife in the Middle East atm.

So I did particularly notice your reference to me BSA Bob, and Thank You, it makes me feel it's all worthwhile to think, as I always have hoped, that my sanguinity helps give others heart too.

I must say it astonishes me that there have been so few with my full-on conviction on the Fighting 5th Estate; Ad astra himself always has been optimistic and some few others here, but mostly folks have been sufficiently browbeaten by the MSM that, until recently, they were nearly as convinced of the inevitability of an Abborttian government as the MSM itself.

Well it was never going to be inevitable: on the contrary, the inevitability was always going to be on our side. I was calling the outcome of the next election within weeks of the last, and that was not based on hubris, nor on wishful thinking, but on an assessment of the relative leaders and their front benchers.

What more, really, did I need to know? I was as close to certain as the laws of probability allow, that not only was *J*U*L*I*A* a vastly cleverer and more charming leader than Abbortt would ever be, who could and would negotiate her way past every snare, but more importantly, that Abbortt himself would not last the distance 'til The Poll Is Called Up Yonder. He had to screw up, and I was sure he would bring his mob of yobs down with him. I believe that all this is now glaringly obviously coming to pass.

I have spoken, perhaps ad nauseam, of my 'Eye of Time' (thank you Catweazle!) As I have said before, it is nothing mystical, but rather just logical - akin to a 'palmist' examining the palm of a person's hand and knowing a good bit about the owner just from its lines and tremors: if it is calloused, nervous, sweaty or cold, and so on. Well it's only a matter of extrapolation, and backing my projection I predicted this specific era to be Abbortt's downfall: from the Ides of September, the 13th, (The Sword's 4th birthday as happens), as the day of which I said Abbortt must beware - the day when his spring would be sprung, basically, and as Ad will attest, that was spot on. [Leigh Sales pwned him on the 9th, but it took a weekend for the awful truth to dawn on him: "I'm done for!" ] Ad and I agreed that day, per landline, that his downfall at last was inevitable and imminent. And so it is.)

I have predicted that he will be challenged in November, and that he will be dead meat by the end of December.

That doesn't necessarily mean he will be rolled. I was already speculating on the next Opposition Leader by Christmas 2010 (!) though why I thought Dutton could ever be a chance - ?! - well I didn't know what a toxic drip he was then of course. But they have NOBODY who can hope to swing enough of their stupid hoonherd in behind him/herself to form a convincing phalanx, let alone formulate any policy - the Right won't wear any revisionism of their 18th Century Born-to-rule precepts, and the People won't wear their Newmanesque threats of destruction of jobs and general perfidy, as is now so obviously the clear agenda of the Abborttians.
But I'm betting on a challenge anyway next month. And whoever is there by December will be so maggot-ridden that it doesn't matter who it is.

As I say it has surprised me how few people felt much hope of a Labor win until recently. That has really changed at last, yes starting with the Ides Of September, but accelerating exponentially ever since, as Anal Jones' and Abbortt's misogyny and disgusting insults to *J*U*L*I*A* - and her brilliant response - and the UN seat . . . and Abbortt's churlish sour-grapes response to that! - all quietly come home to roost, and each one leaves Abbortt more comprehensively in tatters.  

So, as far as I'm concerned, all is well, the Gillard Plan is proceeding comme il faut. Regardless of the amazing bumps and potholes the Government has had to negotiate, and the astounding complicity of the MSM - none of which "Eye of Time" can foresee of course - we are still on track, a lot like Ben-Hur's chariot even after it has to jump crazily over a smashed one in its path. It says a great deal for *J*U*L*I*A* herself.            

I relish the coming weeks and months. Especially I look forward to the election itself.

Do some of you readers remember my telling you, wtte Discount my information if I am seriouslyw wrong about my predictions about The Ides of September? Well I was seriously right! And why? - because from the first I correctly read our PM's whole strategy, viz., Get the legislation through first, by good drafting and clever negotiation: Only then go on the attack. It was the logical thing to do, and she is logical.

And how she has struck! Like a lady scorpion! Abbortt looked like he had been TASERed (as I'm seeing on ABC24 as I write.) And he will NEVER recover.

Three months ago I put what for me is quite a wad on Labor for the next election, I got SEVENS. Now Labor is in to $3.25 and I reckon it's still overpriced. I think we are at far better than even money to win this election Comrades, and for all the reasons I ever thought would determine the issue.    

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

! . . . Just saw *J*U*L*I*A* and Tania Plibersek happily releasing brand-new Monarch butterflies.

Prime Minister we love you!
  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You know what I always say Comrades
(well OK not always but often)

VENCEREMOS!

And we will too.

TalkTurkey

October 24. 2012 01:12 AM

Casablanca

Michael @ October 23. 2012 03:08 PM

In his interview on Sunrise when asked about Hockey's reference to China's one child policy Abbott gave his scary grin and said, 'That's a colourful phrase' AND then said 'I don't think that it's one that I've used myself'. Another 'can't remember' moment - these and 'innocent comment' moments are starting to become a pattern.
au.news.yahoo.com/.../?utm_source

LadyInRed @ October 23. 2012 01:57 PM & 2353 @ October 23. 2012 02:36 PM

Botox seems to be one likely explanation. Also, it struck me recently that Abbott has allowed his feminine side to prevail and has dyed his hair. In the Yahoo video his hair looked newly dyed but it also had this sort of painted-on look. It could be a tonsure or even a toupee! Last time I saw the back view he had a big bald patch and thinning locks.

Casablanca

October 24. 2012 01:29 AM

DMW

Hi Marian,
thanks for an interesting, balanced and informative post.

Your use of sentencing statistics as a comparator is inspired and clever. When combined with the 'unit cost' of incarcerating irregular maritime arrivals we could hope that these are numbers that could scare some common sense into people but, being a confirmed pessimist on this topic, I have doubts.

The sentencing times reminds me of a lady that is often dragged state campaigns although Mr Abbott has invoked her name as well.

When a few extra votes are needed that fine lady, Laura Norder, gets a good run.

Although I need to check the name I suspect one of Laura's relations, Sealiour Border, is a favourite mascot for too many of our weak-kneed pollies.

DMW

October 24. 2012 02:13 AM

DMW

As an aside, and, speaking as I was, about numbers that could scare some common sense into people, the ACT Election numbers are interesting.

According to the latest count http://www.electionresults.act.gov.au/ both Labour & Liberal have 38.9% of the primary vote and the Greens 10.7%. This will apparently translate to eight seats for the Liberals, seven for Labor and two for the Greens.

Weird and interesting.

When you look at the oddities thrown up by this result using the (modified) Hare-Clark system and also in the Tasmanian lower house you can gain some understanding of why many of our federal pollies are dead scared of proportional representation and using multi member electorates for House of Reps elections.

DMW

October 24. 2012 07:42 AM

Lyn

TODAY’S LINKS

Indonesians Tell Abbott Where To Stick Tow-Back. Coalition Pledges Attainment Of World Peace.
Abbott and Morrison will now attempt to conceal the fact that the Indonesians have explictly rejected tow-back on the basis that rejection is diplomacy-in-confidence, despite Indonesia’s public statements that amount to a the same thing and the right of the Australian public to know that the proferred policy of tow-back is now a logical impossibility
indifferencegivesyouafright.wordpress.com/.../indonesians-tell-abbott-where-to-stick-tow-back

Pro-Choice, Sal Piracha, Only The Depth Varies
If Tony Abbott felt that he needed prove his great relationships with women, his superior understanding of women and how we work, he should have stayed in bed this morning, or sent Margie in his place. Instead, he fronted the post-MYEFO media and declared that the Government doesn't really understand families; if they did, they would never have monkeyed around with the Baby Bonus.
http://onlythedepthvaries.blogspot.com.au/

The real context: sexism is getting worse, Peter Lewis, The Drum
To have our first female Prime Minister share her deep offense at being described as a man's bitch provided a powerful point of connection for women, many of whom may now have access to the trappings of equality yet still feel trapped by the straightjacket of society's judgement.This is the real context for the Prime Minister's speech
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4327520.html

The News Ltd journalist does not hate women- Part 2 (Aug – Dec 2011), Uthers Say
a response to the exhibition of uniformity in the Australian media “in defence of their man (Tony Abbot)” from the allegations of sexism and misogyny made by the woman (the Australian Prime Minister) in Federal Parliament on 9 October 2012.
utherssay.com/.../

Does Father Know Best, The Hoopla
Does he do it deliberately, doesn’t think, or just doesn’t care? Opposition leader Tony Abbott again finds himself up to his neck in sexist soup after a comment which appears to refer to Prime Minister Julia Gillard’s childlessness
http://thehoopla.com.au/father-best/

When you are a Liberal propagandist, all you see is evidence of Tony Abbott under siege, Turn Left 2013
Tony Abbott then turned this into an attack on the Prime Minister, and her lack of understanding families – was this another cheap shot about her recently deceased father or the PM’s lack of children.
turnleft2013.wordpress.com/.../

Journalists are from Mars, Bloggers are from Venus , Blogical Voice
Julia Gillard will be remembered for the day she embarrassed Tony Abbott in Parliament and brought issues of sexism and misogyny back into the political foreground. Though were it not for the way the internet now shapes every facet of our media consumption, her words may have been remembered very differently
theblogicalvoice.com/.../

Fighting climate facts with Alan Jones and friends,Graham Readfern,  Independent Australia
Among the measures, Jones’ daily monologues – the centrepiece of the show – will have to be fact-checked first by his producer. Any documents used in fact checking will have to be retained. Jones and the rest of the current affairs staff at the station will also have to undergo training “concerning factual accuracy and significant viewpoints
www.independentaustralia.net/.../

Where are the women in the Liberal Party?, Stephen Luntz , Crikey
I wouldn’t say this is proof of a misogynistic culture in the party, but it raises questions that deserve to be answered. How well can a party with so few women in Parliament represent the majority of Australians? Why are these numbers so low, and more significantly, why does the Liberal Party seem so untroubled by them?
www.crikey.com.au/.../

Malcolm in the middle,Robert Simms, On Line Opinion
For more than a year the Coalition has held a seemingly unassailable lead in the opinion polls. But after a bruising few months of media gaffes, speculation about his university days and damaging outbursts from some high-profile supporters (Corey Bernadi and Alan Jones), Tony Abbott's march to the Lodge is looking less like a sprint and more like a hurdle race.
www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=14261

Joe Hockey defends the culture of entitlement, which he opposes, Peter Martin
On Radio National today:"We don’t support blanket cuts because the Government has determined that’s the way they are going to do it... There are a million Australians earning $24,000 or less that have private health insurance
www.petermartin.com.au/.../...ends-culture-of.html

SA Liberals: changing leaders again?, Gary Sauer-Thompson, Public Opinion
The politics of the SA Liberals remains mired in conflict and empty talking points about the private sector being more efficient than the public sector, public debt is always a risk and running down wind farms. They seem to be so anti-renewables (wind farms especially) that their position could have been written by someone in the fossil fuel industry,
www.sauer-thompson.com/.../sa-liberals-cha.php

Now Hockey contradicts Turnbull on NBN costs, Renai LeMay, Delimeter
I’m only a small business owner who almost failed Accounting 1A at university, but even I know the difference between the two. I am tired of writing about this issue. When even Malcolm Turnbull has acknowledged that the Government’s accounting treatment of the NBN is correct, why does Joe Hockey continue to make factually incorrect statements on this issue?
http://ht.ly/eH1uE

Julia Gillard's 'misogynist' rival in new sexism row over baby remark, Alison Rourke, Guardian UK
Abbott later told Fairfax radio he was talking about his own experience – not the prime minister's – when he made the comment, having needed a double pram for two of his daughters born about 15 months apart."If she [Gillard] wants to take offence of course I'm sorry about that. And if she would like me to say sorry, I'm sorry," he said.
www.guardian.co.uk/.../julia-gillard-misogynist-sexism-baby

Tony Abbott revives Julia Gillard sexism row , Jonathan Pearlman,The Telegraph, UK
A week after he was branded a misogynist in a passionate speech by Ms Gillard, Mr Abbott today revived the debate over his alleged sexism
www.telegraph.co.uk/.../...Gillard-sexism-row.html

Today’s Front Pages
Australia Newspaper Front Pages for 24 October 2012
www.frontpagestoday.co.uk/index.cfm

Lyn

October 24. 2012 08:11 AM

Marian

It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, but ASEAN ambassador Dr Surin Pitsuwan has publicly rejected the Coalition's 'tow back the boats' solution. He said it was 'counterproductive', and warned that such a strategy might well jeopardise 'other issues on the international agenda'.

Dr Surin actually doubts whether an Abbott government would try to impose tow-backs. Personally, I think history is against him.

Source:  www.theage.com.au/.../...acked-20121023-283k5.html

Marian

October 24. 2012 08:25 AM

Ad astra reply

LYN'S DAILY LINKS updated: www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...-DAILY-LINKS.aspx

Ad astra reply

October 24. 2012 10:09 AM

BSA Bob

Talk Turkey
Thanks for your thanks.
Yes, the Fifth Estate has come along in leaps & bounds lately, with the Old Guard at first snootily dismissive of it all & now attempting to clamber aboard as it gathers speed down the track.
Agreed that the liberals have big problems in what to do with Abbott & who should replace him. This has been the case for a long time of course & like everything else to do with them has been swept under the carpet. But it's still there. Please, please let these problems into the open before the election. Because they will come into the open & the thought of it all happening when they're in government is frankly terrifying.

BSA Bob

October 24. 2012 10:21 AM

BSA Bob

Marian at 08.11
I saw a reference to this somewhere this morning & the gentleman you refer to has apparently said the whole region realises this stance of Abbott's is purely for domestic consumption. As is obvious.
"where possible" is of course the getout clause & it's interesting how little this glaringly apparent fact's been pointed out. I had the dubious honour of listening to the Downer interview where he spoke about turning the boats back previously. Typical "look at me, aren't I important & isn't this a jolly jape, pass the cream buns" Downer & from memory he referred to Indonesia's accepting the boats back "through gritted teeth". Not something they'd do in public these days?
Should the depressing event of his prime ministership come to pass this'll be one of the big issues where he'll have to rely on the media for support.

BSA Bob

October 24. 2012 11:30 AM

LadyInRed

Casablanca I have been trying to get a picture of TAbbott's latest hair-do thinking perhaps he is using a spray can of fake hair stuff. I haven't found one but I did find this in the Herald - have a look at the very last picture its hilarious.

www.heraldsun.com.au/.../story-fndo317g-1226501892258

What I have noticed is that the MSM are more willing lately to use unflattering pictures of TAbbott where they nearly always try to find one of the PM and never hesitate to use them.

Lyn thanks for the links. The media in this country think they can brow beat us into to believing that the PM's speech went viral simply because it was taken out of context. They still don't get it, we can think for ourselves. Its a new concept for them I know but honestly gone are the days when they can simply tell us what to think. Its maddening when people like Piers Ackerman tell us that the PM's speech was not brilliant because it was taken out of context. I just read his vile column in the Telegraph "Those cheers for PM's speech miss the point". If anyone missed the point it was Ackerman proving he has no relevance in todays media other than to sprout information to people who already share his point of view. The Telegraph describes him as : One of the nations most respected journalists. I dispute that claim, to be respected you have to have to give a fair and acurate view of the event, not simply give an opinion which is clearly biased. And if you go on the read the comments on his page it resonated with the most vile mysogynistic clap trap I have read in quite a while, proving who he appeals to and as such The Telegraph should take down that claim about him being the nations most respected journalist.

LadyInRed

October 24. 2012 11:45 AM

Lyn

Good Morning Ad, Marian and Everybody

Here is Twitterverse for you.  

If you missed the Press conference with Craig Thomson there is a video link below. Seems Ray Hadley was there before the Police, there are lots of people saying since when is he a Journalist.  Ray Hadley's behaviour was absolutely disgraceful, nobody has the right to speak to anyone like he did to Craig.

Bushfire Bill
Posted Wednesday, October 24, 2012 at 9:17 am
The Liberal Party could do itself and Australia a major, cleansing, favour: sack Mr Abbott, Ms Credlin and Mr Loughnane.

This trio has spent the best part of four years wrecking the joint.

The line I’ve used with my colleagues in the high-discretionary-spending area of high-end Home entertainment has been simple:

“Every time Abbott or Hockey trash the economy, you lose another sale.”
blogs.crikey.com.au/.../#comment-1451047

Simon Cullen‏
Listen to the audio of Craig Thomson's lawyer speaking about this morning's raid - attached to this story: www.abc.net.au/.../4330796

2013 Labor Gusface‏
EVERYONE - CONTACT ICAC RE NSW POLICE INFORMING THE MSM BEFORE GOING TO THOMSON'S HOUSE

Simon Cullen‏
Craig Thomson's lawyer: "Is the purpose of the raid the administration of justice or... (the) continuing the campaign against my client?"

Kate McClymont‏
The oldest cadet reporter in the world has just arrived on the scene at Craig's Bateau Bay home - Ray Hadley.

Chris Ogilvie ‏
2GB's Ray Hadley was waiting for police to raid Craig Thomson, I would ask everybody to call for an investigation into obvious media tip

Equitist‏
Disturbing - cop corruption? MT @Volvo_of_doom Ray Hadley at..Thomson House in Person? 2GB & The Liberal Party getting desperate... #AUSpol

Denise‏
ABCNews24 ...who is the rude aggressive journalist trying to bully Thomson??

Marianne ‏
Shut up Ray Hadley, you ignorant boor, worry about your own charges.

Tracey Spicer‏
"No amount of shouting from the media will change the way this investigation will go." #auspol

grace pettigrew‏
#abcnews24 Journalists shouting aggressively and abusively at Thomson are disgraceful

Whit Goughlam‏
Oi Hadley, Stick to monstering 17 year olds, you're a cowardly, overblown, self promoting grub.

RobinW‏
Interview with Craig Thomson, this is not a shock jock show, the reporter (?Ray Hadley) was rude, belligent and well out of line

James Massola‏
Sounds like 2GB's Ray Hadley has a few questions ready for MP Craig Thomson.

Jim McDonald‏
A reporter shouting at Graig Thomson - I thought the professional role was to ask questions not to argue the assumption of guilt

public-sector-person‏
Mr Thomson's lawyer: "It's very distressing that every journalist in the country knew about this but my client didn't."

Libs fear 'referendum' on Abbott
au.news.yahoo.com/.../

Australian News‏
Bryce's term as Governor-General extended: Governor-General Quentin Bryce has had her term exte... http://bit.ly/Spcfkb #ausnews

Police raid on city candidate
''Anyone convicted of these offences would face penalties of up to five years' imprisonment and heavy fines,'' said Chief Municipal Inspector David Wolf.
www.theage.com.au/.../...idate-20121023-282pe.html

Coalition boat plan attacked
m.theage.com.au/.../...ttacked-20121023-283k5.html

Abbott baby remarks hit barren political ground, Jill Ireland
www.smh.com.au/.../...l-ground-20121023-283ir.html

Coalition may back cuts with eye ahead, Phillip Coorey
Mr Abbott said Labor was ''hyperventilating''.
''If she wants to take offence of course I'm sorry about that. And if she would like me to say sorry, I'm sorry,'' he said.
www.nationaltimes.com.au/.../...0121023-283hn.html

Peter Hartcher
www.smh.com.au/.../others-take-australia-seriously–and-we-should-too-20121022-281ha.html

Mattie ‏
Abbott's bluff & bluster called out for the political rhetoric it is RT Diplomat rejects Abbott's tow-back plan www.smh.com.au/.../...ack-plan-20121023-283hp.html

National Times‏@NationalTimesAU
Union orders secret poll on Rudd revival www.nationaltimes.com.au/.../...0121023-283k8.html

National Times‏@NationalTimesAU
Abbott gives birth to another faux pas www.nationaltimes.com.au/.../...0121023-283k4.html

Financial Review‏@FinancialReview
James Packer's plan for a new Sydney casino moves closer to fruition with @AustralianLabor backing [free] http://bit.ly/T97vgO #ASX

A.J.‏@SnivellingPinko
Gittins on tax: "If we each got back pretty much what we put in, it would indeed be a pointless, wasteful exercise." www.theage.com.au/.../...e-way-20121023-283ag.html

vexnews‏
Labor feigns outrage as creative accountant Lib MP Geoff Shaw makes obscene "wanker" gesture in parliament #springst http://bit.ly/QUaxFQ

SmileSmileSmileSmileSmile

Lyn

October 24. 2012 12:15 PM

nasking



My Facebook site:

www.facebook.com/nick.king.1232760?ref=tn_tnmn

Memories of Bush, Iraq...and ties to Romney.

N'

nasking

October 24. 2012 12:26 PM

jane

They still don't get it,...

They still don't want to get it,.....

There, fixed, LIR.

jane

October 24. 2012 12:32 PM

jane

Jason, my comment was not a criticism of you. We're all heartily sick of being abused by Marilyn, particularly as she has no idea how active any of us is in asylum seeker welfare, she just makes assumptions that we're cretins because we haven't jumped on her bandwagon.

However, I thought that we should all know a bit about Marilyn.

jane

October 24. 2012 12:47 PM

TalkTurkey

Marion
On thread at last

I must say my mind struggles wrt Asylum Seekers.

As background, I have always wished that people had taken the notion of ZPG seriously when so long ago we of Hippie consciousness were trying so hard to promote the idea. In those days most everybody talked about it, today I doubt that 10% would even know the term. ?Is there anybody on TPS who doesn't? I would think that most here do, but younger ones may not even be aware that there has ever been a movement to try to limit global population growth to zero. There has never been such a catastrophic 'FAIL'.

So we have seven billions today; fifty years ago, when the Beatles starting blowing minds with new ideas and wonderful songs, the population was less than half that. It is ridiculous, but it is what you get when Religions encourage maximum breeding, antibiotics to keep us living longer, and mass exploitation of finite natural resources to our garganyu. We are racing towards a wall of mass extermination and we are just joking about it.

Revelations says it all by the way. '. . . one stone shall not remain upon another . . .' . . . people trying to hide from His Wrath and all that. Just because I'm nontheist doesn't mean I can't see the writing on walls of every kind all around me, Bible not least. And it is overcrowding that makes it certain.

Now, here we have a female Prime Minister who is being scorned by a mindless Catholic thug for being childless (like me and also our resident Grasshopper, who like me counts that state as being a mixed blessing.) It is probably beyond Abbortt's dim consciousness to conceive that a woman might choose to remain childless in order to achieve greatness by other means. That it might be a noble, deliberate sacrifice, or even harder for him to understand, a lively wish never to have to worry about terrible things happening to your progeny "even unto the third generation." (Nobody thinks to-the-nth do they?)
What sort of world will your grandkids have Folks eh? That last consideration has certainly been a deciding issue with me, at least I don't have to worry about that. And KHTAGH shares that gladness. But equally, we miss the joys breeding may bring.

So the point is, I wish there were NO people coming to Australia, we are far beyond any notion of sustainability already and it is just Humanity's greatest insanity deliberately to keep increasing population. Anybody familiar with the history of Easter Island in the last few hundred years must already realize that they are glimpsing the horrific future through a tiny window of horror in the past. But the climax civilizations of the New World, and notable Egyptian cities, all tell the same story - but this time it's global.

Now, to grapple with the real problem confronting Australians and their government right now: considerations include our deliberate immigration program, genuine refugees and some not-so-genuine, international obligations, the social milieu and the cynical fomented hatred of the Abborttian Opposition, the horror of drownings at sea, the political reality of the need to stand a chance of re-election . . . all ingredients for a witches' cauldron of double double bubbling trouble.   How to grapple with that?

Well I don't know, but while wishing I could send all of us back, back through the wombs of several generations to a time when there was around a sixteenth of our present population and a place yet largely undamaged . . . we have the reality.

I think that the regional strategy - I don't care for the term "solution" - is the only way to go. I have always thought so, anyway since the damnable ill-advised stupid self-important High Court decision spiked the sensible previous Government initiative wrt Malaysia and other places. The High Court's decision, let me point out, has been a contributing factor to many drownings already, and until a rational decent procedure is agreed, on a basis honourable to all participating nations, more lives may yet be lost unnecessarily because the HC had to know better. Bullshit, the decision was no more than a whim by a few old men (there may have been a woman?) who think their wigs make them wise.

Australia is in an unusual situation, our moat gives us a buffer few other countries have. With it come blessings and responsibilities, and realities some of which are inescapable. One, Australians will not wear domestic processing, and two, we must have some logical system. These are human beings we're dealing with here.

One thing is very clear: the Marilyns screeching insanely from positions which apparently they think makes them morally superior, or blameless, or personally exempt, or discharged of responsibility by virtue of their abuse-spitting, are only stirring a pool deliberately muddied by criminal cynical creeps like Abbortt. (He calls boat-people illegals when they are NOT,
I call him criminal for better reasons.)

This is nothing to do with punishment. It is to do with humanity. Expect to find that with Humanists before  Religiomanes - remember, the Good Samaritan was neither Jew nor Christian, but a despised irreligious Gentile. But he was plainly a definitive Humanist.  

Oh, guess what, *J*U*L*I*A* is a Humanist too.
  

TalkTurkey

October 24. 2012 12:49 PM

TalkTurkey

Sorry MariAn.

TalkTurkey

October 24. 2012 01:21 PM

Jason

jane,
    I didn't take it as a criticism,I'm just sick of her antics as well.
Sorry it came across that way!

Jason

October 24. 2012 01:25 PM

LadyInRed

If she wants to take offence of course I'm sorry about that. And if she would like me to say sorry, I'm sorry

The man has absolutely no respect for this Prime Minister - it shows every day in every way.

Here TAbbott is using she inappropriately......again.

And what a pathetic way to retract something.

LadyInRed

October 24. 2012 01:27 PM

LadyInRed

Thanks Jane for the fix...that does sound more accurate.

LadyInRed

October 24. 2012 01:32 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Marilyn is at least willing to call the government and Gillard on its dishonesty in asylum seeker policy.

Others here excuse in this government what they condemned in the Howard government.

That’s known as hypocrisy.

Tom of Melbourne

October 24. 2012 01:36 PM

LadyInRed

Later, on radio, Mr Abbott sought to do so, insisting he was not thinking of the PM. ''I was thinking of my own personal experience,'' he said. ''We had Louise and we had Frances about 15 months later, and we had to spend several hundreds of dollars buying a double pram.'' If Ms Gillard ''wants to take offence, of course I'm sorry about that, and if she would like me to say sorry, I'm sorry'', he said.



Even Grattan baulked at his use of she note that Grattan has edited his comment to sound less offensive and replaced the she with Ms Gillard. Always helping him out .....but it wont work Michelle we know what we know.

LadyInRed

October 24. 2012 01:44 PM

LadyInRed

ToM you really are the most irritating person, just as many 'others' have said neither side looks good on this issue. But you ignore those comments and sieze on anything that will allow you to rant and rave. I feel sorry for you, you obviously want to connect with people but have a skewed idea of what engaging with people in a constructive manner means. After you write your little rants what goes on in your head? What sort of emotions does it stir up in you? I'm interested in trying to understand what motivates a person to be so unpleasant? Do you go through life trying to badger everyone or is it just something you like to do anonymously?

LadyInRed

October 24. 2012 01:46 PM

Jason

ToM,
   I'm not complaing about that, if she wants to have a go at the government that's her right! What I object to is being called "a fucking moron " every time she comes on here becuse we might disagree.
Surely your not tempting me to address you like that every time we might disagree?

Jason

October 24. 2012 01:46 PM

42 long

  Nice to be helped out like that. Pity people have so little regardt for the TRUTH. Lies and distortion. Don't report the news MAKE the news. Conspiracy really.

42 long

October 24. 2012 02:04 PM

Ad astra reply

Hi Lyn
What an interesting collection of Links and Twitterverse.  None of it gives Abbott any joy.  His remark yesterday is reverberating around the world already, even in The Guardian.  Nobody believes his ‘denial’ or gives any credence to his ‘apology’.  Is he really so stupid that he continues to allow his careless mouth to get him into more trouble?  ‘Foot in mouth’ afflicts him chronically, and yet he wants to be PM.

Moreover, he seems to be getting nowhere with his ‘turn back the boats’ nonsense.

The Ray Hadley episode this morning was appalling.  It shows the depth to which the media is prepared to sink in pursuit of Craig Thomson.  

Unsurprisingly, Abbott and Coalition members have joined the media in its own disgraceful way.

Your links this morning gave me still more grist to my writing mill.  I have now finished The MSM is dangerously shortchanging us, that I will post tomorrow afternoon.

Ad astra reply

October 24. 2012 02:18 PM

DMW

Dogs barking at the Moon again?

www.crikey.com.au/.../

First Dog on the Moon is barking well

DMW

October 24. 2012 02:35 PM

MWS

Will there be an investigation into how the press knew in advance that the Police were visiting Craig Thomson?  Hypothetically, "tipping off" the press runs the risk of an alleged offender disposing of evidence before the Police arrive.

It is particularly egregious in the Thomson case, because so many press members knew - and there is a high probability that this information will "leak" to those who the Police would rather not know.  Other than the Police, who else knew when the raid was to occur, and who would be motivated to inform the press in advance?

I'm reminded of the earlier raid on the HSU offices, and Wixxyleaks pointed out in that case Kathy Jackson visited the HSU offices the previous day to the raid and took photos of HSU staff members.  As the HSU office is in a building with many other tenants, how else were the press to know who to accost?

Are the press and the Police too close, as the Leveson inquiry has showed in Britain?  

Why do the press miss the REAL story, yet again?

MWS

October 24. 2012 02:38 PM

pappinbarra fox

Talk Turkey, ZPG!
Mass extinctions are happening at a rate faster than durign the Jurassic period. In my humble view the causes of mass extinction pose a far greater threat to the health of the planet than global warming. There I said it. Note that extinction is both a symptom and a cause at the same time. It is a symptom of meta-stasis and global systems reversals. For example desertification now exceeding the emergence of arable land, potable water replenishment less than consumption (see the Troppo Blog site discussion on how many times has water we drink been piss) natural vegetation clearing exceeding bush regeneration and on it goes. And the incontrovertible main cause? People. So all the Marylins in the world will not solve this problem and moving people around will not solve this problem. I am not even sure that ZPG will now solve this problem. What I expect will happen is that famine and pestilence will do the job. Not that I am pessimistic about this. But relying on screechers to come up with a solution is just plain illogical.

pappinbarra fox

October 24. 2012 02:41 PM

pappinbarra fox

I heard the PM remark and the question that it was a response to. She did not ask for an apology - just another LOTTO ploy to imply that the PM cannot take it. Indeed she basically gave a "no comment" reply. Worked for me I must say.

pappinbarra fox

October 24. 2012 03:14 PM

Patriciawa

Thanks, TT, as so often happens you have said for me what I have found it difficult to say in response to writers like Marian Dalton, whose apparently humane and reasonable articles support the case of asylum seekers against that of the current government, or probably any elected government it seems.  

The personally abusive approach of Marilyn wins no friends for asylum seekers and is easy to ignore.  The moralistic tear jerking of Senator Sarah Hanson Young likewise, though I think the Greens might be well advised not to ignore her and her capacity for losing them friends generally.  Bob Brown's departure may be a factor in their recent polling decline, but having her step into any vacuum created by it with her adolescent emotionalism is another huge negative for them.

After another read of Marian's post above and those comments directly relevant to it and given the 'context'(!) of government policy after the Houston report if pressed to comment I would have said that I'm on the same page as Gravel and Janice.

But now that I've seen your input, Talk Turkey, I have to say that my reluctance to comment is because, deaths at sea aside, I do think we have a responsibility to show that control of population numbers is vital for humanity's survival.   Australia's geographical locations gives us a unique opportunity to think through 'strategies' for this which are not racist or fascist but rational and humane.   We need to look at border control, both on our coastlines and at airports, as just one factor in developing those strategies.

Today asylum seekers are indeed being punished for no apparent crime.  It's time we began to grapple with the real problem they are unwittingly caught up in - the global population explosion and how to deal with it without a Malthusian catastrophe.  (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusian_catastrophe)

Patriciawa

October 24. 2012 04:11 PM

paul walter

Tend to think there is merit in Pat WA's take.
Was reading it might take as little  as $ 50 billion to sort out the world's immediate starvation problems which is a similar figure to that required for basic water supply.
Roughly what is spent on defence in a fortnight across the world. Say a month for updated figures.
Am a sustainable pop growth advocate myself and have hoped for years that an environmentally sound government rather than neo-liberal one might take the reins of government so that issues of soil, water, fisheries etc management etc could be assessed and sorted on the basis of sustainability and use rather than exchange value.
Knowing that the underlying mechanism for efficient and long term survival was being properly managed would have made it so much easier to cheer on a bit of extra  pop growth.
But it's not been forthcoming and the advocates themselves have remained deafeningly silent when persistently questioned as to how how added population should be handled.
If trying to be reflective and constructive on these things makes me a "moron",of course, so be it.

paul walter

October 24. 2012 04:16 PM

Michael

Notice how the official edict seems to be to call carbon pricing "the carbon tax" on ABC News Online and TV?







You'd think... Nah, couldn't be. Coalition scripting the taxpayers' national broadcaster. Great Scott, who'd do that?

Michael

October 24. 2012 04:58 PM

NormanK

This is an absolute must-watch. Kieran Gilbert on Sky News interviewing Chris McArdle, the lawyer representing Craig Thomson. What I wouldn't give for more of this calling out of Abbott; the gossip media and trial by media that has overtaken our society.

Abbott should show evidence or "shut his mouth"
www.youtube.com/watch

NormanK

October 24. 2012 05:16 PM

paul walter

No,Norman K. The LAST thing you must do when you are running a cowardly smear campaign is produce evidence, because it gives the game away.
The last time they produced "evidence" in the Thompson case (as with so many other issues) it blew up in their faces.
Abbott's real phobia relates to policy.
Sequentially and deeply humiliated by the PM ( a woman) and Yuhuhonyo (an Asian) and in dire trepidation of the mental effort required to develop policy, he is left with a dead horse to flog, since this is all his pitiful excuse for a mind is capable of.

paul walter

October 24. 2012 05:23 PM

LadyInRed

Patricawa I am not sure that assylum seekers are a result of over population, or have been unwittingly caught up in a global population explosion. Some (even many) may be economic refugees but I am not sure that people are fleeing Pakistan, Afganistan etc. because of population pressures? I don't argue we face population pressures, but I do think most people would prefer to stay in their places of origin if the conditions in that place were safe and they had the ability to feed, educate and generally bring their families up with dignity and without fear of persecution and war. I do understand that there are many millions of people in refugee camps around the world who have been there for generations and as such become forgotten and really have no hope of resettlement. But I have just come from Seoul and they have 20 million people living in a single city, and it works, it may not be how we would want to live but the point is they live and work together and it works because they have food, safety, water, education, transport, technology and all the things that a modern world requires. Also, they are secular, most are not religious. Is it sustainable? I think it is, but it requires a lot of social cohesion and organisation.

I think the best way to control population is to educate and encourage the empowerment of woman in the countries people are fleeing. Controlling our own boarders will not stop the tide. I put myself in the shoes of an assylum seeker and I do believe I would do anything it took to secure a new future, particularly if I were educated and I had the money.

I do think our geographic location gives us the unique ability to not only control our boarders but also to close our eyes and our hearts.

I think Australia has taken a too harsh stand on this issue. Really the miserable amount of people we take in as refugees doesn't cut the mustard as far as I am concerned. Basically we are afraid of people from the middle east, we are ignorant and fearful. I don't know how we address this.

LadyInRed

October 24. 2012 05:31 PM

KHTAGH

TT
You have a good memory mate, I'm just waiting, biding my time for the day we hear, humans have just wiped out a keystone species.

  That will be bees first up, there is a theory that we have 4-5 yrs after the disappearance of bees & we vanish too, or at least what I hope for RPD radical population decrease no bees no fruit period! or most of our vegies, man can't live on cereal crops alone . It is not a matter of if but when! .

  For those of us with the longevity, 20 yrs will see what's going to happen & it ain't gunna be pretty, how will Marlyn handle people dieing by the 10's of millions? That will be the result.

KHTAGH

October 24. 2012 06:08 PM

paul walter

Lady in Red, are you sure University ecologists or the CSIRO would  necessarily subscribe to your theory that unease about environment and population rise is exclusively to be ascribed to some form of ethnic prejudice, rather than a rational concern as to optimum management of resources?
At least, this is what I think you appear to be saying; if so you could be in contempt prior to investigation and short of adequate information therefore in unthinkingly dismissing rational issue raising as "racism", blanket.
Am not saying this is so, of course. KHTAG's doomsday scenario may indeed be too pessimistic.
But shouldn't we have an idea of the truth BEFORE rather than AFTER, so to speak?

paul walter

October 24. 2012 06:10 PM

Casablanca

Michael,

That seemly deliberate perverse use of the opposition' preferred term 'carbon tax' always irks but it really got up my nose today on Afternoon Live ABC24 when Nick Grimm interviewed a very senior representative from the Australian Energy Retailers who said in a number of answers that the 'carbon price' has little effect on the hugh increases in electricity bills. Then Grimm would come back with another question and call it a carbon tax.

I think that we need to complain to Media Watch and ABC Management and to each ABC reporter who carelessly calls it a carbon tax.

Casablanca

October 24. 2012 06:57 PM

jaycee

"Kafkan novel"...oh that is good!...case dismissed!...should be "shrouded" in mystery, that 'Kafkan' novel!

jaycee

October 24. 2012 06:57 PM

42 long

KPMG called it a "PRICE", in an official document under their name. I think they would know about these things.
  "Opinion shapers" don't care about CARE in choosing words for accuracy. That is not their stock in trade. Effect and results are what they  are after.
  The first police raid on the HSU was staged. Who knew about this latest effort to let channel 7 know?. This whole Thomson thing STINKS. Too many fingers in the pie.
   IF it looks like a set-up. reads like a set up. Is handled by some is if it is a perfectly clear case. (set-up.) (ie has ALL the necessary ingredients). Then it probably IS one.

42 long

October 24. 2012 07:17 PM

2353

Geez - I hope if I ever get into trouble I'm rich enough to afford the services of Chris McArdle.  The interviewer had nowhere to go.  On the current timeline - it should all start to unravel about the time of the next election and it will be fun to watch I suspect.  McArdle seemed to be choosing his words carefully to avoid using evidence he intends to produce in court.

Refugees arriving by boat in my opinion is solely due to instability, victimisation or discrimination in their home countries.  It's a sad reflection on the world where disputes still get so far out of hand that people believe that leaving their country using "irregular" means is the only option.  Overpopulation is another issue entirely (although the effects are also real).

2353

October 24. 2012 07:18 PM

LadyInRed

Paul - I am not saying that, sorry if it sounded like I was. I am saying that people fleeing countries and trying to get to Australia has nothing to do with overpopulation. They are generally trying to flee from war and/or persecution or they are economic refugees.

I also think that our current policy on assylum seekers is largely being driven by fear and ignorance in the population.

LadyInRed

October 24. 2012 07:26 PM

LadyInRed

Further - it is wrong to point the finger at just the polititions, when the problem lies with all of us. I am not suggesting we all go around and 'do a Marilyn' however, looking at our own predjudices is a good start. I admit to having to battle with my fears and looking at myself and saying what do I really want done in my name? How do I really want polititions to handle refugees? I believe one way is to really look at the number of refugees we do actually take, it seems a fairly small number compared to other countries in the region. I know that we have incleased it but could we increase it even more? I think we could but I think fear and ignorance is keeping the number very conservative so as not to scare the electorate. So are we really doing enough? We sure spend a lot of money trying to keep them out.

LadyInRed

October 24. 2012 08:00 PM

Patriciawa

LadyInRed, sorry if I gave the impression I thought the current crop of asylum seekers were caused by the population explosion.  It's more complex than that.  I see them as 'unwittingly caught up' in the problem of an impending population explosion.  I also see Australia as uniquely placed to begin an honest search for strategies to deal with that.   I am therefore reluctant to comment on the ethics of the asylum seeker issue because I probably think that it's secondary to the population control issue;  a thought which is morally challenging and why I welcomed Talk Turkey's contribution this morning.  

Patriciawa

October 24. 2012 08:15 PM

jaycee

Who knew about the thomson raid?...I believe Ms. Jackson's "live-in' has a brother with high police connections in NSW.

jaycee

October 24. 2012 08:17 PM

Ad astra reply

Folks
After a stint of heavy duty mowing of long grass, I'm calling it a day.

Ad astra reply

October 24. 2012 08:19 PM

2353

jaycee - when the NSW Police state that no one is authorised to "tip off" anyone about Police actions and the ABC Queensland News tonight stated that the media was tipped off by the NSW Police, there is a issue that even O'Farrell can't cover up.

2353

October 24. 2012 08:24 PM

Gravel

NormanK

Thanks for that link.  I am so please Craig Thomson has someone like him in his corner.  I get the impression he is onto the Noppositions set up of Craig.  I hope it goes well for him.

Knee High

Oh, but I don't want a hot summer, I hate long hot summers.  :-(  Can you tell the bees to make it go away please. Smile

Gravel

October 24. 2012 09:05 PM

Jason

ToM,
   Lucky you're as gutless as you are! or your miserable name would be there with Kroger!

   Abbott accuser to sue Liberal Party powerbroker

BARBARA RAMJAN, the woman who accused Tony Abbott of intimidating her physically at Sydney University, is suing the Victorian Liberal Party powerbroker, Michael Kroger, and The Australian newspaper, over comments during the recent fallout from the saga.

Read more: www.smh.com.au/.../...erbroker-20121024-285xc.html

Jason

October 24. 2012 09:21 PM

jaycee

Anyway..Why would the police take Thomson's hard-drive?...the alleged offences happened years ago!...even I have gone through several computers since then!(burnouts and the like).

jaycee

October 24. 2012 09:33 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Lady In Red, I have no objective of “connecting with people” at TPS. It doesn’t bother me whether or not people reply to my comments. That’s a matter for any individual.

I simply find it interesting to observe the sanguine perspective towards this government as they apply a policy on asylum seekers  policy far more severe and inhumane than that which was so vehemently condemned in the previous government.

Right now contributors here are trying every vacillation and excuse to avoid addressing the duplicity and hypocrisy of the ALP.  For example they lamely and without logic blame overseas population for our shunning asylum seekers.

It’s quite bizarre, and I’ll continue to point this out.  If others don’t feel like replying, that’s fine with me.

Tom of Melbourne

October 24. 2012 11:32 PM

TalkTurkey

When Hitler annexed Austria, and then invaded Poland, the excuse he used was that the German people needed more liebensraum (living room). I don't know what world populations were then, but I doubt whether there were more than two billions. Already much of the world's resources were being exploited.

Rats kept in crowdwd situations become hyperaggressive and will fight to the death. Sure we're not rats, well not the four-legged kind anyway, but I reckon I can relate. I hate crowds.

But it's not just the crowding, it's the overuse of resources.

KHTAGH is right: but not tens of millions, billions will die of starvation thirst and exposure in the next few decades. Simple as that. (You do all know that don't you?)  

No talk of queues will prevent people fleeing by whatever means they can from situations such as the Tamils found themselves in in Sri Lanka. Nothing short of torpedoes will stop the boats.

I hope that people in Australia at least will try to stop rushing like lemmings to the overpopulation abyss. But at the moment we are racing towards it faster than anywhere, because of our deliberate immigration program, and such religions as Catholicism encouraging maximum breeding. Mercifully for me, I am childless and in my mature years, but if you parents and grandparents of youngers want them to have any sort of future may I suggest you think hard on how to limit population growth here at least. If they were puppies or kittens you had bred, you would be thinking about finding decent situations for them.

As for asylum seekers in boats, well I think there is obviously better reason to surmise that they need a new start than the relatively-well-off people migrating here in aircraft. I don't know that that ovbservation is anything but unhelpful, but there you are.

I am being not supremacist but scientific when I make the point that in terms of its ability to support humans, Australia is already ecologically far beyond sustainable.

STOP THE POP!ulation growth. That's what I think.

  



TalkTurkey

October 24. 2012 11:44 PM

TalkTurkey

Craig and Mrs Thomson be brave. Let not the slavering hyaenas of the MSM make you feel despicable, it is they who are, and the political enemies of the Government who seek to bring it down by hounding you.  

The sun will shine again for you Comrade Craig.
Many of us honour you. I look forward to your long and honourable career in national politics. I do hope it can work out like that for you.      

TalkTurkey

October 24. 2012 11:48 PM

jane

TT @12.47pm, heartily agree wrt ZPG. It's well past populate or perish time. I think the PM and others who chose not to have ankle biters should have medals awarded for doing their bit for the planet.

It's not like we're running out of people. Less is more wrt human population, I say.

We had Louise and we had Frances about 15 months later, and we had to spend several hundreds of dollars buying a double pram.

I call bovine excrement, Mr Abbott! Spending a fortune on a double pram is a lifestyle choice, not a necessity.

pappinbarra fox @2.38pm, spot on! At 7bn and rapidly rising, I think rampant and unchecked human population growth is the greatest threat to the planet atm.

paul walter @4.11pm, now we just have to persuade the military spenders that this money would be far better spent providing food and water to the billions of people who don't have enough of either to survive.  

I do think most people would prefer to stay in their places of origin if the conditions in that place were safe and they had the ability to feed, educate and generally bring their families up with dignity and without fear of persecution and war.

I've also argued that point with various rabid anti-refugee types. People will rarely uproot themselves from all that is familiar if they are safe and secure and able to provide for themselves and their families.

jane

October 25. 2012 06:31 AM

Marilyn

Those who are fucking morons deserve to be called fucking morons because they spew out the same drivel day in and day out.

The fact of law is that there is a refugee convention which has 34 legally binding provisions that simply cannot be thrown in the bin without the permission of the UNHCR governing body of which we are just one of 87 members.

I suggest people read it and find the words

border security
queue
waiting
don't come on boats to Australia or
Australia has special needs because they have far less refugees than most other nations.

Marilyn

October 25. 2012 07:54 AM

Lyn

TODAY’S LINKS


Sorry Tony Sexism is not a least possible excuse, Amy Stockwell, Mamamia
Silly stuff, but of course, Mr Abbott’s comments aren’t really about the mid-year review. They are not even really about the Prime Minister. They are about the Leader of the Opposition himself.These comments are about a man who is desperate to paint himself as a modern man, a hands-on dad and a gentle, sensitive fellow. He’s someone who knows about double prams. He’s not someone who punches walls
www.mamamia.com.au/.../

Corinnes rage index  rising, Corinne Grant, The Hoopla
Here’s the thing: Abbott gets off on this stuff. He’s trying to get a rise out of us. He’s like that really annoying kid in primary school who gets whacked for being a dickhead and then does the exact same thing again because he’s just realised how much he likes the whacking.
thehoopla.com.au/corinnes-rage-index-rising/

Context Shmontext, Dan Gulbery, The Daily Derp
With independent media outlets (the 5th Estate), such as David Donovan’s Independent Australia, Ad Astra’s The Political Sword, Andrew Elder’s Politically Homeless and Greg Jericho’s Grog’s Gamut providing more insightful analysis of current events than the 4E can, surely they would realise that inspired amateurs are breathing down their necks. thedailyderp.net/2012/10/24/context-shmontext/

Isobel Redmond: victorious or not?, Independent Australia
Redmond won yesterday, as she is by far the biggest asset the ALP has in South Australia, being the most unpredictably damaging leader the Liberals could possibly have chosen. They are apparently busy printing leaflets, flyers, mailouts and all this will come out when the Libs are too close to the election to get rid of her and change leader — in the last 4 months.
www.independentaustralia.net/.../

The Speech Heard Around the World, Karen Pickering, New Matilda
Recognition of the look in her eye when she finally stood up to a bully that had dogged her for years with his snide remarks and dog-whistle politics. Recognition of Gillard’s superlative skills and the incredible toughness that must be required to put up with this abuse day in, day out, all while holding a position of authority over her tormentors.
newmatilda.com/.../speech-heard-around-world

Craig Thomson’s home raid and what it means for Labor, Andrew Crook, Crikey
The road from the raid to a premature Tony Abbott government is a long and torturous one, and almost certainly won’t be resolved before the next federal election. It requires the opposition to jump through at least five flaming hoops.
www.crikey.com.au/.../

Every Breath You Take, Peter Wicks, Wixxy Leaks
Today’s raid on Craig Thomson’s property was about one person, Craig. Not his wife Zoe, she is what I would refer to as an innocent bystander. She would be under incredible stress, and would be hoping for some privacy.
wixxyleaks.com/2012/10/24/every-breath-you-take/

What is the connection between Police dawn raids on Craig Thomson and the Media presence? Turn Left 2013
Craig Thomson has NOT been charged with anything. Allegations from Tony Abbott and the Murdoch media and Mark Scott’s ABC – and that is all they are, allegations – does not make some guilty. We do not have Trial By Media in this country yet, though, some manager directors of news organisations and editors would seem to think
turnleft2013.wordpress.com/.../

Neo-liberalism + the "free market" , Gary Sauer-Thompson, Public Opinion
The Big wilderness's veto on development column by Nick Cater in The Australian spells out the conservative's imaginary that lies underneath, and supports, the myth of the real Australia being usurped by the election of Gillard and The Greens. The myth holds that the real Australia will soon be restored. Hence their obsession with Gillard.
www.sauer-thompson.com/.../neoliberalism-t.php

Budget redistributes income over life cycle, Ross Gittins
what strange things budgets are. The government spends all this money - hundreds of billions a year - but where does it come from? From us, of course. The politicians use the budget to take money from us with one hand, then give it back with the other.
www.rossgittins.com/.../...s-income-over-life.html

The politics of returning to surplus, Greg Jericho, The Drum
Monday's release of the Mid-Year Economic and Fiscal Outlook (MYEFO) kept the path to surplus very much at the top of the Government's priorities despite our small deficit and debt being the envy of pretty much the rest of the world.
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4329726.html

0.4 percent of a wrecking ball makes …, John Quiggin
the Australian political right has trashed its intellectual credibility, embraced lurid conspiracy theories, reduced its leading publications to laughing stocks, and promulgated a string of easily falsified talking points, each one more absurd than the last. So, now that their predictions of doom have come to this,
http://johnquiggin.com/

Coalition's NBN alternative an expensive dead end: Graeme Samuel , Supratim Adhikari, Technology Spectator
Mr Samuel, who now works for Greenhill Caliburn, has told The Australian Financial Review that the Coalition's NBN alternative was obsolete and would cost a lot more than what has been suggested by the shadow communications minister Malcolm Turnbull According to Mr Samuel, the Gillard government's $34.7 billion national broadband network (NBN) uses a better approach
technologyspectator.com.au/coalitions-nbn-alternative-expensive-dead-end-graeme-samuel

NBN Revenues Provide Interesting Calculations, Michael Wyers
Nine million premises, at $288.00 per premise gives a revenue flow of $2.52 billion.Not bad for a “white elephant” that will never pay for itself! It should also be pointed out that NBN Co didn’t start charging ISPs until October 2011.
michaelwyres.com/.../

Australian Opposition leader in hot water again for sexist comments, Emily Senger, Macleans  Canada
Though Opposition members are now complaining that they have to walk on eggshells, lest they offend the prime minister, Gillard has something to smile about. The Australian reports that a new poll shows Gillard’s popularity has risen 10 points over Abbott in the wake of her misogyny speech.
www2.macleans.ca/.../

Today’s Front Pages
Australia Newspaper Front Pages for 25 October 2012
www.frontpagestoday.co.uk/index.cfm

Lyn

October 25. 2012 08:00 AM

Lyn


Good Morning Ad

Somehow this link to Frank's blog wanted to enter itself 4 times in the comments box, so now I had to post on it's own.

When David Met Goliath – An AFV EXCLUSIVE !!!!!!!!!!!!, A Frank View
Gusface was so upset by how the media were made aware and whether they were tipped off by persons either in the NSW Police or by the NSW Attorney-General that he Confronted the media and said the following: Who forewarned them- why they were here and kept asking who told em? One member from the ABC squeaked he was rung at 8am.
http://afrankview.net/

Lyn

October 25. 2012 08:51 AM

Ad astra

LYN'S DAILY LINKS updated: www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...-DAILY-LINKS.aspx

Hi Lyn
I've fixed the troublesome link.

Ad astra

October 25. 2012 08:57 AM

jaycee

Marilyn..While I don't doubt your sincerity in regard the refugee situation, the shrill, excited tones which you demand to be heard remind me of a bloke I knew back in the late seventies...A wild, pot-smoking lad who travelled the hippie route through Afghanistan to Europe. He told me of a Mujahadeen fighter he met in some hostellery in Pakistan and got chatty with him. The young fighter one day told him he was going back to the front soon..My Friend, being somewhat idealistic proposed that he accompany him to fight alongside his new friend...The Mujahadeen, not missing a beat in eating his meal simply and calmly said  "No"..when asked why, he replied.."You smoke dope, so would not be stable...and I suspect if we got into a fire-fight the first person I would have to shoot, for my own safety, would be yourself"...
Marilyn...If I was a refugee, while I would not mind having someone like yourself supporting the cause, I would not like you too close....If you get my drift.
So please..I sympathise...we all do..but take it easy, if not for us, then at least for yourself..after all..Rome was not built in a day!

jaycee

October 25. 2012 09:06 AM

Lyn

Thankyou Ad Astra.

Lyn

October 25. 2012 10:05 AM

Tom of Melbourne

Can anyone imagine the ridicule that would have been directed to a Howard supporter if they had argued for strong border security on the basis of world population control?!!

I mean we got the endless replays of his comment that “we’ll decide who comes here…”, if he’d added “and this will set an example of population control to the rest of the world”, he would have been laughed out of office and well, as kicked out.

If any conservative posed this proposition as an excuse for cruel treatment of asylum seekers, they would be treated with well-deserved contempt.

But here at TPS, there are those ALP barrackers who are so focussed on avoiding reflecting on the government that they will look for any excuse, including ones that are truly bizarre.

It’s hilarious.

Tom of Melbourne

October 25. 2012 10:25 AM

LadyInRed

ToM the problem with assylum seekers is of our own making. Us, we the electorate. It would appear if you want to be elected in country at this time in history then you have to be seen to be tough on assylum seekers. So if you want to throw stones then you need to throw them at both sides, and at yourself and the whole of the electorate. The problem with you is that you appear to be a person who doesn't vote but wants to have a say. I repeat what I have said before if you don't vote in a country where it is compulsory to vote then you don't really get to have a say on whether the government we elected is hypocrytical or not. That is my point of view.

I dissagree that you do not want to connect with people. No-one writes on a blog who does not want to connect, whether adversarily or not. Once again please do not insult my intelligence. I note that you never answer any come backs where you have been caught out mincing the figures or distorting the facts.

LadyInRed

October 25. 2012 10:29 AM

pappinbarra fox

The question of refugees and ZPG are not really connected. But TT raised the ZPG issue and that thread was picked up and followed. The point is that island biogeography is an excellent place to start in examining what is happening in terms of carrying capacity and when that is exceeded. For example Misima (an island in Milne Bay Province)currently has a human population exponential increase of 20 years! It has about 16,000 people on the island now. 20 years ago there were 8,000 and 20 years before that 4,000. Back in the mists of time cultural mores and agriculural practices evolved with a manageable population. So garden sites were cleared every 7 years used once then left fallow till the next clearing. Now garden sites are re-used every 3 years. The soil cannot handle the more intensive use - does  not have sufficient time to replenish nutrients so crop yields are not as good, pest resistance is not as viable and so on. Use of insecticides or fertilisers is beyond the economy of subsistence farmers. Australia is in a similar situation. In 200 years we have lost 50% of our topsoil. It has been estimated that the natural carrying cappacity is around 12million. Because we are a rich country we can afford fertiliser and pesticide so we produce food to feed around 60 million - at the moment. But this is not really sustainable. We certainly cannot carry that many people - there are other limiting factors - potable water being a key one. So the currentl policies of high immigration just do not make sense - this has little to do with refugees and everything to do with having policies that are not connected to ecosystem outcomes.

pappinbarra fox

October 25. 2012 10:41 AM

NormanK

Good morning Lyn,

Thank-you for all of your hard work. It is much appreciated.

NormanK

October 25. 2012 10:50 AM

KHTAGH

ladyinred

I repeat what I have said before if you don't vote in a country where it is compulsory to vote then you don't really get to have a say on whether the government we elected is hypocrytical or not. That is my point of view.

So very true, & the reason I don't pollute my vision with his writing/ranting at all these days. I just scroll when I see that insipid green or purple face, reminds me of the worse case of sea sickness I ever witnessed first hand, honesty he was that colour, I thought the term green with sea sickness was just a saying until that day, it is true.

KHTAGH

October 25. 2012 11:10 AM

Lyn

Good Morning NormanK

You are always so nice, thankyou back to you.

SmileSmile

Lyn

October 25. 2012 11:24 AM

paul walter

Marilyn, major tactical mistake: the foul language could be alienating sympathisers.
Each F word could mean another delay or worse for refugees. It will rob you of the support you need to present your case, if you truly believe in the welfare of asylum seekers.
Rethink, please...

paul walter

October 25. 2012 11:37 AM

Lyn

Hi Ad and Everybody

Twitterverse for you all:-

Bushfire Bill
Posted Thursday, October 25, 2012 at 10:47 am
News Ltd at least is Murdoch’s personal plaything. He can do what he wants with it because he’s stacked the voting at Head Office to make sure no-one can challenge him successfully.But Fairfax is supposed to be a proper company, run by a responsible board, out to make a profit for its shareholders. Fairfax has no excuse for shitting in its own nest. The shareholders are angry and so should the Australian people be equally angry
blogs.crikey.com.au/.../#comment-1452452

Bushfire Bill
Posted Thursday, October 25, 2012 at 10:15 am
The mind boggles as to why he thought he could get away with the WA electricity bill that showed a doubling of usage resulted in a doubling of the bill!
He tried to say it was all the Carbon Tax. It’s so dumb that he either:

1. Didn’t check his facts.

2. Was set up to be a laughing stock.

3. Believed the media would just let it through.


blogs.crikey.com.au/.../#comment-1452428

Chris Johnson‏
A leak within police ranks tipped off Sydney's media vigilantes to a raid on Mr Thomson's home? www.vicpolicenews.com.au/.../...-in-nsw-today.html … Surely an inquiry?

Jonathan Green‏
So when the mining tax was expected to make money it was an onerous imposition, now that it isn't, it's an incompetent flop. Flexibility!

Impact of carbon tax lower than predicted, Peter Martin
THE carbon tax has boosted the cost of living scarcely at all. Despite dire talk of an "almost unimaginable" increase (Tony Abbott) and $100 for a Sunday roast (Barnaby Joyce) the first official consumer price figures show a far lower impact than predicted by the Treasury.
www.smh.com.au/.../...redicted-20121024-285us.html
Tow Back Geek

Father Abbott refuses to say sorry, Phillip Coorey
www.smh.com.au/.../...ay-sorry-20121024-285w7.html

Abbott accuser to sue Liberal Party powerbroker, Video,  SMH
BARBARA RAMJAN, the woman who accused Tony Abbott of intimidating her physically at Sydney University, is suing the Victorian Liberal Party powerbroker, Michael Kroger, and The Australian newspaper, over comments during the recent fallout from the saga.
: www.smh.com.au/.../...erbroker-20121024-285xc.html

chris murphy‏
I broke MsRamjan story .I've kept you ahead of MSM.Now SMH catches up.NewsLtd silent?They are Defendants. #auspol www.smh.com.au/.../...erbroker-20121024-285xc.html

Craig Thomson's lawyers says Tony Abbott should end the innuendo after police raids
CRAIG Thomson's lawyer has told Tony Abbott to "shut his mouth" after the Opposition Leader commented on the police raids on the house and electoral office of the member for Dobell.
www.heraldsun.com.au/.../story-e6frf7jo-1226502027526

Thomson lawyer slams Abbott 'innuendo', Michelle Grattan
CRAIG Thomson's lawyer, Chris McArdle, has lashed out at Tony Abbott, challenging him to produce evidence if he is making allegations of criminal wrongdoing by the MP or ''shut his mouth''.
www.theage.com.au/.../...uendo-20121024-285x5.html

Jeremy de Korte‏
State Lib gov dominos will start falling soon. Starting with #Faillieu in Vic. #springst #auspol #1termted #libspill m.theage.com.au/.../...l-shows-20121025-286jv.html

One-term wonder: Baillieu would be swept from power, poll shows
www.theage.com.au/.../...shows-20121025-286jv.html

Steve Thompson‏
Abbott won't axe carbon tax, Combet says | Herald Sun www.heraldsun.com.au/.../story-e6frf7kf-1226502354273

scarystate‏
Didn't LNP mention bringing down the crime rate as election promise? not going so well hey Campbell!?www.couriermail.com.au/.../story-e6freoof-1226502215840 … via @couriermail

Steve Thompson‏
Clueless or calculated? Abbott's foot-in-mouth problem - The Drum - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) www.abc.net.au/.../4331806

Australian News‏
Mining tax not worth a cent: reports: The federal government says its planned surplus is not un... http://bit.ly/VFFaXq #ausnews #uavaus

Leroy‏
The incredible shrinking man - Hear that, Alan? That's the sound of your influence falling away www.smh.com.au/.../...king-man-20121024-284j4.html … #ausmedia

GistMe‏
JoeHockey C'mon Joe! Are YOU happy with these gimmicks from your side? I always thought you better than that. news.ninemsn.com.au/.../release-law-firm-gillard-interview-abetz … #auspol

SmileSmileSmileSmile

Lyn

October 25. 2012 11:58 AM

paul walter

Re Thomson, even Grattan admits it's "innuendo"?
If it isnt fear and smear Abbott doesn't understand it.

paul walter

October 25. 2012 12:25 PM

Wake Up

I have lost count of the number of times both Marilyn and Tom have been respectfully advised to pick up their game in order to be taken seriously. I have also lost count of the number of times that respectful and intelligent engagements have been entered into with Marilyn and Tom only to end in personal insults.

What don't you fine contributors at TPS get ???

No amount of engagement, rational argument, intelligent banter or respectful advice HAS EVER or WILL EVER change their behaviour.

Why, because that is the game for these people who are commonly referred to as Trolls, they just keep poking away until they get a reaction and as soon as they do they feel vindicated. They are not interested in what valid points you make, or the facts, or the reasoning and despite their claims to the contrary, they just want attention.

For god's sake, please stop giving them oxygen by acknowledging them, just ignore them and they will find someone else to annoy.

I know that is difficult when they say the most outrageous things and make the most ludicrous claims but just remember if you bite they win.

TPS is an awesome place to hang out, it is rich in intellect and wisdom and provides insight and information not typically forthcoming from the MSM but the constant noise by both Marilyn and Tom is a real chore which is of course the aim of their game.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...............

SCROLL THE TROLL !!!

Wake Up

October 25. 2012 12:30 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Thomson is a grub, and thus far his excuses don’t pass a reasonable person test. The excuses rolled out by his apologists, such as Wicks represent more hilarity in their convoluted conspiracy theories.

And recall when the best argument around was the “look over there at the odd woman who was caught shoplifting!”

The Thomson saga will roll on, as will the “AWU slush fund/fraud”.  Both are examples of the way union affiliation taints decision making and careers in the ALP.

Tom of Melbourne

October 25. 2012 12:38 PM

TalkTurkey

As linked to by Lyn -

Thursday, 25 October, 2012

Victoria Police statement regarding warrants executed in NSW today Wednesday, 24 October 2012 14:42 : -

The safety and security of investigators when executing search warrants is of the utmost importance to Victoria Police.
  
To alert the media of such warrants prior to them being executed, and keeping in mind the privacy of those concerned, is not the practice of Victoria Police.

Detective Superintendent Brett Guerin of Serious Crime Operations stated:

"I share Mr McArdle's outrage at the media's apparent knowledge of these activities this morning. The last thing our detectives need is to be knocking on someone's door with a media scrum watching. It helps no one but the media. Victoria Police is very conscious of the high-profile nature of this investigation and has been resolute(???~TT) in the information they have provided to the media.

I would love to know how the media knew what was happening."
[Emphases mine - TT]
  
Victoria Police
VP14146/2012

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Apart from the imponderable use of 'resolute', I must say I am bemused by that last line.

??? He would love to know ?

Not, I am bloody livid and intend to find out WTF leaked that information! ?

Well,


Detective Superintendent Guerin, of Serious Crime Operations

Dear Sir/Madam,

Do you not consider that tipping off Media is a Serious Crime?

For Media to precede ANY police search is to put at jeopardy the search results, and has the potential to put Police and others' lives at risk. I am sure I need not explain that latter point to you, but instant suicide, hostage-taking and armed siege are all obviously possible resultant scenarios.

Tipping off the Media is VERY SERIOUS.

In the Thomson affair the story breaking as it did is intensely prejudicial to Mr Thomson's reputation, as if the Media's harrying of him had not already done him great harm.

The fact that the whole saga seems obviously a set-up designed to bring down the Gillard Government, and that the Media's dramatic presentations have aided and abetted that effort, makes this a case of extreme seriousness.

I ask you in the interests of justice and truth that you spare no effort in finding who leaked. You are a Detective Superintendent! You have access to ALL necessary information.

Please use it.

(My name is not germane. Nor is it Germaine btw  Smile )



  



TalkTurkey

October 25. 2012 12:40 PM

DMW

Hi LIR
It would appear if you want to be elected in country at this time in history then you have to be seen to be tough on assylum seekers.

Appearances can be deceptive.

When Howard uttered that line:
We will decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come.
he was as much 'whistling' to our inherent fear of invasion by the 'yellow hordes' as he was pointing the bone at asylum seekers.

Given the events of September 11, Howard, in classic salesmen style, emphasised our fears about border security and proposed that he was the only one that could provide the solution. Many people bought it.

Much as Lynton Crosby, then Liberal Party Director, denied whipping up the fear, the Labor Party 'learnt the lesson' that border security and being tough on asylum seekers was an integral part of winning office. This is, in my mind, a classic case of learning the wrong lessons from history and many in the ALP are still living by those wrong learnings.

One exception that probably proved 'the rule' was the late Peter Andren, member for Calare, a very rural seat, who spoke up long and loud against Howard and his actions around the Tampa and was re-elected at the 2001 election with an increased majority.

Interestingly, the rise of Julia Gillard kicked in after the 2001 election when she was promoted to the shadow ministry responsible for population and immigration. I suspect this goes a long way to explaining her attitudes and beliefs on the issue.

So every time another boat comes over the horizon, no matter if it has ten or one hundred and ten asylum seekers aboard for many people the fear of invasion button is pressed. It does not matter that in reality border security and asylum seekers are two separate issues in the hearts and minds of many they are totally intertwined.

To my great disappointment the small hope that a Labor government would take a more humane and nuanced approach has proved wrong. The current leadership is stuck in a game of which side can be the bigger heartless bastards and they are winning it hands down.

DMW

October 25. 2012 01:42 PM

pappinbarra foxette

Scroll on River, scroll on river just keep scrolling along..

pappinbarra foxette

October 25. 2012 01:50 PM

KHTAGH

Very interesting, copied from Crikey RF chunky bits


First Dog's cynical, partisan, When Will Tony Get the Boot Competition. Crikey's own (and only ever) Walkley Award Nominee First Dog on the Moon shocked the Twitterverse earlier today with the bold suggestion that time may soon be up for Mr T Abbott as leader of the federal opposition. Interestingly Niki Savva in the Australian was suggesting the same thing and if that is what they are writing in the Oz now it must be true.

KHTAGH

October 25. 2012 02:13 PM

Ad astra reply

Hi Lyn
I’m still catching up with your Links and Twitterverse, as I’ve been out mowing before the rain comes.  I’ll read you links now.

Re your Twitterverse, BB is again on the money.  I applaud his comment on a previous link that every time Abbott, Hockey and Co verbally trash our economy, consumer and business confidence falls, retail sales and manufacturing suffer, and more small businesses hit the wall.  We know it is self-serving, but cannot they see that it is also gross stupidity.  Why does the MSM not call this out?  They are complicit, and their businesses are suffering – take Fairfax as an example – but they continue echoing the Abbott/Hockey negativities.  Incredible.

The poll accompanying Phil Coorey’s article on Abbott’s reluctance to say sorry for is remark about families, and thereby casting a slur at the childless, was interesting.  Even allowing for sampling errors and the inherent unreliability of such online polls, this one, completed by almost four thousand, has 82% responding ‘Yes’ to the question “Do you support the government's proposal to reduce the baby bonus for the second and subsequent children?” and only 14% saying ‘No’.  So Abbott man has not only added to his sexist image with his remarks, he has backed the wrong horse, as only 14% agree with him that the Government should not have reduced the baby bonus to $3000 for second and subsequent children.  His obsession with criticizing everything the Government says and does is what gets him into these messes.  He has only one tactic – attack – and that is letting him down.

Read more: www.smh.com.au/.../...ay-sorry-20121024-285w7.html

I note too that with the threat of defamation action against anyone who defames Craig Thomson has caused Abbott to retreat and reiterate that Thomson has not been charged, let alone convicted of anything.  Yet Abbott has judged Thomson ‘guilty’, the PM guilty of lack of judgement, and the Government guilty of accepting a ‘tainted vote’, a vote he has acknowledged he would accept if it suited him.

Thomson’s solicitor told Abbott, whom he described as an ageing student politician mouthing off’, to ‘shut his mouth’.  What good advice!

Abbott’s credibility is running thin, even with his own; he needs to lift his game and watch his back.

Abbott is not the only one with a big mouth – I see Barbara Ramjan is suing Michael Kroger for his on-air and published remarks about her.

We live in interesting times.

Ad astra reply

October 25. 2012 02:44 PM

LadyInRed

DMW

I don't think it matters who started the 'tough on assylum seekers'. Both sides have used it disgracefully. Its here now and it would take a more than a minority government to change the current situation. The only hope we have is that Labor can find a way NOT to make this a political issue in the next election. Win the next election, with a clear majoirty, and without making promises to 'stop the boats'. Rather win it on issues that are far more important to the electorate and then bring in a policy that is both humane and one that we can be at least reasonably proud of. And vow never to use this policy again to try to score political points. And that goes for the Greens as well, its all good and well for SHY to go out and beat the government over the head but the Greens are just as culpable as the rest of the parliament when they refused to take on the Malayasia solution, which I believe would have been a darn site better than Nauru or Mannis Island.

Bascially there is a lesson in there for all politicians on all political sides. They are all guilty as far as I am concerned as are we for falling for it like gullible fools. But I believe the public are getting just as sick of this issue as they did with the carbon tax scare. So perhaps the electorate is maturing? Who knows?

LadyInRed

October 25. 2012 02:51 PM

LadyInRed

Ad astra

Abbott really is a fool. He is looking more and more childish and petulant as the days progress, and quite frankly stupid as well. On the one hand I hope he stays as LOTO because I honestly can't see him winning this for the Libs, and on the other if he does .....huhhhhh groan, what a sad and sorry state for this country.

LadyInRed

October 25. 2012 03:01 PM

Ad astra reply

Hi Lyn
I’ve now covered you Today’s Link –absorbing reading.

First, thanks to Dan Gulberry’s for his remarks on The Daily Derp:

”Following the video of Prime Minister Julia Gillard ripping a new one in Tony Abbott, there has been much discussion about the relevance of the Fourth Estate (4E hereafter).

“On last week’s Gruen Planet show, they hit the nail on the head. They said (words to the effect), that since everyone now has access to more information than you can poke a stick at, no-one needs the 4E to tell them what we’ve all just seen or heard. The above tweet from Chris Murphy sums up this idea perfectly.

“In a world where newspapers, TV and radio stations are hemorrhaging money, where the share prices of Fairfax, Ten and Seven are in free fall, one would think that they would be inspired to lift their game. With independent media outlets (the 5th Estate), such as David Donovan’s Independent Australia, Ad Astra’s The Political Sword, Andrew Elder’s Politically Homeless and Greg Jericho’s Grog’s Gamut providing more insightful analysis of current events than the 4E can, surely they would realise that inspired amateurs are breathing down their necks.”


This article was copied form The Daily Derp on 25 October, 2012 at 03:29. You can read the original article here: thedailyderp.net/2012/10/24/context-shmontext/

I thought Ross Gittins’ article was great; who could disagree with his conclusion:

”As well as redistributing income from rich to poor, the budget acts as a giant, multi-faceted mutual support scheme. At some points in your life you're a net contributor, at others a net recipient.

"The system requires those without dependents to subsidise those with, particularly when the little blighters need educating. It requires the well to subsidise the sick. It requires those who work to subsidise those too old to work.

"I think it's a good system, a sign we live in a reasonably caring, civilised society, where those in need get supported by the rest of us.

"It's a reason we should pay our taxes with a lot less grumbling. The pity is, the system's so complex and convoluted it's not until you see a special study such as this that you realise how it works - it's inbuilt fairness and solidarity.

"Something to think about next time you're tempted to justify a demand on government because you've "paid taxes all my life". You've also been benefiting all your life.
”  Indeed!

www.rossgittins.com/.../...s-income-over-life.html

Greg Jericho’s piece is packed full of useful information and logical analysis.

I enjoyed John Quiggin’s piece on the Abbott/Hockey ‘wrecking ball’:

”0.4 percentage points is the estimate of the CPI impact of the carbon price, published in the Herald Sun (hardly likely to understate it). In the attempt to stop this catastrophe, the Australian political right has trashed its intellectual credibility, embraced lurid conspiracy theories, reduced its leading publications to laughing stocks, and promulgated a string of easily falsified talking points, each one more absurd than the last. So, now that their predictions of doom have come to this, what will be their response? My guess is that they will double down – Catallaxy and Andrew Bolt are already on the job."

Peter Martin made similar comments.  Of course ‘lived experience’ will inform voters that the Abbott/Hockey/Joyce predictions of doom were all wrong.  Their credibility will plummet, literally.

I’ll soon post the next piece: The MSM is dangerously shortchanging us.

Ad astra reply

October 25. 2012 03:04 PM

DMW

LIR,
agree it doesn't matter now who started it.

A big part of the challenge as I see it is that separate 'issues' have become coagulated into a gooey morass.

Many people cannot make a distinction between border protection and asylum seekers because of the sales pitch of they are crossing our border illegally.

Add in the myths around AS's being paid twice as much money as pensioners and given free 196inch wide screen TV's and whatever other luxury that suits the story of the day it is a very tangled web.

Things will not change much unless there is a change to more moderate leaders of the major parties. It is highly unlikely that will happen.

DMW

October 25. 2012 03:07 PM

2353

LiR - Agree completely with your post above.  While there is some support within the community for a humane refugee policy, it isn't large enough to get over the hump that minority Government imposes.

Gillard has been (in the words of Sir Humprey) "courageous" in implementing the Carbon Pricing and MRRT schemes in this Parliament and there is probably enough time to bed these down before an election.  

Already the Carbon Pricing scheme is demonstrating that it is not the end of the world and actually producing results.  While there will always be the "stuff the future, I"m ok" types and the conservatives that will claim the sky will fall next week, this article pointing out the Republican's are responsible for placing the US onto the path of Carbon emissions reduction is interesting.

www.independentaustralia.net/.../

2353

October 25. 2012 03:49 PM

Ad astra reply

Folks
I’ve just posted The MSM is dangerously shortchanging us.  Enjoy.

www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...tchanging-us.aspx

Ad astra reply

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