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Do Australian businessmen really believe Tony Abbott?

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Monday, 19 November 2012 19:11 by Ad astra
The attributes needed to run a successful business include intelligence, relevant knowledge, perspicacity, foresight, an eye for opportunity, willingness to take a calculated risk, skill in innovation, perseverance, and guts. Australian businessmen have these in spades. In simple terms, they are smart. Yet from what we as outsiders can see, they seem to be willing to accept the damaging rhetoric about our economy that Tony Abbott, Joe Hockey and the Coalition front bench serve up day after day, with scarcely a murmur of concern, with almost no query about its validity, with no protest about its applicability, with no reservations about its effect on our economy and on the businesses they run.

As detailed in Abbott and Hockey are endangering Australian business, Abbott seems to be able to talk down the economy with impunity, thereby imperiling Australian businesses, without one word of condemnation from businessmen, without even a whisper of caution from them. Why is this so?

It is hard to believe that their silence is because they believe the rhetoric and accept the validity of the claims, as clearly many of them are preposterous and demonstrably untrue, the dire effects of the carbon tax being an obvious example. There must be other reasons.

It should not be surprising to anyone that businessmen who support entrepreneurship, free markets, competition, light regulation, minimal red and green tape, ‘flexible’ industrial policy, small government, and low taxes, find themselves attracted to Liberal policies that espouse these elements, although not necessarily following them in government. But that does not explain why they allow Abbott, Hockey, Robb and Cormann, the Coalition’s finance spokesmen, to continually talk down the economy, depress consumer confidence, imperil their businesses in the process, and put a brake on their own confidence, which is now lower, much lower than that of the consumers.

I shall attempt to tease out some explanations that I believe may be operating.

Many businessmen are Coalition supporters
One explanation is that some businessmen are such rusted on Coalition supporters, such entrenched Labor antagonists, that their support for the Coalition is unconditional. An example that springs to mind is Marcus Padley of the Marcus Today Newsletter, whose gloomy reports and prognostications about the stock market on ABC Radio every weekday are liberally sprinkled with overt anti-Government sentiment.

Unconditional support is the only explanation I can muster to explain how they can endorse the bumbling, foot-in-mouth, disingenuous Leader of the Coalition, with his overt ignorance of economics, his policy deficits, his shonky costings, and his policy ineptitude in the few areas he has already defined, his Direct Action Plan for climate change being a classic instance.

Some of course may not be unconditionally supportive, but because they accept the predictions of commentators on polls of voting intention that the Coalition is a shoo-in at the 2013 election, believe it is prudent for them to say nothing that would get them offside with what they expect to be the next government, from which they would be seeking favours, policies congenial to their business, and a leg-up when in strife. Perhaps they should pay more attention to polling trends that show a steady narrowing of the gap between the Coalition and Labor. Perhaps they should seriously contemplate the possibility of the Government being returned. If and when they do, they may be more inclined to call out Abbott and Co. when they make outrageous statements.

Some businessmen are rent-seekers
Another explanation of the reluctance of some businessmen to criticize the Coalition is that they are rent-seekers who want the Government to ease their burden as we saw when the carbon tax and the MMRT were introduced. Wanting the taxes removed or reduced, advocates were out in numbers with advertisements on TV and in the papers condemning these initiatives. Mitch Hooke of the Minerals Council led the charge, soon joined by Gina Rinehart, Twiggy Forrest and Clive Palmer, the Australian Industry Group, the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, the Business Council of Australia and other employer organizations, all predicting economic disaster for businesses in the wake of the taxes. The carbon tax was about to disrupt, dislocate, and destroy businesses across the nation. As Tony Abbott opportunistically jumped in with a vow made in his own blood that these taxes would be repealed should they elect the Coalition to office, the rent-seekers rallied to his support.

No businessman wants to pay more tax, although some willingly do so for the common good. But there was little concern shown by the rent-seekers for the common good. They simply wanted the taxes removed, and spent millions in advertising to this end, and to hell with the rationale behind the taxes: to reduce pollution and spread the benefits of the mining boom. The spectre of the slaughter of the many geese that were laying the golden eggs was raised before the eyes of the electorate. Apprehension was engendered and scare campaigns mounted of massive job losses, exploding unemployment, and whole industries and towns wiped out.

The rent-seekers were smart. They knew full well that their campaign was disingenuous, but self-interest trumped the common good. Their colleagues in other areas of industry and commerce also knew that their campaign was self-serving, but did they raise a murmur? No. As Ross Gittins put it in his article: What business needs to learn about politics “…big business won't get far until it abandons its code of honour among thieves. That is, when one industry goes into battle with the government to resist a new impost or get itself a special concession, all the other industries keep mum, even though they know the first industry is merely on the make.” That’s exactly what they did – kept mum. Referring to the MMRT, Gittins continues: “Big business looked the other way as the three big miners connived with the opposition to destroy the Rudd government. Its reward was to have its precious cut in company tax snatched away.”

The colleagues of the rent-seekers could have voiced their concern about one section of the economy seeking benefits at the expense of other sections and the common good. But they chose silence, and thereby gave tacit support to their colleagues and to the party that was promising repeal, the Coalition.

So here is another explanation of why businessmen seem to swallow the ‘talking down the economy’ rhetoric of Abbott/Hockey/Robb/Cormann without a protest, without a murmur, without so much as asking them to tone down the talk that is damaging their businesses day after day, week after week. They are part of the industrial/commercial club that sticks together, that exhibits the age-old ‘honour among thieves’. Unfortunately, it is the public’s rights and benefits that are being thieved.

Indifferent relationships exist between business and government
Writing in The Australian, John Durie attributes the adverse attitude of some businessmen to PM Gillard and her Government as due to the business community coming to grips with a flat economy that is a tough grind. He noted that some businesspeople are still smarting from policy changes and feel they have borne the brunt of tax changes, including the latest plans to bring forward payments.

He went on to say: “Big business isn't perfect and government bitterness is understandable after watching the big miners in open revolt over the tax changes. The public attacks on the government have died down as the better operators understand no one likes being slagged in public, so if they want to deal with the government it is better to be more cordial. They just wish Gillard would respond on the same terms.”

Durie conceded that the Asian Century white paper was welcomed as it offered a potential bridge between the two sides after a rocky relationship, but at the Business Council's annual dinner last week, he asserts that: “Gillard missed a chance to engage with a broad cross-section of business, welfare groups and community leaders.” He reported that: “Businesspeople say that in individual meetings Gillard is completely different, engaged and interested, but before big business audiences she speaks right over the top of them, apparently to a different audience…Just as she did last year, she used the occasion to lecture the audience rather than engage a genuinely open audience.”

Whether or not Durie is correct in laying the blame for this dissonance at the PM’s feet, it does seem that some businesspeople do. This is yet another explanation for the willingness of some to hold their tongue when Abbott and Co. are on their negative rampages, talking down the economy at the expense of business. Their antagonism to PM Gillard at the one time encourages them to be critical of her and her Government, while inhibiting them from being critical of the Coalition.

So there it is. Although it is very doubtful that businessmen really believe the rationale of Tony Abbott and his finance colleagues when they talk down the economy, they exhibit a regrettable reticence to pounce on them. Yet when that happens, people defer discretionary spending on their homes and cars, cut back on luxury items, use their clothes a little longer, shop online, eat out less often, take their own lunch to work, defer that holiday, pay off the credit card, reduce the mortgage, and save for the rainy day. And as they do, business suffers. Retail sales decline, restaurants languish, coffee/sandwich shops have fewer takers and some close, travel agents lose business, airlines have fewer flights. All of this distresses businesspeople, erodes profits, reduces dividends, diminishes stock prices, forces closures and bankrupts some, and results in personal dismay and depression. Yet, the business community stays mute.

A reasonable reaction would be to shout from the rooftops:

“Shut your mouths Abbott, Hockey, Robb, Cormann, your scaremongering is frightening people; your doom and gloom is driving customers away, it’s killing our business, sending us broke, and driving shareholders to desperation as their pensions erode and their dreams of comfortable retirement evaporate”.

But they say nothing. Why oh why?

Several explanations for this extraordinary behaviour are offered:

Many businessmen are Coalition supporters and won’t criticize their own. Others, believing that the Coalition will form the next government, out of self-interest refrain from disapproving their behaviour.

Some businessmen are rent-seekers and because they need the Coalition’s support, will not criticize. Honour among thieves inhibits other businessmen from entering the debate.

Indifferent relationships between business and the current government restrain some businessmen from criticizing the alternative government.


You may have other explanations for this astonishing unwillingness of businesspeople to insist that Abbott and Co. stop talking down our economy, the envy of the developed world, and stop wreaking havoc with their businesses.

What do you think?

Comments (148) -

November 19. 2012 08:39 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Australian Industry Group warns of job losses if Gillard government fails to get flexible on workplace reform

www.smartcompany.com.au/.../...rkplace-reform.html

Typically Ad Astra only looks at Abbott, whereas business actually wants reform that Our Prime Minister won’t consider.

She is indebted to the union hacks who gave her the job.

Tom of Melbourne

November 19. 2012 08:41 PM

MWS

At least part of the reason for reduced consumer spending is the aftermath of the shock that many consumers received at the time of the GFC.  Many people realised then that the "rainy day" had arrived and they hadn't been saving for it.  As a result, they are now saving (better late than never).  

Some people lost their job (or thought they might).  That resulted in a sudden focus on the need to have savings to help them in future.  The problem the Reserve Bank has is to encourage spending in this climate with the few tools at their disposal.

MWS

November 19. 2012 08:48 PM

DMW

Ad,
interesting thoughts.

It would would be remiss of me if I were to pass up a chance to gently chide you

Many businessmen are Coalition supporters

Apart from the sweeping generalisation that I will come back in a later comment surely in this day and age that should read Many businesspeople ...

Unless I have totally missed the point and the implication is that businessMEN are inherently conservative and businessWOMEN are inherently progressive.

Smile & Tong

DMW

November 19. 2012 09:48 PM

Rocco

Good on you Tom first cab off the rank.
People like the AIG like to  peddle he myth abt how all is bad, the economy is stuffed,  the unions are in control, wages Are soaring  and we are all doomed.
People like Greg Jericho post on an almost weekly basis that this is all rubbish

Rocco

November 19. 2012 11:01 PM

Ad astra reply

MWS
You are right.  The GFC shocked many people into austerity and saving, which was an appropriate response, but the Abbott/Hockey talking down of the economy has delayed recovery from that state of mind, to the detriment of business.  Consumer confidence is now slowly recovering, but business confidence lags behind, and I suspect will continue in this vein until increeaing consumer confidence results in increased sales and business recovery.

DMW
You would have noticed I used 'businesspeople' later in the piece, but decided not to tediously use that designation throughout, instead using businessman, which I hoped would have been taken in a generic sense, rather than in a gender sense. There might be a difference in attitude between businessmen and businesswomen, but it was not my intention to attempt to draw out any difference.

Rocco
Well said, but don't expect ToM to give credence to your contention.  Getting blood out of a stone is impossibly tiresome.

Ad astra reply

November 19. 2012 11:19 PM

Tom of Melbourne

That’s what is so hilarious about this place.

It’s full of people who want to believe a medical practitioner knows all about business, as does Greg Jericho (last job in the ministry of arts or something), but actual business organisations don’t speak on behalf of business!!

Very amusing.

Tom of Melbourne

November 19. 2012 11:40 PM

Rocco

Tom, it's not about what people like AIG say it's about facts. In case u I missed It o chose  to ignore it here of Gregs post last weekend on wages growth, another area where the coalition is  in full on scare mode.

"It is really starting to get annoying. Today the ABS once again produced data that failed to show any sign of a wages breakout. How long must we go before we turf out these current union hacks and bring back some 1970s style leaders who will deliver the destruction of the economy so long promised us by conservative commentators since around mid-2007?

Today the ABS revealed that the Wages Price Index rose by 0.9% in trend terms over the previous quarter, and in seasonally adjusted terms rose only 0.71%.

Both the Public and Private Sector WPI rose by 0.9% in trend terms, in seasonally adjusted terms, the Private sector WPI rose 0.8% and the Public Sector by 0.7%."

But then again you are probably like the republicans who said the US job figures were massaged in the White House.

Oh, and Obama still won last time I looked.

Rocco

November 19. 2012 11:53 PM

Casablanca

ToM

Greg Jericho, according to the bio in the front of his book, The Rise of the Fifth Estate, has an Honours Degree in Economics and a PhD in English Literature. Both would have been useful academic qualifications for his employment in the film policy area of the Department of Prime Minister & Cabinet.

I imagine running a Medical Practice would give one a certain feel for the challenges of small business.

Irrespective of what Greg Jericho's and Ad Astra's academic and employment experiences are or were, they both show intelligence, excellent research skills and writing skills.

Most trolls seem to have little interest or skills in evaluation, logic or truth.

Casablanca

November 20. 2012 12:10 AM

nasking


Kevin Rudd is the kind of leader you have when yer desperate for a Laborite who acts like a stuffy puffed up full of piss & wind moderate Tory...useful to begin the transition...but can't help acting like a tribal chieftain lapping up the attention, pontificating to the crowd, most nodding in agreement...for about twenty minutes...then you get the sense that the listeners are eager to head off for the pig-on-the-spit that Rudd has promised them...salivating they eagerly look about...but there is no fire lit...no food cooking...just the voice of Ruddy promising "...a feast the likes you've never seen...now where was I?"


Malcolm Turnbull is yet another stuffy, puffed up, full of piss and wind tribal chief...he loves the sound of his own voice...even the echoes. Unfortunately, he bores his own tribe...and his real followers live on other islands. So to keep his voice strong and confidence as stiff as a "woody" he visits the floating Jones' Ampitheater now and then...and keeps a small audience entertained with a collection of monologues from ShakesCorp...and Sophogreed.

Alas, he nor Chief Rudd can cheese it up...stretch the dramatic tension out...to keep the audience rapt long enuff they throw flowers at their feet as they would a Branagh...we merely get polite applause...a few chuckles...and whispers of "If only...AHHH, what could've been".

And another night's entertainment ends.

-----
Meanwhile, in GETTING ON WITH THE JOB LAND...Julia Gillard scores another policy goal by elbowing Tony Negabore in the big gawking mug...passing the bill to Swan who manages to head the bill into the net...whilst goalkeer Wong gives Meaty Joyce a swift kick in the nuts as she walks back to her position, fist clenched in victory salute to the crowd...smile evident. "That one is for me!!!" yells out Annabel..."I expect a meal of courtesy next time".

nasking

November 20. 2012 12:10 AM

Patriciawa

My sense of some business people when I meet them is that they have little real interest in politics and so don't read much about what is happening in government.   If they are Coalition supporters they take Tony Abbott's and Joe Hockey's comments at face value and are happy to repeat them to rationalise their own problems.

Those rare thinking business people who can talk about politics and the economy are Labor or Green voters.

Thank you for another thought provoking post, Ad Astra.   Think of all that negativity and destructiveness of Tony Abbott and how much more Australia could achieve without his prophesies of doom.  It's surely having an impact on his own health too, as your earlier post about his disintegration evidenced so clearly.  We are blessed in having a government that made sure that he has not had the same destructive impact on Australia.........


As Tony Abbott and team spread ‘the facts’
About carbon pricing’s dire impacts,
Worried Aussies, supporting a family,
Cut down on spending, unsurprisingly.
Nonetheless our economy boomed.
The world didn’t think that Oz was doomed.
Towns weren’t destroyed or industries dying,
But in the big stores people weren’t buying.........

polliepomes.wordpress.com/.../



Patriciawa

November 20. 2012 12:12 AM

nasking


Goalkeeper

nasking

November 20. 2012 07:06 AM

Lyn

TODAY’S LINKS

IPA falsifiers fear fact checking fad, Alan Austin, Independent Australia
More urgently for Australia’s IPA, recent focus on the lies of their pal, Opposition Leader Tony Abbott, has coincided with a dramatic fall in his approval rate to new record lows. Just coincidence? Again, hard to be certain. But the IPA is nervous.
www.independentaustralia.net/.../

AFR: losing its independence?Gary Sauer-Thompson, Public Opinion
What we get instead is the line that Gillard is relying on superficial attacks on the Opposition Leader (political spin) to raise Labor’s electoral standing, rather than engaging in reform---tax, infrastructure, and workforce deregulation. The inference? Gillard Labor fails to construct a credible policy agenda to deal with the opportunities and disciplines of the next phase of Australia’s resources boom.
www.sauer-thompson.com/.../afr-losing-its.php#more

Latham’s Bolt Watch: ‘He will say and do anything to get at Gillard’,
For those who tuned in lately, ex-Labor leader Mark Latham has turned his special skills toward analysing blogger Andrew Bolt’s crusade to bring down Julia Gillard over the Slater & Gordon AWU story. Latham claims to have uncovered a series of false, ridiculous and “outright outrageous” information on Bolt’s blog, a claim rejected by Bolt in a lively exchange of emails and telephone calls between the pair.
www.crikey.com.au/.../lathams-bolt-watch-he-will-say-and-do-anything-to-get-at-gilla

Bishop in check, Clarence Girl, North Coast Voices
Well, what did the Federal Liberal Party expect? Once it began to use its Deputy Leader as the main attack dog targeting the Prime Minister, eventually it would become a case of political pot kettle black.
northcoastvoices.blogspot.com.au/.../...check.html

Confirmation That Libspill Is On, Dan Gulbery, The  Daily Derp
His constant attacks on the Prime Minister have made him appear to the voters as a misogynistic, sexist bully.He’s even dragged his wife and kids out to spruik for him,
thedailyderp.net/.../

Why your electricity bill is so high, Barry Tucker
The federal Liberal/National Party Opposition has adopted an attack policy, blaming increases on the government’s Carbon Price scheme (which accounts for 10% of the bill) and ignoring other possible factors. The federal government responds by saying the large increase in power bills is due to State-owned power companies “gold plating” the upgrades to their infrastructure: mainly the poles and wires.
sumofusoriginenergycampaign.wordpress.com/.../

We Used To Be Friends, Peter Wicks, Wixxy Leaks
Next year Jackson plans to wed fiancé Michael Lawler, dud dancer, and Vice President of Fair Work Australia, the organisation that produced the original, now discredited investigation whose findings diverted attention away from his fiancé. This wedding is to take place overseas, in Massachusetts actually, and given that Jackson is Greek, I hope that the authorities have checked out our extradition treaties with any countries she plans to visit whilst away, as there are many who think she is going to do a runner.
wixxyleaks.com/2012/11/19/we-used-to-be-friends/

Tony Abbott: pride before the fall, Minkel, Café Whispers
Berg is stating, that the Liberal Party is offering nothing more than an “impressionist platform” – yet Michael Gordon would, instead of suggesting that Tony Abbott present ideals and aspirations give himself a superficial make-over by becoming positive and disciplined. But that would only be an impression, wouldn’t it…and an insincere one.
cafewhispers.wordpress.com/.../

What 'No Advantage' Really Means, Nick Riemer, New Matilda
The campaign to end offshore processing for good has to start in earnest now, before the "fair go" and the desire to "leave the world a bit better" wantonly visit more tragedy on refugees. Australia’s acute human rights abuses are not happening in some other country: they are happening here, now, and Australian society is ultimately responsible.
newmatilda.com/.../no-advantage-really-means

In the name of God, go!, John Quiggin
Suspending Eddie Obeid is not nearly enough. Those who allied themselves with him including Tripodi, Roozendaal, Bitar, Arbib and Keneally must all go too. And Labor needs a new Parliamentary leader – John Robertson is too compromised to present a clean face. It will be a long while before Labor is electable at a state level in NSW
johnquiggin.com/.../

Guardian ‘may launch Australian print edition’, Mumbrella
According to today’s AFR, the left-leaning newspaper, which is owned by a not-for-profit trust, “is believed to be eyeing an expansion into Australia with plans to potentially establish a small print edition as well as an online presence.”
mumbrella.com.au/guardian-may-launch-australian-print-edition-126245

All Hail Burma’s Political Prisoners, Elise Potaka, The Global Mail
This is not an endorsement of the Burmese government,” Obama told reporters Sunday in Bangkok, Thailand, the first stop on a three-nation tour that also takes him to Cambodia Monday night. “This is an acknowledgment that there is a process underway inside that country that even a year and a half, two years ago, nobody foresaw.”
www.theglobalmail.org/.../

Just watch, Quigley tells NBN critics: We’re on track, Renai LeMay, Delimeter
Most who follow the NBN debate know that the project is currently engaged in a race against time. If it can deploy substantial sections of its infrastructure by the time the next Federal Election comes around, it seems likely that a Coalition Government would need to proceed with the project as a whole, or at least maintain much of its premise and goals intact.
delimiter.com.au/.../

Today’s Front Pages
Australia Newspaper Front Pages for 20 November 2012
www.frontpagestoday.co.uk/index.cfm

Lyn

November 20. 2012 07:08 AM

Truth Seeker

Ad, well done on this whole series of articles covering a number of elephants in the room and culminating in one of the bigger elephants.
There is a culture of  business owners who support the LNP because they are expected to, but there is also an insidious side to this question which started back in the eighties when the entrepreneurial tradies, electricians, chippies plumbers etc were bought out by accountants.

I witnessed this first hand through the dealings I had with small businesses that I was supplying when I was running my own.

These people are intrinsically LNP as they are just bean counters whose entire focus is the bottom line ( sorry to generalise ), with little on no working knowledge or understanding of the running of the businesses that they bought into.

They LOVE workchoices because their employees are just a number on a spreadsheet to add to their bottom line, and would do whatever they can ( are allowed to ) to minimise costs and maximise profits.

These people see the Labor party as the enemy, and sadly are so self involved that they refuse to see that in many cases their own attitudes are their biggest impediment to real growth and stability in the marketplace in which they operate.

They treat their employees like commodities instead of valuable assets, consequently reducing their own levels of long term productivity for the sake of short term gain.

And that, I believe is approaching the crux of the matter as witnessed in the many pressers held by Abbott as he does his rounds of businesses and their owners who stand in the background nodding like parcel shelf dogs as Abbott talks down their business prospects,
and they become complicit in their own long term demise.

These people operate under, what are essentially false economies, and have waylaid the business sector as surely as academics have waylaid the level and tone of public discourse.

Sadly these people and their attitudes are entrenched in the business community and have perverted business activity not only here but around the world and IMO a large part of the reason for the GFC and its ongoing ramifications.

Bring back and support the entrepreneurial Tradies and reduce the influence of the bean counters and academics and the world will recover.

Just my opinion.

Cheers  Smile

Truth Seeker

November 20. 2012 07:54 AM

Truth Seeker

Patricia, nice one !  Smile

Cheers

Truth Seeker

November 20. 2012 08:07 AM

janice

Nasking @ 12.10pm

You obviously watched Q&A last night Smile  You are spot on when you state that Rudd and Turnbull are "stuffy and full of piss and wind".  Both of them were endowed with an overdose of ego and a sense of their own importance.  Neither of them are worth the space they take up on the parliamentary benches.

janice

November 20. 2012 08:23 AM

Ad astra

LYN'S DAILY LINKS updated: www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...-DAILY-LINKS.aspx

Ad astra

November 20. 2012 08:35 AM

janice

Truth Seeker,

There is a culture of  business owners who support the LNP because they are expected to, but there is also an insidious side to this question which started back in the eighties when the entrepreneurial tradies, electricians, chippies plumbers etc were bought out by accountants.

Very true.  I remember years ago being gobsmacked when a Labor voting couple (tradies) I knew took on a small business and promptly switched from supporting Labor to being mouthpieces for the Tories.  The wife declared loudly at a function that now they were business owners they vote Liberal, because she reasoned, Labor only looks after wage earners and therefore it is in their interests to go with the Libs who look after the self employed.

Since then I've often heard business people admit they vote Tory because Labor only looks after workers and down 'n outs.  It escapes their notice that "workers and down 'n outs"  happen to be the source of their business incomes and without them their business success would be negligible.  Shallow thinkers the lot of them.




janice

November 20. 2012 08:43 AM

jaycee

Truth Seeker..I think you have hit the nail on the head in regards the amount of incompetant business people taking over tradies interests.
As a tradie in the construction industry for over fortyfive years, I was unable to obtain a general builders licence because I never had the backing of hundreds of thousands of dollars and legalese knowledge to get one. I had to do with a restricted licence that restricted me to contracting to and limited work-commmitment of lesser amounts of money. This left the field open to some quite unscrupulous and dopey entrepreneurs and speculators who had access to the finance and the contractual chicanery, but little or no knowledge of construction and so would look to hire supervisors (of sometimes suspicious qualifications but silent tounges)that would "manage" their enterprises...we have all heard frightening stories of those shonky building companies run by Liberal Party supporters and apparachiks(spelling?).
Indeed, some of these scumbags rely heavily on a Liberal Party govt' giving succour to their quasi-criminal activities. Such fly-by-night business people are the worker's enemy and the Labor Party's enemy as well.
The bottom line is,: If you are a selfish, dumb opportunist, then you would relish a Liberal Party govt' to obfuscate, hide and support your quasi-criminal activities. Tony Abbott, like the devious "supervisor" is their man for the job!

jaycee

November 20. 2012 08:50 AM

Michael

I didn't realise what I was actually reading until I reached the end of this piece by Phil Coorey in today's Sydney Morning Herald about last night's edition of Q&A, which included Kevin Rudd and Malcolm Turnbull on the panel.

www.smh.com.au/.../...ith-rudd-20121119-29mo5.html

It's a report describing an event. Reporting. Not commentary. Not opinion. Not insinuating the writer's voice into a dialogue that never included him.

I was quite certain news reporters didn't know how to do this anymore.

Their job, that is.

Michael

November 20. 2012 09:00 AM

Lyn

Hi Michael

Thankyou for your link.

When I was reading Phillip Coorey, I thought so he thinks we didn't watch Q&A.

Chief Political Correspondent, based in Canberra

Maybe he should take up writing about, 7.30pm report, Media Watch, The Insiders, but needs to change his title.  Political Correspondent what a joke.

SmileSmileSmileSmileSmile

Lyn

November 20. 2012 09:07 AM

2353

AA well researched and written.  I'm wondering if we are in the middle of a change in society here where as business gets larger, it becomes less personal, and more about the EBIT and balance sheet.

To add to the generalisations, the Conservative Parties in the UK, US and here have tapped into the "greed is good" generation.  While in the past crackpots have had the options of taking out those densely worded ads in the paper or handing out scraps of paper on the street corner - today they can get a really large audience through social media and they get traction.  Grog's (Greg Jericho) piece from 9 November has a Youtube clip at the end of it showing a US TV Host debunking a number of the crackpot myths around (http://youtu.be/SVwXA7sHUlE).  The whole "Mythbusters" and fact checking concept is a reaction to crackpot internet sites.

While those that own businesses are entitled to a rate of return on their capital as well as a wage from the business, a significant majority then are absorbed by "large" items on their balance sheets - staff and their entitlements.  Its quite morbid but funny to watch people in business complain when someone from "their side" of politics screws them badly - such as what Newman and O'Farrell are doing to the states they govern.  Reducing the available money in the community by sacking tens of thousands of staff is doing that.

2353

November 20. 2012 09:10 AM

2353

The bit I missed in the rant above was that "large balance sheet" items such as staff are seen as being a drag on the profit - therefore they can be cut (with the implication that the remaining workers will pick up their performance to cover the sacked).  The mindset seems to be "its all about me" rather than I'm making a reasonable return so this is my way to contribute to society.

2353

November 20. 2012 09:13 AM

Tom of Melbourne

Fascinating.

Greg Jericho has qualifications similar to mine! So that must mean we’re both economic gurus. Has Jericho ever applied his qualifications professionally?

Ad Astra really has no real experience in business, at least no more that the proprietor of a milk bar.

Yet the qualified and considered position of an organisation that represents business is dismissed.

The AIG and other business organisations have said repeatedly that the industrial relations laws need reform, but this is simply dismissed by ALP barrackers who know that Gillard owes her job to the union hacks.

It’s that people are so blinkered here that makes it so hilarious here.

Tom of Melbourne

November 20. 2012 09:21 AM

jaycee

Watching Q&A. last night and listening to the stupid "news-event" reporting of Rudd and Turnbull "leadership" possibilities this morning on "Cradle-O-National", I had the feeling there is a push to change the political agenda by denying the reality.
Here we had a panel talking about "leadership" in the studios of the ABC. when in reality, we had real-leadership in Sth-East Asia doing the rounds of diplomatic and policy direction for the good of the nation!....Talk about unrealistic TV.

jaycee

November 20. 2012 09:31 AM

BSA Bob

There's a tendency to rationalise to oneself that the system is big enough to take the hit that you give it. Many individuals in business think of themselves in this way. The clothing store owner who succeeds in reducing their employee's wages doesn't concern themselves with the fact that the new washing machine won't be bought now, thereby hurting GE's finances.
The Liberals are just better at appealing to this attitude than Labor (who I'd like to think don't appeal to it at all).

BSA Bob

November 20. 2012 09:36 AM

jaycee

Place two people on a dias..One is Greg Jerico, the other is a troll...Does one listen to he who has the gumption to explain his principles on his own blog-site with a lucid and reasoned dialogue...or does one listen to a f*ckwit? I remember being at such a meeting where a known "Troll" (such as the one we have here) took to the dias and proceeded to berate the audience tiresomely...One "seasoned" lady next to me who was familiar with the lunatic on the dias, withdrew the ciggy from her lips and called out in a loud,raspy but knowledgeble voice..: "Throw him off..He' a wanker!"
The applause was defeaning!!

jaycee

November 20. 2012 09:37 AM

42 long

  All the wingeing managers should get on with their job, and look at their own performance. No amount of "pruning" will help a bad business model with obsolete techniques and out of date processes and equipment . Which country would they rather operate from and live in ( other than here)?.. They want to cherry pick. Like likeable GINA RUINHART and have a race to the bottom on worker conditions, to get a profit. If all firms did that there would be a recession with  the local market disappearing due to lack of purchasing capacity. Henry Ford about 100 years ago put his workers wages up by a large amount to the consternation of his co- car manufacturers. His response to them was reputedly along the lines of."if I don't pay my workers a good wage, they won't be able to buy my cars."..
It's a long time since the workers in a firm were regarded aS AN ASSETT, Its not the practice for firms to seekout and train their staff. Young managers being so insecure often sack all staff older than they are.
   The practice is to do the new broom act and reduce staff numbers making expansion later a difficult business. A very short term advantage is achieved, that is all.
   Watch the stock market reaction to a pile of sackings from an ailing company. Responding to the " fear and greed" factor they go up . The short term figures give the Manager a whopping bonus so they don't stay long to be responsible for the long term effect, but move on to perform the same trick on some other company. The system supports this kind of process.

42 long

November 20. 2012 09:52 AM

LadyInRed

Ad astra

Interesting article. You have come up with a number of possible reasons as to why businesspeople don't criticise the coalition. Perhaps they believe the only way to get the 'flexible' work policies that they say they need is to go with the coalition. If they can't make large profits anymore on the back of the boom then they will want to get them some other way, and the first place they look is wage costs. They believe they are less likely to get 'flexible' from Labor. I think they physically shudder at the thought of Australia being a high wage, high productivity country, because they much prefer a lower wage high productivity scenario.

Policies do affect business, there is no way of getting a way from that. In Queensland, for example, an LNP government has made things mighty difficult for business. The shock, both economic and social, has had a massive impact on this state. And, what we don't need is to constantly have TAbboot and Hockey continually telling us how bad the government is handling the economy, especially when nothing in the data backs up that claim.

LadyInRed

November 20. 2012 10:02 AM

Tom of Melbourne

Perhaps Ad Astra would do better if he wrote about an issue he might be more familiar with, such as the health sector and reform of medical practice/profession.


Does Ad Astra consider it reasonable that the taxpayer provides the average GP with a salary of about $200,000 a year?

Rather than just making up stuff that he’s quite unfamiliar with, he might occasionally delve into a subject where he could provide some informed insights.

Tom of Melbourne

November 20. 2012 10:03 AM

Lyn

Good Morning Ad and Everybody,

Thankyou Ad for another very enjoyable read, reads like you are talking to me again.  How do you get time to operate this incredible assembly line of words, providing us with so much interesting reading week in and week out.  Thankyou Ad Astra you are Gold.

Bushfire Bill
Posted Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 8:32 am |
Turnbull is not the breezy, Renaissance man that so many seem to think he is. He has a couple more “Godwin Grechs” in him yet. There’s an arrogant streak there that always comes out. Sure, he’s an improvement on Abbott, but anything would be. We’ve seen what he was like as LOTO: smarmy, nasty, opportunistic and too tempted to take the easy path (or what looked like the easy path).
blogs.crikey.com.au/.../#comment-1476602

Tweeting Roo ™ ‏
Courier-Mail assistant editor slams Gillard embezzlement conspiracy theory as “smear”

Touch of the absurd in a war of slurs over Julia Gillard's past, Paul Syvret, Courier Mail
A small but vocal section of the populace chattering class division seem to have had a collective seizure and are spending a significant proportion of their waking hours wandering the streets in tin-foil hats looking for evidence that Elvis isn't dead and the moon landings were faked.

Seriously, the AWU stuff is right up there with conspiracy theories implicating a Chinese submarine in the disappearance of Harold Holt. And hasn't all this barren ground been thoroughly ploughed by now?

www.couriermail.com.au/.../story-e6frerg6-1226519824078

Australian Workers Union scandal insider Ralph Blewitt speaks out , STEVE LEWIS
A KEY witness in the Australian Workers Union scandal will fly into Australia tomorrow prepared to tell all over an alleged "slush" fund used by Julia Gillard's ex-boyfriend.

Ralph Blewitt, a former AWU Victorian secretary, confirmed he will travel from Malaysia to meet with his legal team in Melbourne before providing a statement to Victorian detectives.

www.dailytelegraph.com.au/.../story-fndo28a5-1226519913992

Intrigue builds over AWU files for slush-fund case, Mark Baker, SMH
A Federal Court spokesman said an exhaustive search had discovered the missing Queensland files in the court's Victorian registry in Melbourne on Monday.

But he confirmed that a box of records was still missing from the court's NSW registry, including a crucial affidavit and documents assembled by AWU whistleblower and now Fair Work Australia commissioner Ian Cambridge.
www.smh.com.au/.../...und-case-20121119-29m5j.html

Turnbull plays up his frontbench role in TV joust with Rudd, Phillip Coorey
He chided Mr Turnbull for belonging to a political party that twice voted against a price on carbon and said he had not changed his view "one bit" on climate change policy after Mr Turnbull found himself defending the Coalition's direct action policy, which he had previously criticised
www.smh.com.au/.../...ith-rudd-20121119-29mo5.html

RuddBull double act shines on Q&A, Tony Wright
www.theage.com.au/.../...on-qa-20121119-29mol.html

Stephen Koukoulas ‏
On Q&A Turnbull said govt spending was out of control: Fact check: 2012-13 spending to GDP ratio 23.8%; avg of Howard govt 24.2%. Peak 25.1%

Tim Mathieson carries the bags as Julia Gillard flies the flags , Gemma Jones
Broadcaster Ray Hadley yesterday asked Ms Gillard's office if Mr Mathieson received an allowance or financial support, a driver or accommodation. Ms Gillard's office said the First Bloke was not paid for his work with his three chosen charities, including Men's Shed and Kidney Health Australia and gets no allowance. He has travelled the country, including to Tasmania, Dubbo and Mt Isa promoting men's health.

www.dailytelegraph.com.au/.../story-fndo28a5-1226519891104

Roxon to bring in laws for gender bias
www.smh.com.au/.../...der-bias-20121119-29m8q.html

SmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmile

Lyn

November 20. 2012 10:17 AM

jaycee

"Greg Jerico has qualifications similar to mine..." Haahahahaha!...YOU, my quoted ding-bat, are like a young man who went to the doctor..perhaps it could have been AA!..to complain of a rash on his penis...The doctor (a seasoned expert on the habits of young men) took the youths' right hand, turned it palm upwards and wearily prognosed..: "Perhaps the first and best thing to do is to remove that rather large wart from your palm..."
"Throw him off!...He's a wanker!"

jaycee

November 20. 2012 11:16 AM

BSA Bob

I see the desperately sought & now "rediscovered" files don't interest the MSM after all, it's the ones not yet found, whatever they are.
And Mr Blewitt is flying in to consult his "legal team". Amazing how these "legal teams" can be assembled.

BSA Bob

November 20. 2012 11:23 AM

Wake Up

"Throw him off..He' a wanker!"

+1



Wake Up

November 20. 2012 11:58 AM

jaycee

Wake up...What do you mean..: +1 ?.....now, be nice!

jaycee

November 20. 2012 12:11 PM

Ad astra

Hi Lyn
I’ve now finished reading your links and Twitterverse.  What a cornucopia of interesting reading you give us every day.  You will enjoy your well-deserved rest over the end-of-year period.

Thank you for your kind comments about this piece.  There have been a number of thoughtful comments to which I shall respond later.

Ad astra

November 20. 2012 01:01 PM

Paul

Hey ToM,

Just because a pressure group (ie, AIG, AMA, HIA, IPA, MCA, etc) call for something doesn't mean to say that what they say is balanced.

Now, with that in mind, how do we sort the wheat from the chaff? What do the textbooks & professors say about these things?

So, have you ever thought about the multiple factors of productivity in the Australian economy?

Have you ever thought about the impact of the RBA on the AUS exchange rate?

Do you understand what LIBOR is and its linkage to the GFC?

Paul

Paul

November 20. 2012 01:19 PM

TalkTurkey

Ohhh this is nice, via Twitter. What I love to see, all too rarely - but more and more now.


Thank you Stephen Spencer,‏ Paul Syvret and Snowy!

@sspencer_63

A VERY different take on Gillard and the AWU from within News Ltd. Paul Syvret in today's Courier Mail www.couriermail.com.au/.../story-e6frerg6-1226519824078


Retweeted by Snowy

TalkTurkey

November 20. 2012 02:00 PM

Wake Up

jaycee,

'+1' is social media/internet shorthand to signify adding support for a comment or statement, in other words with regard to your comment regarding the miserable little troll "Throw him off..He' a wanker!", I total agree.

Sorry if it was misinterpreted.

Wake Up

November 20. 2012 02:14 PM

jaycee

Where do these "shorthand" bits and pieces come from...I've been on the internet since 1993 (Apple Mac plus)and I never see them till I'm told ; "Oh!...it's been around for years!"..?
I'm sure they must be mobile phone clones.

jaycee

November 20. 2012 02:25 PM

2353

Don't forget that AIG & ACCI are two of the largest industrial groupings in Australia.  One definition of a Trade Union is Political activity: Trades union may promote legislation favourable to the interests of their members or workers as a whole. To this end they may pursue campaigns, undertake lobbying, or financially support individual candidates or parties (such as the Labour Party in Britain) for public office. In some countries (e.g., the Nordic countries and the Philippines), trades union may be invited to participate in government hearings about educational or other labour market reforms. (From Wikipedia)

As the AIG & ACCI have a history of pursuing campaigns, lobbying and financially supporting candidates for political office; it is probably a reasonable statement to suggest that the employers groups are in fact no better than the trade unions they criticise at every opportunity.

2353

November 20. 2012 02:33 PM

Ad astra

Rocco, Casablanca
You have addressed the issue of who is entitled to write or comment on political matters.  If we take to its logical conclusion ToM’s principle, which seems to be that only those working in an area, in the case of this piece, business, are qualified to write about or comment on business matters, only those working in any given area, or expert in it, are entitled to write about it.  Presumably, the opinions of others are invalid or worthless.

That poses a problem come election time.  Voters, who come from a myriad of backgrounds and experience, have to choose which party they want, and in doing so need to have a view on a variety of issues, such as the economy, taxes, education, health, the environment, climate change, the carbon and minerals taxes, jobs and employment, industrial relations, unions, business and commerce, and so on the long list goes.  Those who vote thoughtfully weigh up these aspects of political policy, and vote accordingly.  Do voters say, I don’t understand all these things and I’m not qualified in all these areas, so I will refrain from voting?  No.  Elections demonstrate that voters are able to consider many aspects of political endeavour at the one time and reach a considered opinion.  The recent US elections demonstrated that voters were not suckered in by the disingenuous rhetoric of the Republican and Tea Parties, instead making up their own minds to vote in a way that astonished Republicans, Tea Party people, and of course, Mitt Romney, who was beaten by Obama by three electoral college votes for every two Romney garnered.  Most people can chew gum and also walk.

A good education equips people with the capacity to investigate, research, analyze and comment on almost any subject.  Every high school child learns how to do this and is challenged to do so in class and in examinations.  So ToM ought not be surprised that a doctor embarks on analyzing the vexed question of why so many businesspeople stay silent when Abbott and Co. incessantly talk down the economy and thereby do damage to their businesses.  It looks like ToM is shooting the messenger.

My explanations of why business is silent about Abbott’s economy-trashing may be wrong.  They are certainly open to challenge by way of reasoned argument based on facts, figures, and experience.  No author objects to that.  What is objectionable is the implication that because one is not a businessman, one’s writings are invalid on the subject of business.  Equally objectionable is the paucity of counter arguments that comes from those who berate the messenger.  The most powerful way of countering an argument is to logically demonstrate its invalidity, but we seldom see that from our messenger-shooters.

Ad astra

November 20. 2012 03:01 PM

Wake Up

Correct or '+1' jaycee, it was probably the result of some hipster doofus on 'YouTwitFace' or something. It's hard to keep up sometimes, I only just discovered RT meant 'retweet'.

Maybe we could come up with a new one like 'T2' short for 'TTWO' or 'Throw The Wanker Off'

What do you think?

Wake Up

November 20. 2012 03:22 PM

42 long

  Tony abbott reckons the "experts" opinion is cancelled out by any ordinary person. He even constantly suggests if you don't understand it don't vote for it.
   Would he use a plumber ( non unionised) to do brain surgery because you wouldn't take notice of experts.
   For democracy to work properly first the voters should be informed as much as possible. This is a situation we would generally agree is worth aiming for surely?
   Not our Tony. The man who says "CLIMATE CHANGE IS CRAP".
  Not long ago he said ( I heard him) "IT IS COOLING ACTUALLY"!!. Well you can find people who say that but they are getting less and less and their funding and information sources are questionable as are their motives. More warnings from people like theWorld Bank, who have found that we are getting close to a 4 degree warming with catastrophic flooding and weather extremes.
   What would the world Bank know about climate change? Very little in normal circumstances I WOULD EXPECT BUT THEY WILL BE MANAGING CURRENCY. You know Lending money to people for projects, Bridges Ports Houses etc. If they come unstruck because of climate factors then the banking system goes belly-up. Ouuuuwer !!!! MONEY are we going to lose money. Now you are talking. because of climate change. Perhaps it might be something we should look at after all. Tony doesn't believe it, neither does Minchin. Tony Lies to con you, and get your vote. ASK him when he is attached to a truth machine. (Lie detector) or just watch his lips move and move and move.

42 long

November 20. 2012 03:22 PM

Ad astra

Truth Seeker, janice, jaycee, 2353, BSA Bob, 42 long, LadyinRed, Paul, Wake Up, TT
Thanks to all of you for your comments and contributions.  You have informed me about the changes that take place when some trades are taken over by speculators, and when some ‘tradies’ morph into businesspeople and switch to voting Liberal.  

It remains a mystery though why those running businesses, large or small, can listen almost daily to Abbott and Co. trashing the economy, seeing consumer confidence sinking (although it’s beginning to rise now), seeing their own confidence waning as sales fall and profits decline, and not shout: ‘Shut up Abbott, shut up Hockey; you’re killing us.’  I’ve offered some explanations, and you have added some of your own.  If there are others, let’s have them on the table.

Nasking, janice, Micheal, jaycee
I thought Q&A was more tabloid than ever last night.  Tony Jones has flicked the switch to vaudeville.  Although most questions were laudable, Jones’ repeated interruptions morphed considered answers into ‘entertainment’, which is a prime objective of Jones.

The battle of their mega-egos demonstrated why Kevin Rudd and Malcolm Turnbull are no longer leaders.  Both sounded plausible at times, but the need to give the smartest answers left them looking like competing speakers at a debating match.  One point that Rudd made resonated though, and that was when he pointed out that productivity was not just about how productively employees worked for their wages, but how productively capital was deployed by investors and managers.  That struck home.  There is always talk about how to squeeze more from workers, the implication being that they are slacking, but when do we hear about poor investment decisions depreciating productivity?

Some of the questions debated evoked complex answers, but I wondered how valid they were, so rapid-fire were they.  I would like to see the same questions posed to Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott, and listen to and digest their answers.

I thought Heather Ridout was outstanding – both balanced and lucid.  Judith Sloan is little more than a Coalition apologist.  I suppose she is there to give so-called ‘balance’.  Last night she contributed little of value, but of course edged in plenty of put-downs for PM Gillard and her Government.

There’s just one more Q&A this year.  I suppose Tony Jones will want that to be a bonanza.

Ad astra

November 20. 2012 03:25 PM

jaycee

Myms- (My miss take)..It was windows '95 when I went on the internet. Perhaps there is an opening for a wikepedia type digital-age dictionary?
Sorry, AA. as for the ToM...if you look as far back as 2008 you will see that he is by now all debated out and is a mere shell of his old self...That's if he is the one person and has not franchised his stupidity out to a troll-group..because one has to wonder how his foolishness can be so long maintained without a little help!
Like some worn out athlete, his best shots, his curve-ball, his googly, his full-toss are all known and accounted for..the game has moved on and there is nothing left in the locker but repeats. Like a lot of trolls, they become nothing more than graffiti taggers...The internet ethereal-homeless. You wont get rid of him by ignoring him..This site is his "bridge" he sleeps under....."Hey brother..can you spare a dime?"

jaycee

November 20. 2012 03:28 PM

Tom of Melbourne

No, I’ve not said you aren’t entitled to comment on business issues.

I’ve said you have ignored the specific reforms that business has sought and this is because this reform is politically inconvenient to the government. It’s no use writing a lengthy analysis of the interests of business, and then specifically neglect to address the issue that they have sought to have addressed.

As for Greg Jericho, he makes a reasonable contribution to public debate, but it was one of your commentators that raised his name as a credible business commentator – on the basis of his qualifications. Blame your cheer club for giving the underserved status to a graduate in economics.

You should be above verballing people as you have done here.

Tom of Melbourne

November 20. 2012 03:28 PM

Gravel

Ad Astra

Thank you for this, you have set out why small businesses appear to back the coalition.  As other have also suggested, it is because they want 'workchoices' back so they can lower wages.  I understand all that, but don't the businesses understand that if you lower wages then the worker has less money to spend?  Most businesses have 'Sales', to either get more customers or to clear out stock.  Surely they can put two and two together that people buy something cheaper at a 'Sale' because they cannot afford to buy at the retail price.  If workers get less in wages, they then couldn't even afford to buy at 'Sale' prices......then they won't have a business.

I have to say, I give up.  Surely if they have enough nous to start or buy a business that would have to be a starting point.

And I still don't understand that they couldn't see how this Labor government got them through the GFC.

Gravel

November 20. 2012 03:40 PM

42 long

It was more vaudeville than serious political discourse. Last night. Tony Jones is becomming a real lightweight interjecting and controlling. Rudd did OK last night. The bloke has a good brain but cannot be prime minister because he has a lot of baggage and his party  voted 2:1 against him. ( as he said)
  I recall TurnBULL suggesting incessantly that" THE PRIME MINISTER MUST RESIGN". When RUDD was there.
  Tony Jones along with Phillip Adams probably genuinely would like to see Rudd ahead of Gillard as PM. Those who have worked with BOTH in the Parliamentary Party support Gillard,by a BIG margin and THAT is what matters. When Phoney is kicked out he will find the same principle applies. Thats how it works MATE!
   TurnBULL didn't look impressive. trotting out the "faceless men bit" (hoping Rudd would take the bait). He is NOT the magic fix. (Godwin Grech remember). He speaks well at times but what are his policies? Where is the SOUL of the liberal Party? Does it have one? TurnBULL would get them across the line so they may go for that, and HANDLE HIM later. As soon qas the LieNP  are not getting the numbers there will be "movement at the station, where the word had got around"

42 long

November 20. 2012 04:07 PM

Wake Up

As usual the miserable little troll just makes snide remarks from under the bridge, never adding anything of value or contributing anything of substance, just happy to criticise, smear and foul the water with innuendo and recycled rhetoric......... maybe we should call him News Ltd !!!

FACT: I have owned and operated a small business for over 25 years and for over a decade under Howard all we got was a massive increase in administration overhead by way of the GST which resulted in HIGHER COMPLIANCE COSTS and DECREASED PRODUCTIVITY. If this wasn't bad enough, we watched in disbelief as big business welfare went into overdrive.

FACT: In contrast to this, under Gillard we have had no less than 12 new initiatives to ASSIST small business all of which are welcomed and appreciated by anyone who bothers to acknowledge them.

I certainly know who I WON'T be voting for.

Wake Up

November 20. 2012 04:34 PM

jaycee

For Chrissake stop bullsh*tting us all, ToM...You're pathetic..I have been a licenced contract builder for more years than I care to remember...I've had to quote jobs..seek materials to meet my quotes..check quality, design and build the product, sell the job, meet quality standards (and with the general public they are pretty damn high!)...I'm a "small businessman"..a lot of us here on this site are..you're the dumbo!...you're the oddball in this debate, what's your qualifications?..save : jerkoff!?

And I seriously believe you don't know what you are talking about.

jaycee

November 20. 2012 04:51 PM

Bacchus

What is objectionable is the implication that because one is not a businessman, one’s writings are invalid on the subject of business.  Equally objectionable is the paucity of counter arguments that comes from those who berate the messenger.  The most powerful way of countering an argument is to logically demonstrate its invalidity, but we seldom see that from our messenger-shooters.

LOL - you'll NEVER see that from ToM AA. He doesn't even recognise the difference between fact and opinion, proof and innuendo, evidence and spin.

All he's ever posted on others' blogs is talking points from his beloved Liberal party (denials aren't believed anymore ToM), and follow up demands that everyone should only talk about what he decides is the topic of discussion, more demands for attention.

Bacchus

November 20. 2012 05:13 PM

Ad astra

Gravel
Thanks for your comment.  It seems that the fact that the Labor Government got this nation through the GFC more successfully than any other is forgotten.  Perhaps businesspeople have also swallowed the disingenuous Abbott/Hockey rhetoric about the stimulus packages, in the same way they have swallowed their ‘talking down the economy’.

Wake Up
There’s no point in arguing the toss with ToM.  Although I listed as one of my explanations of the silence of businesspeople as: Indifferent relationships exist between business and government, that does not seem to cover his complaint that I “have ignored the specific reforms that business has sought”, even although ignoring specific reforms is likely one of the causes of the ‘indifferent relationships’.  Even if ToM were to re-read that section, I doubt if it would alter his gripe.  So, I won’t even suggest that.  He might feel I am ‘verballing’ him.  Remember, ToM is the only one allowed to verbal here.

Ad astra

November 20. 2012 07:02 PM

Tom of Melbourne

The following are legitimate areas of political debate, but Bacchus and many other ALP barrackers have a history of calling each “trolling”

•  Craig Thomson has a case to answer (“trolling”)  
•  The 2 unions in dispute with Qantas only represent about 25% of the workforce and aren’t supported by other Qantas unions (“trolling”)  
•  (Another Blogger) has diametrically changed her position on asylum seekers, so has Gillard (“trolling”)
•  Ad Astra has neglected to address the reform business has pressed, despite writing successive political threads about business (“trolling”)  

The use of “troll” is simply a different way of admitting that you’re all out of rationale, and clearly Bacchus and a range of others enjoy throwing “troll” at those that don’t share his devotion.  It’s their shortcut and avoids thinking.

Tom of Melbourne

November 20. 2012 07:15 PM

TalkTurkey


These two Tweets were consecutive. I retweeted them both. Marco is a Yank I like the tweets of:

Marco the Atheist‏@marco_iO9
I am #atheism, and I say that religious conviction has made this planet a de facto insane asylum for centuries. #jesustweeters #teamgod


And how about this eh. This is what makes Jews IMPOSSIBLE to reason or deal with. Don't blame me for saying it, it is Truth.

15mMark Dice‏@MarkDice

Popular Israeli Rabbi in says non-Jews exist only to serve Jews. Reported in the Jerusalem Post www.jpost.com/.../Article.aspx?id=191782
Retweeted by z harris

Perhaps it is time we consider the position of poor (i.e. not well-off) Germans in Weimar Germany between WW1 & 2, being bled white by British and French for reparations, and living in accommodation owned largely by Jews, and buying goods from shops owned largely by Jews. It is not hard to imagine families ousted without mercy for non-payment of rent, starving in the snow . . . And the smouldering seething hatred this would - and did - engender.

Almost nobody else has been game to say a word about Jews' special attitude of being the Chosen People, and their coalescence into a global Nazi-type movement controlling much of the world's media, precious metals, munitions and political power through its influence in the USA. Well I have said so, and so I do now. If I can criticize Christians and Moslems I sure have no compunction about doing so re Jews. They are perfectly open about their superiority to the rest of us. Unapologetic and self-righteous, and though I am prepared to make exceptions, it must be hard for any young Jew to escape this self-concept as it is reinforced all around, like Catholics' concept to sin.  

Jews' certainty of world domination is based on a propensity to coalesce against perceived enemies which is analogous to the Hell's Angels Dictum:
When an Angel strikes a non-Angel, all other Angels present will join in and strike the non-Angel too.

Note that I do not exempt British from responsibility. Nor Christians. But only Jews have this charming conviction, that other people are really no more than soulless animals, as the above article by a rabbi makes all too clear.

I am quite intimidated from even speaking out like this, and readers probably can guess why. But with Jews' murderous treatment of Gazans, ~ "an eye for an eyelash" as someone said today ~ I feel it is my moral imperative.

TalkTurkey

November 20. 2012 07:44 PM

uriah

Thank you Ad,once again for a very thought provoking article.
Another reason that business people do not speak out is that they get shouted down by the urgers (that is by companies and their organisations(mouthpieces) that have their own commercial interests and agendas to push) in business as in general society it is safer to keep your mouth shut-business people are no different to the rest of us and many companies have an apolitical stance as part of their company policy.However this doesnt mean that they dont think for themselves and vote accordingly.Many businesses will already have realised that it is in their best interest to vote Labor at the next election.It is also true that business as in society generally massive change is occuring especially in eg environmental and tech savvy businesses which are converting to become the new mainstream.Older business models and the old urgers who run them are rapidly being replaced by new models and by younger business people with new ideas.
Dear Fellow Swordsters-Re ToM
ToM is not a troll and should not be barred from TPS but he is also not an ex Labor voter and is definetly not an ex union official.ToM is merely a Liberal party hack whos job it is to play the devils advocate on this site and hopefully for him to sour the agenda and thus turn away new followers.Personnally this will be my first and last reference to Tom of Collingwood.
PS apologies to the residents and supporters of Collingwood.

uriah

November 20. 2012 07:47 PM

TalkTurkey

"Perhaps the first and best thing to do is to remove that rather large wart from your palm..."

That's very funny jaycee. Think he'll get it?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This bloody Manflu hasn't left me yet, still coughing bad and with surprising amount of body pain, and feeling absolutely feeble - but it's J**** who is coughing fit to die - the worst coughing fits ever I heard, and she is immuno-compromised having lost her spleen some 4 years ago by surgical misadventure. [Take on board: Don't even think about getting lap-band surgery!] So since this is a virus, and you might as well use a rifle on a cloud of mosquitoes as use antibiotics on it, I am scared rigid that her illness could get much worse. I say again: Get your flu shots folks. This flu is a potential killer - as, don't forget, various strains of flu are indeed.

It is no fun to creep into your partner's room after the coughing has stopped for a while - (I'm sleeping on the couch atm because I don't want to wake her once she gets to sleep) - and stand and watch to see that she is still breathing.    

TalkTurkey

November 20. 2012 08:08 PM

Jason

Ad,
  ToM likes to think he's one step ahead of the rest of us! so with that in mind and as you can edit and put links to any of the rubbish he writes, and rather than ToM thinking he's made a fool of you imagine the "squeal" if you put a link to whatever you like?

PS
Let me at the controls!

Jason

November 20. 2012 08:19 PM

jaycee

So now we have the bloody ABC. on 7.30 beating up the leadership non-event AGAIN! and there is that major bullsh*t artist : Uhlmann, doing his worst..
I tell you Conroy..Stop being a dickhead and use your power on the ABC. or lose it!
Or are you so thick you can't see it?

jaycee

November 20. 2012 08:33 PM

Ad astra

uriah
Thank you for your comments.  There may be truth in what you say about some being unwilling to speak out for fear of retribution from their employer.

TT
I hope J is soon on the improve.  The flu has been nasty.

Jason
I'm not sure what you are suggesting.

I'm calling it a day.

Ad astra

November 20. 2012 08:46 PM

jaycee

Jason, I believe you have similar sentiments to mine in regards the trolls....: Ol'Joe Stalin was too soft!!

jaycee

November 20. 2012 08:54 PM

Rocco

Just reading on  here about Q and A is enough to convince me that I made a wise decision some years ago to never, and  I mean never , watch it again. Was it Paul Keating who asked why anybody would  go on the program.

Rocco

November 20. 2012 09:04 PM

Bacchus

<i>Jason
I'm not sure what you are suggesting.</i>

It was pure evil AA - brilliant Wink

Bacchus

November 20. 2012 09:53 PM

TalkTurkey

Trolls? What trolls?

Look I've been saying this ever since I first wrote here,

If you're going to acknowledge them at all

JUST HAVE FUN WITH TROLLS!

That's what they're for,
except to ignore.
Which they abhor.
Who cares they come back for more!

Trolls by any definition are ill-willed and out to cause discord, well they're very much up against it witht TPS.

They are not at all important, and if no-one answers them, it's very disheartening for them . . . Water off a Duck's Back to us, unless you let it get to you. And why would you do that?


There's a bit more to it than that though. This is Ad astra's site, and we owe it to him to give him no more aggravation than possible. I really do appeal to genuinely goodwilled Swordsfolks not to feed the trolls, not to address them directly especially. That can be a bit like Pig in the Middle, we can talk to each other about them, that's OK, . . . And if  you must feed them at all just give 'em a bit of fairy floss.  

TalkTurkey

November 20. 2012 10:11 PM

Jason

Normank,
       If you're about that "Rowan Dean" is now on the replay of the drum!

Jason

November 21. 2012 07:11 AM

Lyn



TODAY’S LINKS

Liberals afraid of ideas, Andrew Elder, Politically Homeless
The childcare centre that Margie Abbott runs at St Ives opens no earlier than 8.30 am and closes at 3.30 pm - utterly useless for anyone who works full time. Even to speak of "labour market flexibility" would require Abbott to deal with workplace reform, the third rail of conservative politics. It's easier for him to hide behind the grey cardigan of the Productivity Commission than take such a stand.
http://andrewelder.blogspot.com.au/

AWU scandal a storm in a teacup?, Ben Eltham, The Drum
Compared to Whitewater, the AWU scandal is a storm in a teacup. But even if Gillard was somehow implicated, so what? As we know, no-one has ever been charged in relation to this affair. Nor, despite claims of missing files, does there appear to have been a cover up. Although the Prime Minister's involvement will continue to drive media interest, the scandal has no constitutional or legal relevance for her fitness for office.
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4380362.html

The Australian skews climate science… again, Graham Readfearn, Independent Australia
“COOL spell to chill hearts of climate activists,” says the clickbait headline in yesterday’s The Australian (19/11/12). The story, a reprint from the Sunday Times’ Jonathan Leake, is just the kind of editorialised-opinion-disguised-as-news which The Australian has become known for whenever it reports about climate change. Let’s have a look through this
www.independentaustralia.net/.../

Royal commission a step closer, but will it be on Abbott’s watch?, Bernard Keane, Coff’s Outlook
chances are this will be Abbott’s royal commission. If, as seems likely, he leads the Coalition into the 2013 election, and if, as seems likely, they defeat Labor, the bulk of this commission will be conducted on the watch of a political leader defined, unfairly or not, by his ardent Catholicism, that at least the first term of his period in office (assuming he doesn’t call a blood oath carbon price double dissolution election and promptly loses
coffsoutlook.com/.../

Turnbull calls out Abbott’s carbon hypocrisy (again) Giles Parkinson, Renew Economy
It is becoming increasingly clear that the Opposition will find it nearly impossible to deliver on Abbott’s pledge to repeal the carbon price. And for months, as we pointed out in July, it has only been described as a pledge to repeal the carbon tax, not the carbon price. It’s a subtle but critically important distinction, and one that Turnbull was keen to highlight on ABC TV’s Q&A program
reneweconomy.com.au/.../turnbull-calls-out-abbotts-carbon-hypocrisy-again-62158

Deflation: No ordinary accident, Stephen Koukoulas. Business Spectator
Global markets are still coming to terms with the fact that inflation is dead. For investors, the environment of entrenched low inflation means that average annual returns above 5 per cent will look terrific. While inflation stays low – or as seems likely, falls further – annual investment returns under 5 per cent will be more likely than not.
www.businessspectator.com.au/.../inflation-markets-interest-rates-G7-US-Fed-central-pd20121120-27RH

ALP: the NSW factional smell, gary Sauer-Thompson, Public Opinion
The Australian, continues to obsess about what was going on in the Australian Workers Union (AWU) in the early 1990s. It is so dedicated to the Gillard Government’s demise that it ignores the significance of the World Bank spelling out what the world is likely to experience if it warmed by 4 degrees Celsius
www.sauer-thompson.com/.../alp-the-nsw-sme.php

NEWS: Opposition politician encourages government Minister to challenge PM and destabilise government, Jeremy Sear,Anonymous Lefty
Simply repeating Turnbull’s bullshit for seven paragraphs – particularly the vacuous “faceless men and factions” thing as if there’s a non-faction faction in the ALP and there aren’t factions and schemers in the Liberal Party – wastes the time of politically-savvy readers and utterly misleads everyone else.
anonymouslefty.wordpress.com/.../news-opposition-politician-encourages-government-minister-to-

Doubt now exists over all NSW mining exploration licences and mining leases granted since 1991, Clarence Girl,North Coast Voices
Given the large number of exploration licences that have been granted over land on the NSW North Coast it might be advisable for concerned residents and community groups to investigate the application background of these licences, as well as the state political donation history of those mining companies involved.
http://northcoastvoices.blogspot.com.au/

Nag, Nag, Nag, Nag, Nag, Wendy Harmer, The Hoopla
“The press gallery and most men could not cope with this speech. Now they all seem to be trying to gloss over it by calling time on ‘personal attacks’ without referring to the main issue – dreadful misogyny by and on behalf of the Opposition that the PM dealt with brilliantly.“However, nobody – Govt. or Opposition – really wants to fully acknowledge that she did this, or why it was necessary.
http://thehoopla.com.au/nagnagnagnagnag/

Today’s Front Pages
Australia Newspaper Front Pages for 21 November 2012
www.frontpagestoday.co.uk/index.cfm

Lyn

November 21. 2012 08:15 AM

Ad astra

LYN'S DAILY LINKS updated: www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...-DAILY-LINKS.aspx

Ad astra

November 21. 2012 08:35 AM

jaycee

That Ben Eltham piece on the ABC.'s The Drum is a beauty!...Not for Mr. Eltham's observations, erudite as they are, but for the stupid right-wing commentry that the moderators view as "balanced" comment.
BALANCED!! the repetitive, dishonest malicious gossip, direct from that sh*t-sheet ; The Australian, by the same name posters who deny climate change, the GFC.,rule of law and all those other pesky democratic niceties, demonstrate why the Minister for Communications better quick find a clause in the contract to go through the national broadcaster not, like a pinch of salts, but rather; a whole truckload!
The continued pitch to attempt to destabilise the govt' with the "leadership issue" is once again headlining the online ABC. news.
I mean, for us viewers who want a little more depth in our national broadcaster and do not, like your average LNP. supporter, sit around fluttering our index-finger over our lips while making a humming noise, I think it is high time a hue and cry was raised in the social media to waken the Rip Van Winkles in the Dept of Communications and give Mr. Scott and his coiterie of LNP. sphincter-suckers the big push!

jaycee

November 21. 2012 11:15 AM

Ad astra

Hi Lyn
I managed to read all your links early today.  Ben Eltham’s article on New Matilda is a great read, putting into perspective as it does all the media frenzy about Julia Gillard and the S&G matter.  Wendy Harmer’s piece on Hoopla is good fun.  All men should read it!

The article on Independent Australia: The Australian skews climate science… again, has a revealing dynamic graphic at its end.  It demonstrates how, by segmenting global temperature variation into short periods of around seven to ten years, skeptics disingenuously argue that the global temperature is not rising, perhaps even falling, whereas when the period 1970-2012 is viewed as a whole the rising trend is obvious even to Blind Freddy.  It is one of the most telling graphics I have ever seen.  I wonder what counter the skeptics could possibly mount.

Ad astra

November 21. 2012 11:16 AM

Lyn

Good Morning Ad and Everybody,

Funny that Dennis Shanahan is in the Telegraph with his article this morning.

Jaycee I agree with you,  the article by Ben Eltham on the S&G gossip is one of the best I have read.

The article in the AFR by Alan Stokes must be satire funny though
it's not a bit funny.

Twitterverse for you:-

Bushfire Bill
Posted Wednesday, November 21, 2012 at 8:22 am
Snake-oil salesman Malcolm reckons that if he can get close enough to Abbott, get the public to believe Abbott’s their only choice and then, when the punters realize this, they run away in panic, he’ll be the last man standing.

Kill him with kindness, Mal.

blogs.crikey.com.au/.../#comment-1477475

Bushfire Bill
Posted Wednesday, November 21, 2012 at 8:34 am

This is from the political editor of the newspaper that is lasciviously beating up the S&G affair, promoting Ruddstoration, never has a good word to say for anything the government does, and who has in the past called for Gillard’s resignation (over Bob Carr’s ascension) because Shanahan got it wrong!

Shannas was so upset over that he had a break down of some kind and was out of the game, literally off work, for months.

If he keeps up this cloud-cuckoo stuff much longer he’ll be needing more time off, I suspect.
blogs.crikey.com.au/.../#comment-1477480

Team player: Malcom Turnbull won't challenge Tony Abbott for Liberal leadership despite popularity , Dennis Shanahan
As Labor uses Mr Turnbull's standing with votyers to try to drive a wedge into the Liberals, Mr Abbott and Mr Turnbull have been in "close and regular personal contact" co-ordinating how to handle the prickly political issues of Mr Abbott's defeat of Mr Turnbull as Liberal leader, Mr Turnbull's continuing popular appeal, policy differences over carbon pricing and Julia Gillard's campaign against Mr Abbott.
www.dailytelegraph.com.au/.../story-fndo

PM, Abbott slam door on GST changes , AFR
Former Liberal leader John Hewson, regarded as the father of the GST, says a focus on short-term politics ahead of long-term economic reform risks years of low growth and rolling recessions.
www.afr.com/.../pm_abbott_slam_door_on_gst_changes_0hjaIXjalotBlGkKDrCn0M

Luke Mansillo ‏
marvellous news ALP is ahead in 2PP http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2012/4840/ … #auspol Guess Abbott won't live in the lodge after all #phew https://t.co/7Lr3paYx

10-point plan for Turnbull as PM, Alan Stokes, AFR
No, the biggest issue facing concerned Australians is surely how to get Malcolm Turnbull to become prime minister.
The election. All shareholders in the great floated man run as Mmmmm for Malcolm candidates and enjoy a swing of 50.1 per cent, controlling both Houses. Everyone feels ownership of their MPs who, under Malcolm (and even Kevin), get on with fixing the joint. TICK
www.afr.com/.../point_plan_for_turnbull_as_pm_gloj34dKRcgeq036szLXaN

Lots of laughs but no election advice for PM
But the Australian Prime Minister joked, laughed and drank wine with the world's most powerful man when they sat together at a gala dinner in the Cambodian capital Phnom Penh on Monday night

Looking the odd man out, at times, during the dinner was Ms Gillard's partner, Tim Mathieson, who was also at the top table at the official dinner of the East Asian Summit, a forum of 18 world leaders to discuss security, economic and trade issues.
www.smh.com.au/.../...e-for-pm-20121120-29o5d.html

Whitefellas fail to grasp reality, Lindy Edwards
Tony Abbott's attempt to explain 'authentic Aborigines' was more than just rude.
www.smh.com.au/.../...-reality-20121120-29o13.html

SmileSmileSmileSmileSmile

Lyn

November 21. 2012 12:15 PM

TalkTurkey

Completely no onthread but one of my personal hobbyhorses.

It has to do with saving the planet!

From Twitter, acknowledgements to

Denise Allen‏@denniallen

@MikeKellyMP ...and Industrial hemp 2 Mike! NZ is jumping ahead of us! We cld lead the world/save/create Tassie jobs/www.independentaustralia.net/.../

Retweeted by david ewart
Hide conversation Reply Retweet Favorite More


TalkTurkey

November 21. 2012 12:26 PM

TalkTurkey

Lyn's linked us to
Luke Mansillo ‏
marvellous news ALP is ahead in 2PP http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2012/4840/ … #auspol Guess Abbott won't live in the lodge after all #phew https://t.co/7Lr3paYx

Here's the top/bottom line:

ALP 50.5% (UP 4%) REGAINS SLIGHT LEAD OVER L-NP 49.5% (DOWN 4%)
GENDER GAP OPENS UP AS WOMEN FAVOUR ALP (55.5%) CF. L-NP (44.5%)
WHILE MEN FAVOUR L-NP (54.5%) CF. ALP (45.5%)



Finding No. 4840 - This face-to-face Morgan Poll on Federal voting intention was conducted over the last two weekends, November 10/11 & 17/18, 2012 with an Australia-wide cross-section of 1,573 Australian electors aged 18+, of all electors surveyed a low 2% (unchanged) did not name a party. Face-to-face polling is more accurate than telephone polling due to the higher response rate achieved compared to other forms of polling including telephone polling and Internet polling.: November 20, 2012


In mid November support for the ALP is 50.5% (up 4%) cf. L-NP 49.5% (down 4%) on a two-party preferred basis according to the latest face-to-face Morgan Poll conducted over the last two weekends, November 10/11 & 17/18, 2012.

Today’s face-to-face Morgan Poll shows the ALP primary vote is 36.5% (up 1% in 2 weeks) and the L-NP 38.5% (down 4.5%). Among the minor parties Greens support is up by 1.5% to 11.5% and Independents/ Others is up 2% to 13.5%.

If a Federal election were held today the result would be too close to call and would depend on minor party preferences according to this face-to-face Morgan Poll.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So Why is this not only not trending, but has hardly seen the light of day?


TalkTurkey

November 21. 2012 12:37 PM

Jason

Aa,
  Grogs piece on the Drum today!
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4382230.html

Jason

November 21. 2012 12:41 PM

Ad astra

Hi Lyn
Dennis Shanahan is beyond redemption.  He is so obsessed with the prospect of an Abbott government that anything that threatens that fantasy needs to be dismissed.  So Malcolm needs to verballed into not challenging dear Tony.  His musings would be entertaining flights of imagination if he were not so serious.  I hope no one shows him the latest Morgan poll.  I don’t have time for Dennis but I wouldn’t wish apoplexy upon him.

What a great photo of Julia with Barack, but then the SMH is not News Limited paper.  News Limited files only the less flattering photos.

Ad astra

November 21. 2012 01:08 PM

jaycee

TT...."Why is this not seeing the light of day"...Because the bloody MSM. INCL' OUR!!? ABC. is biased beyond belief...Wakey, wakey...Conroy...there's work to do!..Get rid of that cabal of Liberal Party arshlikkers and put Martin Fells in there to fix the joint up!

jaycee

November 21. 2012 02:41 PM

Ad astra

Folks
If you are as irritated as I am with the relentless and at times quite rude questioning of interviewees by the ABC’s Sabra Lane, you will enjoy hearing Bob Carr put her back in her box several times as she questions him insistently about the letter to Carr from Anwar Ibrahim, Malaysian Opposition Leader, asking for Australian assistance in ensuring a fair upcoming election there, the Amnesty International report on Nauru, and the Israeli-Hamas conflict.

You will find the audio here: www.abc.net.au/.../s3637507.htm

I’ll be out for a few hours.

Ad astra

November 21. 2012 02:43 PM

42 long

I'm not surprised, ( but I am pleased and it is inline with all my calls on this forum)
   The more time passes and the more FACTS  that emerg the better Labor's fortunes will be. The LieNP and supporters have brought out all the shit, told so many untruths, done so many dirty deals,ignored climate science, moved so many suspension of standing orders motions, had all the support from The MSM and abc too.(NO capitals deliberately. They are a disgrace)..
  Australian are NOT being fooled by propaganda that is so bad it is an insult to thinking people. The wake-up seems to be lead by the voting women of Australia. Good on you Girls!!! and a special thanks to the good girls in the Labor Parliament. You contrast very favourably with those on the opposite side.
  

42 long

November 21. 2012 02:54 PM

2353

While the trend is evident, I wouldn't be breaking out the champagne over the Morgan Poll result for the following reasons.

1) It is only one poll

2) A 4% movement in two weeks is large.

The only way to get a exact poll result is to poll the entire community - and even the Government only does that every few years, so pollsters poll a "sample" of the community.  These polls come with a sampling error of around 3% due to the statistical process used.  So the real result for Morgan is somewhere between 47.5% and 53.5% for the ALP.

The other two things to remember are firstly, that Governments in Australia have been sworn in after earning under 50.01% of the vote in the past.  Secondly, with a "too close to call" result, it depends on the margins in individual seats.  To do well in the election, the effort will be made in marginal seats where either the LNP or ALP feel they can pinch the seat from the other side.  Obviously a MP sitting on a 15% margin is less likely to be dislodged than on sitting on 1.5%.

You could see the strategy in the US Presidential election, where Romney spent weeks in Ohio then at the last minute switched to Pennsylvania & Virginia.  Clearly his internal polling was indicating he had a better chance in Pennsylvania & Virginia of obtaining the support of the majority of the voters.  Obama won Pennsylvania with 52% and Virginia with 50.8% of the vote.  Obama also won Ohio by 50.1%

2353

November 21. 2012 02:55 PM

2353

Forgot to add that Newpoll is owned by NewsCorp and Nielsen is owned by Fairfax - why would they give a competitor some free advertising?

2353

November 21. 2012 04:19 PM

jaycee

Earlier, had to suffer through an interview on ABC. with LOTO and his patsy..:She of the Neuremburg Defence "I was only doing my job"...Hey!..How is it that the Simon Wiesnthal Centre can apply for the extradition of ONE man suspected of a crime in the middle of a war-zone and we cannot bring those responsible for the deaths (and the STALLING of a hearing for)of hundreds to a court?
I see their witness has applied to return to Australia to give "evidence"....Haha!..Of course he wants to come to Aussie...so he can then dissapear and not be taken to court in any number of Asian countries he has apparently done dirty deeds in!
I am looking forward to next week...they have thrown everything at the PM. I am looking forward to some of the rubbish being returned.

jaycee

November 21. 2012 04:29 PM

LadyInRed

Ad astra

Thanks for the Bob Carr interview link. He certainly handled that interview well. He made Lane look really rather foolish with her questions when she refused to give up on them. Poingnant questions there for Xenophon the colonialist. Just what does he want Australia to do? Methinks there is a tiny bit of arrogance in this .....if you can't run your country then let us do it for you? (us arrogant?....never). Did we pop over to Zimbabwe and show them how to run an election? No. Funny thing sovereignty.

LadyInRed

November 21. 2012 04:39 PM

Gravel

jaycee @ 4.19pm

Um, I read your comment a couple of times, you seem excited/upset about something but I couldn't quite work out what is was.  You have got me curious. Smile

Gravel

November 21. 2012 04:45 PM

Tom of Melbourne

I find it amusing that people here think that business organisations such as the AIG are pressing for policy changes that aren’t supported by business.

Can one of these speculative types actually provide some evidence for this assertion? They should recall that the AIG specifically has always sought to remain apolitical; it declined to support the defence of Workchoices campaign that some businesses and groups funded.

Really, there is just so much ill-informed speculation here, it’s quite hilarious.

Incidentally, (to correct the record here) how is it that one of the contributors is able to incorrectly assert that I wasn’t an ALP voter or a union official?

In fact, as I’ve pointed out, I was an active ALP member and an elected official.

Fact free speculation is the norm here.

Tom of Melbourne

November 21. 2012 04:45 PM

LadyInRed

ooops actually we did participate in overseeing Zimbabwe in 2000 elections, but the circumstances there I think we were invited. Bad choice for an analogy.

LadyInRed

November 21. 2012 05:09 PM

Gravel

Ad Astra

That recorded Bob Carr interview was fantastic, he turned the Gotcha back on her, I'm still laughing, thanks for that. I used to listen to AM, PM and the World Today, but gave up about 12 months ago because of their horrible reporting and attitude.

Gravel

November 21. 2012 05:11 PM

Jason

Fact free speculation is the norm here.

ToM tell us something we don't know! every day we put up with your fact free opinion on whatever subject you care to crap on about.

Then you say "In fact, as I've pointed out, I was an active ALP member and an elected official. "
But such is your character when thing get hard you QUIT, because you're a quitter!

I noticed Grog who has the same qualifications as you "so you say" wrote another fine piece on the Drum today, and you serve up your usual poorly thought out brain farts!
Which online university did you buy them from?  

Jason

November 21. 2012 05:12 PM

jaycee

Apologies, Gravel...I was talking about Tabbott and JBishop...Julie Bishop, as you know, has been leading the "attack-pack" on the PM. with the AWU thing. All the while she was the defence lawyer for the big corporations that stalled as long as they could (in some cases till the victim died) so as not to pay compensation in the asbestos claims.
Now, Mr. Blewett, their chief witness has decided to accept Newslimedited offer to come back to Aust' to give evidence.

jaycee

November 21. 2012 06:26 PM

Jason

Marilyn,
       A serious question for once! What is it "we" I assume here a the political sword aren't doing that you think we should?
You're an "advocate" in this area what is it you want?

Jason

November 21. 2012 06:43 PM

Ad astra

LadyinRed, Gravel
Like you, I’ve been longing for someone to put the rude Sabra Lane in her place; Bob Carr did.

2353
While we know not to get too excited about a single poll, Dennis Shanahan has never got the message that on its own it is not predictive so far from the election.  All the Morgan poll does is add in to the trend, but on his past form it will scare poor old Dennis.

Ad astra

November 21. 2012 06:45 PM

Ad astra

Jason
Thank you for the Greg Jericho link.  Another well documented and well argued piece.

Ad astra

November 21. 2012 06:56 PM

Wake Up

What about Abbott's 'Slush Fund'...............

www.smh.com.au/.../1061663791381.html

Wake Up

November 21. 2012 07:12 PM

jaycee

I'm getting a bit cheesed off with the opposition using the parliament as their own private courthouse! There was the Thom(no P)son affair, then the Slipper affair and now the "slush" affair! Since when is the house a private vendetta star-chamber?

jaycee

November 21. 2012 08:05 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Greg Jericho neglects to mention the issues of concern regarding the trend in industrial relations-
•  Cost overruns in infrastructure (eg Wonthaggi desal plant)
•  Return of thuggish/lawless behaviour in construction (eg Grollo)
•  Undermining viability of the biggest employer of apprentices (Qantas)
•  Tourism (Qantas)
•  Lack of investment in manufacturing (expansion & overhaul gets construction treatment)

Tom of Melbourne

November 21. 2012 08:11 PM

Robynne

Once again I find solace at The Political Sword. There was a time when I would have gone to the Abbort broadcasting situation, but alas no more. The Sabra"oive gota angle thatll wedge ya" approach today was the ultimate disgrace by the so-called national broadcaster.
These yobs have hi-jacked any perception of balance,fairness or journalism in their indecent haste to create a new government. Never mind Sabra, that Malaysia is a sovereign country and that us yobbos have no bloody right to interfere in their elections, just keep right on suggesting that we are not doing enough to run Malaysia.
The abbort bc has done many things to disappoint me of late but this has taken the stupidity of their prize idiot to a new low.

No bloody wonder the fools in business are getting the wrong message, they probably listen/watch the abbortbc.
Following on from the stroking of ego that occured on Monday we all now know that the national broadcaster has as much credibility as any rubbish owned media.
How sad is that?

Robynne

November 21. 2012 08:19 PM

Ad astra

Robynne
I'm glad you find solace here.

It is sad about the national broadcaster.  I see tonight 7.30 is on the S&G matter again.  The media says it won't go away, which is because the media won't let it go away.

Ad astra

November 21. 2012 08:23 PM

jaycee

That 7.30 presser w/Blewitt has to be some sort of joke!..What was achieved ?..."I think I recall this, when I was shown that I thought ;Oh yeah!...That old thing..yeah!...I think I remember.."....Talk about "cash-for-comment"!!!!

jaycee

November 21. 2012 08:25 PM

jaycee

Blewitt....: " Better get a lawyer, son...better get a real good one!"

jaycee

November 21. 2012 08:27 PM

Michael

Well, doesn't Ralph Blewett look like a shady little man? Certainly did on tonight's 7:30.

It's so nice of his supporters (and presumably the financiers of his trip and legal affairs???) to be providing the documents that he's saying are filling in the gaps in his memory for him.

I believe the word is... "coaching".



Why does Michael Smith always look so shifty?

Rhetorical question.

Michael

November 21. 2012 08:58 PM

Ad astra

jaycee, Michael
If Ralph Blewett, described by Leigh Sales as a ‘bagman’, a man who feels the need to seek immunity from prosecution, and who has been living overseas for 15 years presumably to avoid prosecution, is the best that News Limited can come up with, they are truly scraping the bottom of a very dirty barrel. But that’s what we have come to expect from News Limited.  Remember Steve Lewis is involved in this story too.  Grech, Ashby/Slipper and now Blewett/Wilson.

Ad astra

November 21. 2012 09:00 PM

Ad astra

Folks
I'm calling it a day.

Ad astra

November 21. 2012 09:02 PM

BSA Bob

Bad as 7.30 was with Blewett I suspect that's the best there'll be. What a spiv from Central Casting!
I put this question up on PB as well. I'd like to know how far up the line decisions about immunity from prosecution are made, & who gets a say in it.

BSA Bob

November 21. 2012 09:15 PM

jaycee

Friends..fellow posters..Surely, surely..our national broadcaster cannot get any worse?....nor more stupid! What has become of the pursuit of noble investigation and research? Mark Scott has brought Aunty into so much disrepute that it is an embarrassment...no!; worse, worse than an embarrassment..it has become a plagariser of Newslimedited sewerage....I am trying but failing to transmit my feelings of absolute disgust in the national broadcaster......Our ABC...so very sad.

jaycee

November 21. 2012 09:24 PM

Sir Ian Crisp

Trolls? What trolls?

They are not at all important, and if no-one answers them, it's very disheartening for them . . . Water off a Duck's Back to us, unless you let it get to you. And why would you do that?

There's a bit more to it than that though. This is Ad astra's site, and we owe it to him to give him no more aggravation than possible. I really do appeal to genuinely goodwilled Swordsfolks not to feed the trolls, not to address them directly especially. That can be a bit like Pig in the Middle, we can talk to each other about them, that's OK, . . . And if  you must feed them at all just give 'em a bit of fairy floss.  
TalkTurkey


He was waiting for Rx to put his foot in something? Limpy put his foot into Skelly while she was ill, well he's put a foot seriously wrong as far as I'm concerned, he has no manners and he offers nothing. So I'm-a put my foot into him wherever and whenever I feel, even though he's a soft and stupid and self-inflated target.
Talk Turkey


Once again jive turkey emerges from his tumid swamp to contradict himself. He’ll put his foot into me when and where he pleases but he’ll ignore me also.

Sir Ian Crisp

November 21. 2012 09:56 PM

Jason

"Greg Jericho neglects to mention"

So tell me ToM who are you that we should stand up and pay attention to?
Talks cheap put up or shut up!

Jason

November 21. 2012 10:25 PM

Miglo

Greg Jericho neglects to mention the issues of concern regarding the trend in industrial relations-
•  Cost overruns in infrastructure (eg Wonthaggi desal plant)
•  Return of thuggish/lawless behaviour in construction (eg Grollo)
•  Undermining viability of the biggest employer of apprentices (Qantas)
•  Tourism (Qantas)
•  Lack of investment in manufacturing (expansion & overhaul gets construction treatment)


Perhaps, ToM, instead of telling every blog owner what they should be addressing, you could perhaps start up your own blog. I am sure that the issues you raised above will be the first ones discussed in your new blog.

Please provide us all with a link to it once it is established.

Miglo

November 21. 2012 10:35 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Thank you for your attention.

It's pleasing that my informed comments are so widely read.

Tom of Melbourne

November 21. 2012 10:47 PM

Jason

Miglo,
     No use ToM starting a blog he only values one opinion
His own!
Much easier to criticize those who are willing to have a go than do it himself.

Jason

November 21. 2012 11:01 PM

jaycee

I have noticed that "ToM" not only seems to have several email gravitars, but in some posts "he/she" shows a good knowledge of his subject, while in others has the language of stupidity...indeed, on other sites where he appears, "he" even "sounds" like a she! It would appear that the troll has multiple personalities..or perhaps, as I suggested in an earlier post, "he" has franchised out his stupidity....whatever the tedious truth, it is little more than a right-wing boil.
Delete the bastard, AA.....He is of little worth.
Crisp?...He does sooo much of his dough on the ponies so he has to work at two jobs a day and he can only post at night!...poor bastard....literally!
Delete the sucker too, AA..to give him the opportunity to work three jobs a day...it's what he deserves!

jaycee

November 21. 2012 11:25 PM

Miglo

Thank you for your attention.

You don't have my attention. It's just that you're in my face.

Miglo

November 21. 2012 11:37 PM

Miglo

True, Jason. He prefers telling other people what to do instead of actually doing something himself. His laziness is on clear display for all to see.

Miglo

November 22. 2012 05:04 AM

Marilyn

Are the racist little Gillard lovers happy with her latest brutal forced dumping of children for years in prison in our names.

You make me sick.

Marilyn

November 22. 2012 05:55 AM

TalkTurkey

Away in a Manger - EVERYBODY knows?

First version I found on Youtube was the new nasty plastic tune.
I thought instantly Urghh that's horrible and went back.

Next version was the pretty, old one. And it is pretty too.
And the very first comment was exactly my thought: -

Thank God*..  The original version, the way it should be sung.
I hate all the modern, r n b sounding versions i come across on youtube.
Christmas carols should be sung in an angelic way like this woman here.  Shes good.

womblewandering 11 months ago 54


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vftEpuxUo1E

*[No, Thank Dog TT]

So anyway . . .

Away Down In Canberra

Away down in Canberra, no crown on his head,
The shouldabeen Lord Tony was a-weeping in bed
The stars of the Media looked down where he lay
The ones who knew Tony would be Master one day.

His popularity is a-lowering, and down go his stakes:
Grattan and Henderson and their pack got the shakes!
We love you Tiny Tony, and long may you lie
In that bed of your own making in your own private sty.

We need you Tiny Tony, and we want you to stay
As the wonderful LOTO that we see here today!
Bless all the Coalition who are now going spare
Cos' they'll soon blow away like the rest of your hair!

                     Smile

Ooh that was EASY!

All the rhymes are the same . . . Me like dat. It's a template really, using someone else's tunes and meters and rhymes. Bit cheeky if it's a contemporary song (but singing ads are more offensive by far) but hymns and carols are just fair game. Any dead people's are, never mind who thinks they own copyright on them, that is disgusting, remember the Men at Work/Land Down Under/Kookaburra sits fiasco?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McsWKczU6wc

The funny thing about Abbortt's position now is, he is such a rotting corpse that we really do want him to stay, but we also want division in their rotting ranks, Turdball does that without even trying,
so the strategy is . . .
right now we chant Out Tony Out!
but if there is an actual challenge, then we chant,
We Want Tony!

Notice that *J*U*L*I*A*s popularity is higher than the Labor Party's whereas Abbbortt's is 'way lower than his mob's. Imagine how that feels to those who have thrown themselves behind him, to find now that he is one of the all-time most unpopular LOTO's!

Abbortt remember
Leigh Sales last September ?!
Challenge in November
Dead meat by December!

What will happen in the LNP Party room next week,
the last week of Parliament for the year?


IS EVERYBODY CHORTLING? I am.

Politics, yummmmm.

TalkTurkey

November 22. 2012 07:05 AM

Truth Seeker

TT, nice re-write.

Green troll, the feeling is mutual.
You and your rude and abusive comments are not wanted here so why don't you just take the hint and POQ, or are you so lonely (not surprising) and desperate to be heard that you hang around like a bad smell where you are treated with derision or just scrolled both of which is exactly what you deserve.

do yourself and us a favour and GO AWAY.

Truth Seeker

November 22. 2012 07:34 AM

42 long

  About Nauru, wasn't Scott Morescum telling us all not long ago that these facilities were out there more or less "ready to go" immediately. Another piece of bullshit. Now he is decrying the slowness of Bowen in renovating the "mess" that Nauru is. Funny how quickly good condition becomes nothing good in the tropics or have we seen just another example of opportunistic twisting of the facts the LieNP run with.

42 long

November 22. 2012 07:46 AM

Lyn



TODAY’S LINKS

Menzies House Shows Its True Colours, Dan Gulbery, The Daily Derp
Menzies House, the website set up by Cory “Bestiality” Bernardi, to promote “conservative, centre-right and libertarian” causes, has shown that it is not concerned about the “centre-right” at all. A recent post on the site proves it is firmly on the ultra-hard-right end of the spectrum.
thedailyderp.net/.../

The take-it-or-leave-it Trans-Pacific Partnership, Matt Mitchell, Independent Australia
Our own opinion is that the final agreement as taken to cabinet (in secret) will require a significant change to our current Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme (PBS).  It will also, most likely, place substantial new responsibilities on ISPs in relation to policing and reporting on the activities of ISP users and customers.
www.independentaustralia.net/.../

Tedious and boring , Gary Sauer-Thompson, Public Opinion
It's horse race politics connected with movement in opinion polls--who is going to stab who, when and how---often based on off the record messages from nameless insiders in the various warring camps. In doing so the media operate as a pack, interview one another about their speculations on the state of play on cable television, write an article reporting what was said about their special insights as insiders.
www.sauer-thompson.com/.../tedious-and-bor.php

Our Role In The Climate Deadlock, Ben Eltham, New Matilda
But Australia can play a bigger global role than we are currently by limiting the export of our fossil fuels, which would help to drive up the price of these global commodities. We also need to start saving for the massive task of climate adaptation, which will entail vast engineering projects to protect much of Australia’s coastal property from inundation. Rapidly increasing the price of the carbon tax would be an excellent start.
newmatilda.com/.../our-role-climate-deadlock

Do you trust this guy? Miglo, Café Whispers
Really? Why would anyone want to single you out to show you documents obtained under Freedom of Information? And who? In my opinion it’s not Julia Gillard who needs to come clean, it’s those who sit across from her in Parliament.
cafewhispers.wordpress.com/.../

The Roof Is On Fire, Peter Wicks, Wixxy Leaks
Barry O’Farrell became Australia’s newest Billionaire last month when someone in treasury stumbled upon a Billion Dollars that Treasurer “MYOB Mike” Baird lost. “MYOB Mike” Baird clearly has the budgeting ability of a baboon, the mathematical talent of a malley bull, and the accounting ability and arithmetic skills of a complete ass, and that’s on a good day. But, Barry, while not really a billionaire, has a billion bucks to spend now, and spend it he isn’t.
wixxyleaks.com/2012/11/21/the-roof-is-on-fire/

What does the data say about Australia's IR war?, Greg Jericho, The Drum
Perhaps the first order of business on the panel might be for everyone to take a deep breath and realise the economy is not in tatters, unions aren't in control, wages growth if anything is below average, and that just because a headline says something that doesn't make it so.
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4382230.html

A cut debate that doesn’t run deep, Stephen Koukoulas, Business Spectator
For the chicken littles like Hockey, a few home truths need to be laid out.Any sensible policy observer would know there is a lot more to economic policy than just interest rates. One vitally important influence on the economy is the stance of fiscal policy.
www.businessspectator.com.au/.../interest-rate-cuts-RBA-economy-Stevens-Hockey-swan

Is CSG The Maintenance Drug For Our Coal Addiction?, Mike Seccombe, The Global Mail
If fuels were drugs, then coal would be heroin. It is to environmental good health what smack is to personal good health. Industrial civilisation has been addicted to coal for centuries, and it’s killing us.Even the World Bank now sees climate change as a dire threat.
www.theglobalmail.org/.../

HSU bully Marco Bolano ordered by court not to stalk or harass campaign rival, Vex News
Herald Sun (off-line) today reports that notorious HSU bully-boy Marco Bolano is in hot water after a violent incident at Frankston Hospital. A Magistrate has ordered that he not stalk or harass his campaign rival Diana Asmar or be within 200 metres of her home.
www.vexnews.com/.../

You'll no longer be able to rely on government bonds – Robb, Peter Martin
The Coalition will ask investors to prepare for a world with far fewer government bonds in an address in Melbourne Wednesday, saying as it acts on its promise to cut net government debt to zero there will be a “commensurate reduction in the issuance of government bonds”.
www.petermartin.com.au/.../...hout-government.html

BludgerTrack 2013 methodology, William Bowe, Crikey
BludgerTrack 2013 is an aggregate of all published national opinion polls: Newspoll, Nielsen, Galaxy, Essential Research and Morgan. Each poll is adjusted to account for observed biases and weighted according to sample size and past reliability
blogs.crikey.com.au/.../bludgertrack-2013-methodology

Israel, Gaza and the tragic justifications for war , Binoy Kampmark, The Conversation
Gaza, ostracised, enclosed and pummelled, is being levelled – again. Israel’s case against Hamas, expressed both via air strikes and a social media war, is one of self-defence. Article 51 of the United Nations Charter affirms that right, one accepted in customary international law.
theconversation.edu.au/israel-gaza-and-the-tragic-justifications-for-war-10883

Today’s Front Pages
Australia Newspaper Front Pages for 22 November 2012
www.frontpagestoday.co.uk/index.cfm

Lyn

November 22. 2012 08:05 AM

Ad astra

LYN'S DAILY LINKS updated: www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...-DAILY-LINKS.aspx

Ad astra

November 22. 2012 08:21 AM

jaycee

This morning on the ABC. I heard the reader claim that Bill Shorten interview last night (which I saw) was a criticism of Julia Gillard and by implication a backing of the MSM. plot against her.
The ABC. has once again shown its colours on Liberal Party/Newslimedited bias.......Purge the lot! Start at the top!

jaycee

November 22. 2012 08:40 AM

janice

Jason, ToM probably got a boot up the bum and told to piss off, and now has a great big (Abbott) grudge against the ALP.  Hell has no fury like a man/woman scorned.

Marilyn, I think you were sick before you began reading TPS - I do feel some pity for you but nothing else.

janice

November 22. 2012 08:43 AM

2353

Actually I thought Breakfast was reasonably fair.  It gave Shorten a run, it gave Abbott a run and it gave the "self confessed con-man"(their words - not mine) a run.  They then fact checked Abbott on his "illegal immigrant" line reading directly from an article in The Age where an International Law Specialist who frequently appears on the show and pointing out that Abbott lied seven times in his Press Conference from Perth yesterday.  Barrie Cassidy also seemed to be reasonably fair in discussing the headlines.

While I'm here - a hint to marilyn.  Vitriol and abuse do not help your cause.  A number of the regulars here actually support a humane refugee processing system.  You were invited by Jason a few days ago to clearly and calmly raise your issues and discuss how those that wished to could become involved.  You would be well advised to accept Jason's invitation.

2353

November 22. 2012 10:00 AM

Tom of Melbourne

1.  Punishment of the Innocent
In its latest act of outrageous hypocrisy the government has introduced restrictions on asylum seekers that are more draconian than the temporary protection visas they so despised.
Genuine asylum seekers will be released from detention without the right to work, they’ll be forced to exist on minimal welfare benefits for 5 years – punishment for being found to be genuine refugees.
This government just gets more inhumane at every opportunity.
----------------------------
2.  It’s a funny reaction that people get for a little diversity in perspective. I’d only advise-
o  If you don’t like my comments, please scroll past them.
o  If you feel compelled to read them, don’t blame me.
o  If you run a political blog or provide comments in the public domain please don’t bother to object when someone provides a different view.
o  Please don’t feel under any obligation to reply to my comments unless you wish to engage in a discussion about a political issue or orientation.
o  If you feel the need to resort to name calling, it means you’ve lost the plot and the debate.
o  Banning lobbying is hilarious from people who participate on a site that is supposed to “put commentators and politicians to the verbal sword”

Tom of Melbourne

November 22. 2012 10:43 AM

Janet (@j4gypsy)


Jon Faine getting stuck into Neill Blewitt's credibility and the latest attempt to smear the PM.

About 5 mins.

Very cheering! (Hope link works.)

http://tinyurl.com/a92gb85

Janet (@j4gypsy)

November 22. 2012 11:04 AM

Jason

ToM,
   I suppose an Abbott government will make life so much better for asylum seekers?
Why don't you give us a detailed description on your beloved coalition's policy?

Jason

November 22. 2012 11:29 AM

Lyn

Good Morning Ad and Everybody,

Ad it’s worthwhile taking  the  time to listen to the Jon Faine link supplied by Janet.  Thankyou Janet.

Bushfire Bill
Posted Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 9:38 am
Do not let your passion on AS blind you to the reality.
I used to be generally pro-boat people,but I no longer am.
It’s pretty clear that a significant proportion of irregular boat arrivals are gaming the system.
blogs.crikey.com.au/.../#comment-1478450

TheFinnigans
The lawyer that is helping Ralph Blewitt just said on ABC Radio AM, there is no smoking against PM, just there to tell a story WTF!!!!!

George Bludger ‏
Jon Faine on ABC774 talking Ralph Blewitt & MSM soundcloud.com/.../jon-faine-774abc-2012-11-22-on … @Thefinnigans @KezzerSA

Mark ‏
LaborFAIL It's Not ALP calling Blewitt a "Crook" & "rotten to the core" ...it's his sister Penny: http://bit.ly/QvEm5u  #auspol

Libs’ cover-up claim is crazy , Mark Latham, AFR
Deputy Liberal Leader Julie Bishop has developed one of the most bizarre conspiracy theories imaginable.

Smith, who has worked closely with a number of shadow ministers on this issue, has not been reticent in identifying the suspected thief, describing the Prime Minister as “the great file-emptier”. This is the type of imagery the far right has cultivated: Gillard, presumably under the cover of darkness, pilfering Slater & Gordon’s files, then dashing to Perth to raid the WA archives, before jetting to Brisbane and breaking into the Federal Court.
www.afr.com/.../libs_cover_up_claim_is_crazy_hY8Z7KXCVQWqUxVdgbytRO

The Age and the Prime Minister,
The Age did not intend to imply that Ms Gillard was involved in any fraud or that she had knowledge of it.

The Prime Minister has also told The Age that the claim in the second story that she organised finance for the conveyancing is wrong. While it is clear that the PM had some involvement with the conveyancing file, The Age did not claim that she personally arranged the $150,000 loan from her then firm, Slater & Gordon.
www.theage.com.au/.../...ister-20121121-29q9y.html

Gillard has defied doomsayers, John Warhurst, Canberra Times
Anything could still happen next week during the final session of Federal Parliament for the year. Julia Gillard could be deposed at 24 hours' notice, just as she deposed Kevin Rudd, given the Australian way of doing things. Prime ministers are extraordinarily vulnerable to challenge from within their own party in our system.
www.canberratimes.com.au/.../...0121121-29qj6.html
Lovely Pictures of Julia and Obama:
www.theaustralian.com.au/.../gallery-e6frgd5o-1226195737116

Abbott called on 'illegal' slur, Daniel Flitton
LEGAL experts have challenged Opposition Leader Tony Abbott's assertion it is ''illegal'' for asylum seekers to arrive by boat in Australia.

Mr Abbott toughened his rhetoric against asylum seekers on Wednesday, saying more than 2000 are ''coming illegally to this country'' every month without
www.theage.com.au/.../...-slur-20121121-29qa8.html

Would-be leaders preen but the women have the numbers, Paul Sheehan
It was Abbott who saved the Coalition from going over an electoral cliff, Abbott who caused the political earthquake which transformed federal politics in 2010, and Abbott who erased Labor's 18-seat majority in the 2010 campaign, fought to a 72-seat draw in the House, and led the Coalition to victory in the popular vote for the Senate.
www.theage.com.au/.../...mbers-20121121-29qbv.html

Lyn

November 22. 2012 11:56 AM

TalkTurkey

WOW! JON FAINE is a HERO!

Thank you for that amazing interview Janet!

JON FAINE it was who FIRST punctured Abbortt's armour over Abbortt's insistent and factually incorrect use of the term 'illegal' to (dis)-qualify 'boat people'. - A practice Abbortt still insists on today. In that interview, not long before Leigh Sales' blessed 7.30 event, Faine tied Abbortt in knots and on hearing it I thought That's IT! He's done! He's dithered! And today JON FAINE has distinguised himself again for this astonishing effort.

All we want is the truth eh!

What about this bloke Blewitt eh. How can the Liberals be so desperately stupid as to try this on! This crooked crooked man has less than no credibility, the whole thing is the most gobsmacking farce as is now clear from JON FAINE's expose.

He wants a guarantee of immunity from prosecution for things he's done before he says anything. He won't get that though, it's a nonsense. He's a crook with a self-stated memory problem, but . . .

H'mmm . . .

It's . . . interesting. The bastard and his Liberal bastard lawyers and their Liberal bastard backers can spin this out eh, all the time being a farce but all the time being a distraction.

This is the dirtiest trick I have ever seen I think.

Thomson and Slipper are both victims of pretty dirty plots, but I think this is the dirtiest of the dirty lot.

As it degrades still further the quality of civility in this country, so too it will backfire with a vengeance. Its mischievous nature is so very obvious, to millions of people it will appear exactly to reinforce *J*U*L*I*A*s misogyny speech, a lot of men I hope will come across to siding with her, the women already have in hordes. Well, er, droves?

Blokes don't much take to people being unjustly victimised, not if they're proper men anyway. The PM will get a lot of sympathy out of this, and the Abborttians will cop heaps.

JON FAINE is a HERO!  

Double the fist Comrades!

VENCEREMOS!

TalkTurkey

November 22. 2012 11:59 AM

Gravel

jaycee

Thanks for the clarification.  Things have moved on since then, hopefully it will egg on a lot faces, especially the abc.....it is so awful.  I heard Jon Faine this morning on the radio and he served it up really well to all the journalists and then later Barry Cassidy was saying that it appears you can make any accusation without any reason or proof and it just gets a run.  He doesn't know how true he is.

Lyn

Thanks for all your yummy links.  On my twitter early this morning was a reference to a Paul Suyvret (spelling) article at the Courier Mail.  I couldn't find the article and was wondering if you had time or any hints on how to find it, it was apparently along the lines of what Jon Faine was saying.  Thanks in advance, if you find anything.  Smile

Gravel

November 22. 2012 12:26 PM

BSA Bob

42 long @ 7.34
Agreed. Yes, I was stunned a few months ago as A Current Affair did as good a partisan beatup as you'll find anywhere. Why, it seemed that the answer to all these Labor inflicted Boat People problems lay in a place called Nauru! Yes, all these facilities, a smiling Scott Morrison told us, were there & ready to go at a moment's notice, thereby solving the whole thing & so it's best that a Coalition government is voted in this evening & we'll open it tomorrow & that's that.
Now it's "Failed Labor Policy"

BSA Bob

November 22. 2012 12:28 PM

Lyn

Hello Gravel,

Here is the Paul Syvret article:

Touch of the absurd in a war of slurs over Julia Gillard's past, Paul Syvret, Courier Mail
A small but vocal section of the populace chattering class division seem to have had a collective seizure and are spending a significant proportion of their waking hours wandering the streets in tin-foil hats looking for evidence that Elvis isn't dead and the moon landings were faked.

Seriously, the AWU stuff is right up there with conspiracy theories implicating a Chinese submarine in the disappearance of Harold Holt. And hasn't all this barren ground been thoroughly ploughed by now?

www.couriermail.com.au/.../story-e6frerg6-1226519824078

SmileSmileSmileSmileSmile

Lyn

November 22. 2012 01:28 PM

LadyInRed

Seriously Julie Bishop's credibility, what very little she had, is being wasted on LOTO's fanciful belief which he obviosuly still hasn't abandoned of grabbing hold of government by bringing the current government down. He knows he wont be able to win the next election. Pretty soon he is going ot have to talk about policies, and well they don't really exist do they? Even the ones he has promised he cannot possibly deliver. Bishop is going down down down with the ship. More fool her.

LadyInRed

November 22. 2012 01:43 PM

Ad astra

Hi Lyn
Great links and Twitterverse, as usual.  Thanks.

I'm working on the new application for TPS that will facilitate mailing politicians.  I'm meeting tomorrow with Web Money to further this.

When talking to Jon Faine this morning, Barrie Cassidy said he was writing on The Drum about the S&G matter.  Have you seen it?

I'll now be out for a few hours.

Ad astra

November 22. 2012 02:20 PM

Gravel

Lyn

You are certainly the hostess with the mostess. Thank you very much. Smile

Gravel

November 22. 2012 02:28 PM

jaycee

Well...I for one feel Julie Bishop should be congratulated on her fine work in the area of foreign affairs. Not only did she travel overseas to those strange countries, BUT.. she reacued one of our stranded nationals, who was in danger of falling into the long-arm of one of those Furrine legal systems and being prosecuted for ..heavens' knows what things!!..and she has coaxed him back to Australia to "do his duty"...Now, although he cannot be called an immigrant, he certainly falls under the catagory of illegal!..considering he being a "person of interest" by the authorities!....Good onyer Jules!..Well done (over).

jaycee

November 22. 2012 02:45 PM

Marilyn

Janice, your so-called pity for me is about the most irrelevant thing I have ever read.

TPS is such a ridiculous place for the labor right to congregate that I wonder why I bother.

What is the point of torturing innocent people who we promised to protect?

Marilyn

November 22. 2012 03:03 PM

jaycee

No, Marilyn..the most ridiculous place to inhabit is the inside of your right-wing mind! Yes, you are right-wing to the core...you hide behind social niceties, but your abuse and strident demands are purely fascist!
Your demands have a dictatorial quality..sure, YOU would see yourself as the "benevolent dictator" but in reality you exhibit all the signs of a Fuhrer!

jaycee

November 22. 2012 03:42 PM

42 long

Brandis is doing the character assasination thing for MR Rabbit in the Senate. Muck raking bastards. They get up to their eyeballs in filth all over the place abnd call other people liars all the time. Brandis wants Julia Gillard to do the right thing like Thomson, and explain everything to the Parliament. The LieNP immediately called a senate inquiry into Thomson misleading Parliament which didn't stick. What do these grubs think when they take their pay? We have earned it? we have made Australia better for our efforts over the last few years?  really?
   No they have conducted a propaganda war to get power by means other than the ballot box.
We never hear of Ashby and Slipper. Thomson has still been in Parliament, representing his electorate. With the LieNP the parliament continues to be a "Kangaroo Court". A function that threatens proper separation of power and proper justice and government.
  We can expect a crescendo of  this despicable stuff to peak next week. Perhaps the average reasonable person will have had enough. The MSM (as always) cannot resist. YOU are a creep Brandis.( Give lawyers a bad name)

42 long

November 22. 2012 05:25 PM

LadyInRed

42 long

Agree Brandis has one of those demeanors that just give you a bad feeling. That sanctimonious, self righteous, holier than though look that makes me want to hide for cover. Actually that's an affect that has taken over the whole front bench of the Liberal party. Its gotten so bad I really think they have forgotten about policy and taken on the role of Judge and Jury. Trying to appeal to the more basal nature of people because they don't have the ability or a strategy to appeal to our intellect. Keep us dissatisfied with our lot, appeal to our darker side of anger and hatred for others, and fill us with doubt not based in fact, make us fearful. And tip-toe through tuplips back to the Howard era when we all lived in clover and chucked flowers in the air and the world was a rosy delightful place to live where we believed we could have it all and never really have to pay for it......oh please.

LadyInRed

November 22. 2012 05:55 PM

Tom of Melbourne

The hilarity continues.

Here’s someone else who thinks it’s “right wing” to support asylums seekers.

According to many of the regulars here (and on some other sites), it’s “right wing” to point out anything that isn’t in complete lock step with whatever policy volte face this government comes up with on any particular day.

Previously it was “right wing” to support off shore processing! Now it’s “right wing” to criticise it!

I’ve tried to figure out that “logic”, but it is hilariously typical of that applied here.

It’s this “logic” that brings me back!

Tom of Melbourne

November 22. 2012 06:09 PM

Jason

ToM,
   Who said it's right wing?

Jason

November 22. 2012 06:36 PM

jaycee

I don't know how many of you have seen that You Tube video clip of those racists on the Melb' bus...but if you have not, google it and see.
Those racists are Howard's legacy...Howard's "battlers" gone bogan...the reality of Howard's ;"I want those Australians to be comfortable in themselves with their opinions"...Howard's; "We will decide..."
Howard and his filth have crimes they will have to answer for.

jaycee

November 22. 2012 06:38 PM

jaycee

It's not the "logic" that brings you back...it's the loneliness. It's what takes you to those "other" sites as well.

jaycee

November 22. 2012 06:43 PM

jaycee

Yes, dumbass!..Fascist to the core!http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/File:Adolf_Hitler_speech_on_Invasion_of_Czechoslovakia.PNG

jaycee

November 22. 2012 06:53 PM

jaycee

Oops..that didn't work too good!...try this
http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/File:Adolf_Hitler_speech_on_Invasion_of_Czechoslovakia.PNG

jaycee

November 22. 2012 06:56 PM

jaycee

Sorry..that didn't work either...you'll have to google the title.
Ps. You're still a dumbass!

jaycee

November 22. 2012 07:12 PM

Michael

Don't forget last night Leigh Sales promised Part Two of Boomerang Blewett's story on 7:30 tonight.

Will it surface? Like marsh gas.

Michael

November 22. 2012 07:16 PM

Bacchus

Try this jaycee:

http://tinyurl.com/ahk73zz

Bacchus

November 22. 2012 07:23 PM

jaycee

Now how did you do THAT, Bacchus?

jaycee

November 22. 2012 07:33 PM

Bacchus

Easy jaycee - use http://tinyurl.com/

On another issue - is anyone having trouble posting to TPS using Firefox? I have to use IE to post here atm Frown

Bacchus

November 22. 2012 07:36 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Re – comment - November 22. 2012 06:38 PM

Please refer my comment at November 22. 2012 10:00 AM -

It’s a funny reaction that people get for a little diversity in perspective. I’d only advise- 

•  If you don’t like my comments, please scroll past them.
•  
If you feel compelled to read them, don’t blame me. 

•  If you run a political blog or provide comments in the public domain please don’t bother to object when someone provides a different view. 

•  Please don’t feel under any obligation to reply to my comments unless you wish to engage in a discussion about a political issue or orientation. 

•  If you feel the need to resort to name calling, it means you’ve lost the plot and the debate.
•  Banning lobbying is hilarious from people who participate on a site that is supposed to “put commentators and politicians to the verbal sword”

Tom of Melbourne

November 22. 2012 07:57 PM

Jason

ToM,
   Please don’t feel under any obligation to reply to my comments unless you wish to engage in a discussion about a political issue or orientation.

I did twice today! seems you have nothing to say other than your tired old talking points.

Jason

November 22. 2012 08:09 PM

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Folks
I have just now posted Is there life after neoliberalism? by Kay Rollison, which is a follow-up to her piece: Australia Fair by Hugh Stretton

www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...eoliberalism.aspx

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