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Thank you to all who comment here

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Monday, 31 December 2012 07:29 by Ad astra
Lyn, in addition to providing links every weekday and Twitterverse and Twitterati regularly, has kept an account of the pseudonyms of those who have commented on The Political Sword since its inception in 2008.

While our statistics tell us that a large number visit here but never leave a comment, there are regulars who frequently leave comments and many who comment occasionally. To these folk we have a deep sense of gratitude. You, who comment here, make this site what it has become, a site where informed, intelligent contributions are made to the debate on the existing thread, and also on a host of items related to politics here and overseas. You also leave links to valuable material from a variety of sources that keep TPS users informed and up-to-date. Lyn’s Links and your contributions have made The Political Sword a hub for the Fifth Estate. From here, users branch out from the hub to a huge range of resources all around the globe.

The purpose of this short piece is to say, on this, the last day of 2012, thank you for all you have contributed to The Political Sword over the years, and to invite you to redouble your contributions as we move into 2013.

Next year the nation will have to decide whether it wants the Gillard Government to continue for another term, or whether it wants to hand the reins of power to Tony Abbott and the Coalition that he leads. There could scarcely be a starker contrast for the electorate to consider. Those who cynically repeat catchphrases that all politicians are the same and parties likewise, show their appalling ignorance of politics here, and a dangerous lack of understanding of the fundamental difference between progressive parties and conservatives the world over. While this difference is most grossly demonstrated in US politics, it is replicated here. So stark is the contrast that reconciliation is not possible, especially with the conservative leadership that exists in this country.

We who endorse the thrust of The Political Sword, which clearly supports the return of the Gillard Government and is opposed to the installation of a Coalition government led by the most negative, conservative, policy light, destructive, pugilistic politician in living memory, have the task of advocating for that end. There are powerful forces in the Fourth Estate who believe that their ideological and commercial interests will be served best by a Coalition government, forces which will be pitted against the Gillard Government, and which will use all the power and influence they can to bring it down, and install the Coalition.

All that you have to offer will be needed throughout the entire Fifth Estate, and here on The Political Sword, to counter the adversarial forces of the Fourth Estate. We need your help.

Here is Lyn’s list of contributors, over four hundred, in most instances along with the date of first contributing, which we present with our heartfelt thanks for all you have done for The Political Sword over the years.


LAST UPDATE 12 DECEMBER 2012

A BOOR’S BOAR 9/10/2011
ABSTRAKTBIBLOS 25/6/2010
ACERBIC CONEHEAD 2010 TPS AUTHOR
ADAM 14/2/2011
ADELAIDE GIRL
AGNES MACKALEX 24/8/2011
ALCYONE 1/11/2012
AMOS KEETO
ANDY 13/5/2012
ANDREW CATSARAS 7/4/2012 - OWN BLOG
ANDREW SMITH 21/2/2011
ANDY S HASTINGS 7/3/2011 - OWN BLOG SENNEX
ANOTHER
AMY RORKE 24/8/2011
ANNIE THROPE 14/3/2011
ANDREW () 1/11/2012
ANDREW ELDER - OWN BLOG POLITICALLY HOMELESS
ANGYBEE 29/10/2012
ANN 18/6/2010
ARBITCHOICES NIEN MACHT FREI
ARCHIE 11/3/2012 - OWN BLOG ARCHIE ARCHIVES
ASH 8/9/2010 - OWN BLOG ASH’S MACHIAVELLIAN BLOGGERY
AUGUSTUS
AUSDAVO 13/9/2012
AUSTIN 3:6 9/7/2012
AUSTRALIA VOTES 13/5/2010 - OWN BLOG PAUL TAYLOR

BACCHUS 20/7/2012
BARRY KAYDE 5/4/2012
BARRY TUCKER 26/10/2012 - OWN BLOG truthinmediaresourcecentre
BEERME16/5/2010
BEN 20/5/2012
BEN JANAAM 9/01/2012
BEN MCINTYRE 23/10/2010
BENNYG 12/5/2012
BERNADETTE CALLIMAN 7/4/2012
BIG SMOKE 28/12/2012
BILL 26/6/2011 - OWN BLOG BILLABLOG
BILLIE 19/02/2012
BILKO
BILEDIGGER
BLOCKY
BOB MACALBA 24/11/2012
BOBALOT 22/8/2010
BUBBA RAY 25/6/2010
BULTACO METRELLA 14/9/2012
BUSHFIRE BILL 2008 TPS AUTHOR
BSA BOB 4/1/2011
BH

CJM 30/7/2011
CALLIGULA - OWN BLOG
CALYPTORHYNCHUS 25/9/2010
CANBRA DAVE
CASABLANCA 25/8/2010

CATEY 8/9/2011
CATCHING UP 12/11/2010
CAVITATION 5/7/2010
CHRIS BLAIR 6/4/2012
CHRIS T 8/5/2012
CHRIS 29/10/2012 http://www.newsflock.com?lrRef=NtNrE
CHRIS OWENS - OWN BLOG SPORTOLOTICS
CHRISTINE H 26/9/2012
CHRISTOL 27/02/2012
CILLE
CLARKIE 27/4/2011
COLEN
CONAN
COSMAN 16/5/2011
COUNTRYHICK 24/6/2010
CROWEY 16/4/2011
CYBERCYNIC
CUPPA 24/10/2011

DD DOROTHEA DIX 3/7/2011
DD 29/6/2011
DAFID 23/4/2012
DAISY MAY
DALESMAN 6/6/2012
DAN 6/6/2012
DAN GULBERY 13/3/2012 - OWN BLOG THE DAILY DERP
DANNY LEWIS 27/3/2012
DARRENC 27/3/2012
DARYL MASON 14/3/2011 - OWN BLOG THE ORSTRAHYUN
DAMIEN 29/11/2010
DAVID HORTON 2/5/2011 - OWN BLOG THE WATERMELON MAN
DAVID LEWIS 6/9/2011
DAVID M RUSSELL - OWN BLOG
DAVID REES
DAVID
DEBBIE P 2008
DEFNARF 12/6/2012 - OWN BLOG AUSTRALIAN BLOG
DEMOCRACY AT WORK 14/112010 - OWN BLOG
DENISE ALLEN 14/102012 - OWN BLOG DENISE ALLEN
DIRT ARMATURE
D MICK WIER 6/9/2010 - OWN BLOG
DONG 20/8/2010
DOODLE POODLE 14/6/2012
DOUG
DOUG EVANS 11/3/2011 - OWN BLOG EARTH SIGN
DWIGHT TOWERS 6/6/2011

EASYGOING777 2/2/2011
EBENEZER (eb)
ECTRA 25/8/2011
EDDIE 22/7/2012
EL NINO
EMEMY COMBATANT
ENDURING POWER OF ATTORNEY
ETHISTAN
EDDY L 20/6/2010
EK GELIR
EL GORDO 6/9/2011
ERIC 16/11/2011
ERIN 11/9/2012
ESTETIK
EVE WHITE 17/3/2011

FIONA 20/02/2012
FRED
FRED17
F FREDDY
FILIPPO
FIZ 6/6/2011
FLUFFULA 14/3/2011
FRANC 13/5/2012
FRANCO 31/01/2012
FRANK 24/8/2012
FRANKED 12/6/2012

GAFFHOOK 17/5/2010
GARETH PERKINS
GARY 7/9/2010
GARY M 18/4/2012
GILLIAN 30/7/2012
GK 14/7/2012
GEORGE PIKE 14/7/2010
GLENNIS 6/5/2012
GLORFINDEL 29/6/2010
GOLFMAN
GORGEOUS DUNNY 25/10/2012
GRAHAM CLEMENTS 15/6/2010
GRAHAM MURRAY 8/8/2010
GRAMPS 27/8/2012
GRANNIE 26/02/2012
GRANNY ANNY
GRAVEL 21/5/2010
GREG 6/6/2011
GROG - GREG JERICHO - OWN BLOG GROG’S GAMUT
GRUMPS
GUN 25/01/2012
GUSFACE 2010

HADERAK 28/6/2012
HALL CROSSING 5/6/2012
HAMBO 29/8/2010
HARRY “SNAPPER” ORGANS
HELENA HARDCART
HILLBILLY SKELETON aka FERAL SKELETON 2010 TPS AUTHOR
HOLDEN BACK 2010
HOLLYWOOD 21/6/2010
HUGHSNET

IAN
IT'S TIME

JAEGER 30/7/2010
JANE 30/1/2011
JANET 11/8/2012 JAN @ J4GYPSY
JANICE 14/6/2008 FIRST COMMENTER, VIP
JARA 28/8/2011
JAMES HIGGINS 1/3/2012 - OWN BLOG THE POLITICS PROJECT
JAMES ADELAIDE 8/8/2012
JASON 7/5/2010
JAYCEE 12/5/2012
JAYNE
JEAN 6/9/2011
JENAUTHOR 25/5/2010 - OWN BLOG JENNIFER BRASSEL
JENNY 17/3/2011
JESS 24/7/2010 - OWN BLOG
JETSON
JIMBO 3/6/2010
JOA 2/4/2012
JOE 2 8/6/2010
JOE HOMER 24/02/2012
JOHN LAWRENCE 7/4/2012
JOHN 7/3/2011 - OWN BLOG TRUE POLITIKS
JOHN J 25/10/2010
JOHN L 13/02/2012 TPS AUTHOR
JOHN RYAN
JOHNNY BUTTON 13/5/2010
JJ 30/7/2010
JP
JOSH LYMAN
JUST ME

KAREN 14/5/2012
KATE 5/7/2011
KATH
KAY ROLLISON 20/8/2012 TPS AUTHOR VICTORIA’S MUM
KEITH D 31/3/2012
KEN 17/3/2011
KERRY
KEVIN RENNIE 30/7/2010 - OWN BLOG
KIM
KERSEBLEPTES 14/6/2010
KHTAGH 22/7/2012

LADY IN RED 4/5/2012
LAURA 10/4/2012
LAWRIE JAY 3/9/2012
LEFT OF THE RIGHT & RIGHT OF THE LEFT 20/5/2010
LEFTY 20/11/2010
LESLEY DE VOIL 13/9/2012
LEONE BRITT 28/11/2011
LIBERTY JACK 22/3/2011
LIBBY X 33 20/7/2012
LITTLE JAN 28/4/2011
LINDA 12/5/2012
LIZ AITKEN
LOCAL IDENTITY
LOL 23/112012
LT FRED 24/8/2012
LUKE 8/5/2012
LYN - LYN'S DAILY LINKS
LYNE LADY 26/02/2012
LYNCHPIN 18/6/2010

MAC 4/9/2012
MACCA
MACONDO 11/8/2012
MANDY MACK 20/02/2012
MAGROVE JACK 13/5/2012
MARILYN 6/9/2011
MARIAN DALTON 25/8/2011 TPS AUTHOR - OWN BLOG THE CONSCIENCE VOTE
MARIAN RUMENS 10/02/2012
MARK HYDE 20/4/2012
MARK LEAHY 24/8/2011
MARKAT 24/11/2012
MARKS 26/9/2011
MARKTWAIN
MARTYN TONKS 31/5/2012
MARY 10/7/2012
MASSIVESPRAY 26/7/210 - OWN BLOG SPRAY OF THE DAY
MATTHIAS
MEDIAMONITOR 18/5/2010
MEGPIE 71 15/7/2012
MEL 20/02/2012
MERCURIAL 15/9/2012
MERLIN 9/9/2011
MICHAEL
MICHAEL CUSACK
MICHAEL Z 23/6/211
MICK 23/7/2011
MICK SMETAFOR
MICHELLE 8/9/2010
MIGLO 17/5/2010
MICK OF KAMBAH 27/10/2010
MIKEY 26/9/2011
MIN 16/6/2010
MISERABLE TROLLING TYPE PERSON
MOBIUS ECKO
MOLLY
MONICA
MWS 10/7/2012
MR DENMORE 4/6/2010 - OWN BLOG THE FAILED ESTATE

NASKING 17/5/2010
NATURE 5 25/5/2010
NEIL
NELLIE MAY 13/9/2012
NEO THE FAT CAT 6/6/2012
NIALL COOK 25/10/2012 - OWN BLOG THE BANNERMAN
NICHOLAS WALMSLEY 25/8/2010
NICK G
NIKE LEBRON8 6/2011
NITE LITE 11/4/2012
NORMAL 29/6/2010
NORMAN K 30/5/2010
NOTUS 18/10/2011
NUDIE FISH 24/6/2012

OLIVER TOWNSEND 5/8/2010
ONE EYED HITMAN 8/9/2011
OPEN MINDED
OSTERMAN
OZ FROG 25/6/2010
OZYMAN 19/9/2011

PADDYBTS 19/02/2012
PAPPINBARRA FOX 3/6/2012
PAT 5/9/2011
PATRICIA LORIMER 30/5/2010
PATRICIA WA 29/6/2010 - OWN BLOG POLLIEPOMES
PAUL OF BERWICK - OWN BLOG
PAUL WALTER 16/6/2011
PAUL WELLO 19/7/2012
PB 15/10/2012
PER ARDUA 30/1/2011
PETER 8/7/2011 - OWN BLOG AUSSIE VIEWS NEWS
PETER MC
PETER P 11/7/2012
PIA ROBINSON 2/4/2012
PIKIRANKU 1/6/2012
PILGRIM 10/10/2012
PJ 14/10/ 2012
PJF 25/5/2012
PHIL 13/8/2012
POLYQUATS 22/8/2010
POMPOUS GOOSE 3/7/2011
PSYCLAW 29/6/2011
PUFF TMD 19/4/2012

QIER 25/9/2010
QZQ 2/7/2012

RAJA CUHE 15/9/2011
RHIANNON 27/6/2011
RHYTHYMZ 5/5/2012
REB OF HOBART 6/3/2011 - OWN BLOG GUTTER TRASH
RGBRG 16/7/2012
RENAE 15/5/2011
REWI LYALL - OWN BLOG
RICCARDO
RX
RN 30/7/2010
ROB 2/7/2012
ROCK 3/9/2012
ROGER 16/3/2011
ROBERT TOBIN 5/5/2012
ROBERT VAN AALST 5/11/2011
ROBYN EVANS 13/5/2012
ROBYNNE 15/10/2012
ROCCO 4/3/2012
ROD
ROD BOULTON 29/6/2011
RON
RON DEKKER
ROSWELL 29/6/2010
ROWAN 20/8/2010
RUSSELL GLENDALE NEWCASTLE 14/6/2011

SALLY 22/5/2010
SANCHEZ 19/7/2012
SANDRA 13/5/2012
SANDY 27/6/2010
SAM 26/6/2010
SAM OF SUNSHINE 6/8/2010
SAPPERK9 15/02/2012
SAWDUST MICK
SCORPIO
SCOTT 3/10/2011
SENEXX 4/6/2010 - OWN BLOG
SHANE 20/02/2012
SHAUN 28/8/2011
SHIRLEY 10/4/2012
SIMON 29/6/2010
SIR IAN CRISP
SMITHE 14/7/2012
SNOOZER
SPROCKET 3/3/2012
STEPHEN LAZARUS GRAYSUN 10/7/2011
STEVE 777 24/8/2012
STEVE OF ADELAIDE
STEVE 9/5/2011
STEVE 1
SUE 9/5/2011
SUE 2 20/9/2011
SUZYQ 2/4/2012

TALK TURKEY 15/9/2010 - OWN BLOG OZZIGAMI
TAO DE HAAS 26/10/2012
TEDDY SEA 1/12/2012
TIFFANY232 5/3/2011
TIM BADRICK 21/6/2011
TIN CAN 14/5/2012
TCEPSER 21/6/2010
THE MOOR 14/6/2012
THEODRIC 15/5/2010
THE OTHER BRIAN
THE WETMALE - OWN BLOG MATHEW LEE
TODD 27/9/2012
TOM OF MELBOURNE 5/2011
THORNEY 15/5/2010
TONY S 27/4/2011
TRAVIS
TREDLGT 21/8/2010
TREVOR 11/8/2011
TRUTH SEEKER 29/6/2012
TYLER 11/5/2012
TYPECAST 12/2/2011

URIAH 10/9/2012

VAL 2/3/2012
VALERIE 29/7/2010
VALERIE WOODRUFFE 25/5/2011
VICTORIA ROLLISON 23/9/2012 TPS AUTHOR - OWN BLOG
VON KIRSDARKE 22/8/2011
VOTE1MAXINE, NOW BRING BACK MAXINE

WAKE UP 8/6/2012
WAYNE 15/9/2011
WAYNE BROOKES 1/3/2012 - OWN BLOG CURIOSITY AND CHALLENGE
WEE WILLY 23/8/2011
WHAT IS MORE 26/8/2012
WINNIFRED SWEENY 19/7/2012
WOODPEAR 6/12/2012
WORDS MAY DESTROY 10/8/2012

XIAOECHO 13/8/2012

YOU MUST BE KIDDING

ZAC SPITZER 14/10/2012

42 LONG 13/5/2012
2353 10/8/2010
2 TANNERS

Comments (879) -

December 31. 2012 07:53 AM

2353

I've been here since August 2010 Wink - what a journey it's been.

Thanks to AA, Lyn and Web Monkey for the ride and long may it continue.

Happy New Year and may 2013 bring you all love, life and happiness (and of course the LNP fighting over the spoils of defeat again).

2353

December 31. 2012 07:57 AM

TalkTurkey

For the last time in 2012, Good Morning Comrades of The Political Sword!

Recaptcha: schism ermysm

schism is right, between er,theirmsm and ermysm!

And my, eroursm is going kick their msm all around the town this coming year.  






TalkTurkey

December 31. 2012 08:39 AM

Gravel

Ad Astra

If it were not for you, none of us would have contributed here.  Thank you for all you have done.  You gave me confidence to add my little bit and I have, thanks to Lyn, had a few quips on Twitter.  Whilst things have been quiet I caught up on lots of links I had bookmarked from our wonderful Lyn, and even had the courage to put a few comments on PB Xmas Tragics.

Thanks to everyone who contributes here, there is lots of great in-depth discussion that helps me have small political discussions with friends and family sometimes.  I only say anything when I am sure of my facts, like the time we had to get a window (wooden) made and replaced.  The chap that was doing it was worried that the price of glass was going to sky rocket, due the price on carbon, and I was able to tell him it was a lot of rubbish.  He left  with a smile on his face.

Happy New Year everyone.  Keep safe, well and happy.  Looking forward to our busy year and hope to keep up with a few other sites this year.

Talk Turkey

So far there are quite a few of us that would love to see you on the PVO program, not trying to put the pressure on you, but it would be great to have someone on our side on that program.

Gravel

December 31. 2012 09:43 AM

LadyInRed

Thanks Ad Astra for the wonderful site that you provide. Thanks to you Lyn for the great links, saving us so many hours each day. You have both been fair in my opinion posting both sides of the argument, though I know where your heart lies and you have always been upfront about your political leanings. Thanks to all who post here. Here is to next year an election year, finally TAbbott can let go of his dummy spit and show us what he has got.....I don't expect anything of substance, I suspect it will just be more of the same.

LadyInRed

December 31. 2012 10:52 AM

DoodlePoodle

Thank you AA.  I have really enjoyed reading all of your pieces and the contributions of others.  The one comment I would make is that in order to have more contributors on this site, people should refrain from correcting grammar, spelling or whatever.  People will refrain from posting if they feel that there contribution may be critised.  

There is a great mix of talents on here from many different "walks" of life from professional people down to some that may have dropped out of school.  We mostly belong to the one cause and who cares if the grammar etc is not 100%.  Let's make a New Year Resolution to be kind to one another. Say whatever you like about the Nopposition.  

Happy New Year All.    

DoodlePoodle

December 31. 2012 11:27 AM

Truth Seeker

Swordsters, the new year is looming, the old is almost spent so thanks to Ad, Lyn and all those who contributed and a happy new year to all.   Smile

Tonight lets eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow the new  battle begins and we shall come out fighting.   Smile   Smile   Smile

Go the fifth.

Cheers    Smile   Smile   Smile

Truth Seeker

December 31. 2012 11:52 AM

Sandra

I only discovered TPS this year and I think that I'm blessed by reading the great contributions of AA.  Lyn, your daily work is an amazing dedication to getting the TRUTH out to the rest of us here.  The fifth estate is the place to be especially in this coming year.
I'd like to wish everyone at TPS a very happy and safe new year.

Sandra

December 31. 2012 11:55 AM

ausdavo

Thanks Ad for this wonderful site. Your site and Lyn's links have led me to many other like minded sites. This enables rejuvination and encourages dedication - which we all need for the battle ahead!

Let's not forget to gently remind everyone we speak to (or email) that TAbbott and his ratbag mob are not fit to lead our great country.

Happy 2013 to all.

ausdavo

December 31. 2012 12:25 PM

LadyInRed

Hilary Clinton in hospital after routine checkup from a concussion. Doctors discovered a blood clot.

www.nydailynews.com/.../...-clot-article-1.1230031

LadyInRed

December 31. 2012 12:39 PM

LadyInRed

A storm has broken out on social media as the Shadow Treasurer Joe Hockey used the occasion of the Prime Minister going to visit her widowed mother for Christmas as an attack on her leadership and her courage. The PM's father passed away this year See below the reaction of some of the twitterati.



storify.com/.../hockey-says-pm-going-on-holiday-is-real-leadership

LadyInRed

December 31. 2012 12:42 PM

Wake Up

Thank you AA for the amazing place that is TPS, the quality of contributors here is a testament to your tenacity and sense of truth.

I expect TPS will grow incrementally in 2013 as the bite of the MSM is rightfully reduced to a mere bark.

Happy New Year to all who live and visit here.

Keep up the fine work.

Cheers,

Wake Up

December 31. 2012 12:48 PM

KHTAGH

AA
   Please accept our combined gratitude for what you have created here at TPS it is a site you & lyn especially, together with the rest of us should be proud of.

   We will have a good yr in 2013, if not, it will not! be through lack of effort.

As a newbee I'm glad I followed a link 5 months ago & found it.

All raise a glass tonight to our gracious host & toiling tweety bird.

Best wishes to all fellow swords folk tonight, see you all next yr.

KHTAGH

December 31. 2012 12:50 PM

Acerbic Conehead

AA,

Thank you for another fantastic year with The Political Sword.  Your analyses are always very enlightening and insightful.

And thanks also to Lyn for the hurculean and consistent efforts she puts in, keeping us up to speed with the latest articles.

I enjoyed the few occasions this year when I had the time to write a thread.  Sadly, next year looks like another shocker, with quite a bit of my time having to be spent overseas.  I know the internet works outside Australia(!), but the time won't be my own, unfortunately.

So best wishes, AA, to you and all the contributors at The Political Sword for 2013.  May we get the outcome Australia needs!

Acerbic Conehead

December 31. 2012 01:01 PM

LadyInRed

Gillard's New Year message stressed the need for confidence and unity but it will be up to her and her colleagues to make it happen, writes Mungo MacCallum.


http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4448356.html



Abbott's wife, Margie, and their three daughters will be used in the lead-up to and during the election campaign. They are an attractive family and her job as the director of a childcare centre gives her authority to speak on an issue both parties want to own


Read more: www.theage.com.au/.../...anges-20121230-2c1iw.html

LadyInRed

December 31. 2012 01:06 PM

LadyInRed


The four business gangs that run the US:

First is the well-known military-industrial complex. ''As [President] Eisenhower famously warned in his farewell address in January 1961, the linkage of the military and private industry created a political power so pervasive that America has been condemned to militarisation, useless wars and fiscal waste on a scale of many tens of trillions of dollars since then,'' he says.

Advertisement Second is the Wall Street-Washington complex, which has steered the financial system towards control by a few politically powerful Wall Street firms, notably Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase, Citigroup, Morgan Stanley and a handful of other financial firms.

These days, almost every US Treasury secretary - Republican or Democrat - comes from Wall Street and goes back there when his term ends. The close ties between Wall Street and Washington ''paved the way for the 2008 financial crisis and the mega-bailouts that followed, through reckless deregulation followed by an almost complete lack of oversight by government''.

Third is the Big Oil-transport-military complex, which has put the US on the trajectory of heavy oil-imports dependence and a deepening military trap in the Middle East, he says.

''Since the days of John D. Rockefeller and the Standard Oil Trust a century ago, Big Oil has loomed large in American politics and foreign policy. Big Oil teamed up with the automobile industry to steer America away from mass transit and towards gas-guzzling vehicles driving on a nationally financed highway system.''

Big Oil has consistently and successfully fought the intrusion of competition from non-oil energy sources, including nuclear, wind and solar power.

It has been at the side of the Pentagon in making sure that America defends the sea-lanes to the Persian Gulf, in effect ensuring a $US100 billion-plus annual subsidy for a fuel that is otherwise dangerous for national security, Sachs says.

''And Big Oil has played a notorious role in the fight to keep climate change off the US agenda. Exxon-Mobil, Koch Industries and others in the sector have underwritten a generation of anti-scientific propaganda to confuse the American people.''

Fourth is the healthcare industry, America's largest industry, absorbing no less than 17 per cent of US gross domestic product.

''The key to understanding this sector is to note that the government partners with industry to reimburse costs with little systematic oversight and control,'' Sachs says. ''Pharmaceutical firms set sky-high prices protected by patent rights; Medicare [for the aged] and Medicaid [for the poor] and private insurers reimburse doctors and hospitals on a cost-plus basis; and the American Medical Association restricts the supply of new doctors through the control of placements at medical schools.

''The result of this pseudo-market system is sky-high costs, large profits for the private healthcare sector, and no political will to reform.''



Read more: www.theage.com.au/.../...he-us-20121230-2c1e2.html


LadyInRed

December 31. 2012 01:17 PM

MWS

According to the ABC News this morning, Tony Abbott wants to "make Australia great."  You're already grating, Tony!

MWS

December 31. 2012 01:37 PM

MWS

Stephan Lewandowsky on the myths in the climate change debate (if you can call lies vs truth a "debate").

Research in cognitive science has identified the factors necessary for a successful rebuttal of misinformation. A simple correction is often insufficient.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4446160.html

MWS

December 31. 2012 03:54 PM

Michael

Well, for our next Prime Minister we can have a person who at the beginning of this coming new year invites the nation to join together with great expectations for all our sharing of it.

Or we can have one who uses a New Year's address to the nation as a political platform speech with thinly veiled attacks on his opponents.

In short, one leaves 2012 with 2013 seen as an unmarked platform for advance and improvements, the other wants to slap the template of '12 right across '13.

Dirty business as usual from Shouldabeen.

Michael

December 31. 2012 04:03 PM

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)


It’s such a moment for gratitude, isn’t it, this swinging from one year to the next, and today we swing with hope revived by you all.

Ad, Lyn and TPS: you have saved my political soul – truly Smile. Finding you in May/June and coming on board in August with a post or two has given me and others who read alongside me hope, reassurance and courage. Others have spoken so well of Lyn’s dedication (and today’s list of who has posted is one more amazing example!) and Ad’s steady insight – these alone make TPS an extraordinary place to hang out in. And then there are … the rest of you Smile.

Just a few replies and comments to some posts from the previous thread:

Pikiranku at December 29. 2012 05:27 PM: Thank you for the thank you, but all thanks go to NormanK of the beautiful rose gravatar. He had put the tutorial up for me recently, you see, so I knew where to find it. Glad you are excited and looking forward to seeing your Mary Lee gravatar Smile.

TT, Knee High, Bob: Have been getting enjoyably high on your 'weeds' discussion! And reminiscing … the late bloke grew his own, you see. Discreetly. Just so happened his Dad was a Superintendent in NSW Police Force! Recurrent break-outs of getting plants into the ceiling before Dad and Mum arrived. Those were the days … Smile

Knee High: Love it when you talk bees Smile. Utterly fascinating.

DMW, MWS, Knee High, Lady in Red: so agree with TT and others: what a lovely job of linking you are doing. If @LynLinking is watching from on high (where else would a tweetybird be?) she must be pickled tink, I think. Smile

Gravel: You may call me Gypsy, anytime Smile.

The happiest of new years to all, and … strength in the battle ahead.

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)

December 31. 2012 04:10 PM

Ad astra reply

Folks
Thanks to all of you for your kind comments, generous remarks, heartwarming compliments and good wishes for 2013.

I’ve been trying to get on the Internet for ages to acknowledge your contribution, but with the influx of holidaymakers here in this coastal village, the 3G network is overloaded with mobile phone traffic, and access is therefore a matter of luck.  It happens every holiday time – thanks Telstra!  That’s why I posted this piece early in the day.

2013 will be a critical year for this nation.  The people will have to decide whether the outstanding progress that has been made under Labor since 2007 will be allowed to continue, or whether we shall stand still or even regress if voters give the nod to the conservatives, led by the most restrictive, narrow, unimaginative conservative Opposition Leader ever.  We progressives in the Fifth Estate know that we have a fight on our hands, not just against the conservatives, but also against their powerful backers in the Fourth Estate.  But we also know we are equal to the task.

We had some excitement this morning when we discovered a healthy, active mature koala in one of our eucalypts.   Although the road sign near our property signals that koalas are around, we seldom see them.  The kids and grandchildren were excited, and lots of photos were taken, which is just as well, as he has now moved on.  

Maybe the appearance of a healthy Australian icon is a good omen for 2013?

Lyn, Web Monkey and I wish you all a Happy New Year and a Successful 2013.

Ad astra reply

December 31. 2012 05:06 PM

Pikiranku

AA, Lyn and everyone - just want to add my thanks and good wishes.  

TPS has been a lifesaver for me too - living in a country town full of Tories/rednecks can be a very isolating experience but contact with this site works miracles for morale.
  
Special thanks to you NormanK for that Gravatar tutorial which came to me via Janet. I'm still not convinced I got it right but I live in hope!

Very, very best wishes to you all - I hope we all (that's you, me, Julia, the ALP, all the good guys) have an excellent, stimulating and successful 2013.

Pikiranku

December 31. 2012 05:25 PM

MarkatPort

Many thanks AA and Lyn for all your good work. I'm a newbie to the site ( found it through a link from "politically homeless" some four months ago and never looked back ! You are an oasis  in a desert of dross. Through the many links on the site, I now have  faith that the 5th estate can "keep the bastards honest" It's growing. It's getting stronger every day.

Very best wishes to all for 2013

MarkatPort

December 31. 2012 05:46 PM

Marilyn

Name all the great differences between the racist boat woman and the racist boat man - come on people.

Gillard is wasting billions to jail just a few hundred people in tin sheds without doors and tents to prove she is tough on refugees, why would you want to be tough on refugees though is the question you don't ask.

Here is the first report from Manus Island for your pleasant reading.

Submission to the People of Australia

A Message from Manus Island

We write to the people of Australia.

We write this with tears, having come to your country with so much hope and expectation, only to find a policy that treats us unjustly and unfairly, without compassion or respect for our individual situations.

We are so far away here, living on a remote Island, unseen, without permission yet to leave the small compound where we live.

We ask the people of Australia, do not forget us or abandon us.

We respect your values, your laws and your defence of the right of freedom for all people. We want that for ourselves and our children. It is why we undertook this journey.

When we arrived in this place we were so distressed and upset we decided to not eat or take anti – malarial medication to demonstrate our protest at this treatment. But our new friends here have helped us to understand that in Australia people are free to protest and speak out and voice discontent about decisions and policies that they feel are unfair and unjust. It is everyone's right to do this. And others will listen.

We are not used to having this freedom. So we choose to use it. We have decided not to go without food or put our lives at risk. We have decided to use our intellect and our humanity to appeal to all people who care for justice and fairness to hear our stories and support our cause.

We have given up voluntary starvation as a sign of our respect for the democratic processes of Australia, and we put ourselves in the hands of these processes.


Who we are and Why we came on this long and dangerous Journey to Australia

Story One:

Hello I'm Zohreh Yousefian. I was born in Abadan, Islamic Republic of Iran. My family experienced war when I was just four years old.
We migrated to Shiraz. I started studying and even as a woman I graduated from University after 4 years of study as a Bachelor of Accounting .
Then I began teaching in college and have continued this for 11 years. During this time I also completed an acting certificate from Farhang & Ershad(Iranian Department).



I come from a country which does not respect basic woman's rights. In comparison with males, females haven't equality in having access to jobs or equal salaries. Woman have no chance to become a singer or to do simple things like going to the stadium or motor biking. No make up in the street is allowed and they have to wear HEJAB because in Islam it's Haram(must do that).

As an example I gave up my job after eleven years with no insurance or guarantee for the future.

In Iran men have all the rights in a divorce. For example, most ladies who decide to leave their husbands after a long time of suffering and even sometimes violence, have to give up all their rights to property, support and often even their children, when they sign the divorce papers. Unfortunately there is no protection for females, even after separating.

In such a Muslim society women have to tolerate discrimination and being looked down on and judged. Divorced women also are often misused and treated very badly. It is therefore common to find women hopeless and with no confidence.

Faced with this situation I decided to leave everything behind and undertake a journey to a place where there would be peace and freedom, and to do this even though I was afraid and didn't have any certainty about my future. This was better than what i was experiencing in my country.

This discrimination, oppression and unfair laws effect many young people in my country. I lost my brother at the age of 28 because of these disasters. That is why I decided to run away from Iran with my only brother that I have. We hadn't time even to say good bye to friends. We risked our life in the hope of having freedom, safety and tranquility and living in peace.

Just remember I'm a human like you, and I have my own rights in such a short life, to live like a free bird.


Story Two:

Hooshang and I got married 21 years ago and our daughter (Hediye) was born three years later. She grew up in a society where there was no freedom, justice or safety. As a mother, I was always looking after her. My daughter was born Muslim, but three years ago she said, "I want to be an agonistic." I was worried about her, that she may get in trouble because of her beliefs and political views. I saw lots of boys and girls arrested by the government and never returned back to their families. I didn't want anything to happen to my daughter. She is my everything. My husband and I really love her. We didn't want to lose her like other parents, who lost their children and weren't allowed to speak about their loss. We left everything behind in search for freedom, justice and safety. As parents, we were looking for a safe place for our daughter but we didn't find it in our country.

For 37 years I lived in Iran. I've never been respected as a woman. There was always some differences between men and women. In Iran women are like entertainment. Women have no custody of their children. There is no one at the back of a woman; women have no support.

My husband was exposed to dangerous chemicals many years ago, in the war between Iran and Iraq. After this, he started losing his hair. He lost his eyelashes, eyebrows, and all the hair on his body. He became depressed and he stayed in the house for 6 months. After that, he was mocked in society. He was ignored by the government.

Our family is looking for safety, justice, freedom and honesty. We want to live free. We want to live with peace of mind.


Story Three:

This is Aghil Yousefian. You can call me Aria.I was born on 28 July 1984, in a family that experienced war. I had to start working when I was 8 with my father selling clothes. I grew up in a country which is Islamic Republic where everything is judged by religion.

Time past and I got my Diploma and graduated high school. I started kick boxing. After two years I went to Compulsory Military Service. During this time I won silver medal in National Championship. After end of Military service I graduated with a referee certificate, and coaching certificate of martial arts. But none of them were useful for finding a job or helped me go to college or gain a scholarship.

Another tragedy occurred in my family. My brother died of a heart attack, caused by the stress and pressure of his life

I have always loved music as long as I can remember. I started playing drums in Heavy Metal style which is my passion. In the last 4 years before I came to Australia this became very dangerous for me. I did playing with lots of difficulties. Because Heavy Metal is completely prohibited and illegal in Iran, and as I mentioned before because of the religion and misjudments, it's known as "Evil Music." Government officials and the Religious who are in charge will arrest you and take you to Intelligence Department and anything can happen to you then.
Musicians are therefore doing their music underground. Many teachers are not allowed to teach in Institutes. You must have a certificate and be doing Iranian Classical and Pop. No Concerts, no nothing. We couldn't even record our covers in studios because the owners were scared of doing that. The place we were practicing and training was completely secret, except for two teachers of mine and close friends who trained with me.

But everything became worst than before. In an underground concert more than 60 fans were arrested, charged and locked up. Players were taken to Intelligence. Two teachers of mine were arrested also.
After those happenings, I changed my job to plumbing in the country side. I sold my Drums, changed my place, changed my mobile phone, and had no contact with anyone but family. I became depressed, lost weight , from 88 kg to close to 70-2 kg. I deleted every history of my music from my life because of my fear of being arrested by the government who were intent on stopping this music. During this time 6 musicians that I knew were arrested in their training place. After that no one contacted each other, even on Face Book.
If you want to be employed in a company, you have to be Muslim and pass an interview first. if you want to be a professional Musician or even hold musical performances, you have to have permission of the Religious, who are in charge. The type of music I practiced and enjoyed would never be allowed or tolerated. Women are not allowed to become a singer because in Quran it says women's voice is HARAM(not accepted in Islam Religion)
Can you imagine what it's like living in a country that has oil, gas, mines, long history more than 5000 years, but no freedom or safety, no respect and equality for females?!?!?!?!??
However brave or gutsy you are, you still cannot say your opinions, because of the Death Penalty and the fact that executions in Iran are as common as eating a piece a cake.
The reason why my sister Zohreh and I ran away to Australia , is because we think everything is the opposite here to what we experienced there.
Aria 9/12/2012 Quarantine, Manus Island , Papua New Guinea

Story Four:

We are Hemat and Khadijeh. We are a very young couple and we are targeting freedom and to be safe. We have been in so many difficult situations to achieve our goal.
We left Iran because of racism to Kurdish people. In Iran there is no no respect or fair treatment for us. They stop us from achieving our goal of freedom and safety. In Iran there is no voice for the Kurdish people.

We have no freedom to marry. The government controls our life. There is no freedom to make decisions about our life or choice. The government decides everything.
For example:
• Marriage - you can only marry a Kurdish person , you have no choice in your partner
• Kurdish people are limited to maximum diploma level education
• Sometimes are girls forbidden to work
• There is no freedom to practice religion other than Muslim
• There are many things you cant discuss if your a girl, and girls are not treated with respect
• To be a woman in Iran and Kurdish is very very hard
• Jobs are hard to find and there is no equal access to technology or training or education. We had very little money and it was very hard to make a living. There is no future, opportunity or life in this country.
We left for safety and to find freedom. This is no way to live. We chose to leave.
We were hurting so bad we didn't think about the ocean and death because freedom was more important for us. We would choose death rather than live like this.
We arrived in Australia but have found only a life like what we had. Our opportunity, our hopes, our goals we were looking for seem to be gone, to be dead. All hope is dead in our heart.
Why have we been bought to Manus Island?
It feels like we are at the end of the world. We are thinking this is not life, death is better than existing like this.
It is a big world but it feels like there is no place for us. Why is there no justice anywhere in the world for us? We are not guilty of anything but wanting freedom and safety.







What we expected to find when we reached Australia
We are people who deeply desire freedom. We left behind a country where this was not available, where your life was at risk if you sought to practice or believe things that were different to what the rulers tolerated or allowed.
Most of all we believed Australia would be a country where freedom was valued, protected, and available.
We believed Australia would be a country where equality was valued, where people no matter their race or background or circumstances would be given equal treatment.
We believed Australia was a place of compassion , that extended support and care to those who need help. We think of Australians as warm, kind people with big hearts, who treat others with respect.
We believed Australia was an open society, where there is truth and honesty, and where we would be provided with information about the processes ahead of us and what would happen to us.
We saw Australia as a land of opportunity, where our dreams that had been buried and almost destroyed could come alive again.
We believed Australia was a country where there would be Justice, where the rights of people to fair, equal treatment, was vigorously defended. This is something we have never experienced in our own country. We expected it to be very strong in Australia.
We expected a country free of racism.
We expected that there would be a proper and detailed process that we must participate in with honesty and cooperation to prove our claims for asylum. But we also expected that we would we able to immediately commence the process to submit our refugee claims and evidence, and that this process would be transparent and available.
We expected that our claims for asylum would be individually evaluated, and decisions about us would be based on the individual qualities of our character and our individual experiences.

We expected that in a country like Australia politics would not interfere with our basic human rights to seek asylum.
We expected a country where there was peace and respect for law and order and where we could one day live with our families in safety.
We expected a country that would welcome those who came to contribute. We do not want to live on welfare or be dependant on the government or anyone, but to work hard, and make a contribution to society.
We expected a country where women would be treated with equality and respect and experience safety.

What we have experienced on our journey
We understand that not all the policies, treatment and experiences we have experienced are reflective of the people of Australia.
But we share these examples to show how different our experience has been to many of the ideals we had believed about this country.
On Christmas Island we experienced attitudes and comments that made us feel that we were not good people simply because we were from Iran. For example, when I asked for clothes that we needed because we had lost most of our own clothes on the journey to Australia, I was told by an officer "Get someone from Iran to send some to you." (Iranian man)
I was made to feel guilty because I was asking for clothes. The officer said to me "You have things, these people have nothing " referring to the Sri Lankens who were also receiving clothes. (Iranian woman) We were surprised to come across these attitudes, that seemed to judge us by our race , rather than our individual circumstances or needs.
Most of all nothing has occurred to help facilitate the reason for our journey, to claim protection and asylum from Australia, and to have the opportunity to start a new life. We are now in another country, PNG, and we appreciate the need for assessment, security and health checks, but we can't understand why it takes so long for this process to begin. We feel the government has forgotten us, and feel they do not care about the very real and important reasons why we made this journey.
Perhaps the hardest thing to understand about this situation is the lack of fairness and justice we are experiencing, from a country that we believed models this to the world. For political purposes, Australia seems to be sacrificing its great values.

How is it fair that we have been sent here, to a remote hot island with hot, harsh climate and little infrastructure, with no freedom to leave this Centre or follow our own life plans, while others on the very same boat, who travelled with us, are now in Australia, being released into the Australian community, and are free to live where they choose, to go where they want, to follow their own life plans. There were 114 who travelled on our boat to Australia, and only 7 have been sent to Manus Island.
This week I received a message on Facebook from a friend I met on my boat journey to Australia. He had posted a series of maybe 20 - 30 photos on Facebook. He listed his address as Melbourne Australia, and there were photos of him exploring his new city. They showed him at the beach, swimming in a pool, sitting in Santa's chair at a department store, at the park, at nightclubs - his arm around a group of friends, holding a range of drinks, in his new house sitting in a comfortable lounge with a flat screen TV in the background.
This man came on VERY SAME BOAT as me, fleeing the same country, for the same reason, and yet the outcome is so different. I am facing unrelenting heat, water restrictions are on at the moment, I am surrounded by gates and fences and guards and not allowed to leave the Compound. I have no freedom. I am not allowed to drink alcohol or able to choose and cook my own food. I live in a tiny half a container with my parents that still has no door on it. (Iranian woman)
This seems to us so unjust and so unfair. We are constantly thinking about why we were chosen to be sent to this place and not have opportunity to be processed in Australia. What have we done?
Is it because we have no family already in Australia? This was one question they asked us when interviewing us before we left Australia. Why does having no relatives in Australia make us any less worthy or in need of Australia's protection and help. How is it fair that this should be the deciding reason.
"Do you need wheel chair" was another question they asked. Is it because we are healthy?
While waiting in Christmas Island we tried so hard to show that we are good people, with honest hearts and intentions. We tried to help in any way we could. We were always cooperative and didn't cause any trouble.
We volunteered. I sorted clothing. ( Iranian woman)
I helped by interepting for the Serco officers. They called me their "favourite interepter" (Iranian man)

In contrast there were others on Christmas Island from the same boat we were on, who behaved badly, who caused trouble, or who were at times aggressive to officers or spoke badly to women.
Yet these people are still in Australia, with the opportunity to live and be processed in Australia. it seems the nicer you are, the more respectful and compliant and helpful you are, the more likely it is that you will be sent from Australia to be processed off shore.
How can this be fair or just? How can you treat the same people in the same situation in such different ways, How can this be called justice?
The process of being removed to Manus Island was also traumatic and filled us with fear and emotions we did not expect to experience again after we had left Iran.
At 6.30am in morning they came to take us to a "meeting."
I didn't have time to brush my hair or change my sleeping clothes. We were taken to a room where there were a large number of Serco officers. They were big, muscular men who looked intimidating, carrying sticks and spray. They were different to the officers we had come to know while at Christmas Island. They told us nothing, but did body checks and then put us on a bus. (Iranian woman)
There were other people on bus. We still knew nothing about what was going to happen to us. It reminded us of Iran. We wondered what there intentions with us were.
We thought "Is this Australia?"
The bus took us to another area we think were Immigration offices. There were Sri Lanken people there also and we were separated into ethnic groups. We were told by a man with a big smile on his face we would be transferred to PNG. "I will never forget his face and his smile as long as I live." (Iranian woman)
We didn't even know where PNG was. We were not allowed to ask questions. This was such bad news for us.
We were told Serco would pack all our things and they would be sent with us to PNG.
We waited a long time. Later, after about two hours someone came and spoke to us individually in family groups. Several guards were with us. We were told because we were healthy and had no family in Australia we were being sent to another country. We were not allowed to see any of our friends to say goodbye. I was asked if I had any fears about going to PNG, I replied I was very scared about this. I was scared for my daughter. (Iranian woman)

We were searched again, even under my tongue, my hair, behind my ears, our belongings were packed. We never returned to our room. ( Iranian woman and man)
Our property was not treated with respect. Clean things were thrown in with dirty things. Some items, important to us, were lost, and never arrived in PNG.
After many hours of waiting, we were put on another bus and taken to the airport. The cruel treatment continued. We felt like criminals.
There were now many other officers, we think they were Federal police. They took video footage of everything that was done. They sat near us and stared at us constantly the whole trip. Even if we went to adjust our belts to make them more comfortable we were told not to.
The temperature was very cold. No blankets were provided for the trip and when we asked for one we were told they were not allowed to give it to us. We were on the plane for many hours, and received only one small sandwich and water.
When we used the toilet on the plane we were accompanied by a guard and the toilet door was not allowed to be fully shut. This was humiliating for us and again made us feel like dangerous criminals, who were guilty of some serious crime.
When the plane finally landed at PNG we were marched out of the plane one by one by the officers. I wanted to walk out with my daughter. I was so scared. They wouldn't let me. (Iranian woman)
No information was given to us on the whole trip. We became even more scared during this trip and wondered where we were being taken to.
We left Iran because of our fear of the unjust, cruel, inhumane way people are treated. We never expected to have those feelings of fear again. There were times when because of this treatment and the lack of information we wondered if our lives were under threat, what are they going to do to us?
This experience was more traumatic for us than the boat trip we undertook to reach Australia. Then, our life was in the hands of nature. But here in Australia, where we expected just treatment, our lives were in the hands of people who made a choice to treat us in this cruel and demeaning way. This is very hard for us to understand. I was thinking all the time I didn't want to bring my daughter to this. This is why I left Iran. (Iranian woman)
Regardless of Australia's policy on asylum seekers there must be a better way to treat human beings than this.

We have never committed a crime. We have always sought to help others and be cooperative and to show we are good people who can contribute to Australia. We are just people seeking a life free from persecution and fear.


What we desire
We still desire what led us to take this dangerous journey – freedom and justice.
We have come to understand more about why Australia is doing these policies, but we plead do not make us the victims of politics like happens in Iran.
We ask simply that our basic human rights be respected and that we have the opportunity to present our case and show who we really are, why we need asylum, and what we can contribute to Australia.
We ask to be treated fairly, and be given the same opportunities and treatment that the people who came on the same boat we were on are receiving.
We ask not to be forgotten, for people to come and meet us and hear our stories and get to know us as real people, not as boat numbers.
Most of all we have the same desires as you have, to be happy, and live in a country where there is freedom, respect for human rights, safety and respect for the law, and opportunities through hard work and good character to have a good life.
That is all we seek and ask for.


These stories though have been reported merely as an unreasonable request for airconditioning.

Marilyn

December 31. 2012 05:48 PM

Sir Ian Crisp

No doubt everyone at TPS and the wider world is wondering how our family spent Christmas. On the 19th December my father let me accompany him as we visited the occupants of the ten (10) houses we own. I had to hide my joy when dad told the occupants to get out within 30 days. I like watching the look of disbelief on the faces of these wretched (probably ALP voters) people as the news sinks in. My father likes to get new tenants who will pay a fortune to live in one of our hovels.

On the 20th December my father let me break the news to the hired help (butlers, au pairs, driver, footman, and whipping boy) that their Christmas leave had been cancelled. We have four butlers, 3 au pairs (I hope these African women never find out the correct hourly rate of pay), one driver and one footman. We employ a whipping boy just to blame when things go wrong. We pelt him with all manner of crockery (Royal Doulton of course) and if he lets any of those items break we deduct the value of that item from his pay. It was a real hoot watching one of the au pairs sobbing when I told her to cancel her flight to Cazombo in Angola. She told me she had a 10-year-old daughter she hadn’t seen for 2 years and wanted desperately to see her. I told her if she thought that was worth crying about she should think about my father’s Rolls Royce: the TV screen for the rear seat passenger entertainment was not working. That’s worth crying about.

Did anyone here at TPS do anything interesting to relieve their boring lives over Christmas?

Sir Ian Crisp

December 31. 2012 05:59 PM

TalkTurkey


http://ingeb.org/songs/thespide.html

"Won't you come into my circle?"
Said van Onselen to TT:
"It's a Turkey-jerkin' circle
Because of course of me!
"
The way into my circle
Is paved with gems and gold
And you, you gorgeous gobbling Turk'll
Get your story told!"

"Oh really?" quoth TalkTurkey
"Methinkth you take the pithh!
It theemth I need the Fourth Ethtate
Letthh than You lot need the Fitthh!"

I am a little bit gleeful about Peter's offer, for that very reason. He invited three of us:
@GBoroughGrowler @Thefinnigans @TalkyTurkey Serious question: would you guys come on #Contrarians next year as a panel of 3 with me?


Thank you to the folks who have encouraged me to take him up on it, and note that I have not committed either way so far.
I have told PvO so on Twitter.

I have always been impressed by the way that real radicals, with rare exceptions, are so easily bought off by inclusion into the edges of privileged groups.

Remember the immortal parody of The Internationale:

"The working class can kiss my arse,
I've got a boss's job at last."


Remember Harry Butler In The Wild, sucking up to miners in the end?

Remember Professor Jullius Sumner Miller, advertising chocolate?

And people turning to milk-&-water the moment they get a guest moment on TV?

Well That ain't me Babe. No No No, that ain't me.

I have other thoughts about it too. Hey I ain't an easy lay neither, why should I be? And I don't believe I'd get a decent go, I can't remember when I ever saw anyone really outspoken get a run of more than .4 of a second. What about if I felt like talking about Zionist Jews and their ongoing campaign of murder and larceny? Said what I feel about Pell and his ilk? What about if I started proselytization of Cannabis for recreational use? And if I did get to talk about Assange, I am pretty persuaded that it would only be because Professor Onselen saw some potential for divisiveness there.

Why am I so persuaded? Could it be empirically based?

It is such a loaded situation, he's got the Kill button, camera switches instantly to interruptors . . .

But I could be wrong!

BTW make no assumptions. Thinking.

There's a lot more possible verses to The Spider and the Fly if I choose to write some!  


TalkTurkey

December 31. 2012 06:10 PM

DMW

Marilyn
thank you for posting those stories.

DMW

December 31. 2012 06:24 PM

Thomasina of Melb'

Hi!...fellahs!...you see!..it really is me..you know ; "ToM"  'cept I'm Thomasina now!...like : "ToM" in drag! I did this so I could learn what being a misogynist is all about....oooooooooo!! I could get used to this sssshokking pink!
Whell!..now that I know what THAT feels like, I'll be seeing you in the new year!....You won't get rid of me that easy, you know!

Thomasina of Melb'

December 31. 2012 06:26 PM

jaycee

Sorry about that little spoof!...I just couldn't resist it!
My sincere apologies to any cross-dressers and others for the shocking ham performance...Best wishes for tonight and for the new year everybody!

jaycee

December 31. 2012 06:37 PM

NormanK

Ad astra

Congratulations on guiding TPS through another calendar year.
Hopefully next year will be dominated by policy discussions and I look forward to your incisive analysis of them.
All the best for the new year.

NormanK

December 31. 2012 06:38 PM

NormanK

Lyn

Thank-you for all of your hard work during 2012. I look forward to your return in 2013.
Happy New Year.

NormanK

December 31. 2012 06:41 PM

jaycee

Yes, Sir Ian, as a matter of fact, the day before christmas, after putting off paying my landlord(who just happens to be your father)for several months for various reasons he can sympathise with..like I have to pay my broker a downpayment on some blue-chip shares..or : I've had to renew my "Colonial Status Licence" and then I send him a "rubber cheque" that he cannot cash till after christmas and by that time I would have done a moonlight flit after holding one enormous chrissy party, all charged up to the address and completly trashing the dump!
Now..That's what I call fun!...Merry Christmas, Sir Loser!

jaycee

December 31. 2012 06:41 PM

NormanK

Pikiranku

If you go to the Gravatar site and log in, you should see the image of your choice. Check that your e-mail details are recorded correctly.
Remember that you need to accurately use those same e-mail details when you log in to TPS.

If you have any problems just give me a shout although my response might be slow in coming.

NormanK

December 31. 2012 06:59 PM

TalkTurkey

www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...tical-speech.aspx

On the 20th of December 2011, just over a year ago, I posted what I called the 2011 Inaugural Ad astra Awards. It wasn't "official", in the sense that it was purely my own personal tribute to the three people I named as winners, and there were no prizes. It was just for feel-good fun.

But it sure was sincere; you may find it in the archives, and indeed I would be very pleased if you were to, because it came at a very dynamic time just around Xmess last year, and also because there is so very much wonderful stuff in the archives of The Political Sword that hardly anyone hardly ever looks at. It is contemporary history, and from many observers, an unbroken record the like of which I think does not exist anywhere else.

I only chose 'winners' in three categories in my Awards last year: ones I was sure could not be challenged, and indeed they never were, simply because each was out on his/her own in the whole Australian blogosphere, as far as I still believe to this day.  

The three I named as Winners were PatriciaWA for her unrivalled Political Pometry, Lyn our TweetyBird for her  Daily Links, and of course Ad astra,  whom I named Political Blogmaster of the Era.

All are still as active as ever here. But the plot has thickened beautifully, and it is largely because of those people that it has.

WRT rhyming verse, TPS has proved so appreciative of Patricia's, (and TT's too ftm), that this year we have been joined by the redoubtable Truth Seeker, a powerhouse of incisive political verse who has plainly found his niche here. So now there are three of us, myself coming a poor last maybe but still,  and three is what is needed for stability, and for Powerful Magic. United we stand, Us Three against the prosaic world,  well not against it, for it of course! But all 3 of us, I'm sure, have been fired to write much of our verse simply because we know that it will be read appreciatively here on TPS. Ad-astra-be-praised!

Tweety Lyn is a phenomenon, there is no way of evaluating her importance beyond saying it has made TPS the Hub of the Fighting 5th Estate in the Wide Brown Land. From her comfy nest high in the TPS lighthouse, she daily flits all around Australia for the best of the Left (which is the best there is), not only transmitting and publicising the most important writings on political social media, but, uniquely, attracting  readers back to TPS -  that is the magic that has brought such attention to our site, and so much respect - as comments on Twitter and elsewhere attest. All the Left loves TPS, and Lyn bears much of the blame for that.

But she has gone so much further this year!  She is all over Twitter, increasing her influence and range immeasurably, in ways which synchronise with TPS and extend everywhere!

She routinely inveigles mugs like me and Jason Obelix onto Twitter too! For which I thank her much, it's great fun and it's powerful in its funny puny way. Lots of mice with a megaphone.

Lyn's Tweety gravatar is the best-beloved on the entire 5th Estate, because it so perfectly encapsulates the way she relates to her thousands of loyal followers.

And something else special happened too!
- You must know that Lyn does find the work involved in her daily linking onerous,  it is not as if it happens by any other magic than her own effort. It has told on her eyes (they are better now as a result of her resting them) and as I know for a fact, sometimes it has told on her general health too; though she is perfectly well, she was just overworking on everyone else's behalf.

Well she has had breaks at Xmess time, during which, in the past, NormanK has ably filled her shoes, though we know he has more than enough on his own plate.
A New Year's well-wishing on you NK, I hope things may conspire to lift your spirits throughout 2013.

But this year, a newcomer to our blog and to Twitter, Janet @j4Gypsy , has stepped up to the plate while Lyn takes a break (not that Lyn isn't busy on Twitter anyway, but it's fun, not so onerous.)
Jan is revelling in the job, Lyn has coached her, and a couple of little birds tell me that they have formed a mutual adoration society!

That is really wonderful news for us all.  We are INDELIBLE my friends! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DofAQwRzz-M
[ It may not look or sound so terrific now but this was one of the greatest songs by one of the most honest bands I ever heard. I met them on a few occasions. Spectrum/indelible murtcepS was/is great!]

And the other thing Lyn has taught us to do is to do some LINKING ourselves! It is our own responsibility, really, to help spread the thoughts: we have all too often left the job mostly to you Lyn, but we are lifting our game and in this vital year we will all take our share of the work.

So now we have a blogsite with many old loyal contributors reinforced by many staunch new recruits! It is deadly to start naming individuals because I would inevitably leave out some, but (again due to Lyn!) you will find your name in Ad's post today!

So anyway, I am only making one Award this year, and that is to Ad's wonderful blogsite itself.

One only needs to read the tributes being posted today to know why I have no hesitation in declaring, on behalf of us all,  The Political Sword as the best-beloved political blogsite of all.

And I hardly need to say why that is. Thank you dear Ad astra.

Blogmaster ot the Era, You Are!



Well done all of us, this is a time for congratulations all round, because we have come far.  But the hardest is yet to come. I think we're ready. Bring it on!

VENCEREMOS! In 2013.

Happy staunch feisty New Year to All Lefties.



TalkTurkey

December 31. 2012 07:08 PM

uriah

Thanks Ad and Lyn for your wonderful website and thanks to all the regulars who post such interesting stories and links.
As for the 2013 election as PM Julia Gillard says-BRING IT ON.
I love a good stoush and am proud to join all swordsters in the great battle that is coming.
Happy NY to all of you.

uriah

December 31. 2012 07:24 PM

Sir Ian Crisp

Yes, Sir Ian, as a matter of fact, the day before christmas, after putting off paying my landlord(who just happens to be your father)for several months for various reasons he can sympathise with..like I have to pay my broker a downpayment on some blue-chip shares..or : I've had to renew my "Colonial Status Licence" and then I send him a "rubber cheque" that he cannot cash till after christmas and by that time I would have done a moonlight flit after holding one enormous chrissy party, all charged up to the address and completly trashing the dump!
Now..That's what I call fun!...Merry Christmas, Sir Loser!

jaycee


You've been sprung. You aren't supposed to read my posts.

Sir Ian Crisp

December 31. 2012 07:30 PM

DMW

TT @ 6:59 PM,
an interesting potted history you offered us thank you

Can I suggest that you also delve into the archives of about twelve months ago as I suggest you may have misremembered some of the history Smile But thanks for not reminding to many people Tong

DMW

December 31. 2012 07:38 PM

bob macalba

Ad , Lyn, and all the good folk here at the Sword, 'thankyou',
fair dinkum if it wasnt for the Fighting Fifth i would go nuts,
no longer do i splutter and scream at the telly at the crap.. i now have an outlet.. so thank you all and looking forward with enormous confidence to the coming year and the Fifth setting the agenda,
'HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL'  and take care

bob macalba

December 31. 2012 08:04 PM

jaycee

Sir Ian...I don't "read them" I use braille...and as much as I hate to admit it, it is..possibly..like feeling a polished t*rd.

jaycee

December 31. 2012 08:15 PM

Sir Ian Crisp

Sir Ian...I don't "read them" I use braille...and as much as I hate to admit it, it is..possibly..like feeling a polished t*rd.

jaycee


I think you're well versed in dealing in merde.

Sir Ian Crisp

December 31. 2012 08:28 PM

Pikiranku

I can't believe this is happening!  

According to the Channel 9 news here tonight the SA Liberal Party is considering parachuting Alexander Downer into their leadership!  

Tomorrow is the 1st January, isn't it - for a while there I thought maybe I'd got it all mixed up and tomorrow was actually 1st April.

Pikiranku

December 31. 2012 08:33 PM

jaycee

Aha!...gotcha!...: S,S..Sorry..no second prizes!

jaycee

December 31. 2012 08:53 PM

DMW

Clive's PA ‏@PAforClive
The moment of 2012 in politics. By far. http://pic.twitter.com/JLmmlFFx
Retweeted by Leroy

The finest moment in Australian politics of 2012 maybe?

If not, a very close second to 10 moments* of feisty words from a bloodnut.

*Somewhere in the dim distant past I read that some pommy king defined a moment as 90 seconds. 10 x 90 = 900 divided by 60 = 15 minutes.

DMW

December 31. 2012 09:05 PM

Patriciawa

Thank you Ad Astra and Lyn for all the hard work and dedication you give to keep this wonderful community together, <i>au courant</i> with daily developments around the big issues which concern the well being of our country. It's been a joy to exchange ideas with witty and talented Talk Turkey, and to appreciate the depth and perception of NormanK whom we've so missed recently.  I'm prevented from mentioning so many other names like Gravel and Janice because the list is long as my arm and already my arm is hurting like mad. So please forgive me if I just say Thank You to all of you!  Happy New Year!  And yes, we must make sure that the ALP prevails in 2013 and the services of our very talented PM are retained.   Finally I can only join TT's determined  VENCEREMOS!    

Patriciawa

December 31. 2012 09:42 PM

BSA Bob

Especially to Ad & Lyn
but to everyone really, happy new year.

BSA Bob

December 31. 2012 09:48 PM

BSA Bob

Pikiranku
ABC didn't mention Lord Downer. I wouldn't be surprised though, as Redmond to my eye has been coasting (as our local lot are wont to do) on the assumption that with the press on their side the hoi polloi will come to their senses & reinstate their rightful rulers. It's easy to see how some would think some Howard era nastiness might pay dividends. But I reckon His Lordship's comfy in his current cushy circumstances (another job created by Labor of course).

BSA Bob

December 31. 2012 09:53 PM

BSA Bob

2353
Let us hope 2013 augurs the triumphal return of steam traction to the nation's steel highways.

BSA Bob

December 31. 2012 10:26 PM

nasking



We who endorse the thrust of The Political Sword, which clearly supports the return of the Gillard Government and is opposed to the installation of a Coalition government led by the most negative, conservative, policy light, destructive, pugilistic politician in living memory, have the task of advocating for that end. There are powerful forces in the Fourth Estate who believe that their ideological and commercial interests will be served best by a Coalition government, forces which will be pitted against the Gillard Government, and which will use all the power and influence they can to bring it down, and install the Coalition.

I like it.

Best of New Year's Eve to ya ALL.

Later

N'

nasking

December 31. 2012 10:30 PM

Ad astra reply

Folks
At last the local mobile phone traffic has eased and I can get online again.

I am overwhelmed by your complimentary remarks about TPS and those who keep it running.  Such generous support buoys our spirits and girds our loins for an intense battle in 2013.

It is extremely encouraging to read how much TPS means to so many of you, an anchor of hope and strength in turbulent times.  Times where the sea is chaotic, the Coalition whipping up huge waves to drown our elected Government, the howling media wind like a whetted knife.  But our PM stands resolute, unmoved by the tempest that seeks to bring her undone, and we here at The Political Sword stand unyielding with her.

TT, you have once again concluded the year with encouragement for us all.  The exuberance of your words endows the site with the vitality essential for the heavy but exciting year ahead.  Your optimism is an inspiration to us all.

Thank you for your kind remarks and your always-positive VENCEREMOS!  Indeed!

NormanK
It is good to see you again.  Thank you for your kind comment.  I hope 2013 will be an easier year for you and for those close to you.

MarkatPort
I see we have a Markat who joined us in November.  Is it you?  If you are another, welcome to the TPS family, and thank you for your complimentary comment.  Do come again.

I’m off now to see out 2012 and welcome 2013.  I’ll be back tomorrow.

To all of you good folks in the TPS family, a Very Happy New Year’s Eve, and a 2013 that brings love, happiness, health, and success.

Ad astra reply

December 31. 2012 11:36 PM

bob macalba

  
   Alfred Lord Tennyson
Ring out the old, ring in the new,
Ring, happy bells, across the snow:
The year is going, let him go;
Ring out the false, ring in the true.

bob macalba

January 1. 2013 12:16 AM

DMW

Another One Bites The Dust

DMW

January 1. 2013 12:58 AM

bob macalba

DMW

you said it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqyUAtzS_6M

bob macalba

January 1. 2013 04:05 AM

TalkTurkey

Swordsfolks,
I posted this a year ago. It was in response to debbiep's omission from the Big List (bigger now!) as at the top of this thread - Ad & Lyn did this List thing last year too you see.

So Folks look through the List, if you're not there and deserve to be, sing out!

Anyway that is what my year-ago bit of doggerel was about. ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

January 1. 2012 12:12 PM

debbiep,
and any and all folks who might have been omitted from the TPS list, or whose noms de plume might be in error  . . .

All Swordsfolk tried and true,
We all honour all of you,
And if you've been omitted,
Let us get your name re-fitted!
Please don't take it as a slight -
Just help Lyn get it right!
Ad guessed there'd be a few
Omitted just like you,
'Cos posts to TPS
Are something of a mess
At all times, day and night;
Lyn tries to keep it tight,
But as night follows day,
A few names slip away,
So if you've been left out,
Please don't just fret and pout -
Please, just stick up your hand
And Lyn'll stick you in the band!

BTW debbiep
           I think you should wear your omission  
                     as a
        Gold Badge of Honour!

See I think any omissions are likely to be early posters - before Lyn started archiving them.


"Make new friends
But keep the old:
New friends are Silver
The old are Gold!"

Let's hear it from you Goldies eh?

New Year's Day is always Sunday!
(Even if it'd usually be Monday)
The Day of Days to Have your Say -
It's TPS's Fun Day !

If ever you mean to write in again Folks, remember this forever, New Year's Day is the traditional day to reconnect, and a very fine tradition it is too, ordained by DOG!. With the TPS list timely here, Swordies can reminisce with old flames and comrades and sparring partners . . . past conflicts . . . triumphs . . . insults   wins . . . shared joys, pains . . .

Today's the best day of all to say Hi.

So Hi!  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, Hi!

Happy 2013 everyone.

TalkTurkey

January 1. 2013 06:25 AM

TalkTurkey

DMW, Bob,

I knew this was going to happen!

TalkTurkey

January 1. 2013 07:27 AM

Shirley

A LABOR Victory this year and a victory for fairness and decency. Yes I believe it will happen. I favorite pic. of last year is the PM  knitting with the children at the folk festival. Pure gold.

To all Sword-people I wish you a good, healthy and productive 2013.

To Ad, Lyn a thank you for your amazing work and commitment. How could we lose?

Sword-people You have entertained educated and inspired.Thank you all.

Shirley

January 1. 2013 08:12 AM

DMW

Speaking of Deep and Meaningless ...

The QI Elves ‏@qikipedia
2013 will be the first year since 1987 in which all digits are different from one-another.
Retweeted by Peter Martin

DMW

January 1. 2013 08:15 AM

Michael

I know 2013 is going to be politically ugly, it's the only way Tony Abbott will be able to function in an election year, or any year, so let's just skip to the Woodford Festival a few days short of 2014 and enjoy Prime Minister Gillard's chat with the crowd...

Michael

January 1. 2013 08:28 AM

DMW

Let us start the New Year on the right (as opposed to wrong) foot and call a spade a spade (or a shovell if that is your want).

To do that I hand over to Ian Warden:
... my award of un-Australian of the Year has to go to evil people.

And so I award the gong to every Australian in public life who, so contrary to what goes in the hearts of good Australians, has contributed to treating asylum-seeking boat people as criminal scum. The award goes specifically to every Australian in public life who, knowing he or she is lying, has this year called measures against asylum seekers ''border protection'' (as if boat people are arriving in millions in armadas of warships) when it's nothing of the sort.

We know that politicians do this to pander to the voting intentions of the worst and nastiest ignoramuses in the most marginal seats (especially Sydney's ignoramus-infested west) but the ignoramuses are not to blame. You cannot educate a mug. In their xenophobic fearfulness and idiocy (which Gillard told us in the last election is a perfectly rational response) they believe, surveys show, that asylum seekers are cascading down on us, taking our jobs and changing our perfect way of life, in their hundreds of thousands. But then these people, superstitious and suggestible, believe in a whole suite of irrationalities. Without them astrologers, psychic charlatans and broadcasters like gibbering Alan Jones would have no business model.

But the un-Australianness consists of educated people who know better and who know what's true framing our asylum-seeker policies, and the debates about them, in ways that suit these few unrepresentatively stupid and unkind Australians. All of us brought up to tell the truth, and who simply don't know how to lie about big things, marvel at the slitheriness and shiftiness of the ''border protection'' mongers who know they are lying but do it with such enthusiasm. In a better world their pants would always be aflame and for their brazen embezzlings of the truth they, not the unhappy refugees, would be serving terms of imprisonment on a vile camp on Nauru.

They let Australia down, these cunning, self-aggrandising xenophobiamongers, and they are this column's un-Australians of the Year.

What a sweet country we could be with leaders who appealed to what's good about the best of us.


www.canberratimes.com.au/.../...0121228-2bz09.html

Bravo Mr Warden, I totally agree.

DMW

January 1. 2013 09:41 AM

DMW

Possum Comitatus ‏@Pollytics
2013 hey. "Don't get mad, get organised"

DMW

January 1. 2013 10:10 AM

Ken

In looking through 2012, I found this Hockey speech from April.  Some of you may remember it but I had forgotten about it.  

australianpolitics.com/.../...-of-entitlement.html

Fascinating reading – an expose of where the Libs are coming from.  They haven’t changed their spots – Costello also used to say that the family was the best “social safety net” and that Government should get out of the business of social support and leave it to the churches and voluntary organisations.

Hockey, in using his household budget analogy, fails to mention that borrowing for capital expenditure (buying a house, or infrastructure in the case of governments) is legitimate as it increases overall wealth.  A major failing of the Howard government, so intent on surpluses and lowering taxes that it allowed essential infrastructure to deteriorate.  There are all sorts of errors in Hockey’s speech – too many to comment on!!!

Superannuation is both good and bad.  Hockey wants non-defined benefit schemes for everyone to reduce government expenditure.  That is already happening but all it does, in economic terms, is move the risk from the employer to the employee – workers are seeing that in the past few years with their superannuation so reliant on the “markets”.  When I was a kid, the stock market was called “rich man’s gambling” but now all workers have been made gamblers on the stock market and as in any gamble you can win or you can lose, which doesn't seem a vaild way to run people's retirement income.

Side-tracking myself: the point is that this old speech by Hockey is another one that should be available to the electorate during an election just to remind people of where this mob is really coming from and the rubbish they talk.  There is enough of this crap for a whole campaign!

Ken

January 1. 2013 10:12 AM

Ken

sorry , forgot to add at my wishes to all swordsters for a happy and revolutionary 2013 and to add my thanks to Ad and Lynn for all their work on the site.  

2013 will be a good year

Ken

January 1. 2013 10:25 AM

TalkTurkey

DMW at 7.30 PM last year

I'm not good at misremembering.
As Patricia will attest, if she can remember...

TalkTurkey

January 1. 2013 11:10 AM

2353

BSA Bob - Geez I'd love you to be correct but I reckon I have a better bet on winning Lotto numbers and world peace.

DMW & bob macalba - Here's to us http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p22BfALgJpw.

Happy 2013 everyone.  May it be a gooden!

2353

January 1. 2013 11:37 AM

TalkTurkey

re that invitation into *Professor* Peter van Onselen's circle:

Song of the Liar~Bird*

I am Turkey, Hear me gobble!
Watch my floppy wattle wobble
As I spread my splendid tail into a fan!
And though this may sound absurd
I can say more as a bird
Than ever I was able as a man!

(chorus)
Oh yes it's bizarre, but it has a point you see:
I'm freed from superego by my anonymity!
If I want to I can say anything!
Am I wise? - Am I ridiculous?!
I am TalkTurkey!  

*There is a lot more to this song,
I just haven't written it yet.
Things are not always as they seem.

TalkTurkey

January 1. 2013 12:13 PM

Gravel

Talk Turkey

I take you point about good people getting recognition in the MSM and then not standing up for their principles. I hadn't thought of that, although I know you would stand up for Labor.  Thanks for putting your thoughts out here for us to see.

LadyInRed

Thanks for those links, much appreciated.

Gravel

January 1. 2013 12:20 PM

Miglo

Congratulations to TPS for another great year.

Miglo

January 1. 2013 12:26 PM

bob macalba

2353,
first song of the morning of the first day of the year..
  uplifting..thankyou happy new year,
stark contrast to the last song listened to before crashing this morning.. try this one to wake yourself up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZdQ3w3_nuE

bob macalba

January 1. 2013 12:40 PM

bob macalba

TT
I dont trust pvo,  i believe his aim is to try to put the three of you in a bad light... the bastards are frightened and lies and smear will be the norm,  ... im just suss about it without really knowing why,....whats pvo up to?  

bob macalba

January 1. 2013 01:51 PM

2353

bob - my they are angry aren't they?

Admittedly the original (non Glee) version of "Here's to us" is a little darker - it's a really uplifting song.

2353

January 1. 2013 02:12 PM

bob macalba

2353
cant help myself....anger=energy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=227m9lw5CcI

bob macalba

January 1. 2013 04:09 PM

Sir Ian Crisp

I think we must discount Ian Warden and the blatherings in his Gang-gang column. Ian has grey hair so according to the rules here at TPS he is an old wrinkly. Yesterday's man. A hasbeen. Remember what the oracles here at TPS said of the old hasbeens at the carbon tax rallies; they were yesterday's people because they were old and had grey hair and their views didn't matter. We must, as a TPS Principle, apply the same rule to Ian Warden. To do otherwise would see us branded as whited sepulchres and that just wouldn't do would it.

Sir Ian Crisp

January 1. 2013 04:41 PM

nasking



To all my TPS friends and fellow contributors...as a great and wise Vulcan more than once said:

LIVE LONG AND PROSPER

Have a wonderful and enlightening 2013

Your effort and views are valued.

Ad and Lyn with the aid of others have created a wondrous ship of knowledge.

Enjoy the journey.

N'





nasking

January 1. 2013 06:05 PM

DMW

Have you ever noticed the similarity between myths and rabbits?

When a boy rabbit and a girl rabbit get together, well, the old saw about breeding becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Myths are slightly different in that it doesn't matter whether the  myth is shared between a boy and a girl, two boys or two girls it starts to take on a life of its' own and well breeds like rabbits

One thing we could do to assist in making 2013 a better year politically would be to expose and eradicate myths, particularly those bred by the political class, the gatekeepers in the fourth estate and those in the fifth estate who believe and perpetuate the myths.

So a call to arms folks let us put the myth makers to The Sword

DMW

January 1. 2013 06:06 PM

TalkTurkey

It is high time we did some serious thinking ahead.

What on Earth are we to do with our time after the next election, when Labor is sitting on a comfy majority?! ( Smile )

I do really mean that. We truly are political junkies aren't we.
We hang out for fixes of poll results. We anxiously scan news reports and we watch talking heads on inbred chat shows like The Drum. We amost always have cause to be livid at the overwhelmingly Right-biased reportage on every Media outlet.

But we do watch and listen, in justified fascinated trepidation true but we do watch is the point. It takes up lots of our thinking.  Well, we WILL win this election, (use your Eye of Time Comrades, see, We are STRONG!) - But yeah, then when we've won, then what, what's it called, relevance deprivation? With a vengeance I fear. Because it will be a yawn of a Parliament compared to this hung situation.

"May you live in interesting times" goes the famous Chinese curse. You can see what they mean. But it has almost never had a dull moment, and when those few have occurred, ~ like, when Abbortt's gone to ground for another couple of weeks, or during these Xmess Doldrums e.g. ~ then we're hanging out for some action! You only need to watch Twitter. We're junkies.  

We will beat them, Yes, but they have already done a lot of damage that will be hard to undo. Dumbed-down, hate-imbued, so many Australians now are, pushed beyond reach of reason by the relentless divisiveness of Abborttianism, led and cheered on the Murdoch-monstered Mass Media, and given the imprimatur of Rightist Religion and the Ruling Rich. This is not damage that is within the reach of normal politics, it is essentially irrational and denialist, and that is a big worry.

But there remains one overriding focus for our energies nevertheless, and that is to win the election in 2013.

In this the biggest Aussie Rules game there has ever been, we're on three-quarter time, the breather, the final quarter just about to resume, just minutes away . . .

And the Fighting 5th is a player too.
That's Ewen Mee, and Mei-An Yu.  

I hope you're girdling your lions.




TalkTurkey

January 1. 2013 06:32 PM

DMW

Speaking of myths I came across this shortly after tapping out the above:

margo kingston ‏@margokingston1
.@Mikeah44 @AdamBandt Here is my note showing that Judge Rares firmly believes that Slipper did not harass Ashby. www.scribd.com/.../Slipper-did-not-sexually-harass-Ashby-Judge
Retweeted by AshbyInquiryNow Geek

DMW

January 1. 2013 06:53 PM

Truth Seeker

Hey Swordsters, for the new year I finally bit the bullet and opened my own blog.

It's mainly an archive for my poetry, both political and fantasy, as well as some short stories, and bits and pieces from my novel and hopefully some music, when I can work out how to do it   Smile

I have put up a few posts, and there will be many more over the next few days.

For those that may be interested in having a look, the link is;

http://truthseekersmusings.wordpress.com/

hope to see some of you there and maybe get some feedback.

Happy new year to all, again, and cheers   Smile   Smile

Truth Seeker

January 1. 2013 06:59 PM

DMW

TT,
the answer to your question depends on a number of variables.

Leave aside the forgone delusion when Labor is sitting on a comfy majority? and the obvious question of if this majority is in the House of Reps alone or both houses.

One dependency would be if 'we' are politically partisan participants or whether 'we' are partly or fully politically agnostic.

It is also more than likely that many amongst us are actively interested because 'we' are concerned that politics leads to a better world and it would definitely be a foregone delusion to think that merely by electing a Labor government with a comfy majority that a better world would automatically follow.

When 'we' look back across the last five years it would not be too difficult to find some dumbass decisions and some downright stupid stuff as well.

Many among us will still have plenty to be watchful of as for as sure as night follows day should Labor be re-elected there will still be many to hold to account and many to Put To The Sword

DMW

January 1. 2013 07:17 PM

Ken

Talk Turkey

A valid point for the future but one step at a time I suppose, although I will make the following comments.

When the Government is returned, I think there will still be work to be done.  Governments of all persuasions, across the world, have been captured by the markets and the economists (and the banks).  As I said in a previous post, politicans need to be reminded that we are a society, not an economy.

Politicians need to be reminded of the original definition of economics.  It is not about markets but how a society, any society, utilises and distributes the resources available to it.  This broader definition draws in issues like climate change which will have an obvious influence on the available resources.

Politicians need to be reminded that tax cuts are not the be all and end all.  People will accept higher taxes if they see a real benefit, e.g. if schools, universities and health are genuinely free, and public transport actually works for the public!!

We need to ensure that politicians are not captured by the “big end of town”, the miners, the banks, the Murdochs of this world, etc etc.  Voters need to be made aware of the influence these groups have through their constant lobbying and access to government Ministers, which the ordinary voter does not have.

Even in 2014, we will need to make sure that the government does not cave in to these groups and make sure it is a genuine government for the people.  I know they will be trying but they will still need our support to resist the pressures.

Ken

January 1. 2013 07:54 PM

xiaoecho

Ad and Lyn thank you for your work during 2012. You truly are freedom fighters. I do honestly feel this coming election Australia is looking into the abyss. As another commenter put it "On election day Australia will be facing the biggest I.Q. test in it's history"
The LNP under Abbott will finish what Howard started. With the MSM as the LNP's propaganda arm progressives are working with the odds stacked against them. The wider public have no idea what is in store for them under the LNP. Queenslanders have had a hint. The LNP have proven time and time over since the Howard years they have no respect for Australia's political traditions or institutions. They are dispensible if they impede the LNP's objectives. So is the truth. Can you imagine the Treasurer telling the press (ie. Australian public) to "Go to hell" When he is asked to explain his policies or costings. Will we see the Prime Minister (Abbott) merely walk away from the press as he is in the habit of doing, when the questions become inconvenient. A lying unnaccountable Authoritarian government, no fourth estate to speak of.....and the fifth estate the only ones trying to tell the public the truth and keep our elected representatives accountable. Already in the USA 'Conspiracy' websites trying to inform the public of the links between the corporates, wall street and government are being shut down under the excuse of 'National security' Will it happen here with an ever increasing authoritarian LNP government?

I truly fear for Australia. The egalitarian Australia I was born ito has dissappeared. Howard killed the 'fair go'. The Gillard government is trying to restore the balance against incredible prejudice. Perhaps I am a pessimist and Aussies will again come up trumps. I hope so.

The Political Sword gives truth to this quote by the great Orwell

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act"

We are not in a battle for the truth we are in a war - more power to you in 2013 Ad and Lyn..........and thank you


it is not much but I have started a FB page called "the Abbottoir"

https://www.facebook.com/TheAbbottoir?ref=hl



xiaoecho

January 1. 2013 07:59 PM

LadyInRed

Just had to share ths from Twitter it is so good. It is the best mirror being held up to MSM I have seen in a very long time.

twitter.com/.../1

LadyInRed

January 1. 2013 08:11 PM

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)


TT: Relevance deprivation, eh? Smile

First, there’s a massive game of chess to play out (and chess was a metaphor you threw into the cauldron a while back to describe the way any political person and party has to function every second of every day: aware of the next miniscule to huge to cosmic steps in strategy to retain/win the game of governance).

You know, even Katherine Murphy of Fairfax has said within the last couple of weeks that this current minority government has been fascinating, and even exciting, even throughout all our absolutely legitimate partisan despair, and then hope. I think Bernard Keane of Crikey came up with a similar statement. Perhaps in some ways a minority government is closer to the ideological ideal for representation that some of us hold: - consensus, based on negotiation and compromise. On the other hand, the minority government we have has sometimes been ‘hung’ by the very fact that it doesn’t hold a majority – and as with many, my own feeling is that some reforms are being short-changed by the need to compromise – asylum seekers is just one issue; the mining rent tax another.

A newly-minted majority Gillard government by the end of 2013 that can eschew, for example, the Christian right and properly address equality in marriage, may seem to be less exciting than the current ‘hold-your-breath-what’s-next?’ minority situation is. BUT, and here’s the rub, to plough through 2013 to an election that returns a majority ALP government (yup, I know – lots of mixed metaphors) doesn’t mean that the work and commitment of the citizens of Oz, is over. As I suspect you well know, believe and feel, a centralised government needs citizens to work at the edges of reforms for their implementation – and you don’t need to be a paid-up public servant to play a part. Since you’re a betting kinda Turkey, I’ll bet you’ll survive beyond ALP 2013 electoral success and will be as busy, energetic and inspiring as all get out while changing the world still. Just talk to me sometime about the whats and the wheres. Smile

To another issue TT: You and PvO!

Have been chewing over the offer to you and others from PvO.

You say the 4th estate can’t be trusted not to simply use members of the fifth estate. There’s some truth in that.

You also say in the most poetic of ways, of course, that anyone going on his show doesn’t have control of the button, the cuts, the way you’ll be viewed, by the viewer. Indeed, no.

BUT, if PvO is looking for lefty bods as talking heads, then it seems to me you have some power in this situation. If, as you also suggest, the 4th needs the 5th more than the 5th needs the 4th, then why can’t you (and others) dictate some of the terms around the content you would be prepared to discuss as a guest on the show?? There is no requirement to spin off into the legalising of weed, or the desperation of the Palestinians if one has said – I will act as a talking head if the questions and discussion relate to e.g. the comparative policies of the current government and opposition as we go into an election year -- surely?

Maybe one way to think about using an opportunity like this is to think about who the 5th is trying to reach until the election. It may be that PvO’s channel has rusted on rightists, but even they have others -children, grandchildren, friends - who may not be quite so rusted on, and can be influenced It is true, I believe emphatically and from experience, that we never, ever know who exactly we may reach or influence when we have an opportunity to speak in a, or any, public space.

And not all bloggers who have wound up speaking within forms of the #msm have gone to the ‘dark side’ Smile. Greg Jericho is one who seems to be able to be talking head within the #msm and still stay firm to his principles on his own blog. Andrew Welder pops up on ABCRN, but remains fierce, caustic and withholding no punches on his blog.

There’s another truth in here somewhere. We will go to this next election with an #msm existing, although changing and diminishing. There is simply no denying this. The 4th estate still has reach into the citizenry we would want to see informed. Many people on this blog alone have been putting the #msm to the sword for lack of balance, for rightist leanings and etc. Is someone from the #msm starting to listen? And if they are – can the 5th afford to ignore this?

It is also true that some of us find it much easier to write rather than to speak publically (I’m one) and that’s a wholly legitimate reason, amongst many many others, to say ‘no’.

But this last thought – when I saw your interchange on Twitter, TT, I thought, truly: if you don’t say yes, please suggest to PvO names of those who might: would Ad? would Bushfire Bill? Would whomever else you and the stalwart experienced others on this blog know?

A chance to get left talking heads into the #msm that still has and will have power in this newly minted year and unto the election feels too good to let go.

Enough, and bon nuit, mon ami (and if you want yet more school-person French, back to Twitter you need to go).

Happy New Year and many years after TT Smile.


Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)

January 1. 2013 08:25 PM

LadyInRed

I will not be lectured on sexism and mysogyny by this man NOT NOW NOT EVER

storify.com/.../prime-minister-of-australia-julia-gillard-speech-o

LadyInRed

January 1. 2013 08:53 PM

DMW

TT,
we are still (hopefully) a long way out from the election, definitely in the sense that a week is a long time in politics, so it is a bit rash to be making predicitions. Never the less I will offer some thoughts.

My reading is that the result may hinge on what happens in the 'smaller' states and the two territories.

In the ACT (currently 2 ALP, 0 LNP) although Gai Brodtmann is on a fairly safe margin (9% + I think) her seat of Canberra could swing to the Libs with the right candidate for the Libs.

In the NT (currently 1 ALP, 1 LNP) Warren Snowden's seat of Lingari is marginal and there is some feeling that the previously rusted on ALP vote has swung to the Libs. He could have a big fight on his hands. Solomon is more marginal but the Indigenous vote appears to swinging away from Labor.

Tasmania (currently 4 ALP, 1 Indie) I only have small snippets of info but it seems Bass is ready to swing back to the Libs and despite or because of Wilkie Denison 'could' go that way. Hard to read but it may end up even worse as Tassie tends to swing hard when it swings.

SA (currently 6 ALP, 5 LNP) I have no info or sense of what is going on in SA maybe you or Jason could fill in the gaps.

WA (currently 3 ALP, 12 LNP) Smith in Perth and the remarkable Melissa Parke in Freemantle appear to be fairly safe Gary Gray in Brand appears to be in strife. Whispers say he is very worried and working 'overtime' on holding the seat. The WA Lib machine seems to be like Big Ben, working like clockwork and chiming with the right notes at the right times. Some are being as bold as to suggest a Lib clean sweep but I think it is fanciful but the ALP may well lose Gray and possibly Smith.

The big states are a bit of a nightmare to call at the moment. Depending on candidates it is possible one or two more Indies may pop up and Bob Katter and his party are wild cards to say the least.

There are enough doubtful and possibly swinging seats in the 'small' states that could be the difference and we could be sitting on the edge of our seats waiting for the WA numbers to come in.

We could also still easily end up with another hung parliament.

DMW

January 1. 2013 09:02 PM

Ad astra reply

Folks
I’ve just now read your comments since last night and your complimentary remarks.  Thank you to you all for your encouragement.

I’ve been working today on the first political piece for this year, which I will post when we resume at the beginning of February.  DMW, you may be interested to know that it is on the subject you mention - the myth-makers and their imaginary world.  It’s a fascinating subject.

Please keep your comments coming.  I’m taking a spell from commenting, but you are sustaining the momentum.

Ad astra reply

January 1. 2013 09:28 PM

DMW

Hi Ad,
I’ve been working today on the first political piece for this year, ... the myth-makers and their imaginary world.  It’s a fascinating subject.

Ahhh, so the tea leaves portended some truth Tong

DMW

January 2. 2013 12:38 AM

TalkTurkey

This just fits 140 characters on Twitter

TalkTurkey‏@TalkyTurkey

So Come On Liberals whatcha gunna do?
Stay with Abbortt the Human Poo?
Swap to Turdball,the very same stuff?
HaHa Hockey,BroughBroughBrough!


Double, double, They're in trouble . . .

Doncha just love it! Smile

TalkTurkey

January 2. 2013 01:00 AM

Patriciawa

Hey. DMW, what this nonsense about a 'foregone delusion' of Labor one day having a 'comfy majority.'  That will happen as surely as night follows day if you don't waste time with other doubting Thomases pouring cold water on the idea.

Wasn't it wonderful to have those Cabinet papers released today of the Hawke years with all commentary and footage to remind us of those golden years with Labor?  You can see which temperament and mood is the vote catcher between dour Keating and happy Hawkie.  Thank God it's Hawkie's out there now promoting PMJG!

Patriciawa

January 2. 2013 01:07 AM

Patriciawa

Lady in Red, thank you for all your lovely links.  I do follow them, but these days after reading I'm too tired to lift my heavy arm to the keyboard to comment as I might have before.

Goodnight all old friends, specially Nasking.

  

Patriciawa

January 2. 2013 03:13 AM

Woodypear

I too wish to add my congratulations on a wonderful site.  But I have a question.  This was brought about by M Turnbull's comment that there needs to be a site which could critically analyze all comments by politicians and judge whether they are accurate or not.  I thought this would be a great idea (still do) but couldn't think of anyone who could honestly present themselves as unbiased.  Whilst I find this site to be very much to my liking, I fear that I am not being fair to the conservative side of politics by listening to their arguments.  I have only found sites that present only emotional and inaccurate comments.  Could someone please direct me to a site(s) that are considered to be rational representations of the conservatives.  I think it's important to understand their argument(s) - otherwise I run the risk of being too one-sided.

Woodypear

January 2. 2013 03:37 AM

TalkTurkey

Jan
Thank you, and others who have expressed interest in Professor van Onselen's proposition to me and two others.

I'll say at outset, No, I think Wink I will not be appearing on his program. Wink

I am more interested in the fact of the offer itself.

I don't know his program. I only know him via his tweets and others' comments to and about him.

On Twitter we are equal, and as TalkTurkey I have no ego to protect. My tweets are always completely honest, if people don't believe TT, well you know what Hockey would say. I am uninhibited by thoughts of a public persona.

Moslem women wearing full burqas tell us they feel they can be more true to themselves by their anonymity. Personally I do find the garb disconcerting but I see their point.

The name of the late lamented blogsite Larvatus Prodeo means 'Masked I Come'. Again, relative anonymity, conferring disinhibition of expression (= honesty), is at the core of it.  

Anyway, just because I like to write doesn't necessarily mean there is a frustrated Media star commentator im me just waiting to break out. Though equally there might be too! And most of all, I value my family name too much to subject it to the vagaries of a few-second grab on commercial TV. Not that ABC would be any better, and to be fair to Professor van Onselen, probably worse.  

If I am playing games with him, well so be it, again we're equal in that I am sure. (But he started it.) The game is serious to me, I am  not persuaded that it is to PvO. In my limited experience he has seemed Janustic. I am definitely committed to Labor, I've nothing to hide wrt to that, my opinions are in writing, I say nothing libellous nor violence-inditing; I criticise and argue with those with whom I disagree, taunt those who annoy me, and openly though judiciously insult those whom I really despise. John Stuart Mill would give TalkTurkey a tick, so why would my true identity as Liar~Bird be relevant to anything?

Now, I reckon what I might do, without clearing it yet with Ad astra, is to reverse the invitation, to ask Professor van Onselen to visit The Political Sword, and to open his defensive position concerning his Profession to examination challenge and challenge. He would of course stand to gain serious respect from the 5th Estate. He openly pooh-poohs the Twitterverse as infra his dig, I've seen him say so in the last day or so.

Well there's a few people here I'd like to see him say that of. Our host in special. Oh and btw Ad astra doesn't need to out himself either, for everyone to know that he speaks pure sincerity too.

What do you think Ad astra? Comrades?

Will you give Professor van Onselen a warm welcome here? Smile


TalkTurkey

January 2. 2013 03:45 AM

TalkTurkey

*inditing* = inciting X inducing
Just explaining. Not excusing. Smile

TalkTurkey

January 2. 2013 03:46 AM

TalkTurkey

*inditing* = inciting X inducing
Just explaining. Not excusing. Smile

TalkTurkey

January 2. 2013 08:58 AM

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)



TT: Thank you for adding more on your thinking about the PvO ‘offer’. I have a better understanding of this: Again, relative anonymity, conferring disinhibition of expression (= honesty), is at the core of it. And had not given that issue enough thought inasmuch as it might relate to bloggers, names and pseudonyms. (Every day in every way am learning Smile)

For TPSers: a bit of reading (or watching) from bloggers posting in the last few days:

Abbott: London Calling Sensitive Tony
How Tony Abbott uses deflection, misdirection and deception to avoid tough questions on #Ashbygate (video)
sensitivetony.wordpress.com/.../

Facts are sacred, but subject to interpretation Ben Eltham
The Member for Wentworth called on Australian entrepreneurs to establish an online fact-checking service, similar to US examples like Politifact or FactCheck.org.

There has already been some interesting commentary about his remarks, from both bloggers and the mainstream media. But what about fact-checking Turnbull himself? Is the Australian media really as gullible as he claims?

Using Politifact's sliding scale of truthfulness, I'd rate that claim "half-true". Some of what Turnbull had to say at Woodford was bang-on. Some of it was clearly exaggerated.
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4448492.html

Preparing for the apocalypse one more time with Paul Sheehan ... Loon Pond
Put simply, and perhaps elegantly, Sheehan is a fool.

It's simply impossible to take anything he says seriously, and in his own funny way, he does enormous damage to the Fairfax brand, by making the rags that publish his clownish shallow tosh impossible to take seriously.

One minute he's off with the pixies and the Moncktons and the Plimers and the next minute he's hailing the learned scientific community for their learned ways ...
loonpond.blogspot.com.au/.../...one-more-time.html

#AshbyInquiryNow – the plot to overthrow the Government is ignored by the media Turn Left 2013
The day that Justice Rares handed down his decision in the Ashby-Slipper case was the day the media lost all interest in reporting the facts.

Until then, the focus had been on salacious gossip and innuendo, and smears against the government.

Once this case could no longer be used to smear the Government, it was of no use to the media.
turnleft2013.wordpress.com/.../

Brian Leveson - media personality 2012 Woolley Days
The year 2012 will not go down as a great year for the world’s media. While the world’s business-as-usual pattern of production and consumption sees it barrelling down a path towards a 4 degree increase in temperature by 2100, the focus of most media attention is ever increasingly the deeply superficial.  
nebuchadnezzarwoollyd.blogspot.com.au/.../brian-leveson-media-personality-2012.html

Anatomy of an interview Comment by Barry Tucker
Here is something you will not see very often: A post-mortem of the surgical dissection on live TV of a pathologically mendacious obfuscator. The surgeon is Kerry O’Brien, then anchorman of ABC TV’s 7.30 report. The “patient” is the now Leader of the Opposition in Australia’s federal Parliament, Tony Abbott. The commentator is Jack Robertson, columnist for The Sydney Morning Herald *Webdiary’s “Meeja Watch”.
truthinmediaresourcecentre.wordpress.com/.../

Prime Minister Gillard and Opposition leader Tony Abbott DO NOT Deserve Equal Billing Ya Think?
Back to the Twilight Zone...  It seems that it is now acceptable that whenever our Prime Minister addresses the nation, so does the Opposition Leader?  I am not quite sure when this started, though I did notice it at the ceremony when our Olympians came home and it is seriously not a good look!  A bit of googling shows that this has not been the norm in the past, nor does it happen in other countries?
yathink.com.au/.../prime-minister-julia-gillard-and-opposition-leader-tony-abbott-do-not-deserve-equal-billing,35

A Poet's Guide To Climate Change Mark Tredinnick
Thinking globally, acting locally. Weather starts a long way out and a long way back.  Weather starts with the sun and it never stops.  But weather manifests locally. It becomes the conditions one walks out into night and day, the heat or the cold, the blustery wind or the stillness, the drought or cold, the aridity or humidity, the high cloud or the low, the cyclone or the heatwave, the sea breeze or the land breeze, the valley or the katabatic scarp wind, the snow or frost or sleet or hail. Because of the way those large animals, the cells of high or low pressured air spinning clockwise or anticlockwise adapt to where they find themselves - at just this latitude and longitude, at just this altitude, at just this moment in time.  The weather is how the sky behaves when it turns up at your place.
www.abc.net.au/.../4426198#transcript

A little good news for Welshers keen to start the new year with a gloat or three ... Loon Pond
The good news from Victoria is that Victoria is a quivering mess, a jelly of a state ...

That's from the perspective of a New South Welsh person, tired of perennial boasting and inflated self-esteem of a kind frequently associated with a short person trying to compensate for a lack of height. A more kindly, empathetic and compassionate approach might be to wonder how the mighty V got itself into such a mess.
loonpond.blogspot.com.au/.../...shers-keen-to.html

Free speech and Rupert Murdoch’s The Australian John Passant
Rupert Murdoch’s The Australian has been getting itself, once again, in a tizz, this time over free speech. If it’s not ABC bias, or refugees, or AWU slush funds, or climate change ‘skepticism’, it’s that nasty Nazi-like Labor Government attacking free speech.
enpassant.com.au/.../

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)

January 2. 2013 09:10 AM

Tom of Melbourne

Woodypear, this is a site that pretends to “put politicians to the verbal sword”, but it does nothing of the sort.

Every press release and policy back flip of the government is endorsed by most here, there is no critical analysis of the government, just cheering and blaming the media for their woes.

thedailytrash.wordpress.com contains a humorous balance of left and right. Though because fools and apologists aren’t given an easy run, numbers are, these days, limited.

Tom of Melbourne

January 2. 2013 09:10 AM

2353

bob macalba - I always liked the Sex Pistols and their attitude, despite it being almost entirely a money making venture by Malcolm Maclaren (which rubs against the anti-establishment projection of the group to a large extent).

Woodpear - You've hit the crux of the problem in your last two sentences.  I don't believe there is a conservative leaning site that is based on discussion such as this one, Cafe Whispers and so on where criticism of the policies and practices of the progressive side of politics is permitted. That is despite the criticism sometimes disabusing the policy and practice of the progressive Governments/Oppositions around the Country.

The conservative leaning blogs I've seen are much more highly moderated (dissent such as that displayed by the tag team of Tom from Melbourne and Sick Ian Crisp as well as Hall, Voyager or the various [name] from [city] posters at the Cafe) would not appear in print in my experience.  Comments outside the "party line" are no appreciated and there seems to be a far greater reliance on "firing up the troops" on the latest message from on high.  I've seen blog type sites that have tried to retain a neutral outlook in the past.  Invariably the conservative ragbags posted so many comments that required moderation that the blog owner in two cases I know of gave up in disgust.

You also face the question of what is neutral balance.  Someone once suggested to me that true political balance is when both political tribes are yelling at you - which would place a heavy onus on a blog owner.  The other option is to have a team of moderators (as Whirlpool does) however specific moderation decisions are usually made by an individual moderator and by implication do always reflect the individuals preconceptions.

2353

January 2. 2013 09:12 AM

42 long

    My opinion  for what it is worth, is YES. The tree will be judged by the fruit it bears. Opinion is there to be challenged and a difference in value judgements  shouldn't rule out intelligent civil discourse. People who bag the contributor or the general tone of the site should go elsewhere, then everybody would be happy, but some come just to upset and annoy. We can all decide how PvO, contributes and he or anyone else could indulge under an assumed name anyhow.
  Regarding the head coverings, Bank robbers like them as they keep their anonymity that way. Male Terorists have assumed the guise of women including burqua,and escaped in disguise, so how can you justify requiring a motorcyclist having to remove his helmet in a service station and not require equal scrutiny of other persons. Would a passport photograph with a head covering have ANY validity?
  

42 long

January 2. 2013 09:56 AM

LadyInRed

Jenny Macklin's comment was offensive to many. It would be very difficult to live on $246, no matter how frugal you were. And if the comment was simply omitted from the transcript this was also a very stupid thing to do. She should qualify her statement. Newstart is clearly the carrot and stick approach. Not enough to get comfortable on and abuse but often the road for poverty for many. I think if you lose your job, for whatever reason, unless you get some sort of redundancy payment the first 2 or 3 months should be a higher payment while you try to find another job. And of course provide as much assistance as we can to help people find new employment.

LadyInRed

January 2. 2013 10:05 AM

Tom of Melbourne

I do find it entertaining that people here who are simply committed ALP barrackers, unquestioning followers, consider themselves “left leaning” or “left wing”.

Few are.

Issues of interest to people of a genuinely left/progressive persuasion include-
•  Asylum seekers
•  The rights of indigenous and disposed
•  Homosexual rights
•  Education access, HECS etc
•  Integrity and transparency in government
•  Adequate support for those genuinely in need
•  Foreign aid directed to supporting overseas programs

As far as I can see, Ad Astra has not written a single thread that critically examines any of these issues.

When a contributor points out the failings of the government on these and other issues, the response of the barrackers here is to commence name calling.

This isn’t a “left wing” site. It is the ALP’s version of the Collingwood Cheer Club.

Tom of Melbourne

January 2. 2013 10:09 AM

42 long

LiR It's certainly not a good look. This subject is an extremely difficult one to structure and explain. All welfare that trails off to a job situation has a steep effective tax rate in it. It does cost extra money to apply for jobs. Having to fit in with childcare must be one of the more difficult aspects of it. Childcare as we structure it is expensive and wil become more so, and dictates the times that a woman will be able to work. More well off people use nanny's and if you band a few together it is soon cheaper.

42 long

January 2. 2013 10:21 AM

DMW

Patriciawa @ 1:00 AM,
if you wish to treat it as nonsense please, feel free to do so. It is an offer open to one and all.

To mind, and to the mind of many of the more seasoned observers of the political landscape it is a nonsense to come to the foregone delusion that either side will definitely win the next election.

It will take incredible discipline and focus for Labor to pull off what, at this point in time, appears to be an unlikely victory.

Sadly, only two days into the year and we already have seen a ministerial minder drop their boss deeper into the poo that the minister created for themselves. It is only one episode but once again gives the opponents ammunition to prove that Labor is incompetent at everything including coverups.

So Pwa, by all means, treat it as nonsense and let others be free to make their own assessment.

DMW

January 2. 2013 10:34 AM

LadyInRed

Further to Newstart and single parents having to go on to it. I think the idea behind puting single parents onto Newstart means that they can enforce certain principles to get people back into the workforce. I believe once on Newstart you have to start actively engaging in looking for work. So that means changing societies mindset, not easy.

It comes into force after your child reaches the age of 8, so for the future recipients it gives plenty of time for people to engage in some form of education to boost employment opportunities. And finally, I guess the most pressing reason is because it should be the aim of all governments to stop generational welfare dependancy. This is the most pressing problem, generational welfare is like a cancer, and it is such a waste and drain on society. It leads to depression, hopelessness, mental and physical health problems that ultimately cost this nation dearly. So its a tricky problem this balance between doing the right thing as a society to help people and to not help them to the point where they forget how to help themselves.....an interesting dilemma.

That's not to say that Macklin's comment was good....it was insensitive.

LadyInRed

January 2. 2013 10:39 AM

Jason

Troll of Melbourne

Who cares? No one forces you to come here! if you don't like it F#CK OFF!

Jason

January 2. 2013 10:42 AM

Ad astra reply

Woodypear
Thank you for your comment.  I’m glad you find TPS useful.

I am unable to name a site that presents ‘rational representations of the conservatives’.  Others, who comment here, may.

Perhaps Tom of Melbourne can name some sites, as he seems to be of conservative bent.  I say that because it seems that his only purpose in coming here is to criticize TPS, me, those who comment here, and PM Gillard and her Government.  I don’t know why he bothers commenting on a site that he regards with such contempt.  We ignore him, as responding is pointless.

I’m sure you will judge TPS against your own criteria, not ToM’s.

I would like to see a fact-checking site emerge.  I am not aware of a local one.

Janet
Thank you for your interesting list of links, which I shall browse during the day.

TT
Anyone can comment here.  I doubt though if PvO would consider it appropriate for him to do so.  Does he comment at all in the Fifth Estate?

Ad astra reply

January 2. 2013 10:58 AM

LadyInRed

Yes 42 long there is also the issue of childcare expenses whilst searching for a job. But one would imagine that the job interviews etc. could be done whilst children are at school? It is a difficult and sensitive situation, but I then many single parents do manage to work and hold a job. I am mindful that I don't know what it is like to be single and have children and not work and be non-skilled. But I do know what generational welfare does to families, the sense of hopelessness that it can foster, ultimately it costs society more. So programs that encourage education, that encourage work and encourage a change of mindset are better for all, Gonski feeds into this. But we do have to be careful of not plunging more people into poverty. So its a hard call.

I give a Gonski!

LadyInRed

January 2. 2013 11:09 AM

DMW

From the Newspapers ...

What the Front Pages are saying...
A cameo appearance of some Aus newspapers from Front Pages Today

The Australian  http://goo.gl/3bnTO
US economy pulled back from abyss
Coalition seizes initiative amid Gonski delays  http://goo.gl/nM0FB

The Sydney Morning Herald  http://goo.gl/1kOHj
A bubble and squeak of the untried, lame and novices http://goo.gl/9HdOa
I could live on Newstart: Macklin  http://goo.gl/I6ZTr

The Daily Telegraph  http://goo.gl/JXc7d
Aussie beauty’s mystery death
Minister’s dole claim struck from the record

The Age  http://goo.gl/j6tKW
One punch many tragedies
Minister riles welfare groups (same article as SMH - different headline)

The Herald Sun  http://goo.gl/0wNCf
Chilling Out
FREE TO ATTACK

The Courier Mail  http://goo.gl/7NTLf
Suddenly it’s cool to hose
EMERGENCY BYPASS

The Adelaide Advetiser  http://goo.gl/ApkdY
Tears for a mate

The NT Times  http://goo.gl/7f7VB
Bu@@er NO CROCS but:
New Year Doo A Real Riot

I'd forgotten the effort involved so no promises but From the Newspapers may make more cameo appearances during this summer

DMW

January 2. 2013 11:26 AM

LadyInRed

Hmmmmm speculating possible election dates with some good reasoning :

australianpolitics.com/.../...lection-be-held.html

LadyInRed

January 2. 2013 11:43 AM

James Adelaide

Ad Astra,

it is nice to be noticed.

I found your site about mid year, and now check it every few days.  I very much appreciate Lynn's Links.  I have not found anything like them for coverage and utility /interest.

I do not comment often, but I am following, and appreciate your, and your posters' thoughts.

Thank you

James Adelaide

January 2. 2013 12:05 PM

TalkTurkey

Gandhi's master stroke to end British rule in India was just that.

Britain used to tax the people for salt, essential to life as it is, and made it illegal for people to make their own by evaporating seawater. This tax above all was hated for the financial burden it placed on the people, but despised even more for the yoke it represented. Gandhi began a great walk during which he was joined by hundreds of thousands of followers, and together they proceeded to the sea, and made their own salt. This simple act confounded the British, and ended their occupation. I don't know of any parallel in history.

But here's one.

Until now the Media, source for the People of information about the World, have had the game to themselves. Reuters, AAP, Murdoch Media, very big enormous gigantic Founts of Wisdom. You used sometimes in fury write to The Advertiser a bitter letter about something, and sometimes, just sometimes, you'd get part thereof published. (At least though, everybody in town would inevitably read it, there was that about it.)

Well that's not the way of things any more. The People own their own media now, and we love it, now we're making our own salt, and what's more, rubbing it into the little wounds we make in the Massive Media. We don't need them so much any more.

The Founts of Wisdom didn't see it coming, and they hate and fear it.

And their response has been cowardly, denialist, puerile. Like a nasty cowardly kid retreating into his nasty fort when a nice kid calls his bluff, hurling abuse and anything nasty that comes to hand. (Tom Sawyer has a fight with a kid who does that.)

You know the story of Rip van Winkle, who is enchanted by Little People while hunting, and goes to sleep in the wilderness for twenty years? ... He awakes, and returns to his village, and everything's different, the people don't know or trust him, the dogs menace him, the kids throw anything nasty that comes to hand...

...Well, here's Margo Kingston, long one of our finest journalists until a decade ago: she gave the game away, I don't know her reasons but she has worked in some kind of nursing since then. Well Abbortt's misogyny, hypocrisy and general behaviour has so incensed her that she has been tempted back into public writing, to tell important truths about Abbortt, none of them to his credit. Surprise surprise, nobody in the MSM was interested in airing her stories...

But Independent Australia did, thanks and praise be to David Donovan et al for that.

Well, now Margo is like Rip van Winkle, amazed and horrified at the changes, just as we have always said. But of course we have been as the mythical Slow-Boiled Frogs, while she comes to the scene with the shock of the new. She has discovered social media and she loves it. Most importantly, she is like that naive little boy who called the emperor on his nakedness. And Boy Margo Kingston does make a great call at that. She is a tactical weapon, Good On You MARGO!

Let Professor van Onselen come to us instead. Without his hand on the kill button, honestly openly and fully to argue his case on behalf of a Media* who have, according to the 5th Estate, failed us miserably: worse, betrayed the People in refusing to tell truth,(eg.climate change denialism, and the state of the economy) and in telling mistruth (e.g Weapons of Mass Destruction, and the state of the economy).

This is my medium.
Relative anonymity, (though anyone who wants to can easily find who I am, it's openly linked to on Twitter.) So I don't have to pose, I say it straight.
Amateurism, owing nobody obeisance.
Truthfulness, guaranteed against my reputation forever.**

I didn't sign up on TPS to try to take a Media bridge by storm. Five second grabs, nah. Bugger 'em, I love it here where we can talk turkey.

Wonder if that's how I got the name. Smile

* "...a Media..." ... singular indefinite article, plural noun! Yet it's true! The Media which should be so diverse has become one dull stodgy coagulated lump, well Professor van Onselen that's the view of lots of us here. If you are prepared to be different we'll applaud you. As we do with Margo!        
    
** (As *J*U*L*I*A* and Craig Thomson claim likewise: I don't think I've ever told a public lie nor distorted facts by spinning them, I call it straight as I see it. If I were trying to make a public image for my real Liar~Bird self nekkid as a Jay-Bird, I might, erm, well you know, well I don't have to do I. Maybe as TT I could get a job as *sources within the Labor Party*. Or I could be quoted: "A certain Turkey commented ...)  

TalkTurkey

January 2. 2013 12:17 PM

Jason

Lady in Red,
           Here's Victoria Rollinson's take on the "maklin media beat up"!

victoriarollison.com/.../

Jason

January 2. 2013 12:21 PM

Ad astra reply

James Adelaide
Thank you for your comment.  I’m glad you are finding TPS useful.

Lyn’s links are such a valuable resource.  She will resume her Daily Links in February.  In the meantime, Janet is providing regular links, as are other commenters.

I hope you will return once we resume normal posting in February.

Ad astra reply

January 2. 2013 12:22 PM

LadyInRed

TT great analogy. We make our own salt now. So don't print crap it can't be that hard!

Apparently Jenny Macklin is being egged on to live on Newstart - she has only gone and opened her mouth to change feet.

LadyInRed

January 2. 2013 12:34 PM

DMW

Maybe, just a little maybe, it will be a good year.

The Age Editorial offers me and all decent Australians a glimmer of hope.

HISTORICALLY, politicians know that leadership is about doing what is right, appealing to the best in people, about decency and honesty. They do not denigrate and demonise. They do not indulge in cynical, dog-whistle politics. They do not play to populism, fear or ignorance ...

Here, then, is the speech The Age would sorely love to hear, and that Australians have a right and a need to hear, from one or both prime ministerial candidates:

''My fellow Australians, we live in one of the world's most prosperous nations. Together, over many generations, we have built a society that cherishes freedom, that protects individual and collective rights, a society based on respect and dignity.

...

''There are times when we must reflect on our views in the light of evidence and compelling arguments for change. There is no dishonour in evolving one's position; indeed, it is incumbent on all of us to have the courage to always seek better results. It is time to rethink our policies ...


Read more: www.theage.com.au/.../those-seeking-refuge-deserve-dignity-

DMW

January 2. 2013 12:48 PM

DMW

The summer slowdown can still be fun.

Last summer it was the Media Mix

This summer it is:

[b]The j4gypsy jive[b]

Thanks for your great efforts in doing The Jive Janet

DMW

January 2. 2013 12:48 PM

LadyInRed

Thanks Jason. I guess I have got a bit caught up in it too. Macklin is a seasoned politician, but everyone can get caught out. I am not sure I totally agree with Rollinson that it was not a fair question to ask. We would be rubbing our hands with glee if Abbott stumbled into it, or indeed walked away from it. It certainly was a typical question, there was no right answer. The point the change is to encourage single parents back into the workforce, that can only be done on Newstart. I guess its a tough love approach, and that's not an easy sell.

The conversation this country needs to have is what is fair as a Newstart payment, how do we stop generational welfare, recognise that generational welfare is a problem and puting people into poverty is also not a solution. Macklin is in a hard place now, I don't know how she will get out of it.

LadyInRed

January 2. 2013 01:07 PM

AngryBee

Happy New Year to all at TPS

Does anyone know what's going on with the New Matilda site?  Its displaying as a "Reported Attack Page"

Reported Attack Page!
        
This web page at newmatilda.com has been reported as an attack page and has been blocked based on your security preferences.
          
Attack pages try to install programs that steal private information, use your computer to attack others, or damage your system.Some attack pages intentionally distribute harmful software, but many are compromised without the knowledge or permission of their owners.


Is it possible some conservative troll/geek hacked their website...?

AngryBee

January 2. 2013 01:09 PM

MWS

All those complaining about the changes to the SPP should ask themselves - when should single parents re-enter the workforce.  When their youngest child is 8, 12 or 16.  After Howard changed the law in 2006, new SPP claimants had to return to work when their youngest child turned 8, but "grandfathered" those already on the SPP until their youngest turned 16.  All the current government is doing is treating all the SPP claimants the same.

It was a clever move by Howard.  Only a few people would be affected immediately after the change (the new claimants) and there would be no organised opposition because there was  no "block" of SPP people to lobby for change. Exactly the same process was used to make it much harder for people to claim the DSP, by changing the criteria but limiting it to new applicants only.

Remember, too, that most people who claim SPP do so for a limited amount of time, usually directly after a relationship breakdown.  Most SPPs find work and don't rely on the SPP to maintain them for the rest of their life.

While we need to support parents raising children, we need to prevent people thinking that having children is a lifestyle choice that should be funded by Government (ie the taxpayers).  "Grandfathering" the SPPs who claimed before 2006 also provided a perverse disincentive to getting off the SPP - if they left work and tried to get back on the SPP, they would be a new applicant and would lose money.  Much better to stay on the SSP and keep the money.

Remember as well that the primary cost for all people is housing.  Rentals are incredibly high, and rent assistance is tokenistic at best. There are two classes of people -those who own their own home, or have Government housing, and those in the private rental market which consumes nearly all their income.

Housing is an issue which no Governments in Australia want to address.

MWS

January 2. 2013 01:14 PM

LadyInRed

Former senior News Ltd executive Rodney E. Lever says the funeral of Dame Elisabeth Murdoch has highlighted the dysfunctional nature of Rupert Murdoch’s family.



www.independentaustralia.net/.../

LadyInRed

January 2. 2013 01:24 PM

Bacchus

AngryBee:

There's no malware on NM. The issue was an ad that has now been removed. We've contacted Google - warning should be removed soon. Happy NY!
twitter.com/newmatilda/status/285626322041044992

Bacchus

January 2. 2013 01:24 PM

TalkTurkey

LiR said

Hmmmmm speculating possible election dates with some good reasoning :

australianpolitics.com/.../...lection-be-held.html

"So, it’s October 19?"
"■Or October 12. Or September 7. Or September 14… Or …"


I actually called it for September 14 a while back because that is the date I first posted on TPS in 2010. But it also would be ideal. Not major finals. Not in winter, though the weather is less reliable than a bit later. Later if anything else though, but no later than October 12 which also looks good. I'm sure you can start betting on the date on Sportsbet if you want ...

My Eye of Time only sees a general view, Voice of Heart was what prompted my calling that date 14th September, it will be my 3rd anniversary writing here, it will be the day after Ad's 5th first TPS posting anniversary, and it is also the Ides of September, the time in 2012 of Abbortt's skewering by Sales & Wilkinson.

Exactly on cue with my Eye of Time prediction of course. Smile
Bit of a fluke? Well I was right anyway.

Anyway, September 14th earliest, October 12th latest I'm calling. Anywhere within that.

But it doesn't mean The Poll is halfway between.

That is up to *J*U*L*I*A* alone.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DMW Your From the Newspapers post is superb!
Thank you very much.

Woodypear you raise an interesting point. Can there possibly be a rational defence of the political Right? Well not really, no, that's why you can't find a decent RW website, with the accent on decent. Decency has simply gone missing from the Right. Devoid of credible leadership, they have no basis in truth, so they smear and obfuscate and fulminate and lie instead. It's what they do, and we don't.
They think if we tell the truth, they have to lie.
If we behave decently, they must behave indecently.
If we are goodwilled, they must be illwilled.

Makes it tough for reasonable people.


James Adelaide,
You do, you do get noticed here. Everybody does. Welcome.


The Political Sword:
         The Place to be Seen in Twenty Thirteen!

Ad, Yes, to Peter van Onselen's credit he does front up on Twitter, though he gets a bit twisted up about it and threatens to leave never to return... but then he does. So he might take up the offer. I will make it clear to him that yes he does have an open invitation to write here, just to put the issue beyond doubt.

TalkTurkey

January 2. 2013 01:54 PM

Jason

LIR,
   I agree the country needs to have the conversation not only about welfare but the whole tax system. one of the problems will be which "vested interest group" does the "Government" take money from to pay for it?

Jason

January 2. 2013 01:55 PM

Dan Gulberry

To Ad Astra

Many thanks for maintaining a consistent high standard of posts. I subscribe to TPS via RSS feed and always feel a sense of excitement when I see a new post has been made.

To LynLinking

Many thanks for all your hard work done on behalf of the Fifth Estate, and providing a never-ending supply of quality reading matter.

And to everyone involved with TPS, (authors, contributors and posters), I wish you all a very happy new year, and a Tory defeat in 2013.

Dan Gulberry

January 2. 2013 02:04 PM

KHTAGH

AA

   I noticed a comment on BB festive period site last week which I find might be a good theme to be repeated here, for those who link to the OM websites to instead do a concise appraisal of the article in italics, not the whole piece (plagiarism), but more like a bullet points makeup.

   Otherwise we are feeding into their delusion that they are relevant in the 5TH estate by increasing the hit score on their sites & hence increasing their revenue due to the advertisements on their pages. How does this sound?

   Gee I feel like I have been on holidays I have not posted since last yr. I had to many fried onions yesterday 🐥💨”  

KHTAGH

January 2. 2013 02:48 PM

Ad astra reply

Dan Gulberry
Thank you for your kind remarks.  This year will be an intense one for all of us in the Fifth Estate.  Your contributions will always be welcome.

KHTAGH
Do you have the link to the 'BB festive period site'?

Ad astra reply

January 2. 2013 02:49 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Jason, I pop in here sometimes because it is very entertaining.

•  With very few exceptions, it’s a site that mindlessly defends this government. The best that Ad Astra has come up with on asylum seekers is that “it is a vexed question”. Did he hold this position under the Howard Government?

•  Many here claim to be “left leaning”, but are completely flummoxed about how this sits with their defence of a range of very right wing government policies.

•  Most here applaud in this government the policies they condemned in the Howard Government.


Tom of Melbourne

January 2. 2013 02:51 PM

Ad astra reply

DMW
The Age editorial looks interesting.  When I tried the link, there was no content.  Have they 'pulled it'?

Ad astra reply

January 2. 2013 02:53 PM

Ad astra reply

AngryBee
Thank you - and a Happy New Year to you and a great 2013.

Ad astra reply

January 2. 2013 03:08 PM

LadyInRed

Yes Jason another good point, where is the extra money going to come from? Reality is the tax pool is shrinking, so unless more money flows into the coffers where would extra funding for Newstart come from?

The government now assists with parental leave, is committed to ensuring that more money is correctly targeted towards education to ensure no child gets left behind (Gonski, has and continues to make changes to the welfare system to try to shape and change generational welfare and to assist in education expenses, the NDIS, create an NBN which will enable more people to actually work, train, get health care and be educated from home no matter where they live, as well as set us up for the Asian century. So if you look at the bigger picture you can see that there is a direction this government wants to take this country. And it all makes sense and I hope it gets an opportunity to see out the changes, I hope this country can see the difference between a Liberal agenda to make more money for the wealthy (and throw a few crumbs to the middle class) and the Labor agenda of nurturing the human potential in all. No more only simply relying on the trickle down, it doesn't work, greed always corrupts in the end.

LadyInRed

January 2. 2013 03:19 PM

KHTAGH

AA


My pleasure

pbxmastragics.com/.../

KHTAGH

January 2. 2013 03:24 PM

DMW

Ad
have tried it in two different browsers and worked for me

Here it is again
www.theage.com.au/.../...spect-20130101-2c4bf.html

DMW

January 2. 2013 03:33 PM

Ad astra reply

DMW
Thanks, it’s working now.

KHTAGH
Thank you, I have bookmarked the site.  I enjoyed reading BB’s always-astute comment there.

Ad astra reply

January 2. 2013 03:43 PM

LadyInRed

TT

14 September sounds good to me.

Woodypear you raise an interesting point. Can there possibly be a rational defence of the political Right?

I think the two Malcolm's (Turnbull and Fraser) come to mind. But I note that Fraser left the Liberals because he can't stomach where they are headed, and whenever Turnbull opens his mouth these days he sounds like he should be in the Labor party, or at the very least not in the Liberal party. So I am with TT - the curent answer is NO.

LadyInRed

January 2. 2013 03:45 PM

Jason

LIR,
   I asked a "trainee" shock jock here in Adelaide last night while he was getting stuck into Macklin where would he take money from to give the unemployed more?
He was lost for words!I asked how many of your listeners majority of which are right wingers would like to see any of their "middle class" welfare  go to those they suddenly had sympathy for? none!
Sadly most people see the unemployed as bludgers who have had it too good for too long and should get less.

Jason

January 2. 2013 04:03 PM

Gravel

Jason

Thanks heaps for the link to Victoria's blog, it has a lot of rational questions.   It is, although much better, like what the old media used to do.....ah memories.

Talk Turkey

So, are you suggesting PVO write an article here, or just come here and have a sort of question and response type of thing?

We have just been to see 'Les Mis..'.  It was better than I was expecting, having seen it Melbourne live, which was the best live show I have ever seen.  I found I was crying by the time Fantine (sp) got thrown out of the factory, and got the point of sobbing by the end, even though I knew the whole story.  Puffy eyed, I then went and did some grocery shopping which was as traumatic as if I had run into Abbott. Smile

Gravel

January 2. 2013 04:04 PM

Ad astra reply

Folks
Good News

BREAKING NEWS Tuesday, January 1, 2013 11:19 PM EST from New York Times

House Passes Fiscal Deal, Averting Tax Increases and Spending Cuts

Ending a climactic fiscal showdown in the final hours of the 112th Congress, the House late Tuesday passed and sent to President Obama legislation to avert tax increases on most Americans and prevent large cuts in spending for the Pentagon and other government programs.

The measure, brought to the House floor less than 24 hours after its passage in the Senate, passed 257 to 167, with 85 Republicans joining 172 Democrats in voting to allow incomes taxes to rise for the first time in two decades. The bill is expected to be signed quickly by Mr. Obama.

READ MORE »


www.nytimes.com/.../...-takes-on-fiscal-cliff.html

Ad astra reply

January 2. 2013 04:07 PM

KHTAGH

Gravel

  which was as traumatic as if I had run into Abbott.

Nothing wrong with that, as long as your in a car & he's walking.

KHTAGH

January 2. 2013 04:55 PM

Casablanca

Victoria Rollison was spot on in writing that 'Unsurprisingly, the media is choosing not to focus on the technicalities behind the change to the Parenting Payment, to say nothing of the pros and cons of the policy.' victoriarollison.com/.../

I logged on today specifically to research which other supplementary benefits would be available to those parents who have been moved from the Parenting Payment to the Newstart Allowance. For those who have not clicked on Victoria’s helpful link* I can add that 'UNSURPRISINGLY' there are a number of supplementary benefits: partnered parents receive the Health Concession Card while single parents receive the more generous Pensioner Concession Card. Both partnered and single parents can receive rent allowance and mobility allowance. A pharmaceutical allowance and telephone allowance are also available but with stricter eligibility requirements for partnered parents.
* www.humanservices.gov.au/.../changes-to-parenting-payment

Both groups can earn some additional income, albeit not very generous, before their Newstart Allowance reduces by up to 60 cents in the dollar.

Thus, it is inaccurate and simplistic to suggest that the Newstart Allowance for partnered parents is $444.70 per fortnight or about $31 per day and for single parents, $663.70 per fortnight or about $38 per day.

David Wroe informs us that Ms Macklin earns $6321 a week - that's about $903 per day. So what! If someone who is currently on a Newstart Allowance aspires to a parliamentary career and becomes a Minister they would get the same.

Fate has dealt some people a pretty difficult lot - to have a couple of MPs engaging in a token/unrealistic charade to live on a welfare payment for a short time does little if anything to address the plight of those unfortunate enough in life to be on welfare support. I am disappointed that Adam Brandt has got caught up in such a popular-ism.

While I think that the quantum of the Newstart Allowance is too low, I also recognise that supplementary benefits are not inconsiderable. The Pension Concession Card, for example, will carry benefits like reduced car registration and discounts on utility charges as well as medical and pharmaceutical benefits.

David Wroe and others in the MSM are missing the point and the opportunity to widen the debate around the issue of tax and a fair go for all.

I’m not sure why the SMH Defence Correspondent got to write on Social Security matters but here is the link again:

Macklin won't release 'inaudible' recording. David Wroe. Defence correspondent. January 2, 2013 - 1:46PM

Read more: www.smh.com.au/.../...ecording-20130102-2c51m.html

Casablanca

January 2. 2013 05:45 PM

LadyInRed

Jason giving money is not in a lot of peoples DNA, pointing fingers however costs nothing. Good on you for highlighting the discrepancy. The problem is that the political argy bargy is more juicy, it gets peoples backs up whichever side you are on. Hockey says something about welfare and everyone sticks the boot in. Bowen tried to have a sensible discussion about refugees the political boots start kicking. The sensible soundbites get blasted out. This all plays into TAbbott's strategy of keep people angry and dissatisfied.

The truth is generational welfare is a problem, you are more likely to rely on welfare if you live in a household where no-one works.

This has been an interesting discussion and I appreciate everyone's imput. Thanks.

LadyInRed

January 2. 2013 06:18 PM

2353

LiR said,

[quote]This all plays into TAbbott's strategy of keep people angry and dissatisfied. ]/quote]

The problem with this strategy as Newman and Ballieu are finding out to their cost is that they can't "turn it off" when they get Government.  You'd hope that the LNP would learn from their self created problem in Queensland and Victoria; but on past experience it's hardly likely.

I'd also agree with the proposition that neither the Government or Opposition will win on the Single Parent thing.  As Jason correctly asks, what will you cut to fund the increase; and whatever Hockey or Abbott propose will come back to haunt them (and I suspect even they are aware of that).

2353

January 2. 2013 06:22 PM

Cuppa

www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...comment-here.aspx

There is an inconvenient fact that faces those who hold the "mainstream" media. The fact is this: The audience doesn't need their media outlets anymore.

Gone is the era when the audience was chained to local, terrestrial broadcasting. We don't have to stand for crap any longer. Thanks to the internet we can stream audio and video content from anywhere on earth, of whatever ideological persuasion we prefer, with the touch of a button.

And we can take this content with us wherever we go, just like we used to do with Radio of old. At home, in the car, on a plane.

Using specialised applications like STITCHER we can choose exactly the audio programs / presenters / podcasts we want to hear. We can tailormake the order that Stitcher plays them in, and skip instantly to the next program in the queue if we become bored at any time. Thanks to Stitcher it is possible to listen to talk audio content 24/7 without ever hearing a right wing voice.

Suck that up, MSM/ABC.

Thanks to blogs and twitter we can also pretty much filter out objectionable viewpoints / content. On Twitter, whenever a troll finds their way into your stream, you can block them! It's very cool and quite empowering to hold in one's hand the equivalent of the talkback radio host's "dump" switch.

For the most part, Old Media brought their audience decline upon themselves. If they hadn't biased their product so as to alienate the approximately 50 per cent of the audience who aren't of right-wing inclination, they would still be competitive right now, with perhaps DOUBLE the audience figures. Their choice. They chose to give us the middle finger. So it is with extreme satisfaction when I see progressives giving the Old Media the middle finger plus the cold shoulder in return.

With each passing day the number of people who would, in previous times, have been manipulated by the OM towards voting for right-wing parties is falling away. That is a good trend. We of the Fifth Estate should be accelerating it in whatever ways possible.

Cuppa

January 2. 2013 07:15 PM

Jason

2353,
    Through all the noise of Jenny Macklins comment today Mrs Jason asked "so where are all the parents that are supposed to pay child support,why do they seem to be the forgotten people in this debate"?

Jason

January 2. 2013 07:36 PM

uriah

Speaking of MSM/ABC I note with interest that News Ltd employee Joe Hildebrand has landed himself a gig on the ABC ?
I started to worry last year when Joe made a cameo appearance on The Hamster Wheel.I fear a plot is being hatched by the evil emperor.FYI Joe attended the Roopot institute for ethics in journalism,where he graduated with honours in comedy relief.
Armed with this information I have come up with three possible scenarios.
1-Joe is a N Ltd plant to counter any comedic derision directed at Abbott and his cronies.
2-Joe has seen the light and wishes to escape from the evil empire especially since he has been denied the choice appointments to The New York Bagle and The London Herring that the emporer promised him.
3-Joe has been invited to the ABC by Mark Scott to provide BALANCED reporting on issues of comedy.

uriah

January 2. 2013 08:11 PM

tiffany232

Jason, most men don’t go MIA when it comes to child support.  Good fathers and mothers generally want the best for their children.  In my son’s case he was paying $260 per week for his son and didn’t begrudge it for a second to see his boy every weekend. His tax cheques were sent to the childs’ mother and she used that to pay for plastic surgery.  I don’t know if this is still the case, but as a single parent she got free child care 5 days a week so that she could get some relief from my grandson.  In the thank god category she handed over full custody to my son when he turned 8. Of course she doesn’t pay maintenance. So there are stories from both sides. It’s a vexed issue. There’s good and bad on both sides.

tiffany232

January 2. 2013 08:16 PM

Ken

Lady in Red  

The reason Turnbull and Fraser sometimes sound more like ALP spruikers is that they come from the small “L” liberal side of the right.

I joined the Public Service just before the Dismissal in 1975 and worked in Aborginal affairs for 30 years.  Even as a “labour man” I always thought the best Ministers in that time were Cheney, Viner and Peter Baume, each from the same “liberal” side of the right.

The right has always contained “liberals” and “conservatives” – Howard used to like describing himself as an economic liberal but a social conservative.  But from the time of Thatcher, across the Western world, the “liberals” have been losing out to conservatives moving further to the right.  In maintaining the status quo, they operate on the principle, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”.  But what they consider “broke” can lead to major changes such as those made by Thatcher and Reagan.  They believe in the individual and a minimal role for Government.  As Peter Reith once said, if it’s in the Yellow Pages there’s no need for Government to provide it.   If they consider that unions are restricting “flexibility” in how bosses exploit their workforce, they will fix it – a la Thatcher and Howard.  They are more like a radical right, willing to enforce major changes (not normally a conservative approach) to return to what they perceive as the norm and to get Government out of people’s lives.  The Tea Party in America, and Abbott and Bernadi and their ilk are doing the same here.  There is no room for “liberals” in their approach.

At the same time, the political left has moved more towards centre-left – it has been losing its radical left.  Hence major left parties around the world, including here, are only slightly to the left of the right’s “liberals”.

As the left has moved towards the centre it has tended to abandon the old idea of equality of outcomes and now both left and right emphasise equality of opportunity.  The difference is in approach.  The right emphasises the individual and the family – society exists only as an agglomeration of families – and believes that the individual can get ahead by hard work, supporting the rich bastards with their labour.  The left of centre parties believe that Government has a role in ensuring equality of opportunity, and that society itself  plays a supporting role.  In essence, the difference now is between a “social” approach and an “individualistic” approach.

The Australian electorate has a split personality in this regard, liking the individual approach but also wanting Government support, which helps explain why some elections are close, or that when there is a swing it can be large – it depends which side of the personality wins on the day.

Ken

January 2. 2013 08:28 PM

Woodypear

Thanks people for your replies to my question - they more or less back up what I thought.  I am constantly checking myself and my beliefs/opinions to make sure I see both sides of an argument.  I was doubting myself as I could find very few logical contra views to the 'majority' of what the government is attempting.  Oh, Ad Astra, thanks for the lead - my copy of "The Price of Civilization" just arrived in the mail and I'm glued to it (loved the preface!).

Woodypear

January 2. 2013 09:05 PM

2353

Jason & tiffiany232 - on top of the Single Parent allowance, there is also Family Tax Payments (if you are on Newstart you would have to qualify for the full whack), Education allowance, an almost free education system health care card and so on.  While I can understand why people are protesting about losing money, it really doesn't bear up to much scrutiny does it?

Which leads nicely to an article here -> www.brisbanetimes.com.au/.../...0130101-2c41y.html suggesting that while we are all criticising the US for their gun laws (or lack thereof), we have some pretty funny ideas here on education and death duties.

2353

January 2. 2013 09:24 PM

Shirley

Newman planning to sell off schools, a taste of what we could expect under a LNP Abbott government perhaps?

Education Minister John-Paul Langbroek refuses to rule out state schools sell-off

www.couriermail.com.au/.../story-e6freoof-1226546606798

Shirley

January 3. 2013 07:45 AM

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)


TT: I like where you’ve landed with the PvO issue – reversing the invite to make it from the fifth to the fourth, and encouraging him into this space, if he will come. Thank you for letting us hear your ‘out loud’ thinking (loving the way your mind and words work).

DMW: About that jive – you mean this one maybe Smile http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLoeuQRTEp0

LiR, MWS, Casablanca: Re the parenting payment changes kicking in from 1/1/13. Barry Tucker had been trying to get information from local MPs and also Fed Ministers when this issue was prominent a few months ago. He kindly shared with me whatever responses he had (because I have a single parenting sister and was, indeed, concerned). One reply came from an adviser to Bill Shorten and included the following info, much of which this discussion has already picked up, I think:

Newstart recipients are encouraged to take up part-time or full-time work and become self-reliant. This is reflected in the structure of the income test, which ensures that recipients who undertake any level of work will always be better off than those who receive only Newstart Allowance, and in the structure of the activity test, under which people who work part-time or full-time can have their job search requirements reduced.

To support single parents in their transition to work from 1 January 2013, single principal carer parents on Newstart allowance will be able to take advantage of a more generous income test that will allow these parents to earn around $400 more per fortnight before they lose eligibility for Newstart Allowance. In addition …the Government has tripled the tax-free threshold to $18,200 from 1 July [2012] – for a parent earning $20,000, this will mean an extra $600 in their pocket. The new Schoolkids bonus announced in the Budget also provides financial support upfront to support eligible families in meeting the costs of schooling.

In addition, from March 2013, a new Income Support Bonus will be paid to Newstart Allowance recipients and similar payments to help build a buffer against unexpected costs. The amount of Income Support bonus will be $210 per year (for a person who is single) paid in two instalments of $105 … The Income Support bonus is tax-free, is not means-tested, and will be indexed to keep pace with inflation.

Single principal carer parents transferring from Parenting Payment to Newstart Allowance will continue to have access to the existing range of supplementary benefits, including Rent Assistance, child care fee assistance, family assistance payments and the Pensioner Concession Card. Single parents are also paid at the higher rate of ‘with child’ Newstart Allowance.


One of the problems with the easy ‘sensationalising’ by the #msm of the shift of single parents to Newstart is the truly poor way in which the government’s ministers have explained ‘the whole package’. Yes, it is detailed, but it isn’t rocket communication to grab the 4 or 5 salient ‘money in hand’ points and to give some total weekly income predictions for varying family make-ups. Sigh.

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)

January 3. 2013 08:46 AM

Truth Seeker

Morning Swordsters, with the QLD gov talking about doing away with compulsory voting and selling off some schools, the question is how much would an Abbott gov look like Newmans?

With this in mind, the question is asked!

truthseekersmusings.wordpress.com/.../

Cheers  Smile

Truth Seeker

January 3. 2013 09:23 AM

Gravel

Truth Seeker

Well done, I've posted a comment on your site.  Post your poem here to please so others can enjoy it.  Smile

Gravel

January 3. 2013 09:32 AM

DMW

From the Newspapers ...
  What the Front Pages are saying
via Front Pages Today -  http://goo.gl/enTjx

The Australian - http://goo.gl/3bnTO
In the line of fire, nation set for soaring 40s
Crisis over, world looks to recovery

The Sydney Morning Herald - http://goo.gl/1kOHj
Secret ingredient emerges from city’s best late diner - http://goo.gl/1HT9u
Rescue chopper cutbacks proposed

The Daily Telegraph - http://goo.gl/JXc7d
Tony Greig - Remembering a Legend
Chinese Take-Away (Foreign buy-up hits baby formula supply)

The Age - http://goo.gl/j6tKW
Explorers take on Antarctic in Shackleton’s tracks
City in grip of property slump

The Herald Sun - http://goo.gl/0wNCf
Fire Fight

The Courier Mail - http://goo.gl/7NTLf
JUST VOTE NONE - State considers dumping compulsory voting - http://goo.gl/NY9Qz

The Adelaide Advetiser - http://goo.gl/ApkdY
We’re finally flocking back to the city
Armed and Dangerous

The NT Times - http://goo.gl/7f7VB
Still NO CROCS Frown
Shock Housing Price Slump Hits Top End
Accused Wife Killer Was Banned Dringer
& almost a croc - Boat Ends Up In Pole Position

To the good citizens of Perth, Hobart and Canberra Front Pages Today doesn't deem us worthy of displaying our papers if anyone knows a better source I would be happy to oblige and provide them.

DMW

January 3. 2013 09:33 AM

DMW

Janet,
yep just like that Smile
... and if the hat fits wear it with pride

DMW

January 3. 2013 09:50 AM

DMW

I am horrified ...
  but not surprised

As Truth Seeker noted above and the Courier Mail front page told me the banana benders are at the dipstick end of the bend AGAIN.

Well not the good people of Queensland but the dipstick crazy politicians that they had the misfortune to elect.

For those who are not aware it was Queensland that was the first Australian jurisdiction to introduce compulsory voting (circa 1915).

The joke is, and one proof of my often contended theory when you introduce legislation for partisan political purposes it will come back to bite you in the bum that the Premier of the time did it because he thought Labor was better organised at getting out the vote and if voting was made compulsory he would gain an advantage. At the next election his government fell and he lost his seat.

Here is the Snails' story link again:
www.couriermail.com.au/.../story-e6freoof-1226546779272

DMW

January 3. 2013 10:26 AM

Tom of Melbourne

FAMILIES Minister Jenny Macklin's office is declining to hand over its press conference recording on which an incomplete transcript was based, omitting her claim she could survive on the dole.
After Ms Macklin stated she could live on the benefit - which is about $35 a day - her office issued a transcript to the media that left out the journalist's question and the relevant part of the minister's answer.


What a pathetic loser Macklin is. Deceitful spin about a government policy that specifically and deliberately reduced the income and living standards of tens of thousands of people.

The deviousness of this government is endemic, it starts at the top and pollutes the entire government.

Personally, I’m a little tired of people saying politics is all about policy. That’s crap.

Politics is all about building public confidence in public institutions, and on that yardstick, this government is a dismal failure.


Read more: www.theage.com.au/.../...rding-20130102-2c5mv.html


Tom of Melbourne

January 3. 2013 10:29 AM

LadyInRed

Ken thank you so much for your response, and being a lefty I do believe that government needs to help the vulnerable and those who fall into bad times whether it be because they lost their job or whatever befalls them, but I also believe that we do best when we also help ourselves, when we feel we have some self determination, the cycle of welfare dependence is very destructive and very easy for 'anyone' to fall into.

Jan I tried to convey the many other payments single parents and unemployed people may be entitled to in my twitter response, and thank you so much for that more detailed response. The government is about to send out $410 per primary child, and $820 for secondary students, what a welcome relief after christmas and knowing that you can actually clothe and kit up your children to send them to school with dignity.

And, of course as Jason pointed out there is the very real issue of child support from the other parent, an often forgotten part of the debate.

tiffany232 also rightly points out there are good and bad parents and it isn't gender specific.

So, we have Jenny Macklin to thank for this very interesting discussion. Adam Bandt will lose his seat (my prediction), this stunt he has pulled and which thankfully Jenny didn't rise to is just plain silly. Jan you are correct, Macklin should have qualified the full entitlement that single parents have available to them rather than simply fall into a yes or no answer. And, as Jason rightly pointed out, the issue really isn't the single parent payment but rather Newstart and what we as a society are willing to say is a fair amount of money to assist people in searching for a job, and what programs will be cut or where extra revenue wil come from.

Great debate thanks everyone.

LadyInRed

January 3. 2013 10:42 AM

bilko

AA.
Happy new year to you and all sword carriers as a lurker here since June 2009 I am well pleased that the TPS is going from strength to strength and what with the latest madness in QLD outlined nicely by Truth Seeker, we need more bloggers to point out the truth to the general public..

I spoke to my cousin in Brisbane late last year and she is very very sorry she voted for cando. I think she was seduced by not having access to alternative sources of information,her hubby only moved off dial up before she called me. "The Goebbels" effect I call it.

Sell off schools Kate Carnell did that here in Canberra many years ago.

Next QLD will be selling off Hospitals then the power generators, oops did they oppose Bligh when she proposed that but then O'barrell did that when in opposition in NSW and now he proposes the same ideas there.  All these Liberal Premiers should be in our Olympic swimming squad so many backflips with pikes & twist, they would do us proud.

bilko

January 3. 2013 10:44 AM

LadyInRed

ToM

What is that makes you always try to drag down the debate into the gutter? So far this debate on this site was at a very high standard. If it were up to me I would remove your comment simply because it is a blot, a stain, on an otherwise very intelligent debate.

LadyInRed

January 3. 2013 10:48 AM

bob macalba

To all at TPS, great comments, links and debate, i enjoy reading all, ..thankyou and cheers.

as to that other chap who posted at 10;26...BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,

bob macalba

January 3. 2013 11:01 AM

KHTAGH

If Qld moves to voluntary voting it will !! be rigged, that is the only reason to do it, to keep themselves in power, very scary if the idea sticks in the Lieberals mindset as it would be very attractive the the Whingeing Wing Nut.

KHTAGH

January 3. 2013 11:11 AM

Tom of Melbourne

Lady in Red – ” So far this debate on this site was at a very high standard.’

I must have missed that bit, but here are some actual FACTS-

•  The government has deliberately reduced the income and living standards of tens of thousands of people.
•  Macklin said she could live on the dole (and I do hope she has the opportunity soon)
•  This outrageous and stupid comment was deleted from her official record.
•  Her office now declines to release their recording of the question and answer.


Macklin is hopeless, stupid, insensitive, out of touch and deceitful.

Tom of Melbourne

January 3. 2013 11:17 AM

Ken

Lady in Red, Jason, and all involved in the discussion of the single Parent payment

Following from my previous comment on the different approach by left and right to such issues, the big question as others have pointed out is “tax”.

Australia has never quite decided whether it should follow the American individual approach or the European social approach and we have ended up with a mixed bag of both.

The “right” says that the individual should decide what they do with their money, rather than Government.  But some of the highest taxing countries in the world, the Scandinavian countries, provide many Government services and continually rank the highest as the best places in which to live.  How do the right explain that!!!!  They don’t – they just remind us that this is the sort of tax levels we would face if the Government provided services, without explaining that the services are very good.

Since Howard, Australia has tended to follow the model of providing support through cash payments to the individual, rather than spending on improving the services provided.  It follows the “right” model of allowing the individual to decide on what the money is spent.  An example of how far that can go was the idea that, rather than funding schools directly, parents would receive an education credit and decide which school to use, which would then attract that funding from Government.

As I said previously, I believe that people will accept higher taxes if they can see that there is a real benefit/improvement from the services provided.

Also 2353, re the article about the different approaches to death duties and education in the USA and Oz.  Historically, the Catholics in Oz kept their own schools primarily to ensure their was an educated Catholic elite to challenge the Protestant ascendancy – big business and politics was historically dominated by Protestants.  I recall Keating talking about this at some point.  I think there is a good argument for re-introducing death duties but, given the price of houses, it would probably need to be set at estates above about $2 million.  The major problem, however, is that the rich would still avoid it by putting most of their assets into “companies”!!!

Ken

January 3. 2013 11:21 AM

Truth Seeker

Hey Gravel, how could I refuse, your kind request.   Smile

King can do Campbell

He won the poll he beat the odds
And rode the wave of victory sweet
“I’m humbled”, he said, “by your trust in me”
Then he humbly scoffed at Blighs defeat

“We’ll be more transparent” was his pledge
As he sought to bypass the watchdogs role
Then employed Costello, his liberal mate
To fudge the books, to support his goal

To slash and burn the public sector
Sacking all that he could see
Cutting funding to hospitals
And support for disability

He said “I’m sorry if this causes pain
But cos of debt this needs to be.
Go whinge to those that lost their seats,
It’s all their fault…you can’t blame me.”

As Mayor of Brissy, his mates got rich
And his family business truly thrived
And though his stage is bigger now
His nepotism’s kept alive

The legacies from his Mayoral tenure
Expensive bikes and the great Clem seven
And now he’ll visit this upon us
In his own sad version of right wing heaven

So for those who wish to see our country
In the incompetent hands of the rabid right
Then look to Baillieu, O’Farrell and Newman
And ponder on our country’s plight.

For all these “leaders?”, lies and backflips
Are their proven stock in trade
Supported by self serving interests
With billions they’ve already made

So open eyes and ears and minds
To what is really being said
Ignore the slogans and the spin
Or by the nose you will be led

To hand the keys of this great nation
To the Abbott’s vacuous team
To rape and pillage our economy
And realise a nightmare… from the dream.

Cheers   Smile   Smile

Truth Seeker

January 3. 2013 11:35 AM

DMW

I am more in favour of compulsory voting than I am against it although I find some arguments in favour of voluntary voting reasonable to a point.

The thing that amuses me is that often many of the proponents of voluntary voting say people should be free to choose for themselves whether to vote and some say in fact have a 'right' not to vote are often the same people who say women should not be able to choose to terminate a pregnancy and that gay people cannot choose to marry.

It is a weird and wonderful world of conundrums, hypocrisies and stupidities this game of politics we choose to engage in. Thank the deities it isn't compulsory for everyone to comment regularly on the game Tong

DMW

January 3. 2013 11:35 AM

TalkTurkey

Open Invitation to Professor Peter van Onselen

Dear Peter,

First let me say that in one way we are even, and it might surprise you: I have never seen your show, (I'm not on Sky) so I wouldn't even know if your Gravatar's your own image or that of a movie star.
(It looks far too handsome to be a Professor. Smile )

And actually that's the way I'm content to keep it. The images here on The Political Sword are cast in words alone, we do not even have a facility for displaying visuals, so everybody on this site is either stunningly beautiful or dashingly handsome, and the average IQ here is, amusingly, exactly 140 - the same as the number of characters you are permitted on Twitter.

Because it all comes down to words. Not weasel-words, (words emptied of meaning as a weasel sucks an egg), but sincere words, expressing clever humane new thoughts, thoughts thought through, not thoughts thought expedient, thoughts thought hurriedly, thoughts trying to compress complex issues into fifteen second grabs - if one is even being permitted to finish a thought, free of interruption by moderator or denialist other guests. That's the way it is on TV, not here.

Twitter is a great place for fifteen second grabs too. But tweets go straight to air in five seconds, so where do I go for news and views? - (Not visual views, I've just explained that, but views inside clever minds, via Words, ideas and info winging its way at cosmic speed through the Internet.) I don't go to Sky for news; not 7 9 or Ten; not ABC any more, not even the radio. I go to Twitter and I'm informed! And I can flash off to linked articles and pix ... Kinda leaves a lot of aspects of OM in the past don't it!
Not all, but we're working on it.  

But I notice you speak rather disparagingly of Twitter Peter, seemingly as a place a bit infra your dig, which you condescend to visit sometimes, out of an apparent sense of noblesse oblige, and when you get Rileyed, to threaten with your permanent regretful withdrawal, with the attitude of a parent who has despaired one too many times for an errant stupid child. Well I never said everyone on Twitter was a genius,(that's only here on TPS), but I would be pretty confident that our average Tweep was a good bit ahead of your average viewer in terms of education and political awareness, nevertheless.

Professor van Onselen I have never watched you on TV, but I have read some of your tweets over time. Not a very great many, because truth to tell, I must agree with your own self-assessment that, wtte, you jump all around in your opinions.

I acknowledge that this highly flexible approach has its points, in that you can never really be badly wrong, and it allows great latitude in criticising others after any given event, because you can somersault from heads to tails without an eyeblink. I would argue that a Government cannot be run like that, and I would like to hear you defend your stand to Swordsfolks, in considered terms, in a situation where your evident erudition can come to the fore, and where we may cross-examine you for once, instead of the reverse.

Not one short grab neither, but proper argument over time. Not like Abbortt pressers, as in, when the questions start to get close to the quick, he's quicker still, poof, gone.

In common with most of the 5th Estate commentators I claim that, with disappearingly rare exceptions, your profession has failed in its duty to nail the Opposition on its vacuity, nastiness and misinformation. So far I see no humility among the grubby recycled~Blu-tacky~lump of journalists, nor intention to change their ways. They are almost to the last individual in denial about their duplicity in dealing with issues, and their complicity with the political Right.

Sorry to say this Peter, but it is true, you yourself have seemed to me to be an apologist for that tacky mob. And not a disinterested party. Which would make you one of them.  

That's why for now I shall decline your invitation to appear on your show, Peter, but instead, I have pleasure, and the approval of several other Swordsfolks, to reverse the invitation to you, to come here to The Political Sword to argue cases. You will not be disrespected,(I know these people, they give credit for courage), though I am sure that some of your attitudes will be challenged.

It is very germane to Ad astra's site, with its stated and time-honoured focus on holding Media and Politicians to account, that you should be invited here; you could earn a lot of Lefty respect if you are prepared to argue cogently for political positions which may be different from our own. Sincerity and goodwill, and hopefully nous, are all you need to bring here.

I would hope that you have read -(read!)- the several posts -some mine, some from others - on this subject in this thread as per details on Twitter yesterday. You might be less dismissive of the quality of commentary on the 5th Estate.

There is a fascinating dynamic developing between the 4th and 5th Estates : we would love to get our once-considerable respect for Journalism back, but for now I know of no-one in the MSM who holds a candle to some on the Fifth Estate, either for investigative acumen nor articulation. Truth.

And there's Margo Kingston, and all that she means.


Sincerely

"TalkTurkey"

PS I could nominate another person who might be prepared to appear on your show in my place, but I look forward first to a reply in this space soon.



    

      

TalkTurkey

January 3. 2013 11:38 AM

DMW

bilko @ 10:42 AM
Sell off schools Kate Carnell did that here in Canberra many years ago.

Did Carnell actually sell schools or just close quite a few?

Off the top of your head if she actually sold schools do you know which ones?

DMW

January 3. 2013 11:45 AM

LadyInRed

Ken - you are most interesting.

Yes I can see how the Libs have tried to weave their philosphy of the individual with cash payments rather than simply taxing people more and for instance providing free high quality child care (for example). Myself I agree with the free high quality childcare because I believe ulitmately society benefits when everyone is treated equally, quality education or childcare should not only be for the rich (so not nannies for the rich) and not pay one mother $75,000 to have a baby and stay at home and another only $15,000 to stay at home.

I can see how a government would find this type of childcare very difficult to implement, and in this current climate with the tug-of-war for hearts and minds by the right using any means (Murdoch) available near impossible. I am encouraged however that Julia has managed to put a credible argument via Gonski to the public about education unfairness due to economic circumstances. Ultimately we have created a rod for our own backs by underfunding and incorrectly funding education for decades. Targeted funding is a much better way of ensuring no child gets left behind. Under educating our population feeds into the welfare problem.

LadyInRed

January 3. 2013 11:52 AM

Ad astra reply

bilko
Thank you for your kind remarks. Newman is a foretaste of things to come at a Federal level – a horrifying spectre.

LadyinRed, bob macalba
ToM is the epitome of the nastiness and the negativity we can expect from the Coalition all this year.  The biological response to noxious stimuli is to develop resistance and eventually immunity.  That is the only purpose in allowing ToM’s posts to remain.  Let’s immunize ourselves against the venom he emits almost every time he posts, so we will be able to withstand the torrents of venom we can expect from the Coalition and News Limited.  

Having immunised ourselves, we can ignore his nastiness with impunity.

Truth Seeker
Your verse is very good.  Thank you for another telling example.

Ad astra reply

January 3. 2013 11:53 AM

LadyInRed

ToM - I'm back to ignoring you. Your comment was of no value what-so-ever. It added nothing....zilch. If you want to engage with people you have to stop insulting peoples intelligence. I do believe I have mentioned that to you before. Engage with something other than spin, nastiness and negativity and you might enjoy some honest and valuable discussion that enhances your life. I say might because you nearly always offend even when you are trying to be nice.

LadyInRed

January 3. 2013 12:00 PM

Truth Seeker

Ad, thanks for you kind comments and support.   Smile

Cheers   Smile   Smile

Truth Seeker

January 3. 2013 12:02 PM

bob macalba

TT
Nice one.... hope he takes up your offer, not holding my breath though, i still believe he is scared...'fears a terrible thing'
yep, i think he be out of his depth and frightened,

bob macalba

January 3. 2013 12:09 PM

Ad astra reply

Talk Turkey
What a stylishly written invitation it is that you have penned to Peter van Onselen to join the debate here on The Political Sword.  I hope he accepts, as a rational debate between those in the Fourth Estate and those in the Fifth, built on facts and reason, would be welcome.

Ad astra reply

January 3. 2013 12:12 PM

Pikiranku

Regarding Cando's latest brainstorm, maybe we here in Australia should be talking a little bit less about our right to vote and a little bit more about our obligation to vote.

I firmly believe that along with our democratic rights we also have democratic responsibilities.  Democracy is only as good as its participants and if we truly value our democracy we should take seriously our individual roles within it.  That includes taking the time to inform ourselves as best we can so that we can make informed choices and then expressing those choices in the ballot box.

But the question of our responsibilites seldom features in any discussion we have about our democratic system.  

Pikiranku

January 3. 2013 12:15 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Lady in Red, I don’t comment here for the purpose of extending my on line social network, and I really don’t care whether or not people reply to my comments.

Ad Astra’s diatribe at 11.52 is an indicator of the tone that he encourages in participants here in dealing with alternative points of view. He hates rational views that are inconvenient to the government, and his own narrow political perspective.

However, the fact is that Macklin made a stupid and insensitive comment and then tried to conceal it – that’s a legitimate discussion point about a government that has a reputation for this type of dishonesty.

Another fact is that the government has specifically introduced a policy with the intention of reducing the living standards of about 80,000 people. No matter how others might want to polish this t*rd, that’s the fact, and it is entirely legitimate to point this out on a political blog.

Tom of Melbourne

January 3. 2013 12:23 PM

Wake Up

Ok, new game for 2013..........

First one to use a combination of the letters T, o, M in that order loses.

Wake Up

January 3. 2013 12:23 PM

MWS

If voting is not compulsory, then there is less onus on the electoral commission to provide opportunities for people to vote - that is, voting will be more difficult for many.  We see this in the USA - voting is on a workday, and some unscrupulous politicians try to influence the vote by having fewer polling stations and less staff to process votes in areas perceived to be populated with their political opponents' supporters.  The long lines seen at the last election showed this.

When voting is compulsory, then the AEC MUST provide suitable facilities to enable everybody to vote.  That includes remote communities, embassies overseas, military deployments, and facilities for the disabled to vote.  Can all this be guaranteed if voting is voluntary?

MWS

January 3. 2013 12:30 PM

bilko

DMW@1042
Watson High and Downer Primary both within walking distance of my humble abode come to mind the buildings are still there but some of the occupants are small business's, trade training organisations etc. You could be correct in that they are closed to school children and not sold off as such I stand to be corrected if that is the case.
AA
question where is Hillbilly Skeleton from memory his/her wit sadly missed. Have I missed something again?

bilko

January 3. 2013 12:32 PM

Wake Up

Excellent post here on the "Macklin Scandal"..........

http://tinyurl.com/ap5mtk4

Wake Up

January 3. 2013 12:36 PM

DMW

Ken,
the whole tax and transfer debate could do with a bit of light shining on it but like so many things isn't suited to the ten second TV/Radio 'grab' or a 140 character tweet.

Some wayward thoughts:

One aspect of the cash handout type 'entitlements' is often the same people who whine about losing 'my entitlement' will also whine about their taxes being too high.

If those people thought about for longer than it takes to tweet they would realise that for every dollar of 'entitlement' they, or someone else has to pay, say, $1.25 in taxes.

A way of looking at taxes that would bend minds too far is when we pay tax we are 'buying shares' in the great enterprise that is Australia and the 'dividends' we get are in the form of roads, hospitals, schools and cash handouts in the form of pensions or the dole.

If people looked at taxes as a pooling of resources in much the same way that share buyers pool resources to build a company they could not build on their own would people have a different attitude towards taxation?

I shall ponder and possibly pontificate further.

DMW

January 3. 2013 12:43 PM

LadyInRed

ToM - alternatives, alternatives, alternatives? Don't whinge come up with alternatives?

What's your payoff then ToM if you don't want to engage? Stick in a barb and see what reaction you get? That's not rational. I believe we discussed the insensitivity of Macklin, but you can only say that once and then what? Keep on and on and on about it? No, we moved on, discussing the present, and possible alternatives, listening to others points of view, tweaking our own and generally being interested in each others points of view (well that's how I felt). Then you came along and tried to spoil it. I'm a psychologist ToM, so that's why I keep falling in to trying to work out what makes you tick, what's in it for you?

LadyInRed

January 3. 2013 12:52 PM

2353

Truth Seeker - nice verse and (as a resident of Brisvegas) I particularly like the local references.

Ken - the US versus Oz article was posted for two reasons.
  
The first being because it is a valid comment on the differing "norms" between the two countries.  Publicly funded "private" schools and no death duties do not "equalise" opportunity or wealth in a country that prides itself on its equality (Jack's as good as his master) and is probably as incomprehensible to US citizens as the US "right to bear arms" is to Australians.

The Second reason for posting it is that it is an interesting discussion point why is the take up of private schools so high here versus other places in the world?  Is it that the Public Systems are really that bad or as there is almost a universal right to University education, "private school education" is how an Australian family "shows off" their wealth?  While I take your point about companies and trusts, I'm sure a clever legislation drafter could get the death duty from behind the company when it was warranted - should the political will be there (which it isn't).

2353

January 3. 2013 12:53 PM

Truth Seeker

Pikiranku, good point, I think it should certainly be a part of the discussion.

If you look at countries that have recently got the opportunity to vote, they recognise the value in it, and don't need to be forced as they see voting as a hard won right, and a responsibility.

We collectively are very apathetic about voting (like one here), but then want to whinge when governments do something that we don't like.

I personally believe in compulsory voting, because of the level of apathy, especially in the areas of lower socio economic groups and concentrations.

Cheers   Smile  

Truth Seeker

January 3. 2013 01:06 PM

LadyInRed

Pikiranku

I read the discussion paper, though I have to admit to not reading the funding part %100. Firstly, it is a discussion paper. It asks the question about campaign funding, election funding and donations etc. On voting it also asks the following, and notes the pros and cons for consideration:

Should we provide proof of identity when we present to vote?

Should voter be allowed to enrol to vote on polling day?

Should we allow electronic voting? and it talks about disabled etc. and 20 kms from nearest voting station.

Changes to postal voting.

And, should compulsory voting be changed in Queensland.

Personally I believe you should turn up to vote, and it is your right to vote informal if you have no idea and it irritates you so much that you have to engage in the politics that will ultimately have an effect on you and your children.

I hope this link works.

http://ht.ly/guMfw

LadyInRed

January 3. 2013 01:33 PM

DMW

bilko @ 12:30 PM
thanks bilko

Both Watson and Downer schools were closed in 1988 by a federal Labor govenment before the first ACT goverment was elected in 1989. Carnell started as Cheif Minister in 1995 (until 2000)

Both sites are now a almost a long hike since my humble abode moved from Lower Downer (opposite the school) to the other side of the creek, err umm, Northbourne Av which is, currently as I write, infested with strange people in even stranger vehicles.

Both sites are still 'owned' by the government on behalf of the good citizens of Canberra and yes, used in Downers' case a business incubator albeit it seems not very well supported or funded and Watson is used as a Technology Incubator.

DMW

January 3. 2013 02:07 PM

Ad astra reply

LadyinRed
ToM has no idea how to present an argument in a balanced way, free of venom.  He seems unable to learn how to do otherwise.  When his nastiness is called for what it is, he calls it a ‘tirade’, oblivious of the reality that almost everything he writes fits that description.  

Shall we ignore him?   Responding serves only to encourage more of the same.

Ad astra reply

January 3. 2013 02:34 PM

Wake Up

LiR,

Regarding our miserable little troll, don't think too much as to what makes him tick.

As I've said before, like many trolls these days, he is most likely being paid to disrupt and divide this fine blog. The more successful he is the more he will earn and by responding to his painfully obvious and deliberate antics you are only encouraging him to continue and therefore enhancing his income.

Like all pests, trolls only hang around where they are fed.

Wake Up

January 3. 2013 02:51 PM

bob macalba

Im in,.. its always the same poop he dribbles anyway..no food for the brain there, so ignore you know who i shall

bob macalba

January 3. 2013 03:06 PM

Jason

ToM,
   I assume most of the 80,000 you now are outraged about have a non custodial parent in the work force! So what the government needs to do is find out why they aren't paying the required amounts of child support and put in measures to close the loop holes that allow people to aviod it.

These aren't my children! I paid my $400 a week and more for 18 years for a son I've seen 4 times in 23 years!Newstart is there as a saftey net not a hammock! as you seem to think, and if some find it hard they can start using contraception or start going after the deadbeat parent that for whatever reason doesn't want to pay.

Centerlink is quite happy to tell my 18 year old daughter she's not entitled to Austudy for her TAFE course this year because her mother and I earn to much! perhaps I should fill her head with your stupidity and tell her to move in with her boyfriend so she can get Austudy and all trimmings that go with it!



Jason

January 3. 2013 03:23 PM

LadyInRed

To everyone, I know that I should ignore him. Mostly I do. But I just wonder at people who get a kick out of spoiling....but if its money (something I hadn't thought of....naive?) that explains the moronic monologue. Thanks to everyone.

Yo Jason you have fine ethics!

LadyInRed

January 3. 2013 03:37 PM

Ken

Bear with me because I have a number of responses to some interesting posts.  I’ll probably do this in reverse order as I work my way back up the posts.

Lady in Red and others on Compulsory voting:  On a previous thread I posted this quote when compulsory voting was introduced in 1924.

On only four occasions [since Federation] had any individual [in the Senate] been returned by more than 50% of the voters on the roll.  In the last election, out of 2,982,424 electors, 1,254,178 did not vote.  In the House of Representatives, members had on average been elected by just 48% of their electorate.  Compusory voting is seen as necessary to ensure a legitimate democracy.  If the principle of democracy is to be applied then those who govern should at least represent a majority of those they govern.

I think that principle still stands - unlike America and the UK where someone may be elected even though only 45% of the electorate voted – who would the other 55% have voted for?  I recall that many years ago they tried non-compusory voting in NSW local government elections but after the turn-out fell as low as 25%, they gave it up.

Unfortunately (!!) Australia is a lucky country and there is always something else one can be doing rather than wandering down to a polling station.  I also think that Newman is looking at this as a way of increasing the conservative vote (at least as a proportion of those who vote) as it is highly likely that a significant proportion of those who wouldn’t bother to vote would be young people.

2523 Death duties and education, USA v Oz  I also found it a very interesting article.  The historical circumstances that give rise to these differences between nations is fascinating in itself.  And the situation in Australia has been influenced in recent years by the issues I raised in my other posts about the difference in approach between left and right.  Another issue is that in a changing world, we often ask the school to do too much and take on socialisation processes that previously would have been the preserve of the family – morals and values.  Many people who have moved to private schools have done so because they select a school that reflects the “values” they want – the rise of many religious schools (no longer, just Catholic).  I could do a whole article about this but will leave it at that, acknowledging that what I’ve said is only part of the answer.

DMW and taxes    Agree with your comments.  There have been many surveys undertaken which show that the majority of Australians want lower taxes and more Government services (and hand-outs), and don’t see the disconnect between these views!!  

Yes, selling tax as an investment in the country may be a way to go.  When we did have the Henry tax review the Government didn’t like the political implications – it is next to impossible to sell tax increases.  It would almost be better not to have “tax” per se, but a series of “levies” for education, defence, health, infrastructure, etc.  At least that way, people may perceive the purpose, rather than believing the Government just gets this huge pool of money “for nothing”.

Lady in Red  thank you for your kind comment.  Agree that things like childcare should be free and that there should be more emphasis on “public” services, instead of the move to rely on the “markets” and privatisation.  My bugbear is that utilities (water, gas, electricity, etc) have been privatised which leads to some strange situations.  In Canberra, when ACTEW last had a price rise for water it was partly justified on the basis of meeting the cost of a new dam but hidden away in the figures was also an increase to cover “losses” during the drought, when we had water restrictions.  ACTEW is part Government-owned but operates like a private company.  Why should we be asked to cover the “losses” when we did the right thing in a drought and reduced our water consumption!!  Surely that is a “cost” for the public good, which public utilities would recognise but which means little to a private company.  And the main reason State governments are selling off their electricity assets is that they never funded them properly – they didn’t put aside funds for future infrastructure maintenance and upgrading, so that when that they came back to bite them, their only option was to off-load them.  Like education, I could go on and on but had better put an end to this too long missive.

Ken

January 3. 2013 03:58 PM

Jason

Ken,
    Our water utility here in SA is like yours government owned but privately managed, However we got a little good news the other day for once!



One-off rebates on South Australian water bills have come into effect today after the State Government increased water prices last year to pay for the desalination plant.

Households using more than 120,000 litres will have $75 deducted from their next bill while consumers using less than 120,000 litres will be entitled to a $45 reduction.

The rebate was announced before last year's state budget to offset part of the cost of a 25 per cent water price rise in July.

Attorney General John Rau says the Government will spend $45.7 million on the rebates to about 600,000 customers.

Mr Rau says sudden price hikes like the one in July will no longer occur.

"Water rate increases, if any, will be occurring perhaps on CPI basis or whatever it is over the years to come, but there won't be these big jumps that there have been," he said.

"This rebate is intended to recognise and help people deal with the fact that there have been jumps in overall water costs."

The rebate will be based on last year's water consumption figures and will be deducted from the first household water bill of 2013


www.abc.net.au/.../4450240?section=sa

Jason

January 3. 2013 04:01 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Here’s the challenge – read my comments at 10:26 and  11:11 AM, and ascertain whether they are so very confronting, argumentative and unreasonable, that they deserve this response from Ad Astra –

“ToM is the epitome of the nastiness and the negativity we can expect from the Coalition all this year. The biological response to noxious stimuli is to develop resistance and eventually immunity. That is the only purpose in allowing ToM’s posts to remain. Let’s immunize ourselves against the venom he emits almost every time he posts, so we will be able to withstand the torrents of venom we can expect from the Coalition and News Limited.”


As I’ve said, visiting this place is like sitting with the Collingwood Cheer Club, and observing that umpires aren’t on the take.

Typically Ad Astra launches an over the top response to some reasonable observations about Macklin and the ALP.
----------------------
Jason, I haven’t specifically formed a view about the government’s policy to deliberately reduce the standard of living of 80,000 people.

I’m simply observing that this is their desired outcome and when confronted with this, macklin chose to be stupid and insensitive.

Then she and her office chose to be dishonest about the record of the interview.

Tom of Melbourne

January 3. 2013 04:17 PM

Jason

ToM,
   And Macklin deserved to be attacked over it! I thought you would've known the more child support a person receives the less the state pays in welfare, so the only ones forcing anyone to live on $35 a day is the non custodial parent who avoids it, unless they themselves are unemployed so they don't have a capacity to pay.

BTW were you as outraged in 2006 when Howard set it up?

Jason

January 3. 2013 04:32 PM

Pikiranku

Ken

Doesn't this issue of THE privatisation of public utilities come back to the question of private v. public debt?  If infrastructure has been neglected and requires vast spending, then someone has to borrow the money to do it - whether it's the government or a private owner should be immaterial.  In fact, it's better if a government borrows the money because they can borrow at much better rates than private companies.  But the issue is so imbued with the prevailing notion that private debt is okay and public debt is some sort of national disaster that governments feel compelled to offload these utilities (after having milked them dry for as long as absolutely possible).

And to those of you who respond to ToM, I wish you would all scroll past and ignore him to death.  I do that, but then I read the posts of people whose intelligence I respect only to find that they're replying to some rubbish of his - so he still succeeds in intruding upon my consciousness!

Pikiranku

January 3. 2013 04:38 PM

bob macalba

Freedom and Liberty?...watch out you tweeters the censors are coming.... not really but they want to, at least in France they do

www.guardian.co.uk/.../free-speech-twitter-france

bob macalba

January 3. 2013 04:48 PM

bob macalba

Then there's  this, where censorship is back to front
www.nytimes.com/.../...-cheap-guns-click-here.html

bob macalba

January 3. 2013 05:12 PM

xiaoecho

As if Macklins comment wasn't bad enough this goose (Brandt) gets on the bandwagon claiming he is going to make the sacrifice of living on $35 a day for A WEEK!!!!

OMG, what a hero, pass the smelling salts

Talk about a kick in the teeth to those living with the stigma, prejudice and judgement of society on the dole every day, week in week out. This peanut sees their degredation as a political oportunity

www.smh.com.au/.../...lin-told-20130102-2c5nl.html

Pass the sick bucket

xiaoecho

January 3. 2013 05:24 PM

Gravel

Talk Turkey

That was a great invite.  What interesting discussions could be had if we had some intelligent conservative to debate with.  By his tweets, I gathered he is playing dumb and pretends he can't find TPS or your comment/invite, so I gather he won't accept.

Truth Seeker

See, I told you others would enjoy your pome/poem/ verse.  Smile

Given the heat today here in Vic and for the next couple of days, I am amazed at the great comments today on the variety of subjects.  It has been great reading here today.  Might I add that is always great reading here.

Bilko

Welcome back.  There are a lot of new faces here since you last came, I know you will enjoy there input, it is a great place to be.  Hillbilly is having a break from here for while, but she is on twitter and   a couple of other places.

Gravel

January 3. 2013 06:19 PM

Ken

Pikiranku

Yes, debt is one part of the whole issue but like some of my other comments, that would lead to an entire dissertation of its own.

I read an article years ago by an economist (but not a mainstream economist) who presented an argument along the lines that debt, and even printing money, are not problems for national governments.  I will have to see whether I can find the article again to get the details of the argument.

Ken

January 3. 2013 06:31 PM

uriah

.

uriah

January 3. 2013 07:21 PM

Bacchus

Perhaps what you read came from this fellow Ken:

hir.harvard.edu/debt-deficits-and-modern-monetary-theory

In a fiat currency system, the currency has legitimacy because of legislative fiat: the government tells us that’s the currency and then legislates it as such. The currency has no intrinsic value. What gives it value, what motivates us to use the currency that the government suggests, is the fact that all tax obligations are denominated in and have to be extinguished with that currency. We have no choice. If you live in America, for example, you have to pay American taxes to the IRS with American dollars. So demand for the currency, otherwise worthless bits of paper, is driven by the fact that all tax obligations have to be extinguished with that currency. Once you consider that, then you immediately realize that the national government is the monopoly issuer of that currency. That means that the national government in such a system can never be short of that currency; it can never run out of money. It doesn’t need you or I to lend it money or you and I to pay taxes to get more money. It can never run out of money. That’s the first basic insight of MMT: governments are not constrained in their spending by a need to raise revenue.

If so, there's much much more at http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/

Bacchus

January 3. 2013 07:28 PM

Shirley

A link to this clever critique of Mr Abbotts's press conference in London re Ashby scandal. Another good reason to push for an inquiry now.

A closer look at an Abbott press interview.
With thanks to the ABC and Allan Pease

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlbibEjD0-Q

Shirley

January 3. 2013 07:51 PM

Gravel

Bilko

Hillbilly says hello........you can catch up with her at
http://pbxmastragics.com  which is  a temporary site until 7th January.

Sorry Ad Astra, don't mean to be a message service, just trying to help old pals get together.

Gravel

January 3. 2013 09:36 PM

Psyclaw

LiR

Of course the troll gets a kick out of stirring the possum here. That's the very reason he comes here, and the reason he comes so often and regularly. It's sad that he has to rely so heavily on TPS for his stimulation in life.

Political discourse, logical argument, seeking other views and broadening his outlook on life ...... the things that attract normal commenters who have an otherwise satisfactory and satisfying life, couldn't be further from his mind. This is not just mischievous shit stirring ....... the nature and frequency and predictability of his posts show up the pathological needs which compel him to be one of TPS's most ardant fans.

BTW I am pretty pissed off by inaccurate and misleading statements from the aforesaid sad sack and others that Ms Macklin "commented" or "claimed" that she could live on Newstart. They are parroting the tabloid version.

In fact Macklin got sucked in by a gotcha question ..... she resisted the question once, but when the "journo" repeated the question with pressure, Macklin faux pas-d big time.

By all means criticise her lack lustre media skills ....... that is certainly not any great revelation. But she made no a-priori claim...... she just let her guard down and got sucked in to a headline.

I'm sure that she now wishes she'd been as assesrivebas  Tanya Plibisek was today when the same con was tried on her.

Psyclaw

January 3. 2013 09:47 PM

2353

Living on Newstart for a week would prove nothing.  It is extend periods on minimal income that is the problem such as when the rent, electricity, water are all due almost at the same time - and then the car breaks down (remembering older cars - which is all you could afford -  break down more often)

2353

January 3. 2013 10:06 PM

42 long

gotch questions by impertinent Know "F888k all about the real world" immature journo's. Note how their "superiority" complex works. I find this section the most revolting of the whole journalistic tribe. That's saying something, when you have serious contenders like Lewis.
    The abc ( lower letters) have their share of this lot. UTS from the outset. No respect for anything worthwhile, in thought or deed..
   We should run a list of Journo's WE respect. I'm sure it would be the "kiss of death" for them getting 9 or keeeping) a job with the Murdochracy, but it's on the skids as well as being on the nose, so why not go out with a reputation for integrity and be available for the "new" media of the future,  not the one we have now where "limited news" is used to CON you, and distort truth.

42 long

January 3. 2013 10:07 PM

Truth Seeker

2353, Thanks for your comment, and as a resident of the Sunshine Coast myself, in the electorate of Fisher, I certainly have an interest in State and Federal politics.

Can do is definitely on the nose around here, and that is saying something in an electorate that would vote for Vlad the impaler if he was endorsed by the LNP, although many only believe what they are told by the lying bastards, and still try to excuse his austerity measures as needed to fix up the "mess".

Gravel, thanks again.   Smile

Cheers   Smile   Smile

Truth Seeker

January 4. 2013 01:21 AM

jane

Have been out of the political loop since before Xmas. Hope everyone had a fine Xmas and enjoyed the opening line of 2013.

I'd also like to add my thanks to Ad Astra, Lyn and all the regulars who give TPS life and make it the grand site it is.

Reading the spiteful, hateful, churlish, bile-ridden tweet from that vile fatuous fathead Sloppy Joe, the Ignoramus from Liarsland reinforced my opinion of the Liars Party and all its foul adherents and why I can confidently say I never have, nor would I EVER vote for such scum.

To make such a comment about ANYONE visiting a bereaved parent at any time, let alone Xmas, when families traditionally come together, underlines what a truly nasty piece of work he is.

I bet he, the glutton and hypocrite, was at home elbowing the children out of the way so he could pig into vast quantities of ham, turkey and pork (the bloody cannibal) before anyone else could take a mouthful!

And he calls himself a Christian!

As a non-consumer of the msm, I've been following the debate here wrt Macklin with interest. Haven't been able to read the links on account of my crap internet, but hopefully it will improve and I'll be able to catch up with what's been happening.  

WRT Bandt's undertaking to live on Newstart for a week, didn't another Green (SHY, I think) do the same for a month? However, as she lived in her own house while doing so, it seemed a bit pointless, imo.

Then there's the (in)famous Liars MP, whose name escapes me, who bragged he'd be able to live it up on the dole, while sharing a house. He lasted less than a week.

2353, @9.47pm, these are the things most people tend not to take into account when discussing the dole and benefits like rent assistance etc.

It's not just repairing a car which breaks down, but replacing tyres, putting fuel in the tank and registering and insuring it.

There is the argumant that dole recipients can use public transport, but that's a luxury not available to people living in small country towns and even where public transport is available, it may not be close by.

Then there's things like appliances breaking down and not being able to repair or replace them, being unable to afford dental care, maintaining grooming required to create a favourable impression at interviews.

Going to a job interview looking down-at-heel doesn't create a favourable impression with potential employers.

I am dead set against the 6 week waiting period and the fact that people have to spend all their savings before being considered for the dole.

They should be able to retain savings up to $10,000 as a buffer against unexpected expenses and things like car repairs etc.

jane

January 4. 2013 08:06 AM

Michael

Remember "hyperbole"?

You'll have noticed that in one of Joe "Go to Hell" Hockey's tweets about the Prime Minister's holidays and her capacity for 'leadership', that he also managed (unfortunately for a putative Treasurer), to arbitrarily inflate his earlier claim that the Labor government had promised a budget surplus '200' times straight up to '400' times.

Ever wondered why he's called "Sloppy Joe"?

And the name has 'stuck' for so long?

[Sloppy Joe's tweet of December 29: "I see PM has broken her holidays to go to a folk festival. Shame the PM didn't front up to apologise for breaking 400 promises for a surplus"]

Michael

January 4. 2013 08:29 AM

2353

Truth Seeker - your views on the electors of Fisher seem to be correct as they kept on re-electing Slipper as an LNP candidate (no offence Laughing )

Jane - you're correct on the effects of the Newstart allowance.  The reporter that asked the question has no clue, Macklin and Brant need a serious reality check.

2353

January 4. 2013 09:02 AM

Ken

Bacchus 7.21pm yesterday

Thanks for the link.  I'm not sure that the article is the one I was trying to remember but it is certainly along the same lines.  The one I was trying to find was, I think, from the Society of Heterodox Economists at the UNSW.

And a comment on the Macklin issue:  Her office has made the matter worse with the "story" that the relevant part of the interview was inaudible in the recording they had - hardly believable!!!  But it goes to the role of the political advisers/minders that Ministers fill their offices with these days (I have commented on them before).  They see their primary role as "protecting" the Minister and will do all sorts of things to do that.  I think Macklin should be kicking a few heads and/or sacking a few advisers if this is the way they think they can "protect" her.  Certainly not the standard of "advice" one would expect from a political minder.

Ken

January 4. 2013 09:35 AM

DMW

What the Newspaper Front Pages are saying:

Just a quickie on the most important Front Page of all as I have to go off around the traps for a short while.

The NT Times - http://goo.gl/7f7VB
Still NO CROCS Frown

I will attempt to inform you further later in the day

DMW

January 4. 2013 09:54 AM

janice

I doubt that too many people genuinely believe that, in falling for a journo's "gotcha" wrt the newstart allowance and single parents, Jenny Macklin is so hard hearted (stupid even)as to think living on the dole is to live on comfort street.  

Australians have it so good that it is now par for the course to whine about payments that are handed out as assistance for the needy and vulnerable.  It really is time that each and every one of us took a deep breath and took an exercise in being fair and rational.  The public purse is not bottomless.

Newstart should not be considered a pension which goes on ad infinitum.  It has always been a temporary assistance package to ASSIST people to survive whilst looking for a job.   Over the years some people have abused this help given by our governments and used it as a means to stay out of the workforce, (hence the term "dolebludger")forcing governments to tighten access to it, and to put in place hard rules and (sometimes) demeaning hoops to jump through to stay on it.

Rather than yell and stamp the feet in a tanty calling for more, more, more, people should really be giving thanks that we live in a country with governments that provide assistance for us when we fall on hard times, are disabled, mentally ill, or have become too old/infirm to work.



  

janice

January 4. 2013 10:00 AM

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)


DMW: Kicking off with our favourite frontpage. Lovely Smile

Some reading links from me, mainly from bloggers in the last couple of days. The first proposes a venture that may become very important to independent bloggers.

The Australian Independent Media Network
The idea of a representative body for Australian bloggers has been tossed around for a couple of years but it had never really taken hold. Tim Dunlop’s article in The Drum last October titled Media pass: citizen journalists need an industry body emphasised the need for something to be done. The introduction to the article reads:

Australian bloggers have a lot to offer in public debate, but an independent body is needed to establish the credibility and increase the exposure of our citizen journalists.

We are now at that point.

Over the coming days and weeks you’ll see this site take shape and the network develop, followed by what we endeavour to be quality, unbiased, balanced, independent journalism. Goodness knows this country needs some.

Build it and they will come.
theaimn.com/.../

The people versus Murdoch  Miglo
In a few short years, blogging has become a global phenomenon.  It has not only has reshaped our view of journalism, but has unlocked previously unrealised publishing opportunities.  Blogging itself, in my opinion, is journalism. The readership is limited, hence blogging sites with similar agendas often link their sites together to broaden the impact of their commentary.  The blog sites of the MSM usually filter out contributions from bloggers whose opinion do not fit into their schema, so while independent blog sites provide minimal impact, the avenues through the MSM can provide none.
theaimn.com/2013/01/03/the-people-versus-murdoch/

Rupert Murdoch faces his greatest challenge  Rodney E. Lever
Like Samson and the temple he destroyed, Murdoch is about to rip his life’s work apart and try to restore his ruined reputation. Biblical scholars will recall that Samson lost his hair, the source of all his strength. Rupert, too, has lost his hair and in March this year he will be 82 years old.

Recent legal filings with US Securities and Exchange Commission show how he intends to split his massive international company into two separate parts by establishing a framework  whereby one company will publish newspapers and the other (or others) will have to provide the money necessary to keep both companies afloat.
www.independentaustralia.net/.../

Keep voting compulsory  Miglo
Compulsory voting – or the removal of it – has been in the news a bit lately. I’m not surprised. Nick Minchin had his fingers all over the issue a couple of months ago so it was only going to be a matter of time before something else surfaced. If Nick Minchin is against compulsory voting I can only assume that he does so because voluntary voting would be in the best interests of the Coalition. His recent foray into the issue came after an Adelaide man who lost a Supreme Court challenge against Australia’s compulsory voting system announced plans to take his legal fight to the High Court.
theaimn.com/2013/01/04/keep-voting-compulsory/

The Dishonest Politics Club extracts from  Margo Kingston
Abbott’s initial letter to the AEC about the Australians for Dishonest Politics Trust. Did he mislead a Government agency, and therefore commit a crime, by saying he obtained legal advice before setting up the Trust?
www.independentaustralia.net/.../

Living on $35 a day — a challenge  Alex Bond
No Australian citizen should have to live on $35 a day. It’s unfathomable.

I’ve decided to do this so that my colleagues in the Australian Democrats, my friends and my family gain a better understanding of the difficulties faced by those worse off.

It’s time for politicians right around Australia to put their big pay packets where their mouths are and join me on Newstart for the month of February.

www.independentaustralia.net/.../

Peter Slipper did NOT sexually harass James Ashby  Margo Kingston
IN THE ABSENCE of any major mainstream news features on, or serious analysis of, the Ashby judgement – and via unchallenged misinformation about what it decided by Opposition frontbenchers – several misconceptions have arisen among people.

One is that Peter Slipper did sexually harass James Ashby, but that Justice Rares threw it out because the purpose of suing was to destroy Slipper and bring down the government.

In fact, Justice Rares made it crystal clear that he did not believe that Slipper sexually harassed Ashby.
www.independentaustralia.net/.../

Julia Gillard’s Place Amongst The List Of Australian Prime Ministers  AustalianPolitics.com
It’s January, it’s the holiday season, but it’s also an election year, so let’s play with some historical data.

Don’t take it too seriously, but 2013 offers a number of interesting possibilities for Prime Minister Julia Gillard.
Gillard is the 27th person to serve as prime minister in the 112 years of Australia’s federation. She is the 11th Labor prime minister.
australianpolitics.com/.../...prime-ministers.html

Scrapping Compulsory Voting Clive Palmer
Clive Palmer says a proposal to abolish compulsory voting in Queensland is a blow to democracy.
twitter.com/.../1

Why Liberalism is Losing Its Way  John Keane
Look around, or beyond the borders where you live. You’ll probably have noticed that disquiet and disaffection are spreading through the drought fields of democracy. Political parties and legislatures are not exactly in favour. Public disenchantment with politicians and official “politics” is rising everywhere, fed by corruption and power-grabbing, factional infighting and mischief-making populists.
theconversation.edu.au/why-liberalism-is-losing-its-way-11461

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)

January 4. 2013 10:01 AM

Gravel

Janice

How are you, hope you are keeping cool in this awful heat.  I agree, it seems everyone is comparing  New Start to a permanent pension.  I only has ever been a tempory thing.  When the single parent thing was changed in 2006, it was  a fair warning to everyone that it would apply sooner or later, otherwise some single parents were getting an easier ride than others.  It is all equal now, as it should have been at the start.

Gravel

January 4. 2013 10:12 AM

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)


I guess we've seen this coming for a while.

Plan to boost singles' dole payments by $50 a week under consideration by Gillard Government  Sue Dunlevy

DOLE payments to single people would be boosted by $50 a week under a plan being considered by the Gillard Government.

Welfare groups want the increase - costing $1.5 billion a year - to be included in the May budget.

They are also pushing for hose on the dole to be able to work longer hours and earn an extra $17 a week before any benefits were clawed back.

This option would cost a more modest $220 million.Currently someone on the dole can only earn $31 a week, less than two hours at the minimum wage, before they start losing benefits.

Welfare groups met with Employment Minister Bill Shorten's advisers late last year to discuss the options and are expecting further talks early this year.

www.heraldsun.com.au/.../story-e6frf7jo-1226547328473

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)

January 4. 2013 10:54 AM

42 long

  Once words like "dole bludgers" etc the argument goes off the rails, You can recognise "demonising a group easily.
  None the less there HAS to be a problem when inter generational lack of participation in the norma workforce becomes significant. The society envisaged by Abbott and those who take a Political view is to probably create more criminal activity in the underclasses. Most Right-wingers advocate a tough stance on crime and more money spent on incarceration.
   This seem st be part of the philosophy. Get rid of Unions who stand for workers Rights. Drive workers wages down to compete with the "slave labour" countries, cut off support and education for the lower socio-econmic sector, make university harder for them and IF they don't have enough of the wealth and resort to crime to eat or get the necessities, LOCK THEM UP in a privately run Prison .( The new growth Industry in the LieNP run states). Brave New World scenario that would only lead to social upheaval eventually.

42 long

January 4. 2013 11:01 AM

LadyInRed

Psyclaw

I agree about Macklin. She has always come accross as a good minister to me. One gotcha moment does not represent who she is and what she stands for. Myself, I was still basking in the Woodford glory, the PM looking so refreshed and being received so well, and then this gotcha....well its dissappointing from a PR standpoint. However, it has gotten a lot of healthy debate happening, and that's a good thing. And now a consideration to increase Newstart is at least on the table.

It has gotten another discussion underway, at least on this site, as to whether people should remain on the SPP? Personally I don't think it is a good idea to become dependent on welfare. With what we now know if we want to stop generational welfare we need to get people into the workforce, even part time. I was a working mother and while I know its difficult ultimately it does teach our children about a work ethic. To be able to stay with your children at home, with assistance from the government, until a child reaches 8 years old is very generous by comparison to many other countries. If we can turn around welfare dependence by firstly allowing maternity payments for working mothers, followed by decent and affordable childcare, and an education system where the child is the focus and funding is targeted, encouragement for further education and ongoing training,we may see a cultural shift, which is what is needed. If we can just give this government at the miniumum 2 more turns with this as the focus then perhaps we will start to see a change in welfare dependency.

LadyInRed

January 4. 2013 11:03 AM

Ken

42 long

Tasmania has a few economic problems - perhaps Abbott could solve them by turning it back into a penal colony!!!!!!

Ken

January 4. 2013 11:15 AM

42 long

Yikes!  Don't give him ideas Ken. I was thinking of living there unassisted.

42 long

January 4. 2013 11:16 AM

2353

Ken, some would say that the reopening of a Detention Centre has already done that Laughing

2353

January 4. 2013 11:26 AM

janice

Hi Gravel,
I am like Paddy dog and can't hack the heat of summer.  I lived in the wilds of Central Australia as a kid and 'died' every summer - no such thing as airconditioning then but temps around 100 degrees F were normal during Dec, Jan and Feb.  Of course, little or no rain was also "normal" Smile

On one property, part of the house was made of mud bricks and those rooms were much cooler than the unlined iron part.  There was a breezeway between the kitchen and rest of the house and there was a coolgardie safe there.  In summer the water tray on top of the coolgardie was a cool space for all sorts of birds that packed themselves in for relief from the heat.  

janice

January 4. 2013 12:11 PM

Ken

For those discussing the welfare, single parent payment.  This was actually reported by The Australian [cough! spit!!] in 2010, based on an OECD report.  It make sinteresting reading in terms of the debate we often have about welfare payments in Oz.

www.theaustralian.com.au/.../story-e6frg9qo-1225817876786

Ken

January 4. 2013 12:33 PM

Paul of Berwick

And in the light of a discussion about productivity/flexibility/etc some interesting thoughts ..... www.theglobalmail.org/.../

Paul of Berwick

January 4. 2013 12:49 PM

TalkTurkey

Janice Hi,

I loved your little reminisce re the Coolgardie safe. Precious memory, delightful story.
Poor Paddy Dog, I do feel for all creatures that have to endure these conditions as well as habitat loss, starvation, predation by ferals and persecution by people, etc, (and it goes for all people too, and worldwide of course.) But I can remember when 100F was a really hot day, that's 38C, 44 C is What? I forget the conversion but it's about 110 F if I'm right. It's not unprecedented, but it feels usual for summers now to have several such days. We have air-conditioning, or at least shelter and water and food, but poor dispossessed decimated native creatures, we just go on extinguishing species. That is the saddest thing of all to me.  

Spare a thought for Patricia's itchy arm in this weather!

[!*Computer tells me unbidden that 44 C = 111.2 F! MAGIC! Hover cursor on temperature in one scale, 'puter shows you conversion too!]

So many contributors, sorry not to answer all, but Cheers and Thanks anyway. Especially Janet and DMW, because they are doing their bit deliberately for Us.

ATM it seems a bit like Phony War. Brough Pyne Abbortt Bishop et al have gone to ground. When they do emerge, let us beat them back into their holes, or chase them over a cliff like Devil-possessed Gadarene Swine they so indistinguishably resemble. They are CROOKS, TRAITORS, who have plotted to overthrow by nefarious and illegal means to overthrow a legitimate Government!

DON'T "move on" the way the Opposition and Media want us to. INSIST that the miscreants be brought to justice.

As soon as they surface!    

TalkTurkey

January 4. 2013 01:26 PM

TalkTurkey

Paul of Berwick

You have a wonderful gravatar as I have noted times before but will you PLEASE EXPLAIN it? What is the Pointy Thing ?What is in the ?lab-coated? Kangaroo's paw? What is the picture on the computer screen? What secrets does the folder hold? WHO IS this erudite-looking quadruped?

Especially, WHAT IS THAT POINTY THING? Please Oh Please!

TalkTurkey

January 4. 2013 01:31 PM

bilko

Hi Gravel and AA thanks for the info re Hillbilly. Just back with my grandson from seeing the "Jack Reacher" movie with Tom Cruise in the role he did good and they stuck reasonable close to the book for all the other JR fans out there well worth seeing
PS Lee Childs does a cameo non speaking role.

bilko

January 4. 2013 01:53 PM

LadyInRed

Just having a lunch break and reading the local Noosa News. Front page headline Eateries struggle with penalty rates during holidays. Chamber of commerce president Carl Beck all fired up.....how dare people in hospitality (some of the lowest paid workers) get extra money for working on Christmas day? Something has to be done, people who opened their doors made no money when penalty rates are so high.

NO MENTION OF THE EXORBITANT AND I MEAN EXORBITANT RENTS FOR COMMERICAL PROPERTIES IN NOOSA! Believe me they are shocking!

Oh no we dare not mention that for fear the filthy rich might get upset. No lets blame the poor wait staff and kitchen hands who get paid next to nothing.

You can see this gets me upset.

LadyInRed

January 4. 2013 02:04 PM

LadyInRed

OK Blood pressure back to normal - back to work.

LadyInRed

January 4. 2013 02:09 PM

xiaoecho

ken, 42 long and 2353

I live in Tassie and I can tell you the government here would jump at the chance to be the 'prison state'

jobs jobs jobs

xiaoecho

January 4. 2013 02:13 PM

Jason

LIR,
   We had the same thing here in Adelaide over the Christmas/New Year period.
In the lead up talkback radio and the Adelaide Now web site were in full flight in their attack that people were going to be paid penalty rates.
The silly thing about it is there's a skill shortage for Chefs and the type of comment you posted will only drive more out of the industry, I'm a qualified Chef and Patissier and wouldn't go back to it, I earn three times as much now than I did when I was cooking and without all the stress and shit hours I used to work!

Jason

January 4. 2013 02:53 PM

janice

Talk Turkey,

Paddy Dog is sprawled out on the cool ceramic floor tiles - his heat stress begins when temps exceed 28 degrees C but then the poor bugger was made for the cold climes of Italy.  

The coolgardie safe is a fond memory of mine and certainly was effective along with the canvas water bag we had hanging in the breezeway to provide cool water to drink.

Talking of high temps though.  We passed through Coober Pedy en route to the Alice in the late afternoon one January day and stopped for fuel and a cool drink.  Got the fuel OK but dipped out on the drink, cool or otherwise.  The temperature on the store verandah was 120F,  the refrigeration plant had failed and the town had run out of water because there'd been no rain for months.  That was when I realised why the inhabitants of Coober Pedy lived underground and the store building and fuel bowsers were all that could be seen above ground.

janice

January 4. 2013 03:13 PM

LadyInRed

Jason my son is a chef. At present he loves it. Working on Christmas day and New Years is awful (his restaurant is closed Christmas day). Most people would prefer not to even with the penalty rates. Up here for the people who actually live here the hospitality industry is just about the biggest employer after the government, so taking money out of the hands of them is self defeating for the whole area. If you make it too hard to live here (and believe me rents here are high) then you will have no-one to work. In the low seasons the people who live make the difference between shutting your doors and remaining open. Go figure.

LadyInRed

January 4. 2013 03:21 PM

42 long

  You even spell the name CooBer correctly. Only been there once. ( in and out in a smallish plane). People may look at the map of Australia and think how large it is for such a small population. About 85% live on the east coast.. Quoted as the driest continent bar the antarctic. We need to understand this place and look after it. Most of it would be technically uninhabitable and having higher temps to look forward to is a frightening prospect. I am getting a bit annoyed at those who perpetuate lies about climate change just so they can make a lot of dough from coal and gas and ores that despoil the land by extracting them, and are made out to be "HERO'S" by Abbott. This man knows NOT the truth . There has to be a real day of reckoning about this. With increasing awareness of the effects of the greenhouse qases, without which this planet would be mostly covered with ice, and with an excess becomes
dangerously hot, the deniers are still going flat out to confuse the issue.. Why would a group of boozers in the pub's opinion equal the same number of Climate Experts. Climate scientists are a bit like black trackers. If they don't pass peer review they are discredited. You might "buy" a few but they are finished as credible people in their occupation.  The FACTs are what we should be dealing in, not balancing it with a lot of "flat earth" opinions. Or just as bad, people who take a "spike" in a graph as an indicator of the fact the earth is Cooling.  The extent of the earth  atmosphere is not so great nor the oceans big enough to take the contamination we chuck at it. We are so numerous now that we can poison the planet literally with our waste. Carbon dioxide has made the oceans so ACID that many species are threatened with extinction, and parts of the ocean may go dead.

42 long

January 4. 2013 03:57 PM

Jason

Radio station 5AA have tweeted Adelaide 44.5 at 2:51pm 4th on the All-time list of Adelaide's hottest days

Hope the Turkey hasn't roasted!

Jason

January 4. 2013 04:03 PM

LadyInRed

Agree 42 long. I like your black tracker/climate scientist analogy. Love your passion on the subject too. Deny and do business as usual is a strange reaction to the evidence. I do know that people are very good at denying and deflecting in their everyday lives, they just don't let the information in (talk to the hand), so nothing to process.

Paul of Berwick that was a very intersting article.

LadyInRed

January 4. 2013 04:05 PM

BSA Bob

Just a small & carping technical point.
I regard the Macklin Affair as more a setup than a gotcha.
It got the conversation away from positive news for the government about the increased family payments they're making.
With the usual refusal to involve the coalition in any questioning all the heat was directed at the government.
It was a museum quality leading question to which there was no good answer.

Perhaps a more interesting issue is to ask why this sort of questioning is almost never applied to the coalition.

BSA Bob

January 4. 2013 04:11 PM

Jason

Tony Burke‏@Tony_Burke

The Federal Court agrees: National Parks are not farms. m.theage.com.au/.../...o-stand-20130104-2c8b0.html …#AusPol #environment

Jason

January 4. 2013 04:19 PM

Patriciawa

Thanks for the thought TT, but it has cooled down here, and we do have the Fremantle Doctor, that lovely sea breeze, on most of our hottest days.   But I do feel for friends in the east who are suffering 40 plus days on end of heat.

Yes the itch is there, but any pain or throbbing is caused by using the arm too much, I think now that my fingers and arm are getting so much stronger after taking off that sling.  I'm suddenly aware that this loyal old body needs consideration, not cosseting so much, but better management than in the past.

Yes, Janice, the pooches have to be considered too, don't they?
Although my experience is that Tacker considers me.  He takes to the cool of the wooden floor at night but if I get up to wee he moves out of my path until I'm safely back in bed.  He understands about walking early morning and evening on the shady side of the street too.

I think I'll stick to cutting and pasting from my visits down memory lane for a while through this heat and with this vulnerable arm.  Reading all you have to say and following up everyone's links at leisure is a real treat too, for which thank you Janet, and others too like DMW and Paul of Berwick.  Ken, that 2010 Oz article re the OECD report was enlightening, wasn't it?

Michael, I've always loathed Joe Hockey and could never understand his apparent appeal to some journos and his party.  And the idea that's he's considered leadership material is utterly bewildering.  You're so right.   Sloppy Joe is the apt name for him, for sure.

Patriciawa

January 4. 2013 04:26 PM

Ken

LiR  Jason

Delayed comments because I lost my internet connection for about 45 minutes.  

Abbott would repeat Howard's effort to eliminate penalty rates.  I alays feel sorry for people who have to work late at night, on weekends and holidays for "my convenience".  I actually feel guilty eating out on holidays!

And I know from speaking with small shopkeepers in malls that high rents are a major problem - two places I where I bought lunch when I was working both closed for that reason.  The other problem is that they are often forced to stay open for all hours the mall stipulates.  And they are often required to update their store every 2-3 years.  That is built into their lease agreements because the marketing managers say that people will tire of something that doesn't change and appears "new" every few years.

42 long
One of the biggest problems re climate change is the population.  Back in the first oil crisis in the '70s there were articles suggesting our resources would diminish quickly when places like China and India began developing and seeking a Western standard of living.

I have mentioned before a paper by two Scandinavian scientists that links global warming, not just to CO2 but the amount of heat/energy the human population is generating.  Their maths suggested that between 70 and 90% of global warming could be explained in that way.  The difference was simply different mathematical models.  But they also suggested that if the lower figure was more accurate, it could indicate that there were heat sinks we did not have data for (e.g. deep ocean) and that heat would be released as the climate warmed.  An interesting approach that relates the problem directly to human numbers because it does include millions of household fires in African and Asian nations.  But population is the elephant in the room in the climate discussion and no-one dares mention it.

Ken

January 4. 2013 04:34 PM

LadyInRed

Bob Katter's Australian Party, which has three Queensland MPs, appears certain to work in coalition with Mr Palmer's United Australia Party, if it gets off the ground.


www.couriermail.com.au/.../story-e6freoof-1226547253590

What a mixture. I wonder what happened to Clives statement about the KAP:Political parties have to be built on an ideaology not a personality. Now here we have a combined party based on two huge personalities! Katter's hat isn't only very big because he wants to keep the sun off his head. And don;t forget Clive's dinosaur .....oh and the Titanic. Everything is big in Queensland!

LadyInRed

January 4. 2013 04:45 PM

Patriciawa

Hi again, Michael!    Yes, a load of codswallop is written about Sloppy Joe.  E.g. Christopher Joye  
www.afr.com/.../joe_hockey_man_of_hidden_strengths_KE3Jop9YGeK9xeyEPnR03M thinks that
“the problem with Hockey is that his humanity and authenticity are both an asset and a liability. In contrast to many peers, he struggles to subjugate his integrity to the political altar of opportunism.”My response to that is that

I think the media are too kind
To  Tony Abbott’s not so little mate,
Suggesting he’s just disinclined
To malice and therefore too straight
To efficiently repeat the line
The Liberals have on interest rates.

Let me explain what’s on my mind.
Hockey’s a man I learned to hate
As he once nastily declined
When asked,  at an Amnesty stall,
For a petition to be signed.
He took me aside in that shopping mall
As he let loose with ‘f’s ‘n blinds’
Which showed him not just overweight
But as big a bully one might find.

THAT IS WHY……..

I loathe Joe Hockey!
He’s not just fat
And not just sloppy.
He’s a nasty rat
Who gets me stroppy.
I’d love a bat
To wham that floppy
Big bully flat.
So, don’t be soppy.
Don’t be a prat.
Send in your copy.
Let’s wallop him and Abbott  SPLAT*!*!*!

Patriciawa

January 4. 2013 04:55 PM

MWS

Interesting correlation between reducing environmental lead and decreasing crime rates:

www.motherjones.com/.../lead-crime-link-gasoline

Even more interestingly, Thomas Midgley was the man who discovered tetraethyl lead stopped "knocking" in engines.  He also developed the first chlorofluorocarbons for use in refrigeration.  Has any one man done more environmental damage than this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley,_Jr.

MWS

January 4. 2013 05:11 PM

xiaoecho

Has anybody else noticed the MSM have begun writing articles to prepare the electorate for an Abbott government?

ANOTHER one again today

www.smh.com.au/.../...-stretch-20130103-2c77m.html

xiaoecho

January 4. 2013 05:12 PM

LadyInRed

So a fluff piece on Hockey soften us up in case TAbbott become so on the nose his party has to dump him.

One of Malcolm Turnbull’s enduring strengths is that people use him as a canvas on which to project aspirations. Turnbull is a kaleidoscope of vaulted visions for folks on the left- and right-hand sides of the political spectrum.

In contrast, Hockey’s humanity tends to reflect back your vulnerabilities. He’s like an echo chamber: those who pass judgment often reveal more about themselves than their target.



Apparently we project all our aspirations onto Turnbull, but Hockey is so brilliant that he reflects back whatever, so say something negative about him and its really all about you. Explains the 'go to hell'. So what does Tabbott bring out in us? The very best and the very worst?

As a fluff piece its not very good.

LadyInRed

January 4. 2013 06:26 PM

2353

42long - agree completely.  We have no right to leave this planet in a worse condition than we found it.  I've asked on another forum why is it we're happy to insure cars, homes, health and life but won't pay a "premium" (in the form of a change in consumption) to insure the planet we intend to leave for our descendants?

I would like your permission to copy and paste this part
With increasing awareness of the effects of the greenhouse qases, without which this planet would be mostly covered with ice, and with an excess becomes
dangerously hot, the deniers are still going flat out to confuse the issue.. Why would a group of boozers in the pub's opinion equal the same number of Climate Experts. Climate scientists are a bit like black trackers. If they don't pass peer review they are discredited. You might "buy" a few but they are finished as credible people in their occupation.  The FACTs are what we should be dealing in, not balancing it with a lot of "flat earth" opinions. Or just as bad, people who take a "spike" in a graph as an indicator of the fact the earth is Cooling.  The extent of the earth  atmosphere is not so great nor the oceans big enough to take the contamination we chuck at it. We are so numerous now that we can poison the planet literally with our waste. Carbon dioxide has made the oceans so ACID that many species are threatened with extinction, and parts of the ocean may go dead.

of your post over there (it's in a members only area) to stir the possum a tad.  It makes a lot of sense.

2353

January 4. 2013 06:40 PM

KHTAGH



Folks I'm hopping I'll be posting in the future but the peninsular fire is only 1 klm down the road. It is big already many deaths & houses gone up in flames, till you hear from me again KHTAGH signing off.

KHTAGH

January 4. 2013 06:49 PM

42 long

  The thrust of MSM opinion is that an LNP win is expected. The way I read it, the availability of time , the time to prepare and put forward good policy, publicise the achievements of the past 3 years, the downside of Slipper/Ashby and Abbott's increasingly poor performance when questioned all favours Labor. I cannot see what justifies their "cockiness". Will they continue to rely on propaganda led by the ill named "Australian".? more appropriately UN- Australian. The TREND for Labor is UP, particularly in Victoria where the polls are 55/45 for labor. Truth comes out eventually. Running full term under the circumstances is a triumph for Labor and should by itself be the political death nell of Abbott because that is the platform he ran on. ( An early election) Plenty see his continuing poor performance  as a gain for labor and want him to stay there. Regardless of that wishfull thinking by some laborites, trying to change leaders for the LieNP would be so traumatic for them with their present shadow front bench that the shock might be too much, the change too great. I would say turnbull will have a go. He has to or retire from the federal scene. The last few years has been less than auspicious for him. MSM must know this. Sometimes it is not what they say but what they don't go near that tells the story.

42 long

January 4. 2013 06:55 PM

TalkTurkey

KHTAGH

Good Luck and Courage Comrade!

We will be hanging out for news. No news will be bad news.

Hope your property and busy little operatives are safe.

TalkTurkey

January 4. 2013 07:03 PM

42 long

2353, you are welcome to quote the passage, and you do me an honour by so doing.

42 long

January 4. 2013 07:28 PM

Ken

KHTAGH

Although you won't see this until later, all the best.  The Canberra fire in 2003 passed within 3-400 metres of our place and I know what it's like.  Afterwards some people said our property looked like it had had an inch of rain - that's the key, water and more water everywhere.

Even worse when the power goes and there's no cold beer!!  I had to drink half a bottle of scotch with no ice to settle the nerves and reduce the adrenalin afterwards.

Ken

January 4. 2013 07:38 PM

Ken

42 long

Yes, the polls are trending in the right direction and it is not as though we need to change the minds of 20-30% of the population.  If 3-5% start having qualms about the direction of the LNP that will be enough.

Although I have said previously that Turnbull could be a danger to the Government, I agree that a change could backfire and be seen as a sign of turmoil in the LNP ranks and as someone once said "disunity is death" in politics.

Ken

January 4. 2013 07:54 PM

Shirley

KNTAGH  Keep safe and good luck, to my fellow Tassie's hope all is well. It is really bad in the south, luckily for me the fire nearby has been controlled.

Shirley

January 4. 2013 08:24 PM

2353

Knee High - stay safe and I hope your property survives.

2353

January 4. 2013 08:34 PM

Patriciawa

xiaoecho - I think he is warning us rather than preparing us!!

To KHTAGH and OTHERS in bushfire vicinity take care! GOOD LUCK!

To all of you suffering the heat over east, a comforting word from here.  It feels wonderful when it stops!   WA feels fresh again after that sweltering run several days of 40 plus.  A plus for us is that the Fremantle Doctor is here again, doing his job.  




Patriciawa

January 4. 2013 08:36 PM

Jason

Good Luck KHTAGH!

Jason

January 4. 2013 08:47 PM

bob macalba

Good luck KHTAGH,.. hope all is well for yourself and all others in harms way

bob macalba

January 4. 2013 09:12 PM

Truth Seeker

KHTAGH, stay safe mate, and hope your property, friends and neighbours are all fine.

Thinking of you, good luck

Cheers

Truth Seeker

January 4. 2013 11:08 PM

jane

KHTAGH, hope that the bushfires have bypassed you and your friends and neighbours and you're all safe and well.

Relief from the heat where I live-a lovely south westerly has dropped the temperature very nicely.

I hope everyone else suffering through the heat has got some relief, especially KHTAGH and his fellow Taswegians.

Patriciawa @4.45pm, obviously Mr Joye didn't read Hockey's spiteful tweet about the PM spending Christmas with her widowed mother. Or perhaps Mr Joye thinks that sort of thing is exemplary behaviour.

AFAIC, that tweet showed the true character of that revolting pile of blubber and your experience of his "integrity", "humanity" and "authenticity" is confirmation that he is a very nasty piece of work indeed, devoid of decency, empathy and morals.

jane

January 5. 2013 08:30 AM

Ken

KHTAGH

Sincerely hope you managed to avoid the main fire front and all are safe this morning.  Hope you are able to return to TPS soon

Ken

January 5. 2013 08:47 AM

Cuppa

At times like this, when Tassie has recorded its hottest day since records began, I feel contempt for climate change denial politics.

Cuppa

January 5. 2013 09:04 AM

Gravel

Knee High

I hope you are okay.......will keep checking here today and hope to hear from you.  

Janice and Patriciawa

For a minute or two I was thinking we were back to a couple of years ago when you two were here a lot, it was great.  You are lucky Patriciawa to have the nice cool breeze.  We had the air conditioner on all night (East Gippsland, Vic), I felt guilty but lack of sleep is bad and we need to cope with more heat this week.

Had a stressful day yesterday.  When I could get onto the CFA website there was a fire near where son and family were camping.  Useless State Libs, what do they expect in an emergency.  Of course family and friends are going to get on to the computer to check where the fires are. While waiting, I checked the CFA site in Tassie (lived there for 6 wonderful years).  They had maps, like google maps attached to their site so you could see where the fires were, it was bloody fantastic.

To cut a long story short, the Ranger had told the campers it was a total fire ban, they decided to come home early or lose the fish they had in the gas fired freezer.  I couldn't believe how relieved I was to hear them on the phone.  They rang as soon as they got home, as there was no mobile reception.

Gravel

January 5. 2013 09:37 AM

Patriciawa

Hello Gravel - "back to a couple of years ago"!!   I wish!   No, I'm afraid I've been pushed a couple of years on by this fall and the damaged wrist.  I have, however been trying to follow AA's advice about using my fingers on the splinted hand.   So there have been a few more comments from me than had been happening since I was knocked down on that crossing mid-year.  But much of it is old stuff.

But you're right, and I'm sure Janice, and I hope Lyn, AA, TT and Hillbilly and others would all agree, "It was great!"   I hadn't realized quite how great until I started doing so much cutting and pasting of all the pomes inspired by the commentary here since 2010.

Sometimes we are are blessed with working relationships that gel like that, and we don't recognise them till later.  Now we have another great combination here, some of the old names and many new.  Ouch, my hand hurts........perhaps Lady in Red could list the names which bring her here to comment........

Patriciawa

January 5. 2013 10:17 AM

DMW

From the Newspapers ...
   What the front pages are saying

via Front Pages Today - http://goo.gl/enTjx

The Australian - http://goo.gl/3bnTO
Bushfires savage towns as heatwave hits five states
Juvenile prisons ‘a storing house’

The Sydney Morning Herald - http://goo.gl/1kOHj
Economy takes toll on land values Inner-west suburbs take off
So why do we feel so safe? http://goo.gl/hLu5J
(It's not crocs but it is SHARKS)

The Daily Telegraph - http://goo.gl/JXc7d
AUSSIE, AUSSIE, HOT, HOT, HOT
FIRST RATE DECISION - Big banks consider history-making interest cut http://goo.gl/okefI

The Age - http://goo.gl/j6tKW
Secret world of our taxi titans
Job squeeze in tough year

The Herald Sun - http://goo.gl/0wNCf
PHEW! What a Scorcher
FREE RIDE - Lack of staff means hoons' cars escape crusher

The Courier Mail - http://goo.gl/7NTLf
Best Places to Catch a Break (for surfing)
Calender Cops - Monthly crime blitzes are secret police tactic

The Adelaide Advetiser - http://goo.gl/ApkdY
We Beat The 45(degree) Heat
Premier urges state to shake off the blues - http://goo.gl/0SU2t

The Hobart Mercury - http://goo.gl/J8x10
HELLFIRE (with a pretty scary pic)

The NT Times - http://goo.gl/7f7VB
What is the world coming to? - STILL NO CROCS Frown Frown
Boy, 14, Caught Dealing Drugs

DMW

January 5. 2013 10:35 AM

DMW

The Hobart Mercury, http://www.themercury.com.au/ , today features, as you would expect, many pictures and stories on the bushfires creating havoc in the state.

The article Devastation at Dunalley  (which I gather is very near where KneeHigh lives) has a video that is scary
www.themercury.com.au/.../...47_tasmania-news.html

DMW

January 5. 2013 10:43 AM

TalkTurkey

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

KHTAGH Our thoughts are of you, Please don't leave us in the dark if you are able to communicate. Dog be with you.  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

TalkTurkey

January 5. 2013 11:17 AM

KHTAGH

  All swords folk, many thanks for your best wishes.

  So far so good, fire is still only 2-3 klms away, has kind of gone around me, just hoping we don't get a NE'er currently SW turning it back on itself, have not been to bed yet. At 12:00 last night it was coming straight at me, but then the wind changed direction, thank Dog.

Even tho I was advised to evacuate I stayed as I have a full 2" wet hose system that can shoot water over 40 mtrs, with sprayers on all my buildings as well, motor powered, with over 18,000 gallons in reserve just for fire fighting.

  Wind has died down. Just goes to show you can't believe what some police say, the reason I said yesterday that there had been several deaths so far, that's what the police said, more to make people evacuate I think, or they just didn't know.

I still don't know how our cows are. They were at a mates place. He is still not allowed to go home. Some pictures on my facebook page of the fire coming towards us yesterday (taken while preparing to fight it) & the aftermath across the river from me at around 1:00am, we left just before it got to us.

http://www.facebook.com/csajben

  I'll keep you abreast of the situation as long as I can.

KHTAGH

January 5. 2013 11:19 AM

KHTAGH

Your comments have, caused a TT reaction, very watery eyes, thanks from the bottom of my heart.

KHTAGH

January 5. 2013 11:33 AM

Ken

KHTAGH

So good to hear all okay at the moment.  I imagine you may need to keep things damp, depending on which way the embers are carrying.  A long night for you and the need to remain watchful today.  Good luck with it.  Hopefully the weather forecasts are accurate and the worst weather has passed.  Make sure to sit down and have a few beers when it is over!

Ken

January 5. 2013 12:42 PM

janice

Kneehigh,
I am quite relieved that so far all is well at your place - my thoughts were with you.  Hope your cattle are Okay as well.

Gravel (and anyone else who might be interested).

Last summer I purchased a "full length gel under-blanket" I found in a mail order catalogue from Bright Life Australia (www.brightlife.com.au).  Cost me fifty bucks and has been worth every cent.  I place it underneath the bottom sheet of my bed and it keeps me comfortably cool all night.  Haven't had to run the aircon at all.

Just one little thing to remember is not to hang the underblanket but store it flat, otherwise the gel moves down the bottom of the sections.  

The other thing I invested in was a mister-fan which works very well indeed when the humidity is low.

janice

January 5. 2013 12:54 PM

Ad astra

HKTAGH
I'm so relieved to read that you are OK.  I've just got onto the Internet after struggling all day.  Our hearts are with you; we hope the fires soon abate and that your cows are OK.

The bushfires in Tasmania are tragic with so many homes lost and maybe one person.  We in Victoria empathise with all Tasmanians affected by the fires there.

With all the holiday makers down here at the moment, all on their mobile phones, the 3G system is overloaded so getting onto the Internet is a constant struggle.   I'll probably not be around much, same as yesterday.

Ad astra

January 5. 2013 01:22 PM

Gravel

Knee High

Glad you are okay for now, looked at your pics, it must be scary.  Thanks for keeping in touch, as you can we are all worried for you.

Janice

Thanks for that, I'm now going to the site to see if I can find it, sounds like a great idea.

Gravel

January 5. 2013 01:27 PM

42 long

KHTAGH, If you are going to fight the fire, watch out for radiant heat. Try to wear something light coloured and non- inflammable and with insulating properties. My intention is to do that where I am. Big hot fires seek oxygen and the atmosphere just becomes a ball of flaming gas with a lot of the oils in the trees volatilising. Take care Pal.

42 long

January 5. 2013 01:55 PM

Truth Seeker

KHTAGH,Glad to hear you're OK mate, if you get time and feel like a bit of light relief, check this out.   Smile

cafewhispers.wordpress.com/.../

Stay safe

CheersSmile

Truth Seeker

January 5. 2013 02:13 PM

TalkTurkey


Ad astra, Comrade Swordsfolks,

Professor Peter van Onselen has agreed to accept the invitation to respond to questions and comments which we may put to him here. I deeply appreciate his preparedness to do so; equally of course he may make comments of his own, but of course that option is always open to him on TPS, as Ad astra points out. That is a great beauty of the 5th Estate - it is utterly availableto all  at any time to all.

The interface could be fascinating. As we can now interTweet with some politicians, notably Craig Emerson, so too some journalists are noted Tweeps, Latika Bourke most particularly. But as soon as one says something critical of their attitudes, (as I have been known to do!) most of these precious petals block you, as she and several others have done to me. Boo Hoo.Smile (btw please note, I have never blocked anyone.)

Peter van Onselen is to be respected for his mettle in facing criticism on Twitter, and for his courageous decision in agreeing to come here. I am deeply sincere about that, and I know every true~hearted Swordie here will be thoroughly  respectful too. That is why I felt confident in specifically inviting him here.

[What a lot it says for Ad astra, that in this poisonous political climate, he can maintain a site on which a code of civility is so overwhelmingly dominant wrt other contributors. This site is a social phenomenon!]

I have already, on this thread, argued my case for semi-anonymity: there are some counter-intuitive good reasons for it. Ad astra himself uses a pseudonym, why should he do otherwise? But plainly Peter is a bit discombobulated by the notion, that is not our problem however. The only time our identity would become germane would be if someone here made actionably slanderous comments, in which case I have no doubt that police would find the alleged slanderer very quickly. My own Identity is about two quick clicks away, not hidden, just not bruited. OK Peter? As you say - you can't do much about it, except 'out' me, as Massola did with Greg Jericho, and that would be funny because everyone can find me who cares to look, and most people here know who I am. It is not important, as long as I obey the law - which I do. I do insult competently, but I don't lie nor libel.

See Folks, actually I'm already engaging with the issue here, which is to do with - well this is my take on it - the 5th Estate's growing frustration, rage and contempt for the 4th, in our perception of the poor quality of mainstream media reportage, but worse, of its bias and complicity with the political Right.

What is more we accuse the MSM of Groupthink. PvO took issue with me on this point, saying wtte I was using too broad a brush. I'd be glad to be wrong, but I did reply that, to me (and to many more here it seems) that pretty much the whole MSM has coagulated into a grubby defensive lump, either trivially or rabidly on the Right. Exceptions are few and doubtful. Laura Tingle, she's fair, but hardly a red ragger. David Marr is an interesting shade of pink, gotta love him. But about the only one truly committedly on the Left, anywhere within a bull's roar of being as stridently so as so very many on the Right are, is Mark Latham - always lampooned by the rest of the Media btw. The only one who doesn't gainsay J*U*L*I*A*s record of achievement. Am I wrong?

Margo Kingston's re-entry after 10 years to the political journalism scene provides a Rip van Winkle view through her own eyes as she surveys with appalled dismay the changes to her profession in that time.

But Peter van Onselen may yet prove to be the exception to the rule, He Who Is Unlumped. But I know that nobody here will be overly deferential, just as no-one should be too acerbic. There is room for honest challenge, where there is no room for uncalled-for insults.

I make clear that I do not expect of him that he take a Left point of view. I do ask that he be prepared logically to argue his own case, whatever it might be, and I will agree with him where I do, and challenge him where I think him biased or inconsistent in his views.      

Ad astra's blogsite is dedicated to "putting politicians and commentators to the verbal sword." It has always been true to that, so PvO's presence here is, beyond being apposite, is also a little akin to a soldier putting his life on the line to parlay with the enemy. We will respect that feistiness I know.

I meant to try to post all the Tweets between him, me, and the other couple of persons included in his original invitation - GreensboroughGrowler and Thefinnigans - but it's already a big list and I haven't time right now. Please can you folks think over the implications of PvO's presence here; he says, fairly, he doesn't want to commit too much time, well that's up to him of course but we might all improve our shining hour here, PvO included. Think over what you want to say to him Folks. Ta.    

Oh and here's a tweet from Thefinnigans whom along with GG I have specifically asked to come here to TPS where we can TALK not like in 140 characters on Twitter.

TheFinnigans天地有道人无道‏@Thefinnigans
at one time, if u were asked to appear on TV, u jump. Wow, reputation/cred enhanced. Now, WGAF

I do have some sympathy with that. I'm not very pretty anyhow!

But Peter, I make clear that I am not insensible to the opportunity you have offered Finnie GG & me: I just don't want to take you up on it, not atm anyway. This could change I suppose. In the meantime, respect and goodwill. I mean that.

One more thing. I think that this reversal of roles is unique, and I thank you Peter van Onselen for countenancing it. Let's see if we can do something useful. It's time to start communicating anew. Happy to start with you.      

TalkTurkey

January 5. 2013 02:59 PM

TalkTurkey

KHTAGH

YOU caused an instant TT reaction in ME! I KID YOU NOT!

Still hoping for good moos from your Cows. That's an awful pun I know. But every Swordie has an emotional attachment to your Cows now. Please Dog . . !

And I hope that your Bees are beeing sensible, they won't like the smoke but I guess they'll stay home, gutsing themselves with YOUR honey as they do when they are smoked.. Grab a bellyful in case (they fear) they have to decamp in a hurry, I know you know . . .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What a good thing is The Political Sword. Bit like Chapel for mostly nontheists/humanists. And nobody is bigoted anyway about others' beliefs, as long as JSMills' principles are adhered to, with a bit of Good Samaritan thrown in. I know our goodwill isn't much help really, but our Grasshopper will be strengthened by it. A sincere wish is about as good as a sincere prayer I'd say. You Swordies are a pleasure to interact with. Thanks Ad astra.

BTW I have at last developed a personal relationship with God. Someone pointed out that his name is Harold.
It was so simple!
The answer was there all along!

For as Jesus told us to say:

Our Father which art in Heaven,
Harold be thy name . . .  


AWWWWWWWW Smile  

TalkTurkey

January 5. 2013 03:11 PM

2353

In the spirit of the post above - welcome PvO.

While I have no problem with people changing their mind, I would like to know why the media don't challenge the mind change.

For example, if Fred Nurk, Opposition Leader in the Federal Parliament announced today that he would keep troops in Afghanistan for a further 3 years - and then a week later (after an Australian soldier is killed) announces that all the troops should be home by Easter it smacks of opportunism unless there is a good reason for it.  It seems at present that the media in general will let what seems like a diametrically opposed opinion go through to the keeper without question.  While it might be rank opportunism, there could be a good reason for it - why don't the media ask the question (and if they do, why don't they tell us what they can)?

A perfect example here is the claim the Prime Minister made a "no carbon tax" promise.  Without getting into the semantics of whether she did or didn't clarify her position in the next sentence that has seen nowhere as much airtime - clearly part of the agreement with some of the Independent MP's was that there would be a fixed carbon price initially.  Why would the media in general not give the PM of this country the opportunity to make this explanation?

2353

January 5. 2013 03:23 PM

KHTAGH


Cows are fine, suffering PTSD we think. Nigel's place is a mess, but where we had wet the yard stopped it in its tracks, went all around the house then off down the hill to the river then over! the river & off down to Primrose sands. This was beyond scary. 41.9 is way too hot for little old Tassie.

KHTAGH

January 5. 2013 03:25 PM

Gravel

Talk Turkey

Well done.  What sort of format will this take with PVO?  Do we just ask questions in case he turns up, or do we wait till he arrives?  How will we know when he will be around?

Gravel

January 5. 2013 04:12 PM

Christine H

KHTAGH

We are not well aquainted but I join with everyone here and wish you well and your cows too! Your nerves most be on edge at the moment but hopefully when the threat has passed you can put your feet up and enjoy a nice cold Tassie beer, mmmm Cascade, yum!

Okay TT, I have to fess up now, I kinda know Peter van Onselen, he was one of my politics lecturers at university here in Perth. Peter was a fantastic lecturer, always professional and approachable and made no secret of his political leanings. I don't always agree with his views however I am sure that if he decides to contribute here it will make for lively discussions.

I am however curious to know why PvO is so interested in engaging with the blogging community. Hopefully he will enlighten us.

TT in our home we thought God's name was Howard, as in Howard by thy name...  Which reminds me my son received an amusing present for Xmas, a coffee mug with a picture of JC, upon filling the mug with liquid JC's beard disappears and the words on the mug are 'Jesus Shaves', love it!

Christine H

January 5. 2013 04:21 PM

42 long

I supported this. To me it's a no brainer. People are entitled to views and should be able to justify them. That doesn't mean we have to agree with them, but the issue is the right to be heard. That is not the right to insult or belittle the messenger rather than address the issue. Trolls fail this test. They strut their wares to annoy, not achieve any kind of concensus.  I used to listen to B A Santamaria. There is little I would agree with there but he was never insulting . One should be aware of how others think.

42 long

January 5. 2013 04:45 PM

Shirley

KHTAGH so glad you are OK and the animals. Take care of yourself over the next few weeks.

Shirley

January 5. 2013 05:55 PM

Gravel

Knee High

Great news for you and your cows.  You must be totally exhausted.  Take care of yourself, and I won't ask how your vege patch etc., are.  We lost some of our veges yesterday, they just got cooked where they lay.. Ah well my son's chooks will have a feast anyways. Smile

Gravel

January 5. 2013 06:25 PM

2353

Knee High - my pescription is a belt of whatever relaxes you and some nice food for the cows.  Glad all is well - stay safe.

2353

January 5. 2013 06:36 PM

Ken

KHTAGH

So glad everything has gone well so far.  As I posted earlier, the trick is keeping everything damp because even if one is not hit directly by the fire front, may still face ember attack - keeping everything wet reduces the chance of the embers starting new spot fires.  I know in 2003 I was told to keep everything wet for 2-3 hours after the fire front passed, and particularly to keep the bottom 6-8 feet of any trees wet.  But obviously you are well prepared and know all this.  I note that while the advice for your area has been downgraded the fire is still about.  I know in Canberra in 2003 we were still on tenterhooks for 3-4 days afterwards as the fire was still burning in some areas.  Relax and rest when you can.tyNUKor exl

Ken

January 5. 2013 06:44 PM

Ken

42 long

I used to listen to B A Santamaria. There is little I would agree with there but he was never insulting . One should be aware of how others think.

Agree that we need to listen to the other side - perhaps it is something like "know thine enemy".  During the Howard years I prepared a paper for my boss (my own initiative) that examined the Government's views and those of right wing think-tanks which seemed to have some influence.  The aim was to allow us to prepare alternative policies in a way, and using the type of wording, that may have a chance of passing muster.  It is always vital to understand the other side.

Ken

January 5. 2013 10:09 PM

DMW

An 'interesting' list of possible seats that Alex White suggests that Labor could lose in his recent post Why 2013 will be a bad year
alexwhite.org/2013/01/why-2013-will-be-a-bad-year/

Equally an 'interesting' response to Alex's post by Andrew Elder Reasons to be cheerful, part 2013
andrewelder.blogspot.com.au/.../...-part-2013.html

Also of interest is some of the Sword absentees commenting on the "elder's blog"

DMW

January 5. 2013 10:16 PM

Psyclaw

2353

"Why would the media in general not give the PM of this country the opportunity to make this explanation?"

This is a good question.

There are also the 2 related questions "Why didn't the MSM itself explain it?" and "Why did the MSM paint the false picture that "a carbon tax" was per se the actual and total product of the MPCCC, and not that it was merely an entry phase to the process?".

Your question and my two lead to the mother of all questions that the MSM should tackle Abbott about (which Mr Turnbull made some hints on Qanda not long back) ie "When you says you'll repeal the "carbon tax" are you saying that you are merely going to end the entry phase immediately and proceed to the main game, the trading scheme, forthwith?"

In other words "Mr Abbott, is your repeal promise a big con to win votes, and are you actually planning to just take us down the government's path to an actual ETS faster than the current time scale?"

Such a con would allow Abbott to keep his "promise" (ie immediately end the "carbon tax" without having to unscramble the scrambled eggs of drawing back the compensation to consumers, and paying compensation to owners of pre-purchased emission certificates (two tasks so many commentators say he will not be able to do.)

Psyclaw

January 5. 2013 11:06 PM

42 long

  As far as it is a "carbon price" or a carbon tax I would take the word of Peat Marwick, and they emphatically called it a Carbon PRICE. The Distorters of the truth can call it anything they like as the have nowt to do with honesty.

42 long

January 6. 2013 01:20 AM

jane

KHTAGH, very relieved to read your comment and know that you're OK, albeit worn out.

Fingers crossed that Vulcan has had his fun and will go home to Mrs Vulcan.

Hope the cows, bees and you suffer no ill effects from your ordeal.

You're right. 41.9 is far too hot for anywhere, imo.

I see the law has called bullshit on the latest attempt by FWA to bring Craig Thomson down.

jane

January 6. 2013 01:36 AM

Psyclaw

42 Long

There is a superior authority to Peat Marwick ie the HC of A.

In the Air Caledonie case (1984) the HC examined and ruled upon the nature of a "tax".

They identified a number of criteria, the most relevant of which to this discussion is the fact that to be a "tax" an impost must be compulsory and must not be optionally paid.

In the matter of carbon emissions, emitters pay optionally for emitting carbon. They can avoid all or some of the cost by emitting less ie opting to install better/cleaner technology.

Thus what they are paying is not a tax.

Nevertheless neither the MSM nor shock jocks nor the Coalition will ever tell the truth about this. It doesn't fit their songsheet.

Psyclaw

January 6. 2013 07:12 AM

Michael

www.theage.com.au/.../...nable-20130104-2c8rw.html

This is ESSENTIAL reading to understand just how Right wing parliamentarians can abuse their function to continually attack an administration with no other intent than to unseat an executive level of government.

That it is a story about the US Congress merely reiterates how a more centre of power parliamentary system of government such as we have here 'allows' bloodymindedness to tear at an entire country. Its systems, its governance, its survival.

It's a tactic that promises nothing, can deliver nothing, but bloody stagnancy.

Fascinatingly, it's the attack dogs that eventually fail, because their actions lead them to a point where the only solution is to have them put down.

They have nothing to offer but poison-dripping fangs, and that poison dribbling back down their baying throats infects them through and through, until they no longer have politics in their skills-bag, only vicious frustration.

John Boehner is more colorfully quoted at the head of the news article.

In Australia, "go to Hell" covers the same territory.

Michael

January 6. 2013 07:49 AM

Woodypear

Ahhh – the 4.5th (4 1/2th) Estate!   That’s what I’m looking for.  A place where reporters of the MSM and the 5th Estate can engage in constructive discussion (free of hyperbole, insults and overt bias).  Boy, we could all benefit??  We could both perhaps see something that we’re missing?  We could perhaps bring pressure to bear on the government to bring about a model for ‘truth in reporting’ (perhaps based on the Canadian model)?  We could perhaps understand better the ‘livelihood imperative’ that I believe drives many reporters to report the news as their employers would like it reported.  We could perhaps ‘out’ misinformation (or the failure to disclose) to a higher degree?  We could perhaps highlight more clearly where ‘self-interest’ is at play rather than ‘the common good’?  Surely these ideals would have been what PvO would have been espousing to his students?   I think it is great that he is willing to take part in open debate – there needs to be more following  in his footsteps.
Just the ramblings of a frustrated viewer of an uneven playing field.

Woodypear

January 6. 2013 08:35 AM

Ken

Psyclaw

See the following at the LP website re Abbott’s promise to abolish the Carbon Tax.

www.liberal.org.au/our-plan-abolish-carbon-tax

While it doesn’t eliminate the possibility of a carbon price but it does promise to implement his alternative “Direct Action Plan” and to close down the Clean Energy Finance Corporation, and all this from “day one”.

I also like the option of a double dissolution.  I wonder how many people are aware that they may have to go back to the polls if Abbott wins but doesn’t control the Senate.  No mention of negotiating a package with the Senate – just my way or a double dissolution.

Ken

January 6. 2013 09:11 AM

Psyclaw

Ken

That diatribe to which you provided the link is exactly my point.

If you look at what Abbott says, through a core / noncore promise "lens", this is what you see.

1) Eleven specific references to "no carbon tax"

2) Only two  mentions of "direct action"

3) Three references to shutting down the Clean Energy Finance Corp

4) The first sentence "I will repeal the carbon tax"

5) The last sentence "there will be no carbon tax"

There can be no doubt that doing away with the carbon tax is his core promise, so the other non-core stuff is confessable and forgivable if breached.

How easy will it be to shelve the Direct Action "Plan" ....... "you know, aaaah, times change, aaaaah, a few more countries have now moved to trading schemes, aaaaah, you know, but there will be no carbon tax, aaaah, you know, everyone knows that's what the real issue is, aaaah, JG's lie, aaaah, .......(blah, blah, blah,) everyone knows that I would end the carbon tax, aaaah, and,aaaah, you know, aaaah, I have ended it, aaaah, and we now have an ETS, aaaaah, but you know, aaaaah, we no longer have a carbon tax, aaaaah, just as I promised, aaaaah"

He might even have the gall to make such a speech during the campaign.

As Jaycee pointed out on pbxmastragics.com at 6.25am this morning, 80% of the electorate won't understand the nuances at all and blithely accept what Abbott says ie "he said he'd stop the carbon tax and he did". Of course the MSM won't question him deeply about it, nor point out the irony and hypocrisy.

And Turnbull said as much in Qanda, ie that moving immediately to the ETS phase would satisfy Abbott's promise. Even the MSM briefly commented on Turnbull's hint at the time.

Psyclaw

January 6. 2013 09:24 AM

bob macalba

DMW
Alex White has got no heart, what a sad sack he is,

no fight, no 'goolies'.. hes the lion from Wizard of Oz,
his family crest is a picture of a chicken waving a white flag,
with the words 'surrender now' surrounding the chicken.. the mans got no balls..... a big thanks to Andrew Elder for putting him straight,  

bob macalba

January 6. 2013 10:01 AM

Ad astra

Talk Turkey
Congratulations and thanks for your efforts in inviting Peter van Onselen to contribute here should he wish to do so.  He would be welcome, along with any other Fourth Estate journalist, who seeks to engage with those of us in the Fifth Estate.

You elegantly written comment at 2.13 PM sets down the guidelines well.

If we can establish a forum for such inter-Estate dialogue in a milieu free from acrimony and sharp language, one based on an exchange of fact-supported, well-reasoned opinion, the potential for greater understanding is obvious and worthy of pursuit.  The calibre of comments on commercial blog sites based on newspapers is variable.  While some are reasonable, others comprise a high proportion of rants that are not worth the time it would take to read them.  Your proposal TT has the potential to be so much better provided we ourselves do not follow the newspaper pattern of verbal abuse and rant.  The calibre of most commenters here is high.  We ought to be able to make your idea work.

Perhaps though we should not expect any comment from him until we resume normal activities early in February.

Ad astra

January 6. 2013 10:15 AM

Gravel

Ad Astra

If Mr van Olsen does decide to come here, may we could have a separate thread specifically for our debate?

Janice

I went to that site.  They didn't have a full length gel-underlay, so I surfed at bit and found one, but it was $200, which is out of our available funds range at this point in time.  Will have a look next year when we have hopefully built up a bit of a kitty.  Thanks for your help.

Knee High

Still worrying about you and yours, hope everything is okay.

Twitter is all a twitter about a story about our lovely Mr Abbott.  I am amazed that the front page is not full of the Tasmanian fires.  I guess they are just a bit of trivia, compared the magnificent Abbott, who will be the great saviour of Australia, where we will all live a happy healthy and rich lifestyle because of his  benevolence.  Can't wait for the happy happy happy times to come.

Gravel

January 6. 2013 10:19 AM

Ken

Psyclaw

Agree there is plenty of wriggle room (as always) in the official line.  But the promise to implement the Direct Action plan remains an interesting part.  The promise to support photo-voltaic panels on houses will go down well but it raises a few issues.  How will the big power generators react and how will it be done?  Either households sell their electricity back into the grid, or become self-reliant (which may mean rewiring the house).  Either way, there can be a cost (or loss) to the generators/suppliers and electricity prices will go up!!!  But, of course, that is not explained.

The difficulty of getting out of the existing scheme does mean that he is very likely to retain the ETS part.  The carbon tax is only of limited duration in any case, so repealing it is not really a big issue, despite the fact that the LNP is trying to sell it in that way.  I think the Government only needs to re-emphasise the date on which the tax ends and is replaced by the full ETS.

  

Ken

January 6. 2013 10:22 AM

Ad astra

Michael
Thank you for the link to that very good O’Malley article; America the ungovernable, which I have bookmarked.

I was taken by the following paragraphs:

”In April last year two of Washington's most respected non-partisan pundits - Thomas Mann of the liberal-leaning Brookings Institution and Norman Ornstein of the traditionally conservative American Enterprise Institute - joined forces in an attempt to diagnose the political malaise. The result was the book, It's Even Worse Than It Looks: How the American Constitutional System Collided With the New Politics of Extremism.

“In it they argue that America's political system - built as it is around institutional checks and balances - is simply not equipped to deal with aggressive parliamentary style all-out opposition, exactly the sort of politics adopted by the Republican Party after its loss to Barack Obama in 2008.

“The GOP's aggressiveness heightened after it won back control of the house in the mid-term elections of 2010, with many of the newcomers belonging to the Tea Party.

“Since then the party became "an insurgent outlier - ideologically extreme; contemptuous of the inherited social and economic policy regime; scornful of compromise; unpersuaded by conventional understanding of facts, evidence and science; and dismissive of the legitimacy of its political opposition'', they write.”


Read more: www.theage.com.au/.../...nable-20130104-2c8rw.html

The parallels to our Federal politics are striking.  But while the last Congress passed only 200 laws, our Federal Parliament has already passed more than twice that number.

Ad astra

January 6. 2013 10:28 AM

Ad astra

Psyclaw
It’s good to see you back.  I too read Ken’s link to the Liberal Party piece about abolishing the carbon tax, and agree with your appraisal of it.

It reveals that this move is so entrenched in the Coalition strategy that they cannot abandon it without Abbott looking as if re has recanted.  They are stuck with this decaying albatross around their necks, and may find that the public are holding their nose and do not want to be near it.

Ad astra

January 6. 2013 10:38 AM

Ad astra

DMW
Your links to the Alex White and Andrew Elder pieces make an interesting comparison.  White did not give his rationale for his predictions of seat losses for Labor, presumably relying on polls of voting intention that we all know have poor predictive capacity this far out from an election.  I agree with Elder’s view of polls and embrace his optimism.

KHTAGH
Please update us with how things are down your way.

Ad astra

January 6. 2013 11:16 AM

KHTAGH

  AA & all swords folk.

   Things are much better now, virtually no wind so far today, they should be able to make big inroads to containing most fires today, no threat around here now.

  Only major problem now is to find feed for the cattle & sheep, Nigel is up talking to the Mayor today (he owns the local stock & station store)so we might be able to get something for them.

  Again thanks for the comments & best wishes, you can be assured it really did mean a lot to me. As I mentioned to Lyn last night I didn't even think of posting anything on twitter about the situation due to being flat out, now to go & drain the hose & hang it up to dry then roll it up.

  Now I can get back to commenting on the political situation again, once I gather the very rattled brain cells, I gotta say I slept like a comatosed log last night.

  TT
   I'm looking forward to see how PVO interacts with a more intelligent audience here. Good times ahead. I was gobsmacked today to see Peta come out & say how supportive the Whining Wing Nut was with her IVF, SO BLOODY WHAT!!!! (5 times, I wonder who paid for it all too)

   Off to chase some cows.

KHTAGH

January 6. 2013 11:18 AM

DMW

bob macalba @ 9:24 AM
I have no idea whether Alex White is a sad sack however I am sure he has a heart.

Is it possible that in disagreeing with Alex's assessment and opinion you have chosen to shoot the messenger and have missed the message?

Here is my comment (slightly modified) on Andrew Elder's blog:

"Labor at the moment is at about an 80% chance of proving the old adage: Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

Many in Labor, and possibly foremost the Prime Minister are still to unlearn the wrong lessons they learned from the 2001 election. The PM is still in thrall of Howard's 'lie' tying border security and asylum seekers together for one and still holds Howard up as a 'hero' when compared to Abbott. Has she forgotten the electorate rejected Howard in 2007?

The Treasurer has not in any meaningful way exposed the 'fraud' that Costello was a great treasurer and as a result often gives the opposition free kicks and allows many to be conned into believing that the conservatives are better at managing the economy.

Elsewhere (here @ The Sword) I have proposed that the election will not be won or lost in the 'big' states but in the 'small' states and territories with Labor losses being in believe it or not Canberra (the electorate) also Bass, Brand, Lingari and another believe it or not Perth. Denison is an even money bet to go Liberal or Wilkie to retain.

In many ways Labor has wasted the last five years and has not set itself up as the 'naturals' to be the government and in many ways Alex was correct in stating: "... but unless Labor really pulls its finger out in the next few weeks, there is simply not enough time for it to build the on-the-ground campaign infrastructure and volunteer base needed to hold onto all those marginal seats."

I reckon the government has at most five weeks from the first sitting day of the year on the 5th February to turn things marginally in their favour."

Alex in his comment there @ 5:52 PM makes some points that need to be considered carefully:
... I'm glad that so many people are confident that Gillard and Labor will win (I hope Labor does win), but I can't help but wonder that such misplaced optimism will lead to people just keeping on doing the same thing that has gotten us to where we are now.
...
This can be turned around, but not if Labor just keeps doing what it has done for the last 12 months.


Call me a heartless sad sack if you want, however, it wont change the reality on the ground that if the government continues doing it the way it has been doing it it will get the same result which at the moment looks like a loss.

By all means be confident that Labor can win, but temper the confidence with some realism part of which is that it is going to be a very tough gig and some things need to change.

DMW

January 6. 2013 11:55 AM

DMW

Ad @ 10:38 AM,
In what way does this statement by Alex White:
"... but unless Labor really pulls its finger out in the next few weeks, there is simply not enough time for it to build the on-the-ground campaign infrastructure and volunteer base needed to hold onto all those marginal seats."
not offer a rationale even in a 'small way'?

Does this paragraph:
Given that 2013 is an election year, we can expect to see more policies of this type. Hopeless, crass and opportunistic policies that are designed to pass the “Lindsay Test” or to get a good run in the Daily Telegraph. Bad policies will continue — expect more regressive action on refugees. Expect the racist Northern Territory Intervention to continue. Expect the watering down of existing good policy and a race to the bottom for grub for votes or chase headlines.
not give a even a small hint of some of White's thinking?

I agree with some of Elder's thinking and assessments however I always read Andrew's writings remembering his need to prove his long hold contention that Abbott will never be Prime Minister.

DMW

January 6. 2013 12:11 PM

janice

Gravel,
Just checked myself and I believe you missed it somehow Smile  I must admit it took a bit of finding and a fair bit of scrolling down the items.  You will find it by clicking on "bedroom" and scrolling down to the 11th or 12th item.  There is another small cool pad but don't fall for that one as it is only meant to  be inserted inside your pillow case.

janice

January 6. 2013 12:17 PM

TalkTurkey

Folks
I have no idea how WE should use Professor van Onselen's promised presence-to-be. I am thinking about it and I hope you are too. But I know we should appreciate it and use it for Good.  

It promises a very unusual situation - perhaps the first of its kind. (Or perhaps I am kidding myself?) Peter is almost like unto a lamb volunteering to walk and talk with wolves, except that he is no lamb: a reading of his recent Tweets shows him to be quite exceptionally feisty, er, controversial, er well I better not say argumentative because I might get an argument!

But unlike so many of his colleagues he does not close up like a sensitive~weed* the moment he is challenged, (Latika Bourke, on the ABC payroll makes many Tweets which seem very Tony-friendly, but it seems she blocks anyone who criticises her; nor is she amongst her profession an orphan wrt that.) He doesn't block people afa I know but I could be wrong and I could hold him blameless in some cases anyway. I've never blocked anyone yet but I might I suppose, for extremely vexatious people; but not for a full-on argument, that is fair game. I think we are on the same page about that.

Plainly, nor does he, like Abbortt, run from questions: he  stays to defend his own pov, he gets kudos from us for that. I think I'm right in saying that he has on a previous occasion threatened/promised to withdraw from Twitter for good, but he's there anyway.  

From various comments he has made on Twitter it is clear PvO is not happy about the pseudo-anonymity available on the 5th Estate. Well it comes with the territory, it's not much of a counter to kill buttons and mass coverage and big money but it's ours, I think he accepts that, if grumpily.

Swordsfolks if you would care to ask PvO a question or put a concise point to him (he has fairly requested that he not need to spend a great deal of time here) or if you have suggestions as to how to make best use if what time he does spend here, well don't be shy.

He isn't all that complimentary to the likes of people one is likely to meet on Twitter. Let us make him respect those who write here.

I just want to help make us happier about each other's Estate.
But that won't happen, imo, until and unless the standard of reportage and commentary of the MSM in general improves a lot.

And Margo Kingston is there to provide the Then and Now contrasts to back up that opinion.

Peter van Onselen, you are welcome here, perhaps you might be a conduit between our two increasingly-hostile camps.  

*When in doubt, Communicate!*    

*Sensitive~Weed or Sensitive Plant: a plant in NSW/Qld that instantly folds its fern-like leaves at a touch or even if you yell at it!

A Sea~Anemone does a Latika even more charmingly. Check her gravatar. Can you imagine her fur hat and face and all suddenly being sucked in to her neck . . .  Smile
    

TalkTurkey

January 6. 2013 01:09 PM

janice

Talk Turkey,
I have a suggestion that might work.
In order to save a lot of time and maybe angst, perhaps a system could be devised whereby we submit our questions (or comments) through you and/or Ad astra.  We could maybe make a further comment/question should PVOs reply not satisfy??

Just a thought.

janice

January 6. 2013 01:41 PM

bilko

WC said (talk talk talk)or JAW JAW JAW not WAR WAR WAR a good adage to live by, however the Noalition have come out fighting re  a hawk and for a man whose uni thesis was on the dangers of climate change not being addressed or close to that makes him a bigger hypocrite than abbort neither worth capitals in my book.

2013 is a year where we need to be more vigilant and highlight " Bullshit Mountain" sayings at every opportunity.

Having said that shooting down a lib re the NBN (not wanted) and wireless coverage (superior)his points had some satisfaction but did not change his point of view. He now lives in Perth sells Ipads, Iphones etc ( was going to say apples but someone might have thought what does a grocer know)and still feels this way, brainwashed or brain dead I am not sure which, Goebbels would be clapping with glee.

bilko

January 6. 2013 02:38 PM

Michael

Am I already sensing a 'kowtow to PvO' trend here? He's a commentator, a voice.

Just like you.

No more, no less, here.

What he is elsewhere is about the other name on his paycheck.

Michael

January 6. 2013 03:09 PM

2353

Michael,  I understand your concern however I think it is important to hear the response to our questions from a professional commentator (especially as I would imagine there would be some clarification of the responses allowed).  While we all do this in our spare time, the professionals do it for a living and are also entitled to enjoy what they want to do in their spare time (whether it be the Summernats, Summerdayz, Summer of Cricket or Summer Concert Series).

In my professional life I am asked regularly for opinion on issues by friends and relatives.  At times I would rather be sitting here or doing other things that I enjoy doing to get my mind off work.

To an extent, I admire any professional commentator that agrees to respond to questions that may challenge his belief system.  I also admire TT for the negotiations to get him here.  If there is an element of playing by someone elses rules to do that - to a point I can live with that.

2353

January 6. 2013 03:19 PM

42 long

We're all capable of judging. That's why we post here. Quite clearly some people say things that reward them in a certain way (often employment). One could reasonably expect bias in those circumstances and there is precedent also of an approach to politics, that may be seen as self serving. We are all into politics here. Some of us are biased or wishfully thinking or perhaps adding FACTS and deep analysis to the picture. I go for the last two, but it's all grist for the mill.

42 long

January 6. 2013 03:23 PM

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)

Knee High: Relief that you are safe with the fire passed by is very great. Like TT, I had been wondering how the bees would fare in the smoke, but it seems as though you have greater problems now taking care of livestock and feeding them …

TT: I have now caught up with all your posts on the PvO invitation. As with a couple of other commentators it does seem you will need a ‘process’. The suggestions both for separate web page on the site and for gathering prepared questions seems useful ones. I had a question for you really: in your interactions with PvO on Twitter did he at any time state ‘why’ he asked three leftie Twitter uses to come onto his program. Just wondered if you had managed to clarify his own reasoning …

And in general, here are some links to readings that I hope are not too out of date and will have interest for some TPSers:

Six years on, and nothing’s changed  Bushfire Bill
How about this for a possibility? Labor convinces the punters that Carbon pricing is a good thing, is essentially un-repealable (without causing more chaos than it’s worth from something that’s now basically bedded down), that Global Warming is real – which it is, conveniently – and needs to be countered, and that ditching the obsession with Surpluses is not only a good thing as far as outcomes are concerned, but a good thing for the political process, breaking the chain of reflexive calls for a yearly credit balance no matter what. At least if she countenanced this possibility Maley would distinguish herself from the groupthink that passes for “political analysis” nowadays.
pbxmastragics.com/.../

Only in dreams  Peter Wicks (@madwixxy)
We now have this thing called the internet, we should embrace it, we used it to elect members into policy forums, we used it to pre-select a candidate for the City Of Sydney Mayoral Election, we could use it put the decision on social policy to the members surely. Hell, we could even start an online branch or two, imagine people in remote locations having a say without having to drive 200 miles to a branch meeting, or those with disabilities being able to have a say online without the need for assistance. Those who work night shifts would also be able to participate, and single parents who cannot arrange or afford child minding may even appreciate the chance to put an opinion forward. What a way to increase membership… It’s a part of being a progressive party I would have thought.
http://wixxyleaks.com/2013/01/04/only-in-dreams/

Climate change denialism, paedophilia and Fairfax Media  Doug Evans
WELL, Happy New Year. Welcome to 2013. If the last week is anything to go by, the New Year has started exactly as the old year ended, with a mixture of sober recognition of the increasingly sombre reality that confronts us, outrageous distortion of the truth by denialist cartoonist John Spooner, thefrighteningly powerful Andrew Bolt and a disgraceful, but possibly accurate, celebration of victory by the deniers on the blog of supreme deceiver Jo Nova.
www.independentaustralia.net/.../

Ideology and Economics  Paul Krugman
Long ago I stumbled on an analogy that still seems relevant to me: business-cycle macro is to economics in general in something like the way that nuclear bombs (and to some extent, to be fair, nuclear power) are to high-energy physics. I’m sure that very few physicists working on the mysteries of the universe trouble themselves at all thinking about how to make things go boom. Yet the reason the field continues to receive public funding is in large part precisely the fact that once upon a time physicists did, indeed, find a way to make things go boom, and you never know what they might come up with in the future.
krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/.../?smid=tw-share

A Short Primer For Tony Abbott's 'Australians for Honest Politics Trust'  North Coast Voices
Australian Opposition Leader Tony Abbott often talks of the perceived character failings of other politicians. Here is one instance where his own character can be called into question.
[Terrific investigation and summary]
northcoastvoices.blogspot.com.au/.../...botts.html

Power to the people: how Labor can reinvent itself  Bruce Hawker
The British Labour Party's leader is elected by a college comprising MPs, rank-and-file members and unions. In Italy 2.2 million people recently paid €2 ($2.50) each to elect the leader of the Democratic Party. In France more than 2.5 million voters selected the Socialist Party's Presidential candidate. By taking power from the few and giving it to the many Labor can reform itself and guarantee its long-term future.
www.smh.com.au/.../...t-itself-20130104-2c8s9.html

I feel like a million dollars, then sex rears its ugly head  Ann Summers
As the figures make clear, the gender pay gap is a national scandal. It amounts to a gender tax, with women making a disproportionate contribution to the national economy. (And that's on top of having the kids and doing most of the housework!)

It is often pointed out that if Australian women's workforce participation was at the same level as men's (79.7 per in cent instead of the current 65.3 per cent) it would add around 13 per cent to GDP.
www.smh.com.au/.../...gly-head-20130104-2c8sd.html

Bad sports  David Horton
… tell me that in the world of 2013 we should be treating and glamourising guns as sporting equipment and not deadly weapons whose use should be reduced to a minimum. There is nothing sporting about shooting. We shouldn’t be treating as normal the idea of possessing and using guns which kill tens of thousands of people every year and millions of animals.
So we need some new games? How about some based on firefighting, tree planting, rescuing sea turtles and seabirds, collecting litter, replanting sand dunes, conservation farming, solar-powered vehicles, public health activities?
http://davidhortonsblog.com/2013/01/06/bad-sports/

Is Google Like Gas or Like Steel? Bruce Brown & Alan Davidson
AFTER a two-year investigation, the Federal Trade Commission concluded this week that Google’s search practices did not violate antitrust law. Those who wanted to see an epic battle like the one the government fought with Microsoft in the 1990s were sorely disappointed. But the analogy to the browser war of the Web’s early days was never the right one. It failed to capture the dangers free speech would have faced if regulators had agreed with Google’s critics.
www.nytimes.com/.../...like-gas-or-like-steel.html

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)

January 6. 2013 03:24 PM

Ken

DMW

going back to your earlier post about the election and seats.

The ALP holds 8 seats with a margin of less than 2% - 4 in NSW, 3 in VIC and 1 in QLD.  The Coalition holds 10 seats by less than 2% - 3 in VIC, 3 in QLD, 1 in NSW, 1 in SA, 1 in WA and 1 NT.

NSW is a worry for the ALP but the vote in VIC is still strong - so could lose 3-4 in NSW but pick up 2-3 in VIC.  ALP could also pick up QLD seats with the help of the New-man.  ALP may also pick SA seat.

Just a broad brush approach and local factors can also pay an influence.  But as long as the vote becomes close(r) as the election approaches, there is an opportunity to pick up seats.  And if Katter's party splits the conservative vote in some electorates it may change the order in which candidates are eliminated, which creates all sorts of strange possibilities.  As always, the preferences deals will be crucial.

Ken

January 6. 2013 03:32 PM

Alex White

Unfortunately, Andrew's response to my "2013" post is done without him understanding any of the context of my previous posts on the election, campaigning, Abbott, etc.

Last year I spent 3 months working for Obama in Massachusetts and New Hampshire. I've seen how an effective campaign works first hand. I've worked on ALP election campaigns in marginal and safe seats since 2004 (state and federal). I've spoken to senior ALP campaign officials.

My view is that unless the ALP makes some drastic changes and adopts serious community campaigning, then it is unlikely to win.

Abbott and the Libs need to achieve only a 1% swing away from Labor and to the Libs to win. They are likely to win Lynne and New England. Even if Labor held all of its current seats, the loss of these two Independents would likely result in an Abbott government.

Which seats can Labor win? How? I've written extensively on what I believe needs to be done.

Unfortunately, Labor can't win just through wishful thinking.

Alex White

January 6. 2013 03:53 PM

DMW

Hi Alex,
welcome to the Sword and thanks for providing some 'context' BUT a word to the wise 'context' is something only main stream media types are able to provide. Or at least that is what they keep telling me Tong

DMW

January 6. 2013 04:15 PM

DMW

Hi Ken,
I have no 'good' readings on what is happening on the eastern seaboard and many of the people I have spoken to are in a I just don't know state of mind.

It is quite possible that we may see a bit of musical chairs with each side 'swapping' two or three seats.

Queensland is, well Queensland and the Katter factor may be enough to see some Lib and maybe a Labor seat go to them.

We will start to get a better picture when candidates are finalised and I am sure that will give us a good idea of what to expect in some of the marginals when we see the calibre of the candidates.

While I remain hopeful, like Alex has commented above, ... unless the ALP makes some drastic changes and adopts serious community campaigning,

DMW

January 6. 2013 04:44 PM

TalkTurkey

Michael
There's only one person on this site to whom I would kowtow, and he never makes me, and I wouldn't write on his site if he were the kind of person that wanted  me to... I am noone's sycophant, but I will defend PvO's right to respect, for agreeing to enter this hostile territory, especially since it comes as a result of my messages. After all I have declined, for the time being at least, his offer/challenge to enter his, though that's different. I won't go into how but it is.

You may notice that I promise him no easy ride. No favours, but no nastiness. I don't for a moment think anyone here will transgress that. I also make clear that he has only the same rights as anyone else to write here - but that is universal.

Furthermore if you saw the Twitterstream that refers to all this you would know that it is more by needling PvO out of his own comfort zone (as a crow uses a cactus spine to winkle a grub from a log, pardon the metaphor Peter!) than by stroking him. And I didn't beg him to come, I invited him in response to his prior offer for 3 of us to come on his show. And he has been courteous, if grumpy, in taking up the offer.

I can hardly imagine that any truehearted Swordie would soft-soap anyone here: you might notice that while I write *J*U*L*I*A*s name in lights because I think she's wonderful, I am also critical of her comments re Assange even if I'm in a minority of one here. I don't toady to anyone, and I don't anticipate anyone else will here neither.

You Michael have the same rights too to say what you will to PvO. (Though I'm a bit surprised by what you did just say, to no-one in particular, but I guess it must mean me.)

If there is anyone I am especially eager to please here, it isn't Peter van Onselen, and it isn't me. It isn't even Ad astra though I do want to please him. It is The Political Sword, for and on behalf of the good of the People, and in the end, our Planet. What else?

Haven't heard from any of the concerned people today on Twitter anyway. I keep inviting them but they all seem shy. GreensBoroughGrowler (#1 of Us3) though has said he'd be happy to go on the PvO show, don't know about Us3 #2 Thefinnigans (beloved of Lyn! Smile) but he might ... Oh and I know someone from here who would overfill my shoes and who would be prepared to go on instead of me.

So PvO might still get his show, but for now I'm No.  

On the other hand it is anyway a Good Thing to be thinking about the issues here. This is a true new frontier, with big issues of Trust and Truth and Freedom of Expression involved.

Just on that: Peter: re anonymity... Yes we know your ID, you don't know some of ours. That can sound unfair. But we are individuals, with no masters and no reason to write other than Truth as we see it. You and the relatively few (compared to Us) public journalists are backed by dozens of unseen co-workers, hundreds of  faceless powerful shareholders, and one evil overlord in Rupert Murdoch, to whom you might as well nearly all be indentured labour.

I think nowhere in any vaguley democratic country in the world is Media ownership so concentrated. But I know you must know that.

I'll leave it at that for now.

    

  

TalkTurkey

January 6. 2013 04:47 PM

LadyInRed

Hi Alex,

I read The Drum: It’s the personal contact, stupid
. I am very interested in your experience, particulary the idea of having that conversation with voters. What is your opinion of an ALP candiate going up against someone in a safe LNP seat in Qld?

LadyInRed

January 6. 2013 04:50 PM

TalkTurkey

"vaguley democratic countries" as in  my last post
are ones run by women with balls
From (vagina+goolies)  

TalkTurkey

January 6. 2013 05:03 PM

Psyclaw


Regarding the election, here is my view, a copy of my post yesterday @andrewelders:

I'm with you AE.

For 2 years I've been saying that the premature speculators about this coming election result have ignored one critical issue. The vote will be preceded by a campaign.

Abbott will have to do something he has fled from for the past 2 years ...... answer sustained questioning about his policies and himself. The news grabs of a brief mantra repeated thrice that he has used exclusively will not suffice in a campaign.

I won't even bother to list the many occasions JG has exposed herself to rigorous questioning and has come through with flying colours.

And one key bit of bullshit AE did not list was the hallucination that Abbott "nearly got them home" in 2010. The fact is that they failed because of him.

Anyone who thinks that Abbott-the weight-in-the-coalition's-saddle-bags is now not an exponentially heavier handicap than in 2010, as a result of his conduct since, is dreamin.


For my money, the government is doing just fine at the moment, steady as she goes, and quietly gaining popularity. And over the past three months there have been numerous examples of writers in the OM begrudgingly giving some kudos to the government and some  criticism of Abbott. This is altogether different to the preceding 18 months.

There is little doubt that the Coalition's internal polling has seriously displeased them. Witness the trotting out of Mrs Abbott. Witness today's trotting out of Credlin herself, several pages in all the News rags attesting to Abbott's sensitivity and empathy regarding female and female issues.

Credlin says that Abbott is sensitive because "he allowed me to keep my daily IVF medicines in his minibar fridge". She attests to his sensitivity in keeping private his knowledge that she was on IVF. And what is she doing with this "private info" today ..... plastering it all over the media.

As one pbxmastragics commenter said today, "this is not just desperation .... they have given up"   ...... clearly they are now prepared to pay the cost of gross embarrassment as they enter the last throes of trying to make Abbott seem human.

No drastic changes are needed, just the continuation of hard policy work on the three or four important areas that have growing public support.

And who knows how Ashbygate will develop when parliament returns ...... there might even be an electoral bonus there.

Psyclaw

January 6. 2013 05:09 PM

LadyInRed

TT

I would be happy to engage with PvO. I have always been treated with respect on this site. I can't think of a single time when someone has been rude to me. There has been some occasions when people have tried to spoil a conversation, but that is rare. So I think PvO can rest assured he will be treated with respect.....well certainly I will.

LadyInRed

January 6. 2013 05:16 PM

Gravel

Knee High

Glad you had a good nights sleep.  Now I will stop worrying about you and fires. Smile

Janice

Dah, thanks for that I'll find your link again and go further down the page. Embarassed

Gravel

January 6. 2013 05:44 PM

DMW

psyclaw,
I admire your optimism.

Maybe you could use your guitar to exhibit your 'faith' by playing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFSm6x2fIZI

DMW

January 6. 2013 06:12 PM

DMW

Another point of view on today's News Ltd papers 'exclusive' two page spread:

Attacking what you support  Gordon @ Gordon'sThoughts
Today in the Sunday News Limited papers there’s a story by Samantha Maiden on Tony Abbott supporting his chief of staff Peta Credlin through IVF treatments.

The emotional triggers in the story are obvious given Tony Abbott made a big name for himself when he was the Health Minister in opposing access to the abortion drug RU486 and his positions on various issues involving the right to life and what families value are seen to be heavily influenced by his Catholicism and the influence of Cardinal George Pell, B.A Santamaria and many others.

gordonsthoughts.wordpress.com/.../

Gordon makes some good points and some sense

DMW

January 6. 2013 06:44 PM

Ken

psyclaw re election

I tend to agree.  It may be optimistic but I think there are good reasons for optimism, such as those you mention.

Plus as I have pointed out previously the campaign can often lead to a 2-3% swing to the incumbent - a result of people, when forced to make a decision rather than just give an opinion, going with "the devil they know".  And it is not as though we have to make 20-30% of people change their opinion/vote.  If only 2-3% start having doubts about Abbott, that can be enough.  And I think enough is starting to be said about Abbott, and there are enough issues floating about, that when it comes to the crunch (actually casting a ballot)that 2-3% is a high possibility.

As always in elections, it is how this translates into seats that still be a problem

Ken

January 6. 2013 07:04 PM

Jason

DMW,
   I said at Gordons site "Gordon If Abbott won’t provide any policies to scrutinize, then we scrutinize what we can: his character.I couldn't give a toss if “Peta’s” husband fires blanks or she’s left her run at being a mother to late. Not mine or the countries problem!"

Gordon might think we are all being conned!Perhaps if Abbott started doing long form interviews on shows such as Insiders, 730 report Lateline and was to go on Q&A like the PM does, there would be no need to wheel out the wife kids and now the chief of staff to make him look human.
Internal party polling must be fairly ordinary for this stunt! today

Jason

January 6. 2013 07:44 PM

42 long

  He's got so much help to make him look like a "nice" person who is the friend of women.
The weak minded might fall for it. To the analytical two things stand out. There must be a "NEED" for this to happen. Well the majority of women don't like this person. I'm a bit surprised many men do. Shit happens is a quotable quote.
  The second aspect of this is that there is every chance that it will backfire. The presumption that people will believe this contrived stuff is a big insult to the voters. There's a lot of "real" stuff on the net that shows otherwise, about this person.

42 long

January 6. 2013 08:01 PM

Psyclaw

Jason

"Internal party polling must be fairly ordinary for this stunt! today"

You got it in one Jason. And it's confirmed by Abbott's body language over the past 2 months or so.


DMW

As to Gordon'sthoughts, I agree totally with the comments there from FS and Leroy. As at 7.30 I have not seen/heard any government spokesperson being sucked into a fight by Maiden's crap about Credlin. His piece is all strawman. And the view across the blogosphere about it is  pervasively humourous and of ridicule.

Abbott's desperation to present himself as a friend of females (note that he proudly holds out that his wife is a woman, his mother is a woman, and his daughters are women) by directly involving his family and now Credlin's "private" matters has dug his hole so much deeper.

To observe this, to comment on it, and to laugh at it is not to be "sucked in" as Gordon claims.

Bet you wern't one of PJK's true believers when the sweetest victory of all occurred in 1993. I was. And I'm sure I'll get a repeat dose later this year.

Here's a couple of your faves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC57rpO8ChA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPFGWVKXxm0

Psyclaw

January 6. 2013 08:12 PM

DMW

Hi Jason,
fair comment and yes given Abbott's 'abits in some ways we don't have much to go on.

I am more than suspecting, and, I may be imagining, but I am starting to see some patterns that are similar to what Gordon has suggested.

Take the 'supposed' proposal that Queensland abolish compulsory voting. A classic fly a kite that will get the progressives screaming 'blue murder' while the other stuff flies under the radar.

There are simple reasons why Newman will not seriously consider voluntary voting none the least the cost in money and manpower in 'getting out the vote'. It was a diversion.

In a different but strangely similar way the Credlin 'profile' may well have been as much about getting the progressives in a tizz about 'nothing' so as to distract from 'the real battle'.

We are in for a weird and possibly wonderful ride as this election year unfolds and the dirty tricks may being swapped for strange tricks.

DMW

January 6. 2013 08:41 PM

Psyclaw

DMW

"In a different but strangely similar way the Credlin 'profile' may well have been as much about getting the progressives in a tizz about 'nothing' so as to distract from 'the real battle'."

It didn't get the government in a tizz, nor any "progressive" commenters.

Maybe you could refer us to a few examples where "a tizz" occurred.

My reading of it is that it has nothing to do with creating a diversion, and has everything to do with attempting to lower the current "we despise Abbott" rating which is 60 something %.

The Coalition's confidence that they can gain government despite the electorate's widespread disdain for their leader is being sorely tested right now.

Psyclaw

January 6. 2013 09:12 PM

Ad astra

KHTAGH
I’m glad to see the fires are not as threatening as they were.  Please keep safe.

Ad astra

January 6. 2013 09:24 PM

DMW

Psyclaw @ 8:01 PM
Bet you wern't one of PJK's true believers when the sweetest victory of all occurred in 1993.

Uh-huh, assumptions are dangerous things as you would well know psyclaw.

Oh and by the way psyclaw where was it again that you campaigned in 1993 and for that matter 1996?

& @ 8:41 PM
many in the twitterverse got into quite a 'tizz' including tweets such as this:
LynLinking ‏@lynlinking
@geeksrulz Hi Geeks key Credlin IVF google web search 1080 entries looks like every suburban paper, every country paper every major paperSmile

and as is often the case many 'slammed' the author of the article.

DMW

January 6. 2013 09:42 PM

TalkTurkey


Twitter version

U call my bossTony a phony~A Misogynist! That's not myTony~He's so ridgy-didg~I keep my eggs in his fridge!~U reckon that don't get im bony!

Sword version

You call my boss Tony a phony?
A misogynist! That's not my Tony!
He's so ridgy-didge
I keep my eggs in his fridge!
You reckon that don't get him bony!

TalkTurkey

January 6. 2013 09:55 PM

KHTAGH

Gravel

  Although I'm out of any danger the fire is still going, 35 miles away, & unfortunately they mentioned on the news that up to 100 people are missing. I fear grim days ahead. Still smoke on the air, if we get strong winds again & it won't stop till it hits the coast somewhere. Being in the roaring 40's there is a good chance of that happening.


Psyclaw

   I like what you have said & I think you have hit the nail on the head, TA is now peeing in the family pool.

KHTAGH

January 6. 2013 10:14 PM

uriah

Psyclaw,Jason and Ken are all spot on-Libs internal polling is on the slide especially after the family discussions around the BBQ at chrissy.They are getting towards panic mode while PMJG looks cool,composed and confident.She has spent the last 2yrs setting a platform for success,while having everthing including the kitchen sink thrown at her and not only is she still standing but is thriving.The coalition have no idea how to defeat this PM beyond resorting to smear.The Australian electorate see through this pathetic tactic and will vote accordingly.In fact voters are warming to PMJG for her courage,work ethic and resilience,she is one tough lady.
I agree with you Ad,that Labor has powerful forces pitted against them but Labor lead by Julia Gillard are not without their own resources,in the lead up to election 2013.Still we should be vigilant and win the arguement of ideas about what type of society we choose to live in.

uriah

January 6. 2013 10:26 PM

TalkTurkey

I'm posting this by the remarkable Margo Kingston in its entirety.

Australians For Honest Politics
Margo Kingston: My welcome to Twitter.

By Margo Kingston
Source: New Matilda
December 11, 2012

I blame the ABC for my initiation to Twitter. Or rather, I thank them, because the experience has been refreshing for this disillusioned ex-journo and long-time internet refugee.

I happened to be watching ABC News 24 when Tony Abbott again confronted Julia Gillard about her role in the AWU affair on the last day of sittings for 2012. He was repeating his sole claim, that she was a criminal for allegedly misleading a Western Australian government body by letter. It was a question of character, he said. She was unfit for office. However, he didn’t have the letter in question, so there was no evidence for his claim.

I felt nonplussed, because in 2003, 2004 and 2007 I had published strong evidence that Abbott had wilfully and materially misled the Australian Electoral Commission — also a crime.

He’d done that to avoid disclosing donors to his very own “slush fund” — the “Australians for Honest Politics Trust” — money from which was used to pursue the case against Pauline Hanson for electoral fraud. The AEC had let him get away with it through inaction and a sustained cover up. He’d also repeatedly lied to the media, which, I wrote in 2003, ensured he could never be prime minister. Yet only my former colleague Mike Seccombe, writing in the Global Mail, had mentioned the matter during Abbott’s pursuit of Gillard.

So I posted a comment on my dormant Twitter account and asked the ABC’s op-ed site, The Drum, if they’d like a piece on the subject. They said yes but when they got it they said no, so I returned to Twitter to find a publisher.

Since then it’s been groundhog day for me, except that compared to the citizen journalism I did with readers of the Sydney Morning Herald’s Webdiary from 2000 to 2005, the technology has made it so much quicker and easier! Once Independent Australia published my piece, the King’s Tribune reported the timeline of the Abbott slush saga. Twitter user @geeksrulz then created a repository for this citizen journalism project called Australians for Honest Politics, @otiose94 created a blog, and barrister Ross Bowler (@BowlerBarrister) created a Storify to archive key documents and record developments.

Several “curator” Twitter users conducted lightning fast research to unearth all relevant material, and others emailed or tweeted the AEC to find out what it did about Abbott’smisleading letter. On Twitter there seems to be a passion for getting and preserving the facts, and in independent media the youthful talent, energy and commitment to truth that makes me believe journalism has a bright future.

This is what I’ve done so far:


1. Latest tweet to AEC 4 December (unanswered): “@AusElectoralCom I’ll try again — When you learned in 2003 that Abbott had misled you in 1998 did you refer the matter to the police?

2. FOI to AEC about what action it took when it discovered Abbott had misled it.

3. Twitter question to Abbott 6 December (unanswered): “@TonyAbbottMHR In view of your recent commitment to openness re slush funds, will you now name donors to yourAFHP trust?”

I am grateful to Penguin for permitting New Matilda to publish online the key chapters of Still Not Happy, John (2007), that detail the evidence that Abbott misled the AEC, avoided transparency concerning the donors to his slush fund, and repeatedly lied to the Australian people.

This is a question of the character of the alternative prime minister of Australia. As a matter of fairness and public interest I believe it should be pursued as strongly as the case against Julia Gillard has been on the AWU slush fund.

Read the first edited extract from Still Not Happy, John here.

TalkTurkey

January 6. 2013 11:54 PM

Psyclaw

DMW

"Uh-huh, assumptions are dangerous things as you would well know psyclaw."


Then say I'm wrong DMW and that you were one of us that PJK was referring to in his victory speech. Tell me you weren't like so many other supporters wringing your hands that night saying "we'll all be rooned." Tell me you spent the campaign and the months before it talking PJK up, and not down.

I was at a function with about 40 others on that night. The vast majority were supposedly ALP supporters and all bar two of us spent the evening talking PJK's chances down.

If you care to tell me these things, I will be proud of you, and become hopeful that you might be able to repeat that optimism this time.

As I see it, the premature speculators have been calling Abbott the winner of this Melbourne Cup 2 miler election since they passed the start the first time round as he bolted 20 lengths ahead. I guess once or twice in a hundred years or more, the bolter might even have won. But by and large in keenly contested staying races, the winner doesn't make the conquering run till much closer to home ..... a gradual wearing down of the field.

And to keep the racing analogy, as every bookie knows, class usually beats arse.

Line up the ALP's top ten policies and contrast them with the opposition's. Do likewise with the respective front benches. Also compare the two leaders' abilities and recent experience in performing in the electronic media explaining their positions in sentences of more than 3 or 4 words under sustained questioning, something that they will inevitably have to do in the campaign. A level of realistic optimism seeps over most who do this analysis.

It's evidence such as that, that I get my optimism from. The slowly improving government position over the past 6 months and the corresponding decrease in the coalition's (and especially Abbott's) momentum suggests that the classier mare has begun her move and the bolter gelding is running out of steam before our very eyes.

As to Credlin, my viewing of the twitterverse and such examples as these below tells me that few are distracted from the main game ..... the majority are just acknowledging a joke and having a laugh.

Ben Pobjie ‏@benpobjie
In today's Herald Sun Peta Credlin risks her career by revealing Tony Abbott's secret wonderful side

Marieke Hardy ‏@mariekehardy
I FEEL SO RELAXED NOW ABOUT TONY 'LADIES, FORM AN ORDERLY QUEUE' ABBOTT BEING PRIME MINISTER!! THANKS PETA CREDLIN AND THE HERALD SUN!!!

People Skills ‏@people_skills
So Peta Credlin having IVF means that Tony Abbott isn't sexist. Right. Got it. #auspol

Kym Ralley ‏@kralley
@bazarazzi Tony is really cacking himself Smile I love it Smile

Psyclaw

January 7. 2013 01:52 AM

DMW

psyclaw,
unlike you I did not spend the 1993 election night at any function, glittering or otherwise, rather, I rested after a long day much the same as I did in 1996.

I had no need or desire then to wring my hands in despair in much the same way that I have no need or desire to wring my hand in despair now.

My optimism and enthusiasm in 1996 was 'out of tune' with the vast majority of the electorate but still I did not despair even though the observations I made in 1978 on first meeting Mr Howard later came to pass.

My hope for the election outcome does not cloud out the possibility of a different result.

I stand by the observation made on Andrew Elder's blog and then here @ 11:18 AM Labor at the moment is at about an 80% chance of proving the old adage: Oppositions don't win elections, governments lose them.

This government will lose the upcoming election if it keeps doing what it has been doing for the most of the time it has been in office which I will over simplify and summarise as letting others set the agenda and provide the standards against which it measured.

As one piece of 'evidence' of what I am suggesting I direct you toward this:

The Geez Wayne You've Had Five Years To Set The Agenda Award: Wayne Swan
The worst political argument disguised as economics is the view that a budget surplus in any way signifies good management of the economy. This view began back in the 1980s under Paul Keating and went into overdrive under Peter Costello.

A budget deficit or surplus is never an end in itself. Wayne Swan declaring in his 2010-11 speech that he would deliver a budget surplus "in three years, three years ahead of schedule" was a truly dopey statement - not because a treasurer shouldn't aim for such a thing, but because it reinforced the furphy that a surplus was the pass or fail of economic management.

The "surplus is always good" line leads to idiotic statements such as those by Chris Pyne last week when he said "if there had been a Coalition government for the last five years... I think most people accept that we would have had continuing surpluses".

So lacking in logic was this line that it didn't last the day out before he was telling Fairfax's Lenore Taylor that he didn't mean it literally. It is always good to discuss economic policy in a mythical sense.

But while it would be easy to award this to Pyne, the real winner is Wayne Swan who has had five years to change the debate and to point out there are a lot more real things - such as employment, inflation and productivity that matter a hell of a lot more than some childish boast about delivering a surplus.

Not only did Swan not try to change the debate, his concern about the word "deficit" prior to the GFC and his hurried desire to get back to a surplus since 2010 has actually reinforced in voters' minds that Costello's view was right.

Dumb economics and dumb politics all in one neat package.


Prizes for politics: the best of 2012 Greg Jericho @TheDrum
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4436028.html

DMW

January 7. 2013 07:09 AM

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)

Morning.

Just a bit of Twitter-sourced reading:

Asher Wolf ‏@Asher_Wolf
Australian Indigenous children are incarcerated at 30 times the national average www.theaustralian.com.au/.../story-fn9hm1pm-1226547889340

wendy_harmer ‏@wendy_harmer
The cherry on the Mummy Agenda. Thanks Mrs Woog. Loving your fruitbowl today! @Woogsworld @JuliaGillardhttp://thehoopla.com.au/cherry-mummy-agenda/

John Pratt ‏@Jackthelad1947
Empathy & #ClimateChange #auspol #climatewww.romankrznaric.com/.../...Change%20Krznaric.pdf

John Pratt ‏@Jackthelad1947
"2012: year weather turned dangerous" - http://tpt.to/a34HbrB  -#ClimateChange #auspol unless you take climate seriously get out of the way.

visivoz ‏@visivoz
SA Opposition Leader, Isobel Redmond flags focus shift from public transport to cars. Oh no!!! www.adelaidenow.com.au/.../story-e6frea83-1226548171803

David Marler ‏@Qldaah
#auspol #qldpol #Newmania "Dredge Spoil To Be Dumped In Great Barrier Reef Waters" - http://ht.ly/gyTkq

AshbyEnnquiryNow ‏@PolAnimalAus
Interview: Julia Gillard www.abc.net.au/.../4453850 … @abcnews great interview, why can’t Press Gallery be as polite, professional as the sports ppl [interview 5th January 2013]

Ærchiearchive ‏@archiearchive
Tonight the Bloke in the Pub talks about Fires, Gina and Kevin Andrews. http://wp.me/p1gCe-6VH

Barry Tucker  ‏@btckr
Just added part of Mr Abbott's numerology chart to http://bit.ly/W5FwjM  Born UK, English dad, Aussie mum. Wonder if he's an Oz citizen ? !

Mulgabob ‏@mulgabob
@JoeHockey @TonyAbbottMHR With the temperature out here in the forty's I would like to congratulate the government for the insulation Batts

David Donovan ‏@davrosz
@samanthamaiden How much did the Liberal Party pay you to republish their flowery press release about Peta and Tony?www.heraldsun.com.au/.../story-e6frf7jo-1226548140341

‏@mansillo
@_JohnTaylor_ the swing to the LNP if compulsory voting were abolished is 5.2% twitter.com/mansillo/status/286709565976883200 … #auspol Source: Aust Electoral Survey twitter.com/.../1

@JustJen64
#auspol #GAMEON People need to research AFTER THE HEADLINES.. research and stop allowing yourself to be MANIPULATED twitter.com/.../1

les victor ‏@otiose94
Campbell ‘Hanging Chads’ Newman’s Excellent Adventurehttp://zite.to/136CgvI  via @zite #auspol #qldpol

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)

January 7. 2013 08:21 AM

Gravel

Knee High

I hadn't heard about the missing people until after I sent the post to you.  I am still stressing about the fires, but don't have to stress about you as well. Smile  We lived in Fingal for six years, and went to Bicheno many a time for drives.  The fires are still going there and it must be horrible for them.  I feel for everyone that have lost everything, but more so for the people who have lost their lives. Tasmania will have a lot of healing to do after this.  I know Tasmanians are made of strong stuff, the pulled together after the Port Arthur shootings.  It is unfortunately the first thing I think of when Tassie is mentioned.

It is good the the Fed Government have moved early with assistance, and Julia is going there today.  I don't know whether it will help anyone, but I'm sure Labor are working on setting something up like they did in Victoria, I can't remember the name of it, but Christine Nixon was in charge, and helped a lot of people, especially when fighting the Insurance company's and stuff.

Gravel

January 7. 2013 08:31 AM

2353

Gravel,

The Feds also assisted greatly after the Queensland Flooding/Cyclone Yasi in early 2011.  If you have flood coverage on your house insurance it is probably due to the actions of the Feds "helping" the insurance companies get over their ideological objection to it's inclusion post the 2011 Brisbane flood.

2353

January 7. 2013 08:33 AM

bob macalba

DMW
ie  Alex White
will shoot down any messenger i dont agree with..i agree with Ad when he noted... White did not give his rationale for his predictions of seat losses for Labor, presumably relying on polls of voting intention that we all know have poor predictive capacity this far out from an election.  I agree with Elder’s view of polls and embrace his optimism.
wear my labor supporters tag as a badge of honor and will never ever take a backward step, its in my DNA,
any naysayer who wants to chance his hand with a set of predictions 10 months out from the election is fair game as far as im concerned,  ANYBODY who attempts to piss in my ear then tells me its raining will have to chance my biased scorn.
  dems ma rools an thas ow a play,
cheers

bob macalba

January 7. 2013 09:06 AM

Per Ardua

DMW
“My optimism and enthusiasm in 1996 was 'out of tune' with the vast majority of the electorate but still I did not despair even though the observations I made in 1978 on first meeting Mr Howard later came to pass.”

It appears that you move in a more elevated political plane than some of us mere commenters/lurkers. Given as much, together with your constant affectation of ambiguity/bemusement with the performance of this government, I can recommend a great opportunity for you to help to put right its perceived shortcomings.
Our erstwhile do nothing Senator Garry Humphries is to face a challenge in the upcoming election from Simon Sheik representing the Greens.  Wouldn’t a three way challenge be exciting with your good self as taking him on as an independent, I’m sure you would do well.  (Smiley thingy).  Seriously though, are you really bemused or just hoping for a Labor defeat?
Another serious question if I may, does one really need to campaign for an election to confirm his/her support for a party of choice?
“Oh and by the way psyclaw where was it again that you campaigned in 1993 and for that matter 1996?”
Cheers

Per Ardua

January 7. 2013 09:17 AM

Ken

psyclaw  DMW

I am optimistic and think there is a realistic chance of the Government getting a swing to it of around 3-4% during the election campaign.  So polls favouring the LNP of up to 53-47 going into the campaign may still be manageable.

But I do agree with DMW that the Government has to get onto the front foot.  I have long thought that they spend too much time reacting to the LNP's agenda and in some of my previous comments have raised my doubts about the quality of the political "advice" they are getting.  Hopefully, the discrediting of the NSW Right will help reduce some of the worst political advice.

They have an uncanny ability to shoot themselves in the foot almost everytime things are looking better.  The most recent example is Macklin's comment.  Despite all the reasoning explaining it, it goes down like a lead balloon in the electorate.  I do have doubts about the quality of some of the Ministers but less than 12 months out from an election, it is almost too late to make changes - the last chance for change is now, during the recess, just before Parliament resumes - after that it starts to look like panic.

Ken

January 7. 2013 10:20 AM

LadyInRed

Good on Tony for supporting his chief of staff through IVF treatment. Not many employers these days wouldn't, so he is no maverick.
However, if this is an attempt to show Abbott as being sensitive to womens issues, or an attempt to soften him in the eyes of women, then it misses the mark. The problem woman have with him, is the way he has treated the Prime Minister in parliament and during the whole time that he has been LOTO. His remarks have been offensive, disrespectful and down right sexist, his use of the term illigitimate is disgusting, and I doubt most women will ever forgive him for standing in front of the 'ditch the witch' signs, he did that in full knowledge of what it meant. When his guard is down it is quite obvious that he thinks woman should raise the kids, look after the home, he is not against women working, he just feels that we are not up to some of the more 'important roles' because our temperament and the fact that we are women means we are not up to it. Does he have a problem with women, NO, does he have a problem with women in power, YES. Does he feel the church and men in general know what is best for women, in that they should be home makers, YES. Has he changed? I think he will be trying very hard to be sensitive, but his religious upbringing, and deep seated beliefs will always hold him back.

LadyInRed

January 7. 2013 10:21 AM

Ken

KHTAGH

From my experience in 2003, these days can still be unsettling.  One knows the immediate danger is passed but the fire is still burning and it only takes a few more hot days, a change of wind direction, and the threat can return (but usually not quite as bad as the original threat owing to the reduction in fuel from the original burn).  But there is stil the need to remain alert, so my thoughts are with you until this is finally put to bed.

Ken

January 7. 2013 10:28 AM

bob macalba

Janet.. cheers, luv yer links

TT..
He's  so ridgy-didge
I keep my eggs in his fridge  .......brilliant, best line of the year..hee hee hee

bob macalba

January 7. 2013 10:29 AM

Psyclaw

Ken

"They have an uncanny ability to shoot themselves in the foot almost everytime things are looking better.  The most recent example is Macklin's comment.  Despite all the reasoning explaining it, it goes down like a lead balloon in the electorate."

This is true. Macklin's falling for a gotcha has so far got far greater coverage than Justice Rares damning judgement that the Ashby matter was a set up by a  yet-to-be-identified cabal of LNPers to get Slipper and the government by abusing the court process.

This leads us back to the MSM.

So we have two electoral wildcards both with great potential to assist the government:

1) Will the MSM continue it's carte blanche, unquestioning, un-analysing, uncritical support to Abbott right up to the election and throughout the campaign?

There have been some signs in recent weeks from journalists from both ragsheet companies that it may not do so.

2) What role will the social media play this time?

There have been exponential developments in the use of this medium since August 2010. Consider this with the proposed automatic registration on the electoral role, and the propensity of the "youth" vote to be progressive rather than conservative.

These two matters, along with much wider evidence I alluded to in my comments @5.03pm and 11.45pm yesterday would seem to satisfy the gratuitous advice given elsewhere to "be confident that Labor can win, but temper the confidence with some realism "


Psyclaw

January 7. 2013 10:33 AM

LadyInRed

Thanks Jan for the links. Luv the one about the roof batts. Too true how many households must be just that much cooler and using less energy because of them? Now wouldn't it be nice if the MSM did a fluff piece on that?

Seriously though it would be interesting to find out the stats on the impact of the ceiling batts initiative in heating and cooling our homes.

LadyInRed

January 7. 2013 11:00 AM

DMW

From the Newspapers ...
   What the front pages are saying
via Front Pages Today [/i] - http://goo.gl/enTjx

The Australian - http://goo.gl/3bnTO
Black justice: bun theft worth a year’s jail
Australia heads UN sanctions strategy

The Sydney Morning Herald - http://goo.gl/1kOHj
Obeid link to Tigers under the spotlight
Good looks bring a handsome return – $32,000 a year

The Daily Telegraph - http://goo.gl/JXc7d
100 MISSING IN INFERNO
Warnie loses it

The Age - http://goo.gl/j6tKW
Gay men haunted by old convictions
Climate threat to state assets

The Herald Sun - http://goo.gl/0wNCf
GRIM SEARCH
Warnie Big Bash Biffo
Tomic's New Bombshell

The Courier Mail - http://goo.gl/7NTLf
PROFITS OF DISASTER - SPECIAL REPORT
Fears for 100 missing in fires

The Adelaide Advetiser - http://goo.gl/ApkdY
Desperate search for missing 100
HOSPITAL PASS - Prisoners force out RAH patients

The Hobart Mercury - http://goo.gl/J8x10
FEARS FOR THE MISSING

The NT Times - http://goo.gl/7f7VB
STILL NO CROCS Frown Frown Frown
Needles, Rubbish Wash Up on Darwin Beach
Want to rent for under $300 a week?

DMW

January 7. 2013 11:31 AM

LadyInRed

I got this from @margokingston1 - its a great article from the AFR 2002. No surprise that Abbott and Pell & Co misrepresent the truth because it suits their idealogical beliefs.

Tony Abbott, our Workplace Relations Minister, urges us to look at statistics to realise that divorce does immense damage to children and society. In an address to the Centre for
Independent Studies last weekend, he said there was no such thing as a happy divorce. Well, Abbott needs to look a bit more carefully at statistics and also recognise the immense damage caused by toxic marriages.


www.marygarden.com.au/.../...-from-reality-afr.pdf

Andrew Elder hit the nail on the head with these lines:

This is where the testimonials from the women in Abbott's life fail: nobody doubts Tony will support women who support him. In the same way, nobody doubts his antipathy and/or indifference to the broad mass of women beyond his personal circle, who believe they should be able to enjoy basic rights over their bodies and reproduction without having to form close personal relationships with Tony Abbott.

http://andrewelder.blogspot.com.au/





LadyInRed

January 7. 2013 11:42 AM

MWS

From Tory Maguire at The Punch:

At the risk of being obtuse, two and a bit years ago a woman who is not just a member of the political class but is right at the epicentre of the Liberal Party wrongly thought Tony Abbott wanted to wind back abortion rights.

And people wonder why a large chunk of the Mamamia crowd think the guy is a dangerously retrograde pro-lifer.

Tony Abbott might not have a problem with women, but clearly a lot of women have a problem with Tony Abbott.

And he doesn’t have time to go around the country having coffee with every woman and explain the details of his paid maternity leave policy and provide reassurance that while he thinks the high number of abortions in Australia is a tragedy he’s not planning taking away a woman’s right to govern her own reproductive system.



www.thepunch.com.au/.../

MWS

January 7. 2013 11:46 AM

MWS

Denise Allen on the "eggs in fridge" story:

Your boss is one of the most aggressive, smear-mongering politicians in Australian history.

But you know what the worst of this is?

Abbott has done it all with your help.

Which makes you a pretty unpleasant person in yourself.

You will go to any length and stoop down into the lowest gutter to get your rotten boss over the line at the next election.


www.independentaustralia.net/.../

MWS

January 7. 2013 11:47 AM

DMW

bob macalba @ 8:33 AM
will shoot down any messenger i dont agree with

I hope that you actually meant that you would shoot holes in the message and not shhot the messenger. If you have fired bullets at this messenger they have been so far off the mark that, well people in Brisbane may have had to duck for cover.

White did not give his rationale for his predictions of seat losses for Labor ...

As I commented @ January 6. 2013 11:55 AM in response to Ad:

In what way does this statement by Alex White:
"... but unless Labor really pulls its finger out in the next few weeks, there is simply not enough time for it to build the on-the-ground campaign infrastructure and volunteer base needed to hold onto all those marginal seats."
not offer a rationale even in a 'small way'?

Does this paragraph:
Given that 2013 is an election year, we can expect to see more policies of this type. Hopeless, crass and opportunistic policies that are designed to pass the “Lindsay Test” or to get a good run in the Daily Telegraph. Bad policies will continue — expect more regressive action on refugees. Expect the racist Northern Territory Intervention to continue. Expect the watering down of existing good policy and a race to the bottom for grub for votes or chase headlines.
not give even a small hint of some of White's thinking?

Other than I disagree with White and I agree with Elder what rationale do you offer to prove that either of them is 'right' or 'wrong'?

any naysayer who wants to chance his hand with a set of predictions 10 months out from the election is fair game as far as im concerned, ...

What about yeahsayers? are they fair game as well? or are they a protected species because you agree with their prediction that Labor will win?

DMW

January 7. 2013 12:07 PM

2353

The Abbott supports those undergoing IVF story is really working well.  (From the Brisbane Times)

Poll: How do you feel about Peta Credlin and Christopher Pyne making public the personal support they received from Tony Abbott during their respective experiences with IVF?

It made me re-think how I see Tony Abbott; he's not as conservative as I thought

    8%
I didn't think Tony Abbott's support was very surprising; any decent person would react that way

    30%
Blatantly political - it was tacky to use their personal experiences like that

    62%

Total votes: 1243.

Poll closes in 12 hours.

Vote now: Australian whingers

Disclaimer:

These polls are not scientific and reflect the opinion only of visitors who have chosen to participate.

www.brisbanetimes.com.au/.../...0130107-2cbqs.html

Methinks the LNP is really worried about something that is coming out in their internal polling.

2353

January 7. 2013 12:23 PM

42 long

62% think it's blatantly political. That's comforting. They obviously see a problem and think they can cover it (change it) with media coverage.
   They run the risk of a "methinks they protest too much" reaction.
   If Labor did anything like it they would be hyperventilating ot panicking. They obviously know and trust that they have the continuing support of the MSM. The same hypocrites say there is no effect from what runs in the media "intelligent' people will sort it out in their minds. No need for insistence on media "balance". Of course not. Pull the other leg.
   They also criticise Labor for "not getting it's message out". HOW do THEY get their message out with the current BIAS and connivance of the MSM.

42 long

January 7. 2013 12:27 PM

DMW

Per Ardua @ 09:06 AM
It appears that you move in a more elevated political plane than some of us mere commenters/lurkers.

Appearances can be deceptive Smile I do not move in any elevated political plane and although in the now getting very dim and distant past I was in close quarters contact with politics and many of its' players I did not think of it as being on any elevated plane it was just what I did.

My contact with those 'political' these days is as an elector contacting my local representative who usually does me the courtesy of responding.

... does one really need to campaign for an election to confirm his/her support for a party of choice?

Does one need to prove they cast a valid vote at an election to be entitled to an opinion on politics and are they entitled to express that opinion?

DOes one need to be a current member of a political party to have an opinion on its' policies and how it operates?

Does one need to prove they did not wring their hands in despair in 1993 to confirm themselves as a true believer and not a daydream believer (cue the Monkees Smile )

Seriously though, are you really bemused or just hoping for a Labor defeat?

I am not hoping or praying for a Labor defeat. And definitely not an Abbott victory.

I have serious reservations about the prospects for victory that are not based solely on the polls or what is coming from many in the media. The reservations come, in part, from discussions with people who are more astute observers than me and whom I respect.

As to that other proposition, interesting and almost tempting but, the hard reality is that, not even my wife would vote for me. So with your vote and mine I would only be short about 7,500 from getting my deposit back Tong

DMW

January 7. 2013 12:37 PM

DMW

Ken @ 9:17 AM
Macklin may well have 'gotten away with it' had not someone shot the boss in the foot and possibly elsewhere by having a very tin ear and suggesting the response was inaudible

Yes the polls will most likely 'tighten' but it will take a very disciplined effort not to see defeat snatched from the jaws of victory

DMW

January 7. 2013 01:29 PM

DMW

psyclaw in mentioning 1993 reminded me of something from Paul Keating's True Believers Speech a transcript of which can be found here:
www.answers.com/topic/1993-true-believers-speech

If you prefer a video try this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmuUu4zgm7w

This still sticks with me:
The people of Australia have taken us on trust and we’ll return that trust and we’ll care about those people out there. Particularly the unemployed. We want to get them back to work, and if we can’t get them back to work immediately as sure as hell we’re going look after them. We’re not going to leave them in the lurch, we’re going to put our hand out and pull them up behind us. This country is going to move along together.

The Keating government's Working Nation (?) programme was one of the best things it did as it gave hope and a new life to many people and helped out many community and sporting organisations along the way. It was part of the glue that was community.

Unfortunately Howard threw the baby out with the bathwater with his idealogical 'cleansing' and we became a little worse off as a nation. The unemployed once again became the economies cannon fodder.

The sense of community and belonging got progressivley weakened and/or lost over the eleven or so years of the Howard administration as we moved even further away from being a society and seeing ourselves more as an economy.

Although many would not be able to articulate it this way the loss of a sense of belonging was one of the principle reasons that Howard lost in 2007.

At the 2010 election neither side was able to convince enough of the electorate that they offered as a better society, a community or sense that we belong.

Should either party tap into that and present to the electorate some credible propositions around this thing that is community, belonging and inclusiveness they stand a good chance of romping it in.

Theoretically Labor would be the more likely to do this but the current governments actions around the unemployed, asylum seekers and other less fortunates suggests that they do not get it.

DMW

January 7. 2013 01:51 PM

TalkTurkey

Worst bad-taste misogynistic comment so far this year on Twitter:

Maybe Peta is just Fridgid!

And who said that awful thing?

. . . *Crickets*

. . . (blush) Smile

TalkTurkey

January 7. 2013 02:25 PM

Gravel

If this IVF story is going to be typical of the spin the Lies No Policies party and the media are going to run from now until the election, can someone please explain what Australians will be voting for in the way of policies.

Oh that's right, they don't have any.  Silly me.  It is going to be a long and tedious year if this is what the media call news.  Maybe the extreme fire danger warnings for NSW will get reported on page 17.

Watched Julia give a press conference in Tassie.  She was very calm and assuring.  Couldn't believe the stupid questions, especially the one where she was asked why she was allowed to go into areas that people who lived there weren't.  She said she only went where the people in charge took her.  He was trying to imply that she was getting privilege, luckily he didn't succeed.  

Gravel

January 7. 2013 02:52 PM

bob macalba

DMW
Did i not mention that i disagree with White, and that i agree with Mr Elder?... well i do
now the part where you think the opposite,..so what, thats your humble opinion, i read it, i disagreed and i moved on,
i read both pieces, and funny enough the Elder one impressed me more, maybe i just didnt get the 'context' of the White piece, or maybe i did and just simply disagreed,...whatever, the important thing to me is that.. i made my decision on what i read and if Alex White couldnt get my nod, you helping his corner wont change it.

cheers

bob macalba

January 7. 2013 03:18 PM

Tom of Melbourne

[I]Maybe Peta is just Fridgid[/i] (sic)

Well done to the Political Sword.Yet again taking the moral high ground in the debate about the role of professionL women.

This follows all those earlier examples of a similar theme. Yes the progresives here are always at the forefront of partisan miaogynist name calling.

Tom of Melbourne

January 7. 2013 03:30 PM

LadyInRed

Agree fridgid joke is in poor taste. Thumbs down from me.

LadyInRed

January 7. 2013 03:31 PM

Jason

ToM,
   I couldn't give a rats arse if Credlins husband and I noticed Pyne fire blanks!
Policy is what I want from Abbott not how supportive he is on personal issues!

Jason

January 7. 2013 03:57 PM

DMW

bob macalba,
I have no great need to convince you or anyone else here of anything.

I do find it amusing though that your original assessmennt (January 6. 2013 09:24 AM) of an article was an attck on the person who wrote the article:

Alex White has got no heart, what a sad sack he is,

no fight, no 'goolies'.. hes the lion from Wizard of Oz,
his family crest is a picture of a chicken waving a white flag,
with the words 'surrender now' surrounding the chicken.. the mans got no balls..... a big thanks to Andrew Elder for putting him straight,


and then (@ January 7. 2013 08:33 AM) agree with Ad and incorrectly assert that White did not give his rationale for his predictions of seat losses for Labor ...

I also find it amusing that for all appearances from your comments on this that there is only one correct view and no correspondence or discussion shall be entered into without the use of some device with which to 'shoot' anybody that has a different view.

Are you able to answer what I asked above:

(bm) any naysayer who wants to chance his hand with a set of predictions 10 months out from the election is fair game as far as im concerned, ...

(DMW) What about yeahsayers? are they fair game as well? or are they a protected species because you agree with their prediction that Labor will win?

After all Mr Elder is making bold predictions 10 months (or less?) out from an election should he not be fair game? There would be more than one person who could fairly (?) assert that Mr Elder is blowing smoke out of his rear end doesn't have a clue.

DMW

January 7. 2013 04:09 PM

MWS

Bushfire Bill's latest:

Our economy is among the best in the world, our dollar is a reserve currency, our life style is rated No. 1, our debt is low, interest rates, taxes and unemployment ditto, we are on the Security Council doing good work around the world, our Treasurer wins prizes for his accomplishments, our Prime Minister is lauded all over as a Boadecia-like figure in the cause of women’s rights, big initiatives – the NDIS, Health and Education reforms, the NBN, anti-tobacco measures and many more – are either in train, or planned in a professional manner with proper consultation and hard bargaining… yet we are told we may as well stay in bed because Craig Thomson looks like he may have used hookers ten years ago, or the PM had a shoe malfunction, or her arse is too big.

pbxmastragics.com/.../

MWS

January 7. 2013 04:16 PM

MWS

Anne Summers on the reaction to the Credlin puff piece in Limited News:

Here was the third woman in Abbott's life - after his wife Margie and his sister Christine Foster - coming forward to plead that the Tony we know from his public utterances is not the "real Tony". It is one thing for family members or for Abbott's female shadow ministers and especially his deputy Julie Bishop to stand up and argue that he is not misogynist. For a staffer to do so looked like an act of political desperation. And for the staffer to bring her personal story, heartbreaking as it is, into the equation verged on the tacky.

It is not the role of a political chief of staff to give interviews. I can't think of another example of it ever happening. So for Credlin to do so was always going to create a political firestorm.


http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4455364.html

MWS

January 7. 2013 04:20 PM

MWS

Michael Stuchbery on the teachers' employment contracts:

The cocktail of contracts and the inflexibility of the welfare system is an active deterrent to anybody seeking to make teaching a career, particularly within the state system. For teachers seeking to make a career, they have at least a decade of almost continuous job-searching ahead of them, whether it be in the workplace, reapplying for their own jobs, or to satisfy Centrelink's requirements of applying for 10 or so positions a fortnight.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4455144.html

MWS

January 7. 2013 05:15 PM

LadyInRed

I read that piece by Vanstone MWS and I couldn't agree more with Bushfire Bill. Vanstone says:

Australia is much better than a quick look at our question time would have you believe. Australia is richer, stronger, better, more productive, more innovative than our Parliament. We are made of better stuff.

Personally I am quite tired of being told that the standard of parliament QT is the fault of both sides? Who asks the questions? Not a single question for Craig Emerson on Trade, nothing from Warren Truss to Albo on Transport and Infastructure, nothing but whinging, bullying and deliberate tactics to try to kick the government out. On and on it went wasting time, feeding the biggest dummy spit of all time.

Mandy thinks:

It was a lousy year in many ways, not the least of which is the fairly low regard in which our federal Parliament is now held.

If federal parliament is held in low regard that is largely due to the coalition. They set the agenda with what questions are asked, the tone in which those questions are asked, and the reason behind asking the question in first place. So one would think if you ask a smeary question don't be surprised if you get a snarly answer. If I genuinely want to hold a minister to account I can do so by asking relevant questions....surely?

Actually many think the PM has done a brilliant job. What a fighter, a formidable leader. Her inspirational mysogyny speech that struck a chord all over the world. Nation building changes with the carbon price, NDIS, NBN, and changes to education that will target funding, with extra going to where it is needed most. An economy that's growing, low umemployment, low interest rates, restrained spending. But that's not the story the MSM has been selling.

Parliament hasn't fanned the fuel of discontent, certainly not the Labor side of politics. The MSM and friends of the opposition have done the fanning. And the ridiculous thing is, they believe, that when they get in and they can flick the positive switch we can all start cheering. They have the dibs on how we as a nation should feel.

The world will still be exerting the same pressures, the climate will still be getting hotter, our education will still be sliding, middle class welfare will continue, the rich will get richer, the gap will continue to widen, no real plans to take us into the Asian century but hey suddenly parliament will be all the better? Same people different now just on the other side of the chamber and flick the switch. Oh and get out of bed earlier, and suddenly positivity reigns. The cheek of Vanstone for spinning this dribble.

LadyInRed

January 7. 2013 05:22 PM

Ad astra

Folks
I’ve been working with Web Monkey today on TPS Mail, so haven’t been around much.   It’s progressing steadily.

Thank you for your comments.

We all hope HKTAGH that you are safe.

Ad astra

January 7. 2013 05:37 PM

MWS

LiR, lack of sleep has been correlated with weight gain.  If Australians get out of bed earlier, then there is a good chance they will gain  weight. Perhaps somebody should enlighten Amanda Vanstone?

MWS

January 7. 2013 05:40 PM

KHTAGH

TPS
Swords folk, the aftermath. the large pine trees is the distance are the very same ones that are being shown on ABC24 today when Julia is being interviewed.  

http://www.facebook.com/csajben

KHTAGH

January 7. 2013 05:45 PM

Ad astra

Folks
I’m populating the databases for TPS Mail.  I’ve finished the database of all Federal politicians: names, email addresses, party, state and electorate, and the database of the journalists where I have email addresses.  The latter is very limited.  

I need your help.  Please send me the email address of any political journalist you know other than those on the list below.

Journalists Email Addresses

Mike Carlton mhcarlton@gmail.com

Laura Tingle ltingle@afr.com.au 

Lenore Taylor 
 lenore.taylor@fairfaxmedia.com.au

Phillip Coorey  pcoorey@smh.com.au 
  
Ross Gittins ross.gittins@fairfaxmedia.com.au
Thomas Hedley
 thomash@theaustralian.com.au
Patricia Karvelas  karvelasp@theaustralian.com.au
Imre Salusinszky
salusinszkyi@theaustralian.com.au
Paul Maley 
maleyp@theaustralian.com.au
Brad Norington noringtonb@theaustralian.com.au
Rowan Callick
callickr@theaustralian.com.au
Stefanie Balogh
baloghs@theaustralian.com.au
Sean Parnell
parnells@theaustralian.com.au
John Warhurst John.Warhurst@anu.edu.au
Ross Peake ross.peake@canberratimes.com.au
Paul Kelly kellyp@theaustralian.com.au
Dennis Shanahan shanahand@theaustralian.com.au

The last two are addresses I have made up using the formula used by The Australian.  If they are wrong, please correct me.

Even if you have just one or two addresses that are not on the list, please post them, as we do need a substantial list of regular political journalists to make that part of the TPS Mail system work well.

Ad astra

January 7. 2013 05:47 PM

bob macalba

DMW
If my agreeing with Mr Elder makes him a yaysayer to you, fine.
  
but the fact is i agree with most people who come here as well, yourself included, there might be the odd thing that might differ that im not convinced about but generally i agree with most comments,  does that make me a seeker of yaysayers because i come to this site?  no i come to read comments from true believers whose comments match the same thoughts that go through my dyslexic mind, all the thoughts i would love to put down in a cohesive way are already out there for me to read so why do you think i should seek out naysayers?  why would i come here to mull over negative musings?  
and lastly why do my thoughts bother you so much? am i missing something here?

cheers

bob macalba

January 7. 2013 06:00 PM

LadyInRed

Interesting point MWS, had a check on the web and it would appear you are correct. Perhaps we should send a link to Amanda. Actually lack of sleep is linked to a lot of bad outcomes. So not a good article all round. Very silly of her. But hey it was an opportunity for her to spin it into something negative about the government, even if she did lump the Libs in the mix.

I certainly don't look to Vanstone, now an ordinary person since she is not a parliamentarian, for inspiration. And now I can add sound advice to my list of 'not consulting Vanstone for'.

LadyInRed

January 7. 2013 06:03 PM

LadyInRed


Former parliamentary speaker Peter Slipper is set to face court accused of misusing Commonwealth taxi vouchers.



Read more: www.theage.com.au/.../...aring-20130107-2ccgf.html

LadyInRed

January 7. 2013 06:18 PM

Ian

AA,

Paul Kelly should be;

paulyboy@gravitasizcheep.com.au

Shanahan is at;

brokenpundit@rupesnotgonnalikethepolls.com.au

Of course, both can be found at their local trendy pub;

The Inn of the Insipid and Vapid.....conveniently located in the News Ltd basement....where, rumour has it, Janet Albrechson moonlights as Bar Manager, bouncer and topless barmaid.

Ian

January 7. 2013 06:42 PM

42 long

Just add upp the all female defenders of abbott's character. The only area in the LieNP where  women are more in demand than men. There is a growing work opportunity there.
  Bishop J did all of the hard carrying in the last week of the parliament in dirty  QT. Margie is on the staff too and sister ( special mention of her relationship preferences, all used for political purposes. We don't really want to know) Now Peta Credlin, senior staffer tactician..and private person. To be a woman friend/associate of Tony is to be used fully, and I mean "USED". sacrifices on the altar of the exalted one so he can save the world. THIS is getting a bit grubby.

42 long

January 7. 2013 06:50 PM

MWS

The Age is reporting that Slipper's charges relate to three Comcar trips in 2010 (when Slipper was still in the LNP) which left the bounds of the ACT.
Slipper could claim that he was depressed and no conviction would be recorded.  He didn't even assaulted anybody!

Perhaps the AFPcould now investigate Tony Abbott's latest expenses claim, including all the $25 "infringements" and the claim for the daily allowance while on the "pollie pedal"?

MWS

January 7. 2013 06:52 PM

MWS

Apologies for any errors, typing on a 7" tablet isn't easy!

MWS

January 7. 2013 07:28 PM

Ken

DMW

A couple of late comments on your earlier posts.

I think I did comment (somewhere) that Macklin's office claiming the report was inaudible was another example of political advisers (and I use the term loosely in the circumstances) doing their "worst".  They try to "protect" their Minister at any cost, including ridiculous costs!!

I agree that discipline is needed and it frightens me that we are not seeing very much of it as yet.  

The Government needs to get onto the front foot and, I  think, ignore some of the LNP's tantrums.  It needs to push its policy agenda (which is substantial), stop the ridiculous comments (requires discipline) and stop listening to some of the stupid "advisers" they have.  As I have previously suggested they need to sack a few advisers and even consider a few changes in the Ministry.

Ken

January 7. 2013 08:24 PM

bob macalba

uncle Clive has seriously got it in for Newman,..

  www.news.com.au/.../story-e6frfku9-1226548854302  

  politics Qld style gonna be interesting to watch,  from a distance

bob macalba

January 7. 2013 08:29 PM

Jason

MWS,
   Here is George Bludger's responce to Anne Summers over at the Drum!

George Bludger :
07 Jan 2013 4:54:17pm
Hi Anne, you finding my image offensive is of course your interpretation, but political humour is often such when the messages being used by Credlin/Abbott and the policy positions taken are offensive in the first place.

Credlin has championed the "Stop the [fill in the gap]" sloganism by Abbott, picking on boat people, minorities & other groups to in effect chastise and ridicule for the sake of wedge politics. Hence why the "stop the" part was used in the pic, and it went straight to the fact that many in politics and power take the view that anyone is fair game, regardless of personal circumstance, as long as they are not "part of our inner circle".

So in Abbott's case, on his position on many issues pertaining to women's health, fertility and abortion, the record is clear. He has said, written and acted on policy that leaves no question to his feeling on many of these issues, including IVF, and over many years, including more recently.

That Credlin's personal IVF journey is being wielded by her and Abbott to at once "prove" Abbott's woman-friendly credentials, and create an exit for Credlin from politics, is by far the most offensive I've read, especially as the politics adhered to by the likes of Abbott & Credlin would in all likelihood reduce the accessibility of IVF and other programs to most women.

In the end, what you find offensive, me attacking Credlin over her IVF, is less about her "eggs" and more about the fact that she/Abbott are being hypocritical & continuing to play wedge politics with important and often challenging issues.

They chose to ridicule & chastise groups of Australians. That we point it out to them via their own words is not offensive, but shows the simplicity of their message and the damage it does when "it's not them" in the firing line.


http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4455364.html

Jason

January 7. 2013 09:12 PM

TalkTurkey

LiR

I don't think you should be quite so tense!
Women jibe men about impotence!
Don't think you need be so rigid
About its gender equivalent frigid!

Besides which, it was a top-shelf pun under the circs. If I have to say so myself. Clever humour is its own excuse.*

But the most important point is, Credlin pulled this stunt, I didn't want to know about her breeding problems, it seems unseemly as well as irrelevant.    

*I understand that Jason Obelix is about to post a link to George Bludger, a bit along the same lines. I have heard snips of it. It seems he has said "Stop the Eggs" and Anne Summers has taken offence at that. (I referred in a limerick of her keeping her eggs in Abbortt's fridge, nobody here objected to that and some found it hilarious, well there you go, some say Yum, some say Yuk.)

LiR you would know that I am fond of your contributions, just, gee, wicked wit is still on the menu isn't it?

TalkTurkey

January 7. 2013 09:26 PM

DMW

Hi Ken,
your comments on advisers could lead us into a discussion that goes totally off the beaten track.

Nothing like a bit of adventurism is there? Smile

I need a bit of guidance and possibly correction but my memory is that during the years prior to Howard mainly advisers were upper tier public servants who were either seconded to the ministers office or took leave to work with a minister. There was little, if any, 'payback' for being an adviser. There were no doubt some political wannabes that worked in ministers offices but the were few and far between.

Somewhere along the line it changed.

There are more than a few currently in parliament that came through the 'adviser to member' path Kelly O'Dwyer from Costello's office being one that springs immediately to mind. (I just can't think of any of the Labor ones instantly)

There has been some pushback from 'ordinary members' of the party with the ACT being a prime example by endorsing Leigh and Brodtmann against the 'will of the machine'. There are others like the member for Robertson (Deb O'Neill) and one or two in SA that I need Jason to remind me of.

The 'professionalisation' of the political game has had some advantages but I suspect more drawbacks mainly because it has led to a detachment from the community aspects of what is to be a representative of the people.

The massive workload just being a member let alone being a minister requires 'minders' and 'advisors' being part of the mix but somehow I suspect we have had more of the 'drawbacks' infect the system rather than the 'advantages' enhancing the system.

DMW

January 7. 2013 09:33 PM

Ad astra

KHTAGH
I'm glad you are OK.  A close call by the looks of it.  Please stay safe.

Ad astra

January 7. 2013 09:36 PM

bob macalba

DMW

Can we call a truce on this one?  no winners here.
  
maybe a small win towards my keyboard skills...still pecking but using both hands now, quicker and with fewer mistakes,  gotta thank you for that,

cheers

bob macalba

January 7. 2013 09:37 PM

Ad astra

Ian
I enjoy your sense of humour.

Ad astra

January 7. 2013 09:40 PM

Ad astra

Folks
As usual ToM seems to have got his wires crossed as he attempts to have a shot at TPS.  It's pathetic, as usual.

I'm off to watch TV now.

Ad astra

January 7. 2013 10:29 PM

Tom of Melbourne

'wicked wit' is rhyming slang.

Apparently misogyny is fine as long as humour is claimed. Racist jokes used to make the same claims.

Tom of Melbourne

January 7. 2013 10:52 PM

Jason

ToM,
   How predictable you being a borish oaf as usual! Outraged on other peoples behalf. Get a life FFS!

Jason

January 8. 2013 12:18 AM

TalkTurkey

Judgmentalism ...

Gee I hate having my own pure motives misinterpreted, I feel sullied. It hasn't happened to me much for a year or so, but I really fume about it when it does happen.

One billet doux yesterday though not specifically addressed at me went close to accusing me of toadying to PvO. That doesn't sit well with me I must say (I must say)- but if that's the way you see me so be it. But it demeans the demeaner too.

                          *

A few weeks ago in order merely to enlighten her I gently corrected a woman who thought prose meant rhyming verse.

Her appropriate response would have been, Oh really? I have had it wrong way round, lol, ta!

Well! She put on a display of histrionics to the effect that I was deliberately shaming her, and never came back, but in the meantime I got the message from others here that I was being offensively schoolmasterish. I wasn't being smartarse, wasn't being nasty, but that's the way I got made to feel. And nobody really came to my rescue, well maybe one or two. But I hated it. Just in case you didn't know.

                       *

Many people say nice things to me here. But I tell you, the man who wins Tatts and sprains his ankle doing a cartwheel for joy, is thinking about the pain not the money. I resent uncalled-for slights impugning pure motives and imputing shitty ones  instead. I have seen that do great injury to some of the best people I have known, (Don Dunstan is one!) and when they are about me, big or little, I take them to heart, and would count myself less if I didn't. So there.

And I extend that courtesy to all, even the Enemy,as in, today I defended Credlin against the charge that she lied to Samantha Maiden about Abbortt not saying abortion was the easy way out. I despise Credlin but I don't know she deliberately lied, no evidence for that, only that she repeated a lie from Abbortt. She should have checked the facts, so should have Maiden. But the point is, if I can be that fair from my heart I know I can't be all that rotten. And I'm not!

I would like to think that people here would first assume the best of intentions from me, and as far as I know myself, that will generally be true. And don't make churlish assumptions about my motives. I'm not churlish OK?!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You might wonder why I'm saying this now. Well read on.
  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Professor Peter van Onselen, [who is not answering me often atm], invited 3 of us on Twitter - GreensboroughGrowler, Thefinnigans and me - to appear on his SkyTV show The Contrarians. I have contacted them all on Direct Messages and on the Twitter stream itself, I have been nothing but polite to all of them.

GG has accepted, that's fine by me. Thefinnigans has turned PvO down. I have too, for the foreseeable future anyway. For my own reasons, which is all it has to be.

Others may yet be found to make up the threesome PvO wants, and I do hope that will happen. But in the meantime, as most here know, I reversed the invitation, asking Professor van Onselen if he would like to come here to TPS. He accepted, with the caveat that he didn't want to spend extended periods here. Fair enough of course. He's welcome here anyway, anytime, like anyone else. Though he sort of brings the vibe of scout from a different culture, which is why he is a curiosity of course, presenting an unusual opportunity for exchange of ideas. Well that was my thought anyway, and plainly of several others, Ad included  

Well I thought GG and Finnie would both be pleased to come here too, and I tweeted them accordingly. All was friendly I thought.
  

I said to
@GBoroughGrowler
Will ye no come to www.thepoliticalsword.com/.../...comment-here.aspx … where we hope 2 get dialogue going with PvO? Different from Twitter! Room to talk.

Well it just goes to show I guess! ~~~ !

GG replied

@TalkyTurkey Lyn's site is one I cruise . However, my haunt of choice is PB. PVO is under no obligation to play your silly game.


??! That feels like a kick in the groin! WHY?

Why are my motives not taken at face value?

When ever have I given real reason to mistrust me?  

I tweeted back

Uncalled 4 & unfriendly, wassamatter, I have supported you entirely, Oh well have it your way, PvO agreed of own free will.

And I  thought it over and added
GBoroughGrowler
Were you aware PvO had agreed already? What's eating you anyway? Ad astra + others think it's a good idea, you got S.O.L.?*

And you know what he has said to me since then?

               * (Crickets) *

I think it's pretty insulting not just of me but of this blog and all who contribute. But again it says more about GG I think.
                       *


I haven't stopped trying for the PvO interface, it's just proving less joyous and harder than I had hoped.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


*S.O.L.: Something On the Liver (liverish = disagreeable,  peevish) (Maybe I got it myself now.)


Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense.
The only thing I like about the House of Windsor.

TalkTurkey

January 8. 2013 07:34 AM

Gravel

Knee High

I guess you didn't get to meet with Julia.  Are those photo's taken from your property?  I am glad that so far no one has perished in these fires. The efforts of everyone has been appreciated, and those young blokes using their boats to rescue people and take supplies to others are a wonderful example of what Aussies are made of.

Ad Astra

Can't help with any addresses, sorry.

bob macalba

I like your dyslexic mind, it sounds much like mine, that's why I like to read everyone's comment to make sure I'm not too far out of the ballpark. If I was I'm sure I would give up following the political scene.

Gravel

January 8. 2013 07:49 AM

bob macalba

Crickets, its amazing how often they turn up, usually after asking somebody their motive,  when they realize themselves they dont really have one......crickets..crickets, to save face, sad

bob macalba

January 8. 2013 07:50 AM

Michael

TT, hi.

In my 'trend towards kowtowing' post of a couple of days back I wasn't referring to anything you've written here re PvO.

And certainly I was not impugning toadying on anyone's part.

But...

This is a blog site. All comers post on the same basis.

That's what blog sites are. (Are for?)

I believe that anyone with an established public profile who is professionally remunerated, doing here only a slight variation on what they do in their day job, will be on a hiding to nothing.

A person can only have so many neurons firing between the ears any given day. How do they decide what's worth being paid for, and what's really just a 'conversation' amongst equals? Split their thinking - "this has day job/wide-cast high recognition value, this is what I toss in over there"?

On top of that, the people paying someone to do something which they manifestly believe that person does better than the competition, how long will they sit still while their employee hands out for free essentially the same product they pay exclusive 'first access' to? That is, that person's "voice", their commentary-recognition value?

Beyond that, whatever a professional commentator puts on record here will be de facto a bigger target to anyone else here offering different opinions.

We've seen long trailing threads at this site of personalised debate setting out to demolish opposing positions and position-takers. Scalp-hunting, the 'gotcha' moment when the opponent is reduced to the gibbering wreck in the corner who's just been intellectually eviscerated. Or so each poster seems to believe as they whip through their ripostes, jabs, and knock-out blows.

PvO will be a target here. He (and his ilk) would be anywhere on a public blog. To 'get one of the big guys'? Irresistible. ("get" equals 'out-argue', 'convince', 'contest to a draw', whatever - be considered on a level with, in short, trumpet-blowing.)

His offer to have Fifth Estaters on his TV show is not at all the same thing as his being on site here. The former is a professional context extending its reach to invite alternate opinions characterised by amateur (in the Olympic Games ideal sense of the word) commitment and unconstrained participation. "Unconstrained" because blogging there's no time slot, no defined editorial overview, no financial element involved - people post when they post, what they want to post, and with no remunerative result.

PvO posting here? See above.

Michael

January 8. 2013 08:17 AM

DMW

From the Newspapers ...
   What the front pages are saying

via Front Pages Today - http://goo.gl/enTjx

The Australian - http://goo.gl/3bnTO
Funding crisis for juvenile justice
The risk is real and potentially deadly: fire chief's warning to brace for catastrophe
Slipper to face court over taxi dockets

The Sydney Morning Herald - http://goo.gl/1kOHj
‘Worst fire danger the state has faced’
Rogue trader: hoax triggers $314m fall

The Daily Telegraph - http://goo.gl/JXc7d
Heat Wave Red Alert 43C
In The Line of Fire Exclusive: Police Track Arsonists as state bracers for danger
(No Slipper)

The Age - http://goo.gl/j6tKW
Health cuts cost jobs, close beds
How a hoaxer created sharemarket havoc
SHANE, OH SHANE

The Herald Sun - http://goo.gl/0wNCf
People priced out of VCAT
RED ALERT
Is Warne Finished?
(No Slipper)

The Courier Mail - http://goo.gl/7NTLf
BYPASS FARCE - Access delays continue at busy hospitals
(No Slipper)

The Adelaide Advetiser - http://goo.gl/ApkdY
Dani returns to sing about love, loss
TAIL WIND - 199 turbines on massive new farm - $1.3bn project to fast track NBN - http://goo.gl/i7Atd
Slipper Faces Fresh Charges

The Hobart Mercury - http://goo.gl/J8x10
HEROES OF THE FLAMES
Red Alert moves to North-West - PM's show of Support - Man charged over campfire

The NT Times - http://goo.gl/7f7VB
KILL YOURSELF NOT OTHERS - Top cop's plea to drink drivers
Shots Fired at Wild Party
(Acting Chief Minister) Lambley Storms Out of Media Conference

DMW

January 8. 2013 08:23 AM

bob macalba

Gerard thinks ABC stacked with 'lefties'

www.smh.com.au/.../...ked-deck-20130107-2ccq2.html

bob macalba

January 8. 2013 08:34 AM

DMW

Hey Bob,
A couple of points:
It is highly debatable, even contestable, that Gerard THINKS
but he does KNOW the ABC is stacked with lefties Smile

DMW

January 8. 2013 08:47 AM

Ken

DMW

Your recollection is correct.  What were called Private Secretaries and Senior Private Secretaries were usually taken from the Department(s) for which the Minister was responsible.  Their main role was as a conduit between the Minister and the Department and from day one meant the Minister's office understood the Department and how it worked.  The "political advisers" at the time were usually part of the Minister's "electorate office".

I, too, don't recall exactly when this changed.  There is still a Departmental liaison officer placed in Minister's offices, but they are now subservient to the political advisers.  

Under the old model, the emphasis was on policy and the administration of policy.  Under the new model the emphasis is on politics, protecting the Minister, and on media implications.
Unfortunately, that has also had an effect on the Public Service.  

If we want to look for reasons why the quality of policy debate has diminished, we don't need to look much further.

Ken

January 8. 2013 08:55 AM

Truth Seeker

Morning Swordsters, as the new political year begins, and the political discourse heats up again, I thought it might be worth revisiting the Tony Windsor speech that gave us the term "Arsegate", so I have posted my poem, "Let's suspend standing orders", that I posted here last year, on my blog for those that missed it or would like to revisit it.

http://truthseekersmusings.wordpress.com/

Cheers   Smile   Smile

Truth Seeker

January 8. 2013 08:59 AM

DMW

As I trawled through the front pages and, some of the articles, I wondered a bit about expectations, hopes and who we are as Australians.

It fully expected, and got, many articles on the fires and fair enough.

Some people suggested that with Peter Slipper being summonsed it would create, if not huge banner headlines, at least front page stories. It got one in the Oz and a pointer to page 8 in the Adelaide Advertiser.

Read what you will into it but Shane Warne and his antics got more front page pointers than Peter Slipper.

And my 'hopes' were once again dashed - The NT News has let me down big time: NO CROCS Tong

DMW

January 8. 2013 09:13 AM

bob macalba

DMW
about Gerard, good analysis, Gerard 'knows' and i stand corrected

cheers

bob macalba

January 8. 2013 09:15 AM

janice

Talk Turkey,

Don't fret and upset yourself (fuming is bad for the BP) over misinterpretations coming from an anonymous audience.  You are old enough to know that some people make a sport out of twisting word meanings so they can hang something on someone.  

Again whoever it was you chided over using "prose" as rhyming verse most probably reacted to feeling embarrassed/foolish and/or felt you made her look small.  Whatever, it does not matter because you know you did not intend any angst towards the person.

re PVO - Is there any reason why you cannot arrange a convenient time for PVO to visit and then let all TPS commenters know so they can be here to participate?

Btw, GG has a reputation for being grumpy and difficult so don't let him get to you.

Cheers

janice

January 8. 2013 09:20 AM

bob macalba

Truth Seeker.
Bravo,  thanks for putting a smile on my dial,  'Arsegate' rocks

cheers

bob macalba

January 8. 2013 09:45 AM

DMW

Morning Ken,
I am totally guessing here but I suspect where once the departmental people that were seconded to the minister's office were from the upper levels of the department and often the 'bright up and comers' that were potential departmental secretaries now some of the Liaison Officers are, for lack of a good description, people seeing out their time in the service.

On a tangent but related; an ex high level public servant (fairly sure it was an ex Secretary of Defence Dept but can't find quotes) noted a change that occurred around 1996 - 97. Before the change anyone going into see the minister to push/lobby for a case or cause had to be armed with facts and figures and a well set out case on the benefits to the economy and/or countries 'well being'.

It changed over the course of twelve months or so to 'tell us how it will go down with the punters'. My presumption is that it degenerated to what will it do to the polling.

I am a bit hazy on the exact way it was put and who it was although I have a good idea and will make better attempts on tracking it down.

I guess the big questions in this are: Has much changed over the last four or five years? What, if anything, has been done to correct the damage in the eleven years previous to this administration taking government? And there are a few more I can't think of right now.

DMW

January 8. 2013 09:49 AM

bob macalba

DMW
  
i too am wondering about the lack of Slipper coverage, months ago you couldnt get his name or picture out of the media.. thats when he was innocent of any charges, now that he may have been truly naughty..nothing,  strange indeed,
am also concerned about the lack of 'croc' coverage,  hope them crocs are all ok,

bob macalba

January 8. 2013 09:58 AM

Pappinbarra Fox

Just saw LOTO on ABC24 -

Tony Abbott thanking Julia Gillard for going to Tasmania - I nearly gagged - as though somehow LOTO invited her - as though, somehow LOTO is responsible for the PMs empathy with the people of . Unbelievable!

Pappinbarra Fox

January 8. 2013 10:08 AM

bob macalba

Rupert cherry picking facts,...didnt somebody on this site predict his demise this year sometime?  this might sound terrible but i truly hope that prediction comes true,  i personally am going to host a party the moment it comes about, it will be another VE day [victory over evil]  gonna get drunk for a couple of days knowing that when i do sober up the world will be a better place without that evil man,

www.theage.com.au/.../...imple-20130107-2ccuu.html    

cheers

bob macalba

January 8. 2013 10:18 AM

DMW

This could be very useful for any budding Fifth Estate Sleuth:

How to Think Like Sherlock Holmes: Lessons in Mindfulness and Creativity from the Great Detective  Maria Popova @BrainPickings
“The habit of mind which leads to a search for relationships between facts,” wrote James Webb Young in his famous 1939 5-step technique for creative problem-solving, “becomes of the highest importance in the production of ideas.” But just how does one acquire those vital cognitive customs? That’s precisely what science writer Maria Konnikova explores ...
www.brainpickings.org/.../

DMW

January 8. 2013 10:31 AM

bob macalba

I really feel for the folk up there in Qld,  they have been through this before, now they have to sit back and watch it all take shape again, WTF, everyone can see whats happening or about to happen yet the country can only sit back and watch it happen, watch the crooks and vested interest groups rape the state of Qld,  

www.brisbanetimes.com.au/.../...0130107-2ccs1.html

bob macalba

January 8. 2013 10:36 AM

Ad astra

Talk Turkey
I’m sorry that some of the comments here have upset you as your intentions are worthy.   Janice writes wisely on this matter.  Regarding PvO, let’s see if he visits here after we resume normal activities in February.  If he does, we will have the opportunity to begin a dialogue between those of us in the Fifth Estate and those in the Fourth.  We two have discussed this privately and believe it’s worth a try.  Michael sets out his thoughts on this idea.  I suggest any question of the wisdom of such a move be left until the dialogue begins, if indeed it does.  We will soon know whether it will be useful.

DMW
Thank you for the Front Pages, relatively free of acerbic political comment.

Re the Slipper matter, I noticed that ABC AM gave it balanced comment this morning via Alexandra Kirk: http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2013/s3665563.htm

Ad astra

January 8. 2013 10:44 AM

Truth Seeker

Bob, glad you liked it!   Smile   Smile

Cheers   Smile   Smile

Truth Seeker

January 8. 2013 10:45 AM

Ken

DMW

We could go on and on with this because it is an interesting change that has had major implications for how we are governed.

I don't think much has changed in the past few years - the Macklin debacle is an example.  I also think some of the PM's mistakes seem to have come from somewhat strange advice about what the electorate wants to hear.

Before I left the PS, there was a requirement for every major policy proposal to include a section on media opportunities.

Even under Howard, and under Rudd, the governments kept talking about evidence-driven policy but I read one interesting academic article which described the situation as actually being "policy driven evidence".  Given what we are talking about, that really meant finding the evidence that suported the government's "political" positon.  I know I had to do things like that a few times.  The evidence one provides is not wrong, but just selective - a classic example of "spin" - and the PS has been drawn into that.  All Public Servants are now indoctrinated with the line that their first responsibility is to the Minister - the clients (the public who benefit) are now rated down the list!!  While both are important, I think the emphasis has shifted too much to the Minister and, of course, with the changes in the way Minister's offices are run, that now means much more attention is paid to political implications, rather than the policy implications for the other clients.

Ken

January 8. 2013 10:55 AM

KHTAGH

Gravel

   No it is my mates place where we run the cows, more feed, well there was. I'm about 1 1/2 klms away, his place was the only place in Carlton River rd that was completely surrounded by fire, as you can see the spraying of water around the property stopped the fire in the yard even after we had left.

  We hold grave fears for a friend that lived in the path of the fire & no-one has heard from him yet, fingers crossed he is ok & only has a flat phone.

  Some of my hives had large bee losses due to the heat, piles of dead bees that have been removed by the survivors. I'm thinking I'm going to have construct some type of roof over them for future hot days, many vegies & fruit cooked on the trees & in the garden too.

  Today is going to be another bad day, I hope everyone in NSW will be ok too.

  A request, does anyone have a link to the speech where Julia said "There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead, but be assured I will price carbon" Someone asked me for it this morning as they had not heard the whole piece due to the bias in the MSM, he is even a labor supporter & has not heard the whole sentence, just goes to show you how effective the MSM propaganda is.

  Why can't they take the Sea King helicopters that the Navy is scrapping, refit them as water bombing helos & give them to each state, they are the only! large helos that can land on the water too.?  

KHTAGH

January 8. 2013 11:01 AM

bob macalba

Gravel
you got no problems, i read your posts and in the ballpark you belong,  
also happy that im not the only one with a 'dyslexic' mind,

cheers

bob macalba

January 8. 2013 11:03 AM

Ad astra

KHTAGH
It's good to hear from you.  We all hope the very hot weather soon abates.  But I fear it may be a trend we have to live with as the planet warms.  Can't the sceptics accept that global warming looks like it is the culprit and give the planet the benefit of any doubt that still lives in their sceptical minds.

Ad astra

January 8. 2013 11:12 AM

LadyInRed

TT - I can take offence and still hold you in regard. A difference of opinion does not an enemy make. I call it like I see it. Credlin did what she did, she did it because she felt it was the right thing to do, I don't have to call her names, or resort to jokes at her expense, to put forward a view that I do not think what she did will help Tones, if that was her intent. She probably thought it would help. It certainly reminds women that if they think they can put off having children until in their 40's then they run the risk of having to resort to IVF.


I actually think Andrew Elder pegged it for me. Tony supports women who support him.....so what. Its what he does to other women who he feels threatened by, or thwarted by, that is the issue here.

Credlin talks of asking Tones about abortion and his qualifying statement (bear in mind this is to a woman who is trying to conceive). It should be safe, it should be legal, it should be rare. Apparently his answer satisfied her that he was not threatening to remove the right. It is his qualification on abortion that is the issue, it should be rare......is he implying that women misuse it? or perhaps use it as a means of birth control. I find that offensive. Does he mean rare on a national scale? Or does he mean for an individual once is OK twice is an abuse? Or does he mean us woman should get our birth control together so that abortion is not needed, so men like him would not have to suffer the indignities of having to think about it? So many questions.

LadyInRed

January 8. 2013 11:33 AM

DMW

Ken,
thanks you have furthered my edumification Smile

The points you raise on includ(ing) a section on media opportunities and policy driven evidence explain a fair bit to me and confirm a few suspicions and cynicisms of mine about 'the system'

DMW

January 8. 2013 11:37 AM

LadyInRed

PREMIER Campbell Newman could not retain his seat of Ashgrove and attempts would be found by the LNP to find him a safer one before the next state election, most likely Moggill, now held by dumped former Housing Minister Bruce Flegg.

www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/.../

On a different note altogether this for anyone who really loves birds of prey......fabulous!:


www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/.../

LadyInRed

January 8. 2013 11:44 AM

Gravel

Knee High

Thanks.  Please let us know when you contact your friend, I feel he will be okay.  Sorry about the loss of bees. It is fascinating that they remove their own dead.  When things settle down, I'd love to hear more about their behaviour.

Gravel

January 8. 2013 11:54 AM

42 long

The Catholic Church believes that you copulate only to procreate. They have never coped with sex. They have incredible conflict with it. Mary's conception  with Jesus had to be immaculate,so SEX must be sinfull. even though GOD made US in HIS (masculine HE) image. Isn't THAT a conceit?. If HE SHE IT doesn't abide anywhere on this planet, exclusively, why would he share our biology?
  WE have evolved with this planet. we are of it like every other creature living here. If we did it anywhere else or even did it again we would probably be unrecogniseable to what we are now.
   How can you trust people that are constrained like this to run a country?. To some it is only a preparation for the next world and the end of this one doesn't bother them at all. They know where they are going . The rest can go to hell! Charming.

42 long

January 8. 2013 12:07 PM

42 long

  Anyhow going from th sublime to the earthly, contrast the treatment of Slipper going to court over an amount of something like 900$ for infringing a provision about going out of Canberra that is easily overlooked to Peter Reith who lent his card to a relative and had the option of Paying the 50k back which he did. Would he have done so if he was not exposed? Was there ever a suggestion of going to court.  No way.

42 long

January 8. 2013 12:11 PM

DMW

I've just undertaken a very dangerous mission.

I've just read Paula Mathewson's article @TheDrum :
Don't make people vote: make them want to
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4455486.html

That wasn't the dangerous mission though. The dangerous bit comes in if you are game enough to read the comments.

But today, some good news, I survived, (ok I know some might wish otherwise some days and I can live with that Tong ) and I found an actual gem of a comment that, for me, weirdly encapsulates the perversity of us Aussies.

Den Nordiska Heerefolket 08 Jan 2013 9:20:35am
You know the problem with us Aussies? When we're not slavishly copying other countries we're doing something unique. It needs to stop!

They, sorry, we need to stop slavishly following other countries AND start slavishly following other countries


It takes a bit of thinking about and it hits a bent nail with a crooked hammer very well.

DMW

January 8. 2013 12:18 PM

LadyInRed

Tweet from @TonyAbbottMHR

I'm now on my way to Sydney to be on standby with my local fire brigade. Important to follow fire warnings and advice today


Perfect just what RFS need a media throng surrounding Tones. Does anyone here think he will send the media away? Please no photo's.....please let me get on with my 'very important work for the people of Australia'. No...please no doorstop interviews....I insist. The Tony I know......

LadyInRed

January 8. 2013 12:29 PM

LadyInRed

http://twitter.yfrog.com/ocmd2yfdj

Its one of those pictures that made me laugh and then actually it made me sad in its irony. Its so very close to the truth.

LadyInRed

January 8. 2013 12:33 PM

DMW

Further to today's stroll through the Newspaper Front Pages and the ponderings it caused on Slipper vs Warnie vs Dramatic Pics of Fires.

I am guessing that things haven't changed that much when it comes to choosing what to put on the front page of the paper.

One thing to understand is, whether we like to admit it or not, we are all a bit voyeuristic. No matter how hard we try and tell ourselves we find it difficult not to 'rubberneck' as we drive past an accident.

Back to the newsroom. More often than not the first question asked when trying to choose which story to lead with is: Which will sell more papers? .

My take on the day is that pics of blazing infernos and the antics of Warnie appeal more to the voyeur in us than some dull, colourless and boring taxi voucher (alleged) rort.

DMW

January 8. 2013 12:35 PM

42 long

LiR
  What Bullshit from Abbott. Just words. Actionman if he really cared would have had something to say about his favourite state leaders  ( the 3 eastern ones ) who have reduced fire fighting capabilities in a misdirected attempt to save money. In the current circumstances, this action could have been regarded as extremely negligent if not criminal. If these states were a workplace and Ted, BoF and Can do were the employer and anyone could be seen to have died or lost property or be injured they could be proscecuted. What is any different? They should be called to brook.

42 long

January 8. 2013 12:48 PM

TalkTurkey

First to you Dear Grasshopper,

Poor Tassie, we all in every State know the terrors and tragedy of bushfires, poor poor people lose everything, Dog knows how much wildlife habitat, that's the thing that can never be brought back. But you are safe, and it has been to you as our correspondent to whom our thoughts turn first, we have even seen some of your local trees as if through your own eyes, that is an eerie (or rather eye~ie) experience. May your beloved garden and bees bounce back now.

WRT ex-RAAF helicopters, no-one has ever been able to explain to me why our armed forces and all its equipment is never called in to help. What do they do instead, polish boots?

If anyone can tell me the reason heavy bombers and helicopters and armed forces personnel can't be used to fight bushfires, I'd be obliged.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  

Folks about my whinge last night, I know the matters are small really but perceived slights smart and it is better to air them, and it's not really about me anyway, it is about the heading, Judgmentalism. My few gripes are just indicators of the sorts of things that can engender resentment which can then become enmities. I say pretty much what I like about those external to TPS whom I perceive as political enemies, provided  not slanderous nor obscene nor untrue; but in the TPS family I really think good manners and sensitivity to other Comrades is vital.

Anyway thanks Michael, I'm glad you didn't mean me, and LiR, yes of course we are friends. Janice thanks for your input,only I didn't "chide" the woman (chide:rebuke or scold) at all, nor ridicule her, I merely pointed it out that she had the meaning 180-degrees wrong. In the same spirit as friend telling friend his fly is undone, or that she has lipstick on her teeth.

"Oh Dawg, please don't let me be misunderstood."

Then there's Greensborough Growler, well he can insult me if he wants, he's avowedly not one of *Us* anyway, but when he calls what a number of us here, including our Moderator, have thought a worthwhile exercise a 'silly game' then he is really rubbing me the wrong way on TPS's account.

As for PvO I haven't heard from him in a couple of days but I will keep raisng the issue, it's up to him now. I don't think there can be a time for his visit, ain't like he's Royalty anyway, (and note, at age 11 I turned my back on the Queen at Wayville Showgrounds, I'm not one to defer to celebs other than genuine heroes of the Struggle).

PvO might yet become one of these. I am dead-set that he will not be subject to personal attacks here, as I would defend anyone here against uncalled for attacks; but equally, I will feel free to criticise where I think he's wrong.

I'm'a write another post specifically on Pvo and how we might use correspondence with him to some advantage, both to us and potentially to him.

TalkTurkey

January 8. 2013 01:01 PM

LadyInRed

Agreed 42 long. I live in QLD and my partner is in the RFS. I'm an atheist so I understood your comment on the Church.

I didn't know that about Reith and the telecard incident (see below). It does rather look like if Slipper can argue his case well enough that he did not intend to misuse but rather it was a point that he was unaware of he will possibly just get a slap on the hand and be made to pay the money back.

Albeit Reith's misuse had a more 'tug at your heart strings' twang on it. But essentially he did give his son use of a commenwealth entitlement, which he thought would run into a few dollars not the 50K it did (wow that's a lot), the fact remains he did not check. Niether did Slipper. So precendence has been set. I note Howard did not sack his minister.

www.ethics.org.au/.../sorry-it-hanging-offence

LadyInRed

January 8. 2013 01:01 PM

DMW

There is something very odd to me in the charges being bought against Mr Slipper over the misuse of Cabcharge vouchers:

From the report in today's Oz:
The summons relates to allegations that Mr Slipper took three unauthorised trips outside the Canberra area in 2010, at a cost of about $900 to taxpayers.

The alleged trips are understood to be in breach of a little-known restriction on MPs using hire cars or Cabcharge dockets to cross state borders.


I'm befuddled. There are quite a number of members and senators who, when the come to Canberra, actually doss down in Queanbeyan which, to the best of my knowledge, is still in NSW, that is 'across the border'.

Most of those members and senators who doss down in Queanbeyan would have, at one time or another, used a Cabcharge voucher to travel across the border.

I am missing something here but I don't know what.

If you really feel the need to read the article in the Oz click on the link that pops up on this page: http://goo.gl/0LGGf

DMW

January 8. 2013 01:22 PM

KHTAGH

Shit we have 80!! knot winds now, this is going to cause major problems, burnt trees falling like dominoes everywhere.

KHTAGH

January 8. 2013 01:24 PM

KHTAGH

Southerly's so NSW will get them in a few hrs

KHTAGH

January 8. 2013 01:27 PM

DMW

LIR,
the key 'thing' for Mr Slipper is Section 44 of the constitution.

Australian Constitution - Section 44 - Disqualification
Any person who-
...
(ii.) Is attained of treason, or has been convicted and is under sentence, or subject to be sentenced, for any offence punishable under the law of the Commonwealth or of a State by imprisonment for one year or longer

http://australianpolitics.com/text/44.shtml

My bush lawyer's mate reckons that if Slipper (and any member or senator) is convicted of an offence where the penalty is twelve months or longer they would be disqualified no matter if they sentenced to less than 12 months or 'just' fined.

Like any of these things we could ask three different lawyers and end up at least four opinions but the key appears to be not to convicted. I think 'no conviction recorded' might just be ok.

Maybe we could ask Mary-Jo Maceraena for some advice Smile

DMW

January 8. 2013 01:47 PM

MWS

DMW, ex-Senator Fisher had no conviction recorded after she was found guilty of assaulting a security guard, so she was not disqualified.  She resigned after being charged (but not yet convicted) for a second shoplifting offence, so section 44 was not invoked.

KHTAGH, here is one of the PM's quotes in The Australian, on the eve of the 2010 election.  Note that the quote is one sentence, but opponents routinely ignore the first half - which clearly states her position.

www.theaustralian.com.au/.../story-fn59niix-1225907522983

Apparently there was another quote, I think from a Channel Ten interview, which was similar.  If you want to find a quote, put the actual words inside quotation marks in the search engine.  That way the results returned will only be the actual quote, not similar words.  It's also a good way to find old poems when you can only remember fragments!

MWS

January 8. 2013 01:50 PM

KHTAGH

yeehaaa its raining too!!!!!

KHTAGH

January 8. 2013 02:04 PM

DMW

MWS,
thanks, that pretty well summarises my bush lawyer's mate's very long winded and convoluted explanation which I didn't bother boring everybody with Smile

DMW

January 8. 2013 02:08 PM

MWS

DMW, unlike a lawyer, I don't get paid by the word!

MWS

January 8. 2013 02:13 PM

DMW

MWS
it is a good thing I don't have to pay by the word to comment here

Today alone would have set me back a pretty penny or three Smile

DMW

January 8. 2013 02:20 PM

Ad astra

KHTAGH
May it keep on raining!

Ad astra

January 8. 2013 02:22 PM

Ad astra

MWS
Thank you.  Link bookmarked.

Ad astra

January 8. 2013 02:29 PM

MWS

This is a year old, but I am amazed to see how the media in Britain "works."

This month, I questioned the credentials of the alternative weather forecasters used by the Daily Mail, the Express, the Telegraph and the Sun. I suggested that their qualifications were inadequate, their methods inscrutable and their results unreliable. I highlighted the work of these two companies: Exacta Weather and Positive Weather Solutions (PWS).

Now the story has become more interesting: do the people from Positive Weather Solutions, making its forecasts and quoted in news articles, exist?


[BTW, the Daily Mail is not owned by Murdoch, and the parent company owns some media in Australia.]

www.guardian.co.uk/.../weather-forecasters-daily-mail

MWS

January 8. 2013 02:55 PM

LadyInRed

Thanks DMW - if Slipper gets convicted he gets convicted, he will just have to let due process do its job. I am not a lawyer. But I do know The Sunshine Coast Daily has been after Slipper for some time.

Tones is out digging in the trash for some of those same old same old lines....tired, boring. He'd want to watch out the twitterverse is after him.

"Why did the Prime Minister ever think that the gentleman in question was fit and proper to be the Speaker of our country?'' Mr Abbott told reporters in Brisbane today.

Probably for the same reason the Libs kept pre-selecting him for the seat of Fischer, and why Tones attended his wedding.....yaddah yadha.

Why does Tones think Brough is fit to be a minister!

LadyInRed

January 8. 2013 02:59 PM

Psyclaw

DMW

Perhaps you are confusing lawyers with economists.

The meanings of "convicted" and "for any offence punishable" would be widely interpreted by the vast majority of lawyers/judges using the ordinary meaning of those words. Some of the more "conscientious" lawyers would add further evidence from the actual records of discussions in the Constitution Convention in the late 1800s about s 44 (ii), to confirm their view.

It is worth noting that the Commonwealth law on this matter is seen as far harsher than the states, where the actual sentence is considered ie "punished" by a sentence greater than one year, rather than "punishable".  eg  See:

www.aph.gov.au/.../03CIB22

For this reason of harshness I expect that Mr Slipper even if found guilty will have no conviction recorded and s 44(ii) will not apply.

This is an example of the many deficiencies in our Constitution. Note that the section also says punishable "under any law of the C/w or State".

So the political whim of a premier waging a "let's get tough on crime" campaign and increasing potential sentences could lead to action (sacking) against a federal MP that would not be taken against a state MP in the same circumstances (the state MP would have to be actually sentenced to >1year; not so for the federal MP where the potential, not the actual sentence would count)

Psyclaw

January 8. 2013 03:05 PM

LadyInRed

Look aaah....(head nodding....looking important.....lick the lips.....aah....string it out for as long as possible)....Why does the aaaaah Prime Minister......(rock back and forth slightly for effect)......think that the gentleman in question.....aaah... was a fit and proper person......(rock back and forth....look stern....lick lips)....to be the speaker of our country (lots of head nodding.....lots of head nodding....the look of righteous indignation on his face).

Honestly I can imagine him up at the pulpit telling everyone how to live their lives!

Mal Brough?.....run for cover.

LadyInRed

January 8. 2013 03:13 PM

LadyInRed

Tones didn't think it was a problem back in 2010! oooops, no problem he'll just ignore it or trot off if some journo actually doing their job brings it up:


www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/.../

LadyInRed

January 8. 2013 03:13 PM

Jason

LIR,
   I thought the same thing with Slipper, if he is good enough to be the endorsed candidate he's good enough to be speaker.
No amount of weasel words from Abbott will change my mind, I mean how can Abbott now argue that Slipper's Alleged "crookedness" was OK so long as he sat on the back bench?

Jason

January 8. 2013 03:15 PM

Psyclaw

DMW 1.01pm

"I am missing something here but I don't know what."

I think that what you are missing is that the AFP has been sucked into this political matter and is adopting a "letter of the law" approach. They would prefer (and IMHO they would anticipate) that the magistrate/judge will use his common sense to end it by recording no conviction.

There are many examples available of MPs who have claimed the wrong expenses inadvertently and the matter has been resolved by the MP refunding the error amount.

On the facts we know thus far there is no way that such "offences" would ever be referred to the AFP by the Department of Finance. This minor one, which looks and sounds like an inadvertency, simply got linked to the major (blank cabcharge) travel smear about which Justice Rares was so scathing, and the AFP's small gonads didn't allow it to bed the matter down.

Psyclaw

January 8. 2013 03:25 PM

42 long

  Well justify that one, you lawyers.  The outcome is not known till the process is completed, but the potential is judged to apply. The law IS an ass.
   Abbott carping on. IF slippers such a crook ( and don't forget that he hasn't been judged by the court, YET) HE, Abbott should re run the leadership contest that got him the leadership. Remember he beat Turnbull by one vote and in that total was slipper's vote.
   Gillards party back her by a substantial majority,and after all who labor run as leader is THEIR business Tony.
   Abbott specialises in character assassinations and ruining peoples reputations. He is getting a bad reputation by his own actions entirely. No-one else to blame. YOU are on the nose Tony.  

42 long

January 8. 2013 03:30 PM

LadyInRed

Psyclaw I agree. Jason....ooooh I am so cranky.

I imagine this would normally be dealt with and resolved by the minster reinbursing the amount in error. But just like AshbyGate rather than deal with the complaint via the proper channels it has been escalated and as far as Ashby's claim is concerned rightly been thrown out as an abuse of the courts time. Perhaps this will be too? Though probably not as ceremoniously as Ashby.

Really Tones should have got all this dealt with properly when it was first brought up, but it didn't suit him then, and it does now. So the question for Tones is.....why didn't he deal with it in 2010?

Second question 'does Tones think Mal Brough is a fit an proper person to be a candidate for the LNP'?

ooooh I hope it ends up sticking on him.


I'm having a cranky pants moment.

LadyInRed

January 8. 2013 03:46 PM

KHTAGH


Turnbull repays massive roaming bill charged to Aussie taxpayers

In October 2011, after returning from a stint in Hong Kong, France, Germany, and the UK, the shadow minister received a hefty global roaming charge of AU$13,608.04 for use of his mobile device overseas. Turnbull accumulated a total of AU$26,368.26 in telecommunications charges for the period, and this was paid for by the taxpayer and released in six-monthly reporting by the Department of Finance and Deregulation last year.

www.zdnet.com/.../

KHTAGH

January 8. 2013 03:52 PM

Psyclaw

42 Long

Just a by the by .....

The immaculate conception refers to the fact that Mary, the future "mother of god" was herself "immaculately conceived" and this refers to the fact that unlike all the rest of us, she was spared the trauma of having her soul blackened by "original sin" at the point of her conception.

You may know that this area of religiosity of the Christian variety holds that every beautiful newborn comes into the world with his / her soul already "blackened" by original sin, ie as a result of the offence committed by Mr Adam and Ms???? (or Mrs) Eve in a garden of pleasure, some years back when they ate one apple too many.

The newborn is cleansed of "original sin" by baptism (or christening).

The "virgin birth" on the other hand refers to the fact that the embryonic Jesus didn't get into Mary's uterus by an act of copulatory pleasure (or displeasure, as the case may be). Rather, God put him there by remote control so to speak.

See:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

Psyclaw

January 8. 2013 03:56 PM

KHTAGH

Liberalism — Australia’s forgotten ideology

IF ABC’s Q&A has taught us anything last year, it’s that our collective nostalgia for the leadership of Malcolm Turnbull shows no sign of abating. Since losing the Liberal Party leadership in 2009, Turnbull has been busy cultivating a public image as a principled and considered statesman.

www.independentaustralia.net/.../

KHTAGH

January 8. 2013 04:02 PM

KHTAGH

Psyclaw

  God put him there by remote control so to speak.

  Is not impregnation without consent rape?

KHTAGH

January 8. 2013 04:06 PM

bob macalba

The Peter Slipper 'allegations'
A jaunt around the vineyards apparently

www.brisbanetimes.com.au/.../...0130108-2cea4.html

and abborts still trying to palm responsibility on to Labor

bob macalba

January 8. 2013 04:07 PM

Ken

Just a quick comment on the Slipper case.

Crossing State borders is always an issue with hire cars.  I recall being on the Gold Coast some years back and we hired a car for a few days.  Hidden in the agreement was that the car could only be used in Queensland - we had hired it with the intention of visiting friends near Ballina. [We still went, but had to be extremely careful when we ran into a severe storm on the way back.]

Agree that normally a matter like this should gave been handled by the Department of Finance and a refund sought.

Commonwealth laws have always had much higher penalties that equivalent State laws.  During the Vietnam moratorium, police could often get us out of offices in which we were sitting-in, by reminding us that, as Commonwealth property, we would be charged under Commonwealth law - and that meant $2000 fine and/or 2 years gaol for trespass!!!

Ken

January 8. 2013 04:08 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Amazing.

Slipper is a proven sleaze, demonstrably a rorter of his travel allowances and entitlements. But…it is the AFP who have been “suckered in”

He’s a sleazy rorter, but fine to be the most senior member of the HoR.

Even Gillard doesn’t want him back.

Slipper resigned because Oakeshott and Windsor told him they would no longer support him blame them!
-----------------
..and just to recap.

Gillard did the sleazy deal with the sleazy Slipper because she lied to Wilkie to obtain his support. She broke her word, and rather than face the consequences of her actions she recruited a sleaze to provide support!

Tom of Melbourne

January 8. 2013 04:18 PM

LadyInRed

Psyclaw....you cite one of the many reasons why I am an atheist.

LadyInRed

January 8. 2013 04:19 PM

Jason

January 8. 2013 12:18 PM



Tweet from @TonyAbbottMHR

I'm now on my way to Sydney to be on standby with my local fire brigade. Important to follow fire warnings and advice today

LIR, if you thought it couldn't get any sillier "The Courier Mail" has managed to turn it into a "Story"!


TONY Abbott is on standby with his local fire brigade as NSW nervously awaits the outbreak of new bushfires.

The federal opposition leader flew back from a political engagement in Brisbane on Tuesday morning to join forces with Davidson Rural Fire Brigade, on Sydney's bushfire-prone north shore.
www.couriermail.com.au/.../story-e6freono-1226549461041

Jason

January 8. 2013 04:26 PM

Jason

ToM,
   Yes and Jesus wept!

Jason

January 8. 2013 04:36 PM

LadyInRed

Jason

What can I say? I guess we will get Pyne and Bishop telling us all about the Tony I know. He would be a hindrance, plain and simple. Firstly, he puts everyone at risk in that area of some nutter setting a fire just to see him turn up in his firey outfit. Can someone please turn a hose on him. Grandstanding, look at me, look at me. Let's hope he doesn't turn up in his smugglers, its more than I can stand.

Yep its official I'm a cranky pants today!

LadyInRed

January 8. 2013 04:38 PM

Psyclaw

Khtagh

Nup.

Just plain old magic!

Psyclaw

January 8. 2013 04:47 PM

KHTAGH

Psyclaw

  Just plain old magic!


   One of those good old miracle thingies I suppose. Funny how they lost the "how to do miracles book" 2000 yrs ago. Maybe Tones could call upstairs & gets some immaculate conception underway for Peta.

KHTAGH

January 8. 2013 04:51 PM

Psyclaw

42 long

"Well justify that one, you lawyers.  The outcome is not known till the process is completed, but the potential is judged to apply. The law IS an ass."

If you are referring to s 44 (ii) of the constitution, then you are spot on.

But unfortunately the wise souls who wrote the constitution included important governmental "architecture" which arguably should not ever change, and as well they included what we now call "regulations" which never stand the fullest test of time, and need to be flexibly changed with changing times ...... relatively petty stuff which it should be up to each generation to consider, such as s 44 (ii).

To add insult to injury, the old goats set what has turned out to be almost an impossible hurdle to change the constitution (>50% of the electorate and >50% of states).

Imagine trying to change s 44 (ii) ...... the lunatic fringe in the MSM would only have to say once "here are the pollies lowering the bar for themselves vis a vis their criminal behaviour ..... more feather nesting" and bingo  ..... the referendum would fail.

Psyclaw

January 8. 2013 04:52 PM

Jason

KHTAGH,
      You know you shouldn't poke fun at Peta! ToM is just itching to be outraged on her behalf again!

Jason

January 8. 2013 04:52 PM

Tom of Melbourne

I’ll make 2 points.

1.  “Smugglers” I’m a member of a surf lifesaving club. Though I no longer patrol, that’s up to younger people. “Budgie smugglers” is the term often used by drunk bogans when they see a surf lifesaver in their speedos. The same drunk bogans swim are inclined to out beyond the break and would drown if the volunteer lifesavers didn’t rescue them.
As far as I can see, Abbott has only worn speedos during surf lifesaving activities or during an ocean swim.

“Budgie smugglers” is used by people who fail to appreciate the activities of volunteer life savers.

2.  People should applaud volunteer fire fighters, whoever they are. It certainly saves the taxpayer plenty, and is a vital service.

I suppose there aren’t many fat lazy types that volunteer, they’re more inclined to criticise those that do volunteer to provide vital public safety activities.

Tom of Melbourne

January 8. 2013 04:53 PM

bob macalba

KHTAGH

Good call on the southerly, making its way up the NSW coast,
saw it as an alert on sky,  raining still i hope?

bob macalba

January 8. 2013 05:02 PM

LadyInRed

Guess I'm a bogan now as well as a cranky pants.

This tweet is nicely put:

@harrypusspuss
Look, he's either the LOTO or an action man. He needs to get rid of the photo op mentality (eg Trucker Tony).

Next he'll be learning to fly a water bomber heli copter.

LadyInRed

January 8. 2013 05:06 PM

LadyInRed

I've never been called a bogan before. So I had to look it up:

The term bogan is:

pejorative or self-deprecating, for an individual who is recognised to be from an unsophisticated background or someone whose limited education, speech, clothing, attitude and behaviour exemplifies a lack of manners and education

Gee its not nice.

LadyInRed

January 8. 2013 05:07 PM

Jason

ToM,
   So when you're not being critical of us what are you doing for the community?
Do you have anything of substance to complain about or is it just the usual dross you go on about?

Jason

January 8. 2013 05:17 PM

bob macalba

LiR

Dont know if you have seen any of these before

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmJQxFoHfLw

being an atheist myself watching these guys is fun

cheers

bob macalba

January 8. 2013 05:19 PM

Jason

LIR,
   Bogans are also me! We wear flannelette shirts blue singlets, those who still have hair usually have "mullets"!Usually the Bogan lives in the poorer suburbs but now that we have mining jobs we live where we like!

Checkout Chris Franklin's offering
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-IPcVaif3Q

Jason

January 8. 2013 05:24 PM

Gravel

LadyInRed

The cranky pants really suit you, just your style and colour.  It would be fun if you wore them more often. Smile Smile

Gravel

January 8. 2013 05:28 PM

DMW

Psyclaw, KHTAGH,
Surely it was IVF and there is a bloke who would be able to spin a yarn about how he took his fridge back in time to help make it all happen like it was important for Australia (and the world) apparently.

Guess that yarn might have to wait until after he gets his hose out of his hand

DMW

January 8. 2013 05:30 PM

Pikiranku

KneeHigh
So very glad to hear you're okay and having a respite, for the time being at least.  
You'll be surrounded, though, by some very fragile people and for much longer than you all think.  I lived and worked in the Adelaide Hills during the 1980s so I have firsthand experience of the devastation that bushfires cause individuals and communities.  Long after everyone else has moved on and forgotten it all, the people directly involved are still in pain. It's an experience that can change a person forever.  But you'll also experience unexpected and unforgettable generosity and goodwill - from friends, acquaintances and total strangers.  
Stay strong and take care. We're thinking of you.

Pikiranku

January 8. 2013 05:37 PM

Pikiranku

Re that link to the Brisbane Times and the article about Peter Slipper, I know this is not central to the real issue but where's the logic here?

First they tell us that the loss of Slipper's vote could threaten the government's fragile majority, then we have this:

"Labor has 76 votes to the Coalition's 74 (if Green Adam Bandt, independents Craig Thomson, Andrew Wilkie, Rob Oakeshott and Tony Windsor are counted with Labor and Bob Katter, Tony Crook and Peter Slipper are counted with the opposition)."

Can someone tell me, if you're counting Peter Slipper with the opposition, how his departure could adversely affect the government?

Don't these journos re-read anything they write any more?


Pikiranku

January 8. 2013 05:38 PM

DMW

Ken
in this case it is hire car as in upmarket taxi, not rental car as in Avis, Hertz etc.

DMW

January 8. 2013 05:44 PM

LadyInRed

Phew no smugglers:

www.flickr.com/.../photostream

LadyInRed

January 8. 2013 05:58 PM

KHTAGH

Bob
   raining still i hope?

  Nope very brief, enough to make the sand stick to my gumboots nothing else. :-(

KHTAGH

January 8. 2013 06:03 PM

LadyInRed

bob macalba

hmmmm I can't get my head around the thought patterns. The thought that there is a God up there sorting through the souls .....ok you go here next to Rasputin and Hitler and the likes, and you go over there in the destined for MotherTheresaVille.....I can't be doing it. Intelligent design is just not backed up with any facts whatsoever.

LadyInRed

January 8. 2013 06:09 PM

KHTAGH

LIR

Intelligent design is just not backed up with any facts whatsoever.

  Neither is the Mad Monk, but it doesn't slow him down in the eyes of the MSM, facts don't matter anymore.

KHTAGH

January 8. 2013 06:22 PM

LadyInRed

Jason

Flannel now what a great fabric that is, so durable and warm without being too hot, perfect for the Queensland winter climate, checks I love them!. Oh and the blue singlet, but I'm going to have to spruce it up with a nice chunky necklace and a few bangles and perhaps a scarf tied jauntily around my neck....and the beer....and oh so many other wonderful bogan type adventues for me to have perhaps using a plastic blowup swimming pool as a beer chiller and all because now I am a ......bogan! albeit a cranky one.

LadyInRed

January 8. 2013 06:30 PM

Ken

DMW

I realise the hire car difference but the legal principle is the same (mainly for insurance purposes, as I understand it)that they can only operate in the "State" where they are registered.  Also in Canberra, those "hire cars" often operate like taxis.

KHTAGH

Earlier link to the IA article about small "l" liberalism.  I had read it previously but, even before that, had commented here on TPS that the current LNP has no room for "liberals" - see above 2 January 8:16 p.m.  Glad to see someone else has picked up "my idea"!!

As to Abbott volunteering with his local fire brigade and other comments about "bogans". I grew up in the western suburbs of Sydney and as far as we, then, were concerned, the North Shore and all the posh bastards there could burn!  We certainly wouldn't cry over any losses on the North Shore!!

Ken

January 8. 2013 06:42 PM

Ken

Lady in Red

[quote]hmmmm I can't get my head around the thought patterns. The thought that there is a God up there sorting through the souls .....[quote]

What we need is an annual version of Dante's "Inferno" (as one of my history lecturers at uni said many years ago).  Dante had difficulty with the church's view of Hell because it meant that "pagans" like Aristotle, Plato, etc, would have to go to Hell.  Dante, as an educated man, had problems with that and created a multi-layered Hell where conditions got worse the further one went down.  He placed the Greek philosophers in the topmost level but, interestingly, placed the Pope at the time in the lowest level!!

Ken

January 8. 2013 06:52 PM

Ken

42 long

Sorry to add anotehr comment but still catching up with earlier posts after being ona bit of a fire watch here in Canberra most of the day.

HE, Abbott should re run the leadership contest that got him the leadership. Remember he beat Turnbull by one vote and in that total was slipper's vote.

Agree entirely.  He has been so strong on the Government accepted tainted votes (Thomson) how does he justify accepting Slipper's vote in his "win".  Someone should actually have the bollocks (or more politely "round objects") to ask him!!!!!

Ken

January 8. 2013 07:32 PM

bob macalba


check out the coming weather forecast..not good

SA going to bear the brunt of it

www.smh.com.au/.../...p-purple-20130108-2ce33.html

bob macalba

January 8. 2013 07:41 PM

MWS

I wonder if ex-Senator Fisher voted for Tony Abbott?  Surely her vote would be more tainted than Slipper's!

MWS

January 8. 2013 08:02 PM

DMW

Psyclaw @ 2:59 PM,
Perhaps you are confusing lawyers with economists.

No confusion really. I do know that 'joke' is usually applied to economists. Equally it could easily be applied to lawyers as well, in that, one of the many ways that lawyers make their money is by arguing over the meaning of words in the law and also the 'intentions' of law-makers when they legislated 'the law'.

As the old saw from the old wild west goes:
... ride into a town with only one lawyer and you will find a very poor man. Ride into a town with two lawyers and you will find two very rich men.

It illustrates that lawyers make their money by 'disagreeing' and arguing the toss over the meanings of words etc.

So while not strictly accurate in the interpretations you noted it still is a 'reasonable generalisation' to assert that by asking three lawyers you could likely get four opinions.

DMW

January 8. 2013 08:14 PM

DMW

[party pooper on]
The sort of reasonable suggestion that Abbott should think about a re-run of the leadership ballot which he won by one vote and that was allegedly Peter Slipper's vote overlooks a few simple facts.

Every other person in the party room on that day in 2009 who voted for Abbott could claim that it was their vote that was the one that he needed.

More importantly since that fateful day the make up of the party room has changed. Some who either voted for or against Abbott are no longer there. There are more members of the Liberal party room than there were in 2009 and many of those new members of the party room believe that if it wasn't for Abbott they wouldn't be there so could feel obligated to vote for him.

It really is a waste of time and brain power to even think it is a 'valid' argument

[/party pooper off]

DMW

January 8. 2013 08:20 PM

DMW

Just love this:

Possum Comitatus ‏@Pollytics
Good political campaigns are a bit like a good risotto - simple ingredients, distinct flavours used sparingly, and lots and lots of stirring

DMW

January 8. 2013 09:05 PM

MWS

DMW, I'm well aware that the question is hypothetical.  Just interesting, considering that Abbott said that Slipper's (and Thomson's) votes were "tainted".

We shouldn't let Abbott forget that the alleged possible fraud occurred in 2010, before Slipper recontested his seat of Fisher as a Coalition MHR.

I wonder if any other parliamentarians are feeling nervous tonight - did they ever cross from the ACT into NSW the same way Slipper apparently did?

Are the state boundaries neatly marked by the side of the road, or do you need a map?  What happens if you follow a detour that takes you over the border?

MWS

January 9. 2013 12:23 AM

Psyclaw

DMW @8.02pm

Regarding my statement "Perhaps you are confusing lawyers with economists."

Joke Joyce!

I wasn't actually inviting argument about the legal profession. Nor do I propose to participate in such.

The integral substance of my comment focussed on the harshness of the C/w legislation, vis a vis the states, and the inappropriate rigidity of the constitution in some areas.

Psyclaw

January 9. 2013 07:09 AM

Michael

This article www.smh.com.au/.../...forecast-20130108-2cep8.html is an important read.

It is also, tangentially, and NOT taking aim at anyone here, supportive of the thesis I would maintain that a gaggle of (Olympic Games ideal) amateurs bring more to the formation of conversation-forwarding ideas than a self-conscious cohort of patch-protecting experts seeking to assert supposedly individuated 'fact'.

In short, what The Political Sword does best is encapsulated by the list of commentators who've ever posted here in the lead-off to this thread - there are lots of us offering voice, some more regularly than others, but the point of contact, the site, is not locked off to any comer. Except for the vile, of course.

Michael

January 9. 2013 07:49 AM

DMW

Psyclaw,
not sure if it is just weird or something else but when I read your previous comment I almost responded:

It's just a Joke Joyce

however I wrote something else. I didn't expect an argument or any defence of lawyers, well, simply because there is no argument and lawyers cannot be defended Tong *

Your commentary on the finer points helped and filled in some gaps in peoples knowledge. Thank you.

* Joke Joyce

DMW

January 9. 2013 08:32 AM

Psyclaw

DMW

"however I wrote something else. I didn't expect an argument or any defence of lawyers, well, simply because there is no argument and lawyers cannot be defended"

Yet again:

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php   **

** joke joyce

Psyclaw

January 9. 2013 08:41 AM

bob macalba


sleep.... none...what a shocker, 31.9f  at 3;30 this morning
hottest night i can remember

bob macalba

January 9. 2013 08:48 AM

DMW

From the Newspapers ...
   What the front pages are saying

via Front Pages Today - http://goo.gl/enTjx

The Australian - http://goo.gl/3bnTO
Roxon’s laws draw flak from media
How suprisement - the meeja kicking a minister paywalled follow first link - Ed
http://goo.gl/EWPPO
Holding the line: states withstand nature’s worst
Perks of Office (Guess who) -Ed

The Sydney Morning Herald - http://goo.gl/1kOHj
Facing the firestorm
Scorching temperatures go off the colour scale http://goo.gl/PGq5d

The Daily Telegraph - http://goo.gl/JXc7d
As NSW teeterd on the brink of catastrophe these boys were caught ...
PLAYING WITH FIRE
Plan for Muslim Enclave in Sydney's Suburbs

The Age - http://goo.gl/j6tKW
A Nation Burns
Outcry over surgery cash
Slipper's Wine Tours

The Herald Sun - http://goo.gl/0wNCf
HOMES BURN - Six in hospital as fires rage across Victoria
Lighten Up Sam (Stosur)
Stars Save Warnie

The Courier Mail - http://goo.gl/7NTLf
A good day for a splash
SWAMPED BY ERRORS - Watchdog stares down flood insurers

The Adelaide Advetiser - http://goo.gl/ApkdY
A Nation Under Fire
BABY-FACED CRIMINALS

The Hobart Mercury - http://goo.gl/J8x10
Beaconsfield mine hero takes charge ... A MAN FOR A CRISIS
More homes Evacuated - Highway from Hell - Donations flow in

The NT Times - http://goo.gl/7f7VB
LUXURY RESORT GUESTS FLEE BLAZE
New Doubts Open Speed Limit Return
Frown you can guess - how disappointment

DMW

January 9. 2013 09:02 AM

TalkTurkey

DMW Thanks for the Front Pages links, every picture tells a story but it's not necessarily the story it purports to. This will become a more telling page still as we approach the last quarter of the term. Yee-hah!

TalkTurkey

January 9. 2013 09:37 AM

bob macalba

Whenever i see a story put together by Judith Ireland i know its gonna be a beat up full of innuendos half facts and a collection of scenarios put together by 'friendly' experts in their field, who just so happen to agree with the angle Ireland is going for, which always seems to be..get Labor, damage Labor, embarrass Labor,  
wonder who she votes for

www.smh.com.au/.../...lic-dime-20130108-2cetk.html

bob macalba

January 9. 2013 09:39 AM

DMW

As I ambled through the front pages today (it's too hot for a gallop - even a Duane type one) I had no particular thoughts on why today's headlines were chosen and there were no real *stand outs* today.

I don't often provide an editorial comment but the Oz does often cause some that aren't fit to print Smile

Linking to the articles is haphazard and when I do I usually try to find it online with the exact same headline as in the paper. The other rule of thumb is that the article needs to be of 'real' interest and actually be 'news' and it can be tough actually finding real news some days.

I liked this (online) headline 'cos it played with words and has a bit of rhythm:
Jail a risk if Slipper wined, dined on public dime Jonathan Swan, Judith Ireland @NationalTimes
FORMER speaker Peter Slipper could be jailed if found guilty of a taxpayer-funded tour of top wineries using his government Cabcharge card, legal experts say.

''The starting point for this has got to be jail,'' said Rachel Bird, a criminal lawyer in Canberra, after reading the court summons for Mr Slipper released on Tuesday by the ACT Magistrates Court.

www.nationaltimes.com.au/.../...0130108-2cetk.html

From many angles the 'us and them' type pointer on the Tele's front page (about enclaves) irritate me and I get tempted to editorialise. I have run out of those sick bags that the airlines used to provide and we have to pay for plastic bags in the ACT so it gets difficult.

Holding my nose and with a bucket ready I will provide links:

Plan for Muslim housing enclave in Sydney suburbs  David Catt and Andrew Carswell @TheDailyTele
AN interest-free housing project aimed at the Muslim community and boasting 100 per cent halal housing has sparked a major row, with critics labelling it a discriminatory plan that could lead to a Muslim enclave.

Qartaba Homes' plan offers "100 per cent Halal housing to the growing Muslim community of Australia" in the heart of the northwestern Sydney suburb of Riverstone.

www.dailytelegraph.com.au/.../story-e6freuy9-1226549857355

... and how suprisement there is also an editorial:
Divided we fall victim of suspicion  Editorial @TheDailyTele
AUSTRALIA'S multicultural society is an example to the rest of the world of how people from diverse backgrounds can combine to build a peaceful and strong nation.

The key to our success is interaction between our various parts. As successive waves of immigrants have settled in Australia, from early Chinese arrivals to post-war Europeans and southeast Asians, each group has gradually blended into the broader community.

... the plan by Qartaba Homes to offer "100 per cent Halal housing to the growing Muslim community of Australia" in Sydney's west should be of concern.

www.dailytelegraph.com.au/.../story-e6frezz0-1226549815281

DMW

January 9. 2013 09:53 AM

bob macalba

Where are the crocs?
  think of the crocs
  doesnt anybody care anymore?
worry about them crocs
perhaps tomorrow one might show
another sleepless night .. poor crocs,

bob macalba

January 9. 2013 10:09 AM

Jason

For those who don't have CNN here is part 1 of the debate between Piers Morgan and Alex Jones, who wants Piers Morgan deported for his stance on guns.
Make of it what you will part 2 is also on the same page!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtyKofFih8Y

Jason

January 9. 2013 10:43 AM

DMW

Morning Jason,
I haven't seen one of our 'favourite' trolls - jj - for a real long time any clues?

thanks to psyclaw I finally figured jj was short for joke joyce (sorry very bad dad joke Frown )

DMW

January 9. 2013 10:53 AM

Jason

DMW,
   Not sure what happened to jj! Though I wish he'd come back.
He unlike our other troll at least had different subjects on which he'd speak. The current occupant just tries to dumb us to death with his petty points that have more holes than swiss cheese!

Jason

January 9. 2013 10:58 AM

DMW

Morning TT,
I have to say though some of the the front page pics of the fires and their aftermath are excellent. They portray the potential horror and heartbreak and grief vividly.

You are right, the headlines and some pics more often than not do mislead ... there are days when I trawl through them that I need a long shower after to cleanse.

bob
the lack of crocs is unforgivable and the other very notable absence from the eastern seaboard tabloids is ...

wait for it ...









SHARKS!

DMW

January 9. 2013 11:04 AM

42 long

The rapid fire personal gun disease of the US. How will they ever see sense? If miniature atomic bombs were available they would want everyone to have the right to bear those kind of arms too?
  Potential whacko's walking around carrying firepower that blows someone away with one shot. How can a policeman pull a car over knowing the occupant may be armed with this stuff? Disfunctional society still obsessed with thinking it has to protect itself from it's own government and professing to be the type of democracy that leads the world, and that all others should emulate.
   Note the postulation. WE elect our government freely YET need private militias to protect ourselves from it. Stark raving looney, people.... Highest rate of incarceration in the world.. widening gap between rich and poor. No real support for lower socio-economic groups  education and health problems Frequent vilification of said groups. death penalty widespread.. Denial of climate change reality widespread.
  Worship of wealth universal. ( plus a lot of more controversial issues)
   No wonder Obama has grey hair. WHO could do THAT JOB?

42 long

January 9. 2013 11:15 AM

MWS

George Monbiot on Australia's heatwave:

Climate change denial is almost a national pastime in Australia. People such as Andrew Bolt and Ian Plimer have made a career out of it. The Australian – owned by Rupert Murdoch – takes such extreme anti-science positions that it sometimes makes the Sunday Telegraph look like the voice of reason.

So far Abbott has commented, as far as I can tell, only on the fires: "Our thoughts are with the people and the communities across the country who are impacted by the bushfires," he says. Quite right too, but it's time his thoughts also extended to the question of why this is happening and how Australian politicians should respond. He says he's currently on standby with his local fire brigade, but as his opposition to effective action on climate change is likely to contribute to even more extreme events in the future, this looks like the most cynical kind of stunt politics.


www.guardian.co.uk/.../australia-heatwave-weather

MWS

January 9. 2013 11:40 AM

LadyInRed

Michael @7:09

I note Newman cut like crazy to get Qld budget into surplus, thanks to Costello ethos, probably has friends in IMF. I wouldn't be surprised if similar statistics are working up here in Queensland.

LadyInRed

January 9. 2013 12:01 PM

DMW

I know we don't want to encourage gambling here but this is one time I have to make an exception

Any bets on which paper/s will feature this pic, or similar, on their front page tomorrow?

http://pic.twitter.com/yadb2wnt

DMW

January 9. 2013 12:03 PM

42 long

  The Guardian Article is right on as regards Abbott and the other factors appertaining to australia which try to confuse the reality of climate change, here. These are not people with just an "opinion" who are entitled to voice it. They are people who manipilate the truth and profit from peddling lies and confusion at great cost to the planet, which is of little consequence to them, under the guise of free speech. Perhaps one day they will account for their actions.

42 long

January 9. 2013 12:05 PM

Jason

DMW,
   Here's a caption for your link!

   AshbyInquiryNow Geek‏@geeksrulz
The shock & awe LNP campaign that has our media enthralled & hypnotised: 'A Stunt A Day Keeps The Policies Away'

Jason

January 9. 2013 12:07 PM

TalkTurkey



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG3PnQ3tgzY

Puttin' on the Viz

If you're Tone and you're feeling sad and lonely
Why don't you combine fun and biz -
Puttin' on the Viz!

Different types who work at real day jobs
So you won't have to answer any journos' quiz
Puttin' on the Viz!

Dressed just like an honest Aussie worker
Showing us that you are not a shirker
[Jerk-a-Lurker!]

You can mix with working class fellers who build with bricks
and as a tree feller you're a whiz!
Puttin' on the Viz!

You can go by day or night
Out to any working site
Or to far Afghanistan
Shoot a gun just like a man
War zones or floods in Queensland
Fish markets, always-seen-man
You will go anywhere
If the weather is fair!

If you're Tone and you're feeling sad and lonely
Why don't you combine fun and biz -
Puttin' on the Viz!

Puttin' on the Viz, Puttin' on the Viz,
Puttin' on the Viz,
Pose Pose Gotta Smile



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG3PnQ3tgzY

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Original Lyrics (Irving Berlin)

www.metrolyrics.com/...n-the-ritz-lyrics-taco.html


TalkTurkey

January 9. 2013 12:20 PM

42 long

  DMW I don't bet but ptobably most/all of them? Predictable and pathetic.

42 long

January 9. 2013 12:23 PM

LadyInRed

Monkton is on his way again. And then there is our own home grown nutter running for a seat in Canberra.

And what of climate change, the rising trend in global temperatures and emissions of greenhouse gases from burning fossil fuels and other human activities? Nalliah went on to explain: “The fact is God is in charge of climate for 6000 years … we cannot change the climate.”

www.crikey.com.au/.../

LadyInRed

January 9. 2013 01:00 PM

bob macalba

Jason
I just watched the Alex Jones link,...i am fair dinkum gobsmacked, how many different descriptions of the guy go through your head while listening to him rant?..redneck..
..fruit loop..loony tunes..asylum escapee, are just a couple,
'America was born on guns and whiskey'..WTF..
'more guns mean less crime'..again WTF
prozac, great whites, people fleeing UK in their thousands
because of a police state..and again WTF
and of course this beauty..'the twin towers was an american govt plot.
but the really scary bit is..the influence this insane tool has.

cheers

bob macalba

January 9. 2013 01:16 PM

KHTAGH


  Hope is high for us in the next election, I had to deliver a hospital bed today for an old guy just up the road for South East Community center, (do it as a once in a while job for palliative patients).

I was talking to the CEO, we got onto politics, in her words she said that she would be totally shocked if the Lieberals got in, her exact words "I don't know a single woman that would vote for that dickhead Abbortt" in her job she is surrounded by women of all ages, I feel this carries a lot of weight.

  Here's hopping swords folk.

KHTAGH

January 9. 2013 01:40 PM

Jason

bob macalba,
           The other disturbing thing was he said he had 50 guns of his own at home!
I'd hate to live next door to him and upset him!

Jason

January 9. 2013 02:04 PM

bob macalba

Jason
neighbors no doubt rednecks as well,  whole community of the buggers getting together on weekends drinking 'whiskey' whilst showing of their arsenals, going over plans for when they 'have' to take over govt,
imagine not many break and enters in his 'hood'

cheers

bob macalba

January 9. 2013 02:12 PM

Ken

Jasaon   bob macalba

Just tried to watch Alex Jones.  sorry but had to give up at 1 min 30sec.  I just find it truly unbelievable how stupid and ignorant Americans can be.  He goes on about the 2nd Amendment being to protect them against "tyranical governments" but that was based on fears of a Government being effectively controlled by Britain.  And it was also meant to ensure there was a militia available to defend America, not to overthrow its own elected Government.  I know Jones and his ilk believe they are still consistent with what I have written here because they think that they are being taken over by global powers - it's more likely aliens!!  It gives me a headache just trying to sort through his comments -  I think I would suffer permanent brain damage if I listened to the whole interview.

Ken

January 9. 2013 02:44 PM

Jason

Ken,
   I wish I could tell you it got better!

bob macalba
Jones came up with a term called "Democide" of which I've never heard before, just had a look at wikipedia and they have this explanation!

Democide is a term revived and redefined by the political scientist R. J. Rummel as "the murder of any person or people by a government, including genocide, politicide, and mass murder." Rummel created the term as an extended concept to include forms of government murder that are not covered by the term genocide, and it has become accepted among other scholars.[1][2][3] Rummel presents his definition without referencing any previous uses, but the term democide was defined and used in English more than 40 years earlier by Theodore Abel.[4] In the 20th century, democide passed war as the leading cause of non-natural death (according to Rummel).[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

Jason

January 9. 2013 02:58 PM

DMW

Ken,
thanks for that warning I was not long off getting a cuppa and watching the video.

I'll now boil the kettle and go off and look at some Menzies House blogs instead (not)

DMW

January 9. 2013 04:34 PM

42 long

  I used to have quite a few american friends till I found that many of them say the world is only 6300 years old. How will the backward countries fare if this ( the USA) is a modern educated democracy, and these views are common. Those theological ramblings have a great potential for providing excuses to hate others who don't "THINK"?? like you do. IF heaven is where many of them are headed I don't think I would want to be there. When Man?? was confined to the earth and he thought the sun went over the top of the flat earth one could understand the need to explain things in the absence of science, by creating a GOD . Now anyone can see images of the vastness of the universe and the relatively tiny planet we live on is such an inconsequential piece of it, and believe the whole lot was just for us to worship a god who is up there "somewhere" and who created us so that we might worship him. The crazy religions scare the hell out of me. In the name of these gods some of the most heinous acts ever are committed . I don't want one penny of my taxes to go to any of them till they agree to behave themselves, and stop being horrible  and leave little kids alone and treat women as people (tic).

42 long

January 9. 2013 04:47 PM

LadyInRed

Tony Abbott can not be our next PM, we must fight against it. He wrote this article that is so offensive on so many levels its made me get the cranks again. No need to read the whole thing unless you have a blood pressure tablet available, but here is a taster:

To a pregnant 14-year-old struggling to grasp what’s happening, for example, example, a senior student with a whole life mapped out or a mother already failing to cope under difficult circumstances, abortion is the easy way out. It’s hardly surprising that people should choose the most convenient exit from awkward situations. What seems to be considered far less often is avoiding situations where difficult choices might arise.

www.tonyabbott.com.au/.../...R-MORAL-FAILINGS.aspx

LadyInRed

January 9. 2013 04:59 PM

DMW

LIR,
It’s hardly surprising that people should choose the most convenient exit from awkward situations.

Like bolting to the exit of the chamber so as not to accept a tainted vote?

DMW

January 9. 2013 06:09 PM

DMW

If you are not already aware this year Canberra celebrtates its' 100th birthday. March 12th is actually the 100th anniversary of the naming of Canberra but let's not let little details get in the way of a big celebration and hopefully heaps of fireworks (the crackers in the sky type not the antics in parliament)

Jack the Insider has an interesting take on the site for the national capital was chosen that has a coupleof giggles in it:

Canberra the worst place on earth after the others
I have declared in the past that Canberra is the worst place on earth. I am happy now to withdraw that statement and offer my apologies. A bit of summer reading tells me that Canberra is the worst place on earth after all the other places that were tried.
The history of the establishment of Canberra as the nation’s capital is fascinating. It exposes all of the ugliness of politics and some of its higher ideals, too.

blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/.../

DMW

January 9. 2013 06:23 PM

LadyInRed

DMW tee hee (that gave me a good laugh thanks) too true.

LadyInRed

January 9. 2013 06:29 PM

Ken

For those interested in the US gun debate, from “Pro Publica”.  Also some interesting links embedded in this for more on the gun laws – for a review of the State gun laws try the “explainer” link in the first para.

www.propublica.org/.../five-federal-policies-on-guns-you-never-heard-of

DMW

Glad I was able to warn you off.  Also on Canberra.  My recollections of reading the story is that as a political deal it was left to NSW to decide how much land would actually be excised and Reid, then NSW Premier, excised an area that he considered would be too small for a viable "state/territory", hoping that it would be abandoned and move to Sydney.  "The ruin of good sheep paddocks" as someone described it.

Jervis Bay was meant to be the ACT's port and there was also supposed to be a 12 mile wide corridor between Canberra and Jervis Bay for a rail link.  Burley-Griffin also drew up plans for "Pacific City" which was meant to be the port city on Jervis Bay.  I can imagine if it was built that there wouldn't have been many people, or even Government offices, left in Canberra.

Despite that, I have been in Canberra since 1975 (bar 2 years) and early on when my old Sydney friends used to ask why I would choose to live in Canberra, my answer was that, "if you have to live in a city because of your work, then Canberra is one of the better cities to live in". (though I do like Hobart)

My mother also had a set of very old encyclopaedias that had belonged to her father - they don't have a publishing date but were pre-World War I and Dalgety is shown as the capital of Australia.  It was one of the places under consideration.

Ken

January 9. 2013 06:43 PM

Michael

Bad Abbott

Shouldabeen got his photo opportunities as a volunteer fire fighter duly splashed across the evening TV news shows, all about his crew leaving the Northern Beaches to assist in Nowra.

Shots of him driving south with his crew's trucks.

Will we see him returning to Sydney the same time as the rest of them, whenever the actual job they are there to do is done, or will he scoot away five minutes behind the last news camera team covering his arrival and togging up as 'Fireman Tony'?

One to leave to Tom Waterhouse?

Michael

January 9. 2013 06:59 PM

Ken

42 long

re God/Dog.  I always recall the Pete and Dud discussion of relgion.  Ends along the lines that: I've been a good Anglican all my life, go to heaven, and there sits Buddha, and says, "ha, ha, you were wrong - I'm sending you back as a worm."

That sums it up!

Ken

January 9. 2013 07:17 PM

DMW

Ken,
sometime not long after you came here I was working in Hobart and I was given three choices:
If I wanted to continue working with the organisation I could 1. Go to Canberra. If that didn't appeal 2. I could try Canberra and as a final choice there was Canberra.

It was a no-brainer, I chose the second option Smile

I was proud to be a Hobastard, so it took a while, but I came around and although I have spent a lot of time working in other parts of the country Canberra has 'always' been home since 1976.

I always reckoned that if they had built a city like Canberra at Jervis Bay or somewhere near I would have never been 'transported' as the queues to get there would have been very long.

I will stop now before I go into rants about fly-in-fly-out pollies and ...

DMW

January 9. 2013 07:21 PM

Tom of Melbourne

On this site Abbott gets criticised for being a volunteer fire fighter and a volunteer surf lifesaver.  Many here like to mock those that give up their time to provide vital community services, which happen to save lives.


Fortunately, there is no political conflict of interest for those making these comments, because Gillard has never volunteered for any community organisation.

Tom of Melbourne

January 9. 2013 07:29 PM

uriah

MWS- Thanks for your interesting link to The Guardian.
I have heard that they will be publishing in Australia this year.Is this true and if so in what form?
Ta.

uriah

January 9. 2013 07:34 PM

Ken

ToM

Abbott is not being criticised for being a volnteer fire fighter but for putting out a press release about it and turning it into a media opportunity.  Name me another volunteer fire fighter who has done that!  Genuine volunteers do their work and don't seek glory for it.

No further correspondence but at least get your criticisms correct!!!!

Ken

January 9. 2013 07:38 PM

Jason

ToM,
   What is it you do?

Jason

January 9. 2013 07:48 PM

Jason

ToM,
   So Abbott saves lives! big deal so do I! the difference is I don't put out a press release for the media to come and film me mainly because they don't give a Fuck if you're not in the public eye!

It may be old but so I don't know what the current number is but even someone as stupid as you will get the drift!

ONE MAN SAVES ONE THOUSAND
BABIES
You could say that Jason's blood donation journey
began when his grandma, a regular donor,
encouraged him to give blood.
"Donating blood was something I was always
aware of and I knew that the Blood Service
always needs blood and there aren't enough
donors," said Jason.
In 1992, Jason took the first step of rolling up his
sleeve to donate for the first time. He continued
his regular whole blood donations until one day
he was asked to give plasma instead.
He hasn't looked back and has been donating
plasma every 2 weeks since. Thirteen years later,
Jason was approached by a Blood Service nurse to
join the Anti-D program.
The Anti-D Program aims to prevent cases of
Haemolytic Disease of the Newborn (HDN) in
babies. HDN is caused when a mother has a Rh
(D) negative blood type (ie, A negative) and her
baby has a Rh (D) positive blood type (ie, B
positive).
During pregnancy, a small amount of the baby's
blood can pass into the mother's blood stream.
When this happens, the mother's immune system
can produce antibodies, called Anti-D, that could
destroy her baby's red blood cells. This can lead
to serious complications for the baby such as
severe anaemia, brain damage, and in some
cases, the baby's death.
It is recommended that all Rh (D) negative
women, about 17% of women in Australia,
receive anti-D injections when they are pregnant.
Across Australia, about 11,000 are given each
month.
Anti-D can only come from plasma donors; it can
not be made in a laboratory. Furthermore, Anti-D
can only be produced from the blood of a
selected group of donors. These donors all have a
Rh (D) negative blood type and they also have the
antibody called anti-D.
Very few people, and even fewer donors, have
anti-D. so we rely heavily on these donors for this
important product.
The Vein Vol 4 Ed 9 September 2011


In Jason's case he did not have anti-D in his blood,
but the Blood Service is able to stimulate
development ofanti-D in about 50% of people by
giving a series of small intravenous injections of
specially selected and processed Rh (D) positive
red cells.
Since joining the Anti- D program in 2008 Jason
has made over 67 life-saving donations. His blood
has been used to make 2948 vials of Anti-D, in
turn helping 982 babies from suffering this
debilitating disease.


Jason didn't think twice about joining the Anti-D
program: "My decision to join the program was
easy as my two daughters will need Anti-D when
they have children because they both have a
negative blood group. If I can't do something like
this knowing my two daughter will receive the
Anti-D immunisation, how should I expect other
people out there to do the same?" he said.
On Tuesday August 23rd 2011, Jason donated his
100th donation at Pelican Plaza Donor Centre in
South Australia and is looking forward to seeing
his daughter give her first blood donation to
continue the family legacy of saving lives.

Jason

January 9. 2013 07:52 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Thanks for asking Jason, among the voluntary activities that I have posted on blogs-

•  Member of surf lifesaving club & patrol, though I leave the hard work up to young people these days
•  On the board of an orgaanisation to promote awareness of some indigenous issues and activities

But her what we see here is mocking of the gab required of members of a surf lifesaving club and criticism of someone giving up their time to join a volunteer brigade they’ve been a member of for 13 years.

What community organisations has Gillard volunteered her time to?

Tom of Melbourne

January 9. 2013 08:02 PM

KHTAGH


There is one good aspect of our blogging & our digital footprint that we are creating in real time.

Unlike older generations, the current generation will not be able to bullshit to their future descendants like past ones over their actions & beliefs ie climate change.

Our digital foot print will live long past our end. Facebook pages will be there forever. So it better be good reading or they might just piss on your grave.

KHTAGH

January 9. 2013 08:10 PM

Jason

ToM,
   "What community organisations has Gillard volunteered her time to?"

I don't know! should she tweet it like Abbott did yesterday so the public do know? or can people just get on and do what they do without the circus!

PS
I also have Surf life saving bronze medallion St Johns first aid and help as a sparing partner at a local boxing gym!

This isn't a pissing comp ToM we know what Abbott does he should just get on and do it!

  

Jason

January 9. 2013 08:12 PM

DMW

I just love these 'pissing' contests - my leader is better than your leader because ...

[totally crass & rude comment warning on]
Does anyone recall the story about the the little town where the state school burned down and they had share with the local catholic school?

Sister Agnes raced into Mother Superior's office:
[i]Mother Superior it's so terrible I caught the boys having contests to see who could pee highest up the wall ...

What did you do Sister Agnes ...

Mother Superior I hit the roof ...

Good on you Sister Agnes, we can't have those proddie boys beating us ...

[/totally crass & rude comment warning off]

DMW

January 9. 2013 08:26 PM

Ken

KHTAGH

Sorry to disappoint but my understanding is that our digital records may not last as long as old parchments and photographs, mainly because the hardware and software changes so rapidly (and it exists in a virtual world that needs to be recreated for it to be accessed).  I read somewhere that NASA (an org you would think would have all the required resources)can no longer access some of its early data simply because of technological changes.

I know archivists are concerned that they save not just the "material" but some way of reproducing it in the future - and that is an issue they haven't yet resolved satisfactorily.

Ken

January 9. 2013 08:29 PM

42 long

  You are SO right KHTAGH.
    What did you do when this was being handled DAD. "OH I did my best to get rid of that red headed sheila who was putting taxes on coal and stuff" Nobody liked her . the papers were full of the things she was doing wrong"
  But isn't coal Carbon? Why did australia keep on exporting coal when virtually ALL the scientists of any repute, agreed that carbon dioxide levels HAD to be cut, and time was running out to do something.
    "Oh I just listened to Andrew Bolt and Lord Monkton and Rupert Murdoch's papers. Those people said it was only a fertiliser and would make everything go green and grow better"  

42 long

January 9. 2013 09:07 PM

Ad astra

Folks
Thanks to you all for your comments and links, DMW for the Front Pages, and MWS for the link to the Monbiot article in The Guardian.  Why do our journos not write articles like that?  We know the answer.

Today I’ve been working on TPS Mail, which I hope we can launch within the coming week.

Ad astra

January 9. 2013 09:11 PM

Gravel

Jason

Thank you, you are a real gentleman.

Talk Turkey

Great set of lyrics, I even knew the tune to put them to.

Knee High

So you are not just a humble Bee Swarm rescuer.

Thank you to all the people on here that do volunteer work, without it our society wouldn't be what it is.

Gravel

January 9. 2013 09:16 PM

KHTAGH

The latest from Kay Rollison

Dead, buried and cremated




victoriarollison.com/.../

KHTAGH

January 9. 2013 09:25 PM

bob macalba

Jason
'Democide'.... now i can add paranoid to the rednecks profile,
  .. a paranoid, angry, gun toting lunatic with a large following of same thinking nutters....scary stuff
  
as for your donating,  man thats awesome, seriously..what you do is bloody brilliant

bob macalba

January 9. 2013 09:41 PM

LadyInRed

As a fully fledged bogan even I am a volunteer, and I plan to put out a press release tomorrow.

Bogan Admits to Volunteering Whilst Wearing Full Bogan Outfit...designed by Jason of TPS, accessories are volunteers own.

oooh as an atheist I wonder at why my reCaptcha for this post is Ireadmn ARCHDIOCESE

LadyInRed

January 9. 2013 10:03 PM

Jason

LIR,
   Good on you!
Sadly you'll have to post the "press release" here, as the media will ignore you as they have done for years!
But we here at the political sword will be more than happy to hear about your exploits!

Jason

January 9. 2013 11:48 PM

Truth Seeker

Hey Swordsters, the question that I have about Abbotts efforts as a fireman, is with all the media that hang on his every word, and take photos ad-infinitum, why is it that the hottest thing that we see him tackling is the drivers seat of a truck, and the steering wheel that has been in the sun too long?

I have never seen him pointing his hose at anything hotter, yet they manage to get action shots of real heros doing their bit, and they give up their holidays and spare time, not just defer them,

Call me cynical, but a press release and an opportunistic photo op just doesn't cut it, when compared to what other volunteers do and give up for their communities, without the press release and photo ops.

And I don't think that his efforts will have the desired effect of distracting from the allegations of corruption that his LNP are likely facing.

His "Arsegates" are alive and well, and coming to  an enquiry near you!

And also on my blog.

truthseekersmusings.wordpress.com/.../

Cheers   Smile   Smile

Truth Seeker

January 10. 2013 01:56 AM

jane

Jason @8.10pm, right on. I neither know nor care whether the PM is a volunteer anything or what charities she supports. That's her business.

Her job is being the PM; bignoting about volunteering is not. It's crass and smacks of desperation. But let's face it, Liealot is a bignoting desperado.

We could all admire his volunteer firefighting if it wasn't accompanied by a press contingent and his stupid stunts getting in the way of the people who actually do the work.

LIR, good luck with the bogan volunteering and getting your press release out there. I think Jason has nailed it.

jane

January 10. 2013 07:43 AM

KHTAGH


Funny isn't it the Lieberals jump up & down like a cat on a hot tin roof about Whitehaven.

Yet they talk every business down they can when they can, no complaints from the MSM about that though.

If they can manage to rob the electorate of a fair election & get in they will destroy the NBN which will wipe 100 millions of Telstra shares, that will be ok because they want it to happen.

KHTAGH

January 10. 2013 07:52 AM

Michael

Supplementing KHTAGH's link to Virginia Rollinson's site five posts or so above,

you might like to read this www.theaustralian.com.au/.../story-fn59noo3-1226550703973 which very much evidentially supplements Kay Rollinson's argument.

In The Australian article, Peter Reith is quoted on the matter of arguing 'flexible' industrial relations as a central plank to Abbott's mob being elected:

"The Coalition should be fighting that fight every day until the next election," Mr Reith said. "What's particularly encouraging is that future ministers like Josh Frydenberg and others are willing to speak out in the public interest."

So, Peter Reith is already allocating portfolios for Tony Abbott (kind, don't you think?), in a government he has decided the electorate will definitely put in place (presumptuous, don't you think?).

But all of that's OK, because as 'facts overboard' Pete reminds us, everything will be "in the public interest".

Who knew these guys cared so much about us?

Michael

January 10. 2013 08:02 AM

Gravel

Michael

Yes, we've got it all wrong, it is only they LNP that care about us.  I mean, poor people don't get sick and need medical attention.  Their kids don't need no education. The workers don't need no pay, they can live on water and air.  

Gravel

January 10. 2013 08:20 AM

bob macalba

LiR
you will also need trackie-daks, thongs, and socks when your toes get cold[usually winter]
Truth Seeker...marvelous.. how about 'Arsegate' the musical?
Hugh Jackman, Russell Crowe have to be in it,  Pyne and Hockey could make cameo appearances,  
Michael..they care, they just dont like to show it..[thats my funny for the day]

bob macalba

January 10. 2013 08:30 AM

Ken

Michael   Gravel

I think Reith has never gotten over the problems he had when he took on the wharfies.  He'll get those unions yet - even if he has to have someone else do it for him!!!!

Ken

January 10. 2013 08:56 AM

Truth Seeker

Bob, thanks for that, and I love your suggestion.... classic   lol.

Cheers  Smile   Smile   Smile

Truth Seeker

January 10. 2013 09:44 AM

TalkTurkey

TPS has now the best collection of contributors ever since I first came here. There is more good commentary here now than on all the MSM put together, though that is not much of a recommendation granted.

I'd like to comment on every comment but that's hard to do.

I think Ad astra tries to do pretty much that... but Ad though it is wonderful to get an encouragement from you once in a while please don't feel obligated, we are obligated rather to you for this special forum.

A couple I will comment on anyway:

DMW said
LIR,
It’s hardly surprising that people should choose the most convenient exit from awkward situations.

Like bolting to the exit of the chamber so as not to accept a tainted vote?

To which I would add signing up for Catholic priesthood in the UK when he thought he had got his girlfriend pregnant. It wasn't his as it turned out, what, 30 years later? But he thought it was it seems. Scum like that ~ ever change? ~I don't think so!

LiR
I reckon you and Bob and Jason ought to start a Bogan brand. Make Boganism hi-fashion grungy, that'll confuse everybody.

Show-Pony Tony. My Dad was a teacher and a bomber navigator in WW2. Show-Pony was one of the most contemptible categories of humanoid to Dad. Tony is one of the most contemptible examples.

TS I haven't been to your blog this morning, will do so later.

Gee there's some good writers here now (always have been but there's more now.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gravel,
Thanks for the nod about Puttin' on the Viz, it was weird to write, it's one of the most unusual rhythms of any song I've heard.

Oddly, as a I was writing it, Abbortt came into my screen, and he WASN'T wearing Hi-Viz for once, (nice touch I thought), he was at the wheel of the Fire Truck, in green fatigues with a filthy old cap on, that looked like it had once been owned by a real worker.

Whether he is breaking the OH&S rules firefighting without Hi-Viz is another matter. In a later pose (pose is good!) we see him in his Hi-Viz again, oh the relief.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Stand ready Folks to bombard the politicians journalists and everyone we can with demands to bring the Ashbygate traitors to book. When we are finally ready, I trust that will be soon. It must be made a hot issue when Parliament resumes.  

Surely there must be investigative journalists who have close ties with gutsy lawyers who will prosecute the case for a quick and incisive enquiry? We must not let this conspiracy pass without serious ramifications for the culprits. Every  Aussie should be outraged by this attempt to steal Government by stealth and villainy.

Villains. That's what they are.  



TalkTurkey

January 10. 2013 09:59 AM

Tom of Melbourne

Bogans use the beach for drinking practice. They then hang s**t on the surf life savers for wearing “budgie smugglers”.  When they are fully charged they take a swim. Once they have swallowed plenty of salt water they call for help – from the “budgie smuggler” wearing surf lifesavers.

The bogan community is mainly found in the TAB and next to the big TV in the pub. They have 3 big TVs at home. Bogans are too busy with this community to bother with volunteer fire fighting or any other community service.

Bogans like to criticise people who take the trouble to volunteer, because they think everyone should be sating their gambling and drinking compulsion.

Bogans don’t volunteer, they suck up the goodwill of the people who do.

Congratulations for supporting bogans in front of those that volunteer.

Tom of Melbourne

January 10. 2013 10:17 AM

Truth Seeker

Ad, I hope you don't mind, but I noticed some interest on IA for contact details for Journos, as there was a lot of disgruntlement their about the lack of accountability by the MSM, so I have taken it upon myself to mention TPS and your efforts to get your TPS mail set up.

I am also keeping them updated on your progress, they were very appreciative of the information, and will be visiting here too.   Smile

I have also put a link to TPS on my blog.

Cheers   Smile   Smile

Truth Seeker

January 10. 2013 10:21 AM

Truth Seeker

TT, yes the rhythm for that song is not quite the norm, good job though.   Smile

Cheers   Smile   Smile

Truth Seeker

January 10. 2013 10:31 AM

Psyclaw

Regarding the Credlin and Tony the Firie issues:

According to Newspoll, Abbott's unpopularity rating has slowly but surely been on the up and up for a year, perhaps more, and conversely his popularity has steadily decreased.

This begs the question as to what elements of his conduct are behind the dislike of him.

I would proffer three ares.

1) People have slowly and surely got tired of his pugilism and negativity.

2) His demonstrated lifelong disrespect for many issues which are important to women and to men who respect women. (Associated with this is his religiosity and ideology from which many of his narrow and dogmatic views have come)

3) The post July1, 2012 period where people's lived experience has put the lie to his over the top carbon price prophecies of armageddon.

The question is, have these three areas given rise to a transient, reversible negative view of him in the electorate or are they ingrained in the minds of 60%+ of the population.

Will frolics in fluoro vests and fire trucks, and his newly revealed sympathy to IVF and the difficulties women face in this, cause in the community a response such as "Oh! I must've been wrong about him ...... he's not so bad after all".

I think not. My guess is that the reasons so many of us dislike him are confirmed by these pathetic PR pranks and in fact harden the dislike of him. I suspect the vast majority of those who dislike him will utter WTTE of "there's that jerk making a fool of himself again", or "what a joke he is" or "does he really think he can con us this way".

For my money, the way 7.30 promoted him last night in a story purported to be a report on the bushfires is the exception to the rule "all publicity is good publicity", which proves the rule.

Psyclaw

January 10. 2013 10:32 AM

2353

Sorry for the catch up post - I've been out of action for a couple of days.

Ken @ 7:34 9/1/13 - completely agree.  It's not the volunteering, it's the publicity regarding the volunteering.  I would suggest that most if not all that post here volunteer to support their communities.

Also @ 8:26 9/1/13 - AA will correct if I'm wrong, but I thought (i)TPS(/i) is collected in an on-line archive by the National Library.

TT @ 9:44 today - the green jsckets in "emergency situations" are usually for "Media".

2353

January 10. 2013 10:40 AM

Tom of Melbourne

The Prime Minister’s “partner”, Tim aka “Hyacinth the Hairdresser” gets his noggin on the TV for going to a barbeque for a men’s shed, or something.

Shame on Hyacinth.

Tom of Melbourne

January 10. 2013 11:02 AM

bob macalba

The shit dribblers back, feed him at your own peril,
blah, blah ,blah, blah,blah, bad Julia,blah,blah,blah,Tims got a shed thingy, blah, blah

bob macalba

January 10. 2013 11:07 AM

LadyInRed

Bogans cry too.

Thank goodness for Gonski. Perhaps my press release could suggest that I be a new role model for bogans? Bogans can get a University degree and, yes, a Masters is obviously not out of the question! I can pose in front of cameras wearing my bogan outfit and a mortarboard complete with hmmmm a yellow tassle (I've already worn a purple one). Pose in front of a fire truck, and be photographed running swiftly from surf to shore, oooh I could drive a truck from Bris to Syd, and I could run jauntily from trees to truck holding a fire hose whilst showing my prowess as a RFS, and I could ride a bicycle (a pink one) from Perth the Adelaide with just one bottle of water........What I wouldn't do is sit at my desk and tell women how to respond to unwanted pregnancy when I know nothing of their anguish.........do I need to go on.

I took particular offence to TAbbott's written word, so he had lot's of time to think about it:

a mother already failing to cope under difficult circumstances, abortion is the easy way out

If you call me a name I will always just own it.....just to save time.

LadyInRed

January 10. 2013 11:08 AM

MWS

I can't be a bogan because I just received an Outstanding Service Award from the WA Department of Environment and Conservation for my volunteering.  No media scrum for me!

Bogan = somebody "Tom of Melbourne" doesn't like.

Some projection there!

I regularly see lifesavers wearing board shorts, so obviously wearing "budgie smugglers" isn't compulsory.  It's a matter of personal preference.

(Sorry everybody, I couldn't resist)

MWS

January 10. 2013 11:09 AM

KHTAGH

I saw last night on witter that some are saying Show pony Tony's call sign or referral to him on the firefighting team is "stuntman" Sounds about right too.

KHTAGH

January 10. 2013 11:11 AM

LadyInRed

TT

RFS wear green T-Shirts and blue caps, QLD probably same everywhere.

LadyInRed

January 10. 2013 11:27 AM

LadyInRed

Oh and this is offensive as well. I work with people who find themselves homeless:

"We just can't stop people from being homeless if that's their choice." - Tony Abbott, February 11th 2010

He is a person without vision, and someone who thinks he is oh so pragmatic.

What we could do is get to vulnerbale people before they become so hopeless with life that they don't care anymore. And people of the type he is talking about are very rare indeed. But hey its is so soothing for us to think that people are in that situation by choice, its their fault, it so helps us get on with our own lives and not have to think about it....pathetic.

LadyInRed

January 10. 2013 11:28 AM

Jason

ToM,
   During my miss spent youth I was regularly sentenced to community service orders! So your claim that Bogans do no community service is just another outright lie as usual!

Jason

January 10. 2013 11:28 AM

Ad astra

Truth Seeker
Many thanks for your cross-referencing my request for journalists’ email addresses.  Incidentally, I looked through the  weekend’s AFR and found only one.  They are as scarce as the proverbial hen's teeth.  Don’t journalists want us to email them?

I hope your blog goes well.  Running a blog takes time, but is a very worthwhile pursuit.  I liked your poem.

I'll be busy today working on TPS Mail.

Ad astra

January 10. 2013 11:38 AM

DMW

From the Newspapers ...
   What the front pages are saying

via Front Pages Today - http://goo.gl/enTjx

The Australian - http://goo.gl/3bnTO
Liberals push voting changes - Paywalled http://goo.gl/kROzj (click on first link)
By blaze or bullet: agony of watching flock perish
Roxon defends laws on offence
Disparity in black sentences 'peverse'

The Sydney Morning Herald - http://goo.gl/1kOHj
Job vacancies plunge as confidence slides
Slipper risks losing $157,000 a year over fraud claims

The Daily Telegraph - http://goo.gl/JXc7d
CITY’S FULL STEAM AHEAD (Exclusive: A heavy price to pay for light rail revolution
Abbott faces a real firestorm
Don't get your hopes up, it is a pic of LoTO in full firie garb - Ed

The Age - http://goo.gl/j6tKW
Serving up a grand plan to help Australians win the slam
Job vacancies on the slide

The Herald Sun - http://goo.gl/0wNCf
HEARTBREAK
A good pic showing devastation - Ed)

The Courier Mail - http://goo.gl/7NTLf
It’s what all parents fear: A teen who needed to be kept safe from herself, and her last … TRAGIC CHOICE

The Adelaide Advetiser - http://goo.gl/ApkdY
No-wash zones to fight river bank erosion
TRUMP CARD (AN Australian-first smart card)

The Hobart Mercury - http://goo.gl/J8x10
PEOPLE’S ARMY Tasmanians are mobilising in increasing numbers to help the victims of bushfires

The NT Times - http://goo.gl/7f7VB
No Crocs But ...
I'll Huff & I'll Puff: Three little pigs give NT police run around
Second NT man dies in Laos

DMW

January 10. 2013 11:41 AM

LadyInRed

And then there is this absolute clanger:

‘I think there does need to be give and take on both sides, and this idea that sex is kind of a woman’s right to absolutely withhold, just as the idea that sex is a man’s right to demand I think they are both they both need to be moderated, so to speak’
Tony Abbott


This is not the person to be PM.

LadyInRed

January 10. 2013 11:44 AM

DMW

LiR,
this bogan thing has been troubling me - even causing angst

I just can't imagine you as a bogan ...

I reckon you are more likely a Bougainvillea

... the pretty flowering bits thereof Smile

DMW

January 10. 2013 11:44 AM

Tom of Melbourne

I regularly see lifesavers wearing board shorts, so obviously wearing "budgie smugglers" isn't compulsory. It's a matter of personal preference.

You should think in advance of posting and understand the gab worn by lifesavers. Board shorts are designed for sitting around on the beach (or sitting on a surf board so the wax doesn’t tangle and stick to your legs). Lifesavers wear them on the beach.

If they are swimming out beyond the break to rescue a drunk bogan (for example), board shorts aren’t good for the purpose. They’re heavy, so “budgie smuggler’s are worn for actual swimming and rescue.

Young people aren’t fond of being mocked for wearing budgie smugglers, and the constant references effect their moral when they do their voluntary surf lifesaving.

Tom of Melbourne

January 10. 2013 11:44 AM

Pikiranku

I wouldn't worry too much about Tony making friends and influencing people with his phony antics yesterday.  
Just bumped into a couple of our local CFS volunteers (liberal voters to the core) and they weren't at all impressed.  On the contrary, I think they felt that he was trivialising and diminishing the time and effort they put in.  
These blokes don't just jump into a fire truck when the smoke starts billowing down the road. They're putting in unglamorous hours every week - servicing machinery and maintaining equipment, ensuring everything's in tip-top condition for when it's needed; they're training together, perfecting their teamwork; they're learning new techniques and how to use new pieces of equipment and communications technology; they go to courses and workshops.  It's a real commitment and they don't appreciate it being trivialised by anybody, even Tony Abbott.
Personally, I think the bulk of volunteering should be done by those of us who have a perfect window of opportunity in our lives to do so - we're retired so we have the time and we're able-bodied enough to be useful.
As for Julia Gillard volunteering, I elected her to do a very important and extremely onerous job which I believe she is the perfect person to fill. I wouldn't be impressed if she was wasting her time doing stuff that I or countless other people can do just as well. I didn't elect Tony Abbott, of course, but the same principle applies to him.  But he's a dilettante is Tony, dips his toe in here, there and everywhere, but doesn't have the application to really excel at anything.  If he spent more time mastering the job he has been asked to do and less time flitting about the country trying to make an impression, we'd all be better off.

Pikiranku

January 10. 2013 11:49 AM

Truth Seeker

Ad, many thanks for your kind words and support, and I am glad to be able to spread the word about TPS.

You do a great service and deserve the recognition for the work that you do.

Cheers   Smile   Smile

Truth Seeker

January 10. 2013 12:00 PM

DMW

things to ponder:

°*(*Dot) ‏@alloneworddotie
#artwiculate "Know thy self, know thy enemy"- Sun Tzu
"Know thy shellfish, know thy anemone"- Sea Tzu

DMW

January 10. 2013 12:07 PM

42 long

  The person who first related the term boganville to the Lodge was Kevin.Rudd.. His good friend Bishop J aske him the question in QT. " When is the foreign minister going to REVISIT Boganville?"
   Ask me why I can't stand Kevin. Team worker? Which team? I'll give you a clue. It's a team of one.

42 long

January 10. 2013 12:11 PM

Tom of Melbourne

The Prime Minister just ingratiates herself with volunteers for photo opportunities, rather than actually doing anything. Plenty more photos of her engaged in similar publicity stunts if requested.

www.qt.com.au/.../

Tom of Melbourne

January 10. 2013 12:30 PM

Jason

A Stunt A Day Keeps The Policy Questions Away!

www.youtube.com/watch

Jason

January 10. 2013 12:39 PM

KHTAGH

Although this was in Canada I'm sure we have the same thing here, way to coincidental.

  Here’s the text of the ad:

    Writers needed to post right-wing comments to social media and news outlets.

    We are a social media company working for a political organization, hired to help balance the left-wing bias of the major media outlets by supplying a team of writers who will post to newspaper comments, media forums, Facebook pages, etc.

    Your writing must be strong, right-wing and use the supplied talking points without being bogged down in too much detail. You are creating an online persona with a consistent tone. Ideally you can find or construct facts and statistics to stir controversey. Where suited humour is welcome.

    You are a news junky who is able to log on to news forums and Facebook pages several times a day. You are able to write comments tailored to new topics while repating key talking points.

    Compensation: TBD, hourly rate and volume of online activity. Bonuses for controversial postings that heat up a topic or forums thread.

The reporter thinks it might be hoax. This particular ad might be — I don’t know. But paying people to troll blog comments isn’t a hoax. It’s very real. I’ve seen it firsthand at Huffington Post and elsewhere. Commenters popping in to make one comment then leaving, with talking points that are very similar to other one-off commenters engaging in the exact same behavior.

  He can deny it all he likes, but why else does he come here?

  Cats out of the bag troll.

KHTAGH

January 10. 2013 12:46 PM

bob macalba

DMW

then there is 'Shit Tzu'....thats one without any animals

sorry couldnt resist

cheers

bob macalba

January 10. 2013 12:50 PM

2353

Knee High - good find.  We always suspected, as there seems to be a roster.  Now we have proof.

2353

January 10. 2013 12:53 PM

LadyInRed

Thanks for the links DMW. And I am happy to take the compliment of being a Bougainvillea. I love them, so very tropical oh so very Queensland.

I fell off my chair laughing at Tones in full firey garb. I can't wait until an Action-Abbott doll comes out so I can pull the head off it.

They had better keep their hands off compulsory voting.

LadyInRed

January 10. 2013 12:56 PM

LadyInRed

Jason

I just LOVED the stunt a day clip. So many outfits for my Action-Abbott doll. I'll have a fire truck, and a hammer and screw driver, oh and a hair net, and of course a fluro vest, oh and a pair of smugglers (sorry its the bogan in me), red of course.

LadyInRed

January 10. 2013 01:32 PM

bob macalba

ToM
A wise man once said

'CATS OUT OF THE BAG TROLL'.....and i agree

bob macalba

January 10. 2013 01:36 PM

LadyInRed

So many clangers from the LOTO. So many side shows to pick from. So much stuff out there, twitter is alive with them. Everyday single day heaps of people come up with TAbbott clangers (or Abbortisms) and present it for people to digest, sometimes in a serious way, often with humour, but all of it meant to show one and all the many reasons why this man should not be PM. He just keeps on throwing reasons out there to question his ability to be a credible candidate. The one thing he doesn't put out there are any policies, or even reasons to think that he has a balanced view of the world. So in that void we deride him, we goad him, we point out his many many shortcomings, and we fear his Catholicism because that is one thing he is happy to show us.....and for myself I don't like his moralising and his lack of understanding for others.

I get the impreesion that he thinks "If I put myself literally in others shoes, then people will se me as having empathy", or I might actually get what its like to have empathy. It doesn't work that way, empathy is genuine, it comes from another place, it is the ability to put yourself in anothers shoes, without doing it literally......huge difference. I don't wonder he gave away the priesthood, he could never be genuine.

LadyInRed

January 10. 2013 02:02 PM

bob macalba

Will Phony Abbort get rid of the carbon tax?
judging by the comments i think most people say not

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4458428.html

bob macalba

January 10. 2013 02:10 PM

Jason

LIR,
   Some more ideas!

pic.twitter.com/Dfq0LK9X

Jason

January 10. 2013 02:11 PM

Jason

TheFinnigans天地有道人无道‏@Thefinnigans

From Russian With Love or Putin It at the Ritz pic.twitter.com/Dfq0LK9X

Jason

January 10. 2013 02:12 PM

DMW

Andrew Leigh - Federal Member for Fraser (ALP) has an op-ed in today's Oz.

Fortunately he has posted it on his own blog as well so I will give that link and it will also save you from reading the selected comments I saw at the Oz.

Liberals are conservatives while Labor is the true party of Alfred Deakin
In the United States, if you want to insult a right-winger, call them a ‘liberal’. In Australia, if you want to insult a left-winger, call them a ‘Liberal’. In both countries, liberalism has become detached from its original meaning.

It’s time to bring Australian liberalism back to its traditional roots. Small-L liberalism involves a willingness to protect minority rights (even when they’re unpopular) and a recognition that open markets are the best way to boost prosperity.

http://www.andrewleigh.com/blog/?p=3690

Reminder to self DO NOT READ THE COMMENTS it is a dangerous undertaking.

DMW

January 10. 2013 02:35 PM

LadyInRed

ooooh Jason still quivering (with fright) at the Putin/Abbott analogy - scary. Perhaps its a new mental disease yet to be named?

But on a brighter note the horses look nice, I could have one of those for my Action-Abbott doll. Not the gun thought I'm a pacivist ...Ahimsa.....OM. What is it about wanting to be captured not wearing a shirt? oohh that reminds me I'll need some fury, fluffy black stuff, to stick to the chest of my Action-Abbott doll, of and some safety glasses....safety first.


See he just keeps on giving us those treasures to deride him on.

LadyInRed

January 10. 2013 02:42 PM

LadyInRed

DMW

I like Andre Leigh. He wrote a similar piece for the Global Mail.

As political commentator Peter Van Onselen argued recently, ‘It is high time the Liberal Party changed its name to the Conservative Party’

Interesting.

LadyInRed

January 10. 2013 03:08 PM

DMW

LiR
someone wrote:

Member for Fraser, former ANU economics professor and potential future Prime Minister Andrew Leigh wrote a superb book titled Disconnected ...  (my emphasis added)

'Interesting', (with that slight Schultz type accent).

The main point though is, if you come across AL's book Disconnected grab it and devour it is a good and informative read that I found very edumificational.

DMW

January 10. 2013 03:50 PM

MWS

Fact-checking of Truss's comment on bushfires emitting more CO2 than coal-fired power stations:

theconversation.edu.au/fact-check-do-bushfires-emit-more-carbon-than-burning-coal-11543

MWS

January 10. 2013 04:40 PM

LadyInRed

MWS

Thank goodness for fact checkers!

What is his point anyway? Another reason to do nothing? If we acted on climate change when it first became apparent perhaps we might have made a good start into stopping these extreme conditions.

He is my sitting member ........oh dear. Yup here's what he said:

“Indeed I guess there’ll be more CO2 emissions from these fires than there will be from coal-fired power stations for decades.” – acting Opposition leader, Warren Truss, January 9, 2013

So now we cann all just sit under a burnt tree and say well ...there yah go...no matter what we do these fires have stuffed it all up for us.

Libs are always looking for more reasons to do nothing to make ourselves feel good.

You can't do anything for people who simply want to be homeless......no point in doing anything on climate change......

HANG ON...THERE IS STILL SOMTHING WE CAN DO!

WE CAN STILL TELL WOMEN WHAT TO DO, AND WHAT NOT TO DO!

Better get that moralising book out Trussy and hand it to TAbbott, no point in giving the job to you no one listens to you Trussy......this is clearly a job for ACTION-ABBOTT MAN!

LadyInRed

January 10. 2013 04:44 PM

LadyInRed

DMW

Leigh's book is not on Amazon for Kindle.....pity.

LadyInRed

January 10. 2013 05:05 PM

Ad astra

MWS
Thank you for posting the piece on The Conversation about Warren Truss' misinformed statement about carbon emissions from bushfires.

It illustrates vividly how such statements can mislead if not challenged, and we cannot rely on the MSM to do so.  This article challenges Truss' outrageously inaccurate statement, and shows how grossly incorrect it is.

Everyone should read this piece of fact checking, as an illustration of how important such fact checking is, and could be in an election year.

theconversation.edu.au/fact-check-do-bushfires-emit-more-carbon-than-burning-coal-11543

Ad astra

January 10. 2013 05:14 PM

Patriciawa

<b>Peta!   Action Man Knows Better!</b>

Toby Abbott fighting fires
Gets all the photo ops his heart desires.
He much prefers this kind of story
To Peta’s drives for PR glory.

Easier here to look ridgy didge
Than storing ova in his fridge.
More fun too, dressed up to look tough,
Than all that father of the family stuff.

And why shouldn’t he claim expenses
Working on firefront defences?
These shots, though well away from flames,
Should validate his January claims.

And this bushfire emergency
Will help him solve the urgency
Of problems with the female voter
When he’s seen on stand-by rota.

Then their doubts will drop to zero.
Women love a big strong hero.
Yeah! This is a better campaign plan!
Besides, it’s the <b> ‘Real Tony! Action Man!’</b>

polliepomes.wordpress.com/.../

Patriciawa

January 10. 2013 05:26 PM

Jason

LIR,
   There's more!

http://tonyinthetele.tumblr.com/

Jason

January 10. 2013 06:23 PM

LadyInRed

Jason

Neighbours will be wondering what is so hilarious that I keep laughing out loud when its just me here. But seriously those photos are precious. ooops fell of my chair laughing - went and had another look!

LadyInRed

January 10. 2013 06:31 PM

Jason

LIR,
   http://twitpic.com/btxyll

Jason

January 10. 2013 06:39 PM

LadyInRed

Jason stop please its too much.

It must be the weather but I have been trying to stay focused.

So on a more serious note Ad astra makes a good point about making sure that when we find facts that challenge silly statements like the amount of carbon in the  bushfire smoke versus coal statement by Truss we need to try to ensure that more popele become aware of it. Where once that was the job of the MSM I doubt they will even bother to pick it up.

LadyInRed

January 10. 2013 06:58 PM

42 long

Truss makes himself a total goof. but nobody will be any the wiser. FACT has nothing whatsoever to do with it, when the LieNP speak .
   Talk about Thomson misleading parliament (which didn't stick) These guys mislead everybody (and get away with it) We do need a factchecker. Doesn't Canada have structures that penalise a deliberate lie?. I understand Faux News doesn't even operate there..
   Clearly Murdoch doesn't want the Labor Party in for quite a few commercial reasons. How is it legal to put out stories that aid that outcome without it being against the law?
   Once the LieNP are in power it is a fully paid up arm of Murdoch Reinhart et al and will do their bidding. Brave New World.

42 long

January 10. 2013 07:02 PM

Jason

42 long,
       "LNP" = (Lies Not Policies)

Jason

January 10. 2013 07:07 PM

bob macalba

Heres a poke in the eye for Rupert

www.abc.net.au/.../44597

bob macalba

January 10. 2013 07:30 PM

2353

bob - it wasn't there for long.  "Page not found"

2353

January 10. 2013 07:46 PM

Pikiranku

Jason, I don't know how you find these things but I'm glad you do!  
When someone upsets or depresses you there's nothing more therapeutic than a good long laugh at their expense.  
Thank you!  I love it!

Pikiranku

January 10. 2013 08:05 PM

KHTAGH


I think that about the same thing Bob

www.crikey.com.au/.../

KHTAGH

January 10. 2013 11:13 PM

Jason

LIR,
   Last one unless another one comes up!

twitter.com/.../1

Jason

January 11. 2013 01:36 AM

jane

42 long, Rupert tried to invade Canada, but was told to sling his hook, because under Canadian legislation, news has to be factual and truthful and Fox meets none of these requirements.

Pity we don't have the same legislation here.  

jane

January 11. 2013 01:48 AM

Casablanca

Jason,

On a recent Big Ideas Program on ABC24 a panel member said that 'what men fear most is being laughed at' so keep those photos of Abbott coming in.

I loved that MOCKumentary set of Abbott with Sgt Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band; Nelson Mandela; General Macarthur and at the moon landing, not to mention the resurrection. http://tonyinthetele.tumblr.com/

Someone elsewhere suggested that we need a 12 month calendar of Abbott Everywhere.

Casablanca

January 11. 2013 01:51 AM

Casablanca

Great News! Who would have thought it! Spin this Mr Hockey.


AUSTRALIA'S most needless wasteful spending took place under the John Howard-led Coalition government rather than under the Whitlam, Rudd or Gillard Labor governments, a study has found.

The International Monetary Fund study bills itself as the first to examine 200 years of government financial records across 55 leading economies.

It identifies only two periods of Australian "fiscal profligacy" in recent years, both during Mr Howard's term in office - in 2003 at the start of the mining boom and during his final years in office between 2005 and 2007.


Read more: www.smh.com.au/.../...inds-imf-20130110-2cj38.html

Casablanca

January 11. 2013 02:39 AM

Jason

Casablanca,
          Thank You! if his minders get it together they'll have him dressed in red hoops like "where's wally" lol!

Jason

January 11. 2013 07:12 AM

bob macalba

2353
that link i put up from the ABC 7:07 last night was only 9mins old when i put it up,  wonder why they pulled it so quickly?
censorship at 'my' ABC? surely not

bob macalba

January 11. 2013 07:19 AM

bob macalba

Patriciawa
loved your pome, just read it..always like to begin day with a smile..thankyou

42 long...jane
regarding Canadian media laws, heres a bit of info
www.yesmagazine.org/.../a-law-against-lying-on-the-news

cheers

bob macalba

January 11. 2013 07:28 AM

bob macalba

42long...jane
then theres this to get your head around

www.crtc.gc.ca/.../mcewen07.htm

cheers

bob macalba

January 11. 2013 07:32 AM

bob macalba

42long...jane
last one

www.journalismethics.info/media_law/index.htm

cheers

bob macalba

January 11. 2013 07:37 AM

Michael

Joe "Go to Hell" Hockey says, well, 'go to hell', in response to this story at the SMH www.smh.com.au/.../...-strings-20130110-2cj32.html that exposes John Howard's government as officially the most reckless spending Federal government.

Michael

January 11. 2013 07:43 AM

bob macalba

Michael
read the first comment after the story, then the slapdowns following that comment,  
cheers

bob macalba

January 11. 2013 09:34 AM

Ken

bob macalba

that link i put up from the ABC 7:07 last night was only 9mins old when i put it up,  wonder why they pulled it so quickly?
censorship at 'my' ABC? surely not


I also had that problem last night but found the article was still there if I went to the ABC news site, into "Just In" and scrolled down.  Perhaps just a link problem??

Ken

January 11. 2013 10:26 AM

Ken

Casablanca  Michael  bob macalba

Even though the Howard government left a surplus, what the IMF paper shows is that was only a small part of "what could have been".  Rather than save more or invest in infrastructure, Howard preferred to buy votes and, as Martin's article states, set up long term spending problems (structural deficit) for the Budget.  As Martin (and I do respect him highly as an economics writer) also points out, the lack of infrastructure spending actually contributed to productivity bottle necks.

I recall that Costello (actually means The Treasury officials) wanted a higher proportion of the surplus put into the Future Fund but Howard needed it for electioneering.

Howard followed the right's line of getting Government out of people's lives and giving money back to the individual.  Works fine if the private sector picks up the infrastructure cost but history shows that does not happen, at least not without huge government subsidies - only need to look at the problems in Sydney with the toll roads supposedly built with public-private partnerships, where the Government seems to bear the losses but not share in the profits. If Government builds the infrastructure on the basis that it adds to productivity, then profit and loss do not come into it, and it gains revenue from the taxes on the productivity increases.

Ken

January 11. 2013 10:27 AM

MWS

Our hoaxes good, your hoaxes bad.  On Eric Abetz linking the Whitehaven hoax to the Greens while ignoring the "Godwin Grech" beam in his own eye.  By Mike Seccombe

www.theglobalmail.org/.../

MWS

January 11. 2013 10:40 AM

LadyInRed

Jason

Great start to the day with our favorite firey a big laugh thanks.

LadyInRed

January 11. 2013 10:51 AM

DMW

From the Newspapers ...
   What the front pages are saying

via Front Pages Today - http://goo.gl/enTjx

It's the slightly after Morning Tea Edition with a liitle bit of trivia
Did you know that that in India tea made with a tea bag is called Dip Tea
Now behave yourselves, our own Mr T is nothing like a tea bag
tho' he does have strings that get pulled and ...
Stop it, it is naughty to poke fun at (self) important people

Back to the news

The Australian - http://goo.gl/3bnTO
Special unit to hear abuse claims
Union-friendly deal 'hurting productivity'
Burn-off ban to protect habitats fires up farmers
Housing scheme exceeds target (in remote indigenous communities)

The Sydney Morning Herald - http://goo.gl/1kOHj
Fugitive linked to arms dealer held
Nature’s wrath ... (a spectacular gust front associated with cyclone Narelle)
it is a good pic - Ed

The Daily Telegraph - http://goo.gl/JXc7d
Minutes later this man was shot in the head
SLASH AND BURN Exclusive: Government cuts firefighting funds

The Age - http://goo.gl/j6tKW
PSO wannabe linked to arms dealer
Hey, big spender: Howard the king of the loose purse strings

The Herald Sun - http://goo.gl/0wNCf
HERO COUPLE TELLS - how we saved our grandkids
Body in boot killer's plea to prison bosses - LET US MARRY

The Courier Mail - http://goo.gl/7NTLf
Grin and Tomic as Aussies rally
POWER SURGE - Electricity prices spike after generators mothballed

The Adelaide Advetiser - http://goo.gl/ApkdY
Stars can’t wait to hear from Lance
MATE HELD FOR MURDER - Victim was at wedding of his accused killer

The Hobart Mercury - http://goo.gl/J8x10
RELUCTANT HEROES - amazing image of Tammy Holmes and her five grandchildren huddling under a jetty

The NT Times - http://goo.gl/7f7VB
Frown I have the champers on ice - waiting to pop the cork but it ain't happening today - Ed
FRIENDLY FIRE - Probe on cause of resort blaze
Cheap Power Plan for NT

DMW

January 11. 2013 11:04 AM

bob macalba

Greg Hunt on a hiding to nothing, he is a team player though, poor bastard

http://www.abc.net.au/news/thedrum/

bob macalba

January 11. 2013 11:04 AM

LadyInRed

Gee The Australian dabling in a little hypocrisy....fancy that.

Australia's welfare system is crying out for comprehensive reform as much as its tax system is. Successive well-meaning changes have lead to an unduly complicated array of overlapping, even conflicting, payments with different rates and thresholds.

The old principle that welfare should exist only for those who genuinely need it appears no longer to hold.



www.theaustralian.com.au/.../story-e6frg71x-1226551405292

But what happened when the Government made moves to reduce transfer payments to families that earn over $150000 per year?


mattcowgill.wordpress.com/.../

LadyInRed

January 11. 2013 11:11 AM

LadyInRed

Resilient Julia, a prime pick for nomination (Australian of the Year)

www.theaustralian.com.au/.../story-fnboyn5s-1226548522268

LadyInRed

January 11. 2013 11:28 AM

MWS

More fact-checking, this time from the British Met Office:

metofficenews.wordpress.com/.../

MWS

January 11. 2013 12:51 PM

LadyInRed

Dairy farmers caught in price war

www.theage.com.au/.../...e-war-20130110-2cixi.html

Ultimately the public are the losers if we end up with no dairy farmers and have to import milk.

LadyInRed

January 11. 2013 01:12 PM

Ad astra

Folks
Thank you for your flow of comments.  I'm not going to be around today as I'm working on TPS Mail.

Ad astra

January 11. 2013 01:17 PM

LadyInRed

Good reads on Turnbull's hypocrisy and decit on NBN:


http://sortius-is-a-geek.com/?p=2673

delimiter.com.au/.../

LadyInRed

January 11. 2013 01:39 PM

LadyInRed

Senator Conroy has a lot to feel proud of with NBN rollout exceeding its target.

"By the end of 2012, NBN Co had commenced or completed construction for 784,592 homes and businesses across Australia.2

"This is an extraordinary promise… if they can do that I guess there'll be a lot of admiration…" and "Now if she (Julia Gillard) cannot deliver that then she will, that NBN will have completely failed." Malcolm Turnbull, Interview with David Speers, Sky News, 28 February 2012.



www.minister.dbcde.gov.au/.../001

LadyInRed

January 11. 2013 02:02 PM

42 long

Turnbull has responded on delimiter (not very well) and comments are still ongoing.
    Kim Carr's press statement is very interesting re the success of the NBN. I hope the Turnbull gets egg all over him with this, but of course he is only following orders from has spinning TOP leader Abbott. Bit of a crunch time ( unless no-one gets to hear of it)

42 long

January 11. 2013 02:49 PM

Gravel

Watched Julia, Nicola and Jenny announcing the Royal Commission into Child Sex Abuse.  They were wonderful.   Of course then to take the shine off, a question about Rudd saying something about Newstart payments.  Can't he just go away.  Every time Labor, especially Julia makes an important announcement, if it not stuntman cutting off Julia's air, it's Rudd.  With friends like him, who needs enemies.

Sorry about the rant, I've just had it up the eyeballs with this rubbish.

Gravel

January 11. 2013 03:24 PM

42 long

After serious consideration of their performance, I have decided that Tony's team deserve to win the next election as they really are " the best politicians that money can buy"
. With Kev as a friend you need no enemies. He IS a Dudd,
  He and his good friend Bishop J should elope.

42 long

January 11. 2013 04:05 PM

Psyclaw

LIR @ 11.11 am

Thanks for your link.

I submitted the following:

I nominate the PM, Ms Julia Gillard, for service to all Australians in the face of horrendous adversity from the Media and her political opponents, adversity mainly by way of personal attacks, and also by way of bloody minded obstructionism.

Her resilience , energy, commitment and insight into what constitutes a "better Australia for all" are incomparable.

Psyclaw

January 11. 2013 04:07 PM

KHTAGH

Howard rejects IMF's 'profligate spender' tag

"The study shows the Howard government clearly missed opportunities to effectively use the mining boom and strong global economic conditions to invest in Australia's future," Senator Wong said in a statement.


www.abc.net.au/.../4460900

KHTAGH

January 11. 2013 04:55 PM

2353

Knee high - as he would.  He did nothing wrong - just ask him!

2353

January 11. 2013 05:14 PM

LadyInRed

Good one Psyclaw, I like your style.

LadyInRed

January 11. 2013 05:16 PM

Jason

42 long,
       Not only is Turnbull copping it at delimiter, he's getting a workover on twitter as well!

PuffTheMagicDragon‏@PuffyTMD

@randlight @Snowy2307 @stevethompson49 @TurnbullMalcolm FTTN is getting piped water to the village tap & carting it by bucket to our home,

Jason

January 11. 2013 05:24 PM

LadyInRed

Independent Australia doing a good job of tracking down the facts. Mr Abbott will love this - its the Bible afterall:

JESUS CHRIST once said:

“Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” (John 8:7)



www.independentaustralia.net/.../

LadyInRed

January 11. 2013 05:36 PM

LadyInRed

People are takiing the mickey out of Mr Abbott at #StopTheStunts - honestly how is a person supposed to get any work done with all this silliness going on?

However, some very serious question to ask regarding Slipper and Tony's statement:

Prime Minister Julia Gillard should never have allowed Peter Slipper to become the Speaker of Parliament.

http://theaimn.com/2013/01/11/lets-ask-mr-abbott/

LadyInRed

January 11. 2013 06:23 PM

2353

LiR - surely if that is the case, the LNP should not have allowed Slipper to be their candidate at the 2010 election.  We could also ask why Abbot apparently happily attended Slipper's wedding and the parliamentary LNP was content to nominate Slipper as Deputy Speaker.

2353

January 11. 2013 07:12 PM

Ken

For those who may be interested, a discussion of “populism” in An Phoblacht.  Sinn Fein defends what “populism” means.  This raises interesting questions for Australian politics and, perhaps, where the Fifth Estate fits in this argument.

http://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/22613

Ken

January 11. 2013 07:29 PM

TalkTurkey

I have pleasure in adding my voice to the many who support the nomination of

Prime Minister
*J*U*L*I*A* *G*I*L*L*A*R*D*

As

Australian of the Year

There is no-one within a country mile of her achievements
in Health, Education, International Affairs, the spectacularly-managed Economy,
and in the Political arena itself, among other triumphs .

TalkTurkey

January 11. 2013 07:58 PM

MWS

I've been wondering about the "Infringement notice fee $25" on Tony Abbott's expenses claim.  A copy of the relevent bits can be found here:
www.independentaustralia.net/.../

Apparently this is a departmental processing fee (I assume because the department gets the fine, and they have to chase up the driver of the car).

I found this article in the Courier Mail (about the PM's car getting infringements):

Under parliamentary entitlement guidelines, MPs are entitled to a private vehicle in addition to use of a ComCar and hire cars.

The rules also allow nominated staff and family members to drive the cars.

The fines listed in the latest departmental expense documents - which lists MPs' claims to July 2012 - show they were issued between December 2, 2011, and March 10.

MPs must pay the fines out of their own pocket, together with a $25 departmental processing fee per fine.

A spokeswoman for Ms Gillard said: "Where incurred, traffic infringement notices are paid by the person responsible with no cost to the taxpayer. The infringements in question have been paid in full."


www.couriermail.com.au/.../story-fndo1uez-1226548166224

So according to the Courier Mail, MPs pay the fine AND an infringement fee of $25.  But Abbott claimed the infringement fees in his expenses!

MWS

January 11. 2013 08:13 PM

KHTAGH

For a laugh, watch the video at the end of the article it is a scream.

Australia burning: questions for Tony Abbott

www.independentaustralia.net/.../

KHTAGH

January 11. 2013 08:16 PM

MWS

I've just trawled through the guidelines for private plated vehicles:

www.finance.gov.au/.../2012_Guidelines_PPVs.pdf

Section 9.2
Where the Commonwealth is charged a fee in connection with a notice related to a fine or penalty referred to in clause 9.1, the Senator or Member will be asked to pay the Commonwealth an amount equal to the fee charged to the Commonwealth.


Who was driving Tony Abbott's car, what were the infringements and why is the taxpayer paying the infringement fee?

MWS

January 11. 2013 11:07 PM

Casablanca

Jason, LIR & Others

Love the new photo ops today at The Daily Telegraph reports on .... http://tonyinthetele.tumblr.com/

Tones at the Battle of Iwo Jima
Tones in the War Room with Obama & Hillary as they receive news of the assassination of Osama bin Laden

Casablanca

January 12. 2013 01:38 AM

Casablanca


Gird your newsfeeds: the game is on

On his official Twitter account, Tony Abbott has 93,000 followers compared with Julia Gillard's 328,000, while on Facebook his 27,000 fans are significantly dwarfed by the Prime Minister's 151,000. With his social media fanbase trailing well behind the Prime Minister's, the Opposition Leader might want to start brushing up on his social media skills before the federal campaign kicks off.

Read more: www.smh.com.au/.../...me-is-on-20130111-2clc1.html

Casablanca

January 12. 2013 07:17 AM

KHTAGH

Here is a thought, what if Roxon asked the AFP to charge Slipper so they could also now go after Abbortt?. they would have know about his expenses claims for sure

KHTAGH

January 12. 2013 09:55 AM

Michael

Here  www.smh.com.au/.../...mmission-20130111-2clbj.html is a classic example of why Australians cannot afford to have a Coalition Federal government.

Commenting on the royal commission into child abuse, Shadow Attorney General, 'Senator Brandis said the terms of reference appeared to be ''sufficiently comprehensive''.

''It is very important that the royal commission not be constrained in pursuing its inquiries in relation to all institutions, both public and private, where there is reason to believe child sexual abuse may have taken place. For instance, there is a great deal of evidence of widespread sexual abuse of children within indigenous communities, which the royal commission will have the opportunity to examine,'' he said.'

He starts out with the first sentence's sensible observation that nothing be allowed to constrain the royal commission in undertaking its task. All good.

And then... he kicks an easy target, going after the "indigenous communities" as if a community of any type is an 'institution, public or private'. Waving a red flag to draw attention away from churches, charities, state authorities, anyone who might be characterised as figures of established authority, and slams into one sector of Australian society.

Brandis and his ilk are bastards of the lowest order, truly abusive in words and attitudes, always seeking to turn attention away from the real problems to the most easily traducible targets. That's how Conservatives work, and Brandis has reminded us of that all over again in an election year.

Be warned or be buggered, Australia!

Michael

January 12. 2013 10:12 AM

Pappinbarra Fox

I understand that the NT intervention had medical examination of many aboriginal at risk kids and found that there was very little if any sex abuse. Other types of abuse were far more prevalent but not necessarily perpetrated by adults. The point is the early hype that underpinned the Howard & Brandt intervention was shown to be false bt it is still being repeated today by the likes of Brandis. Never let a good lie die seems to be the motto.

Pappinbarra Fox

January 12. 2013 11:17 AM

DMW

From the Newspapers ...
   What the front pages are saying

via Front Pages Today - http://goo.gl/enTjx

The Saturday Brunch Edition - without croisants (cos I ain't in Paris)
Hark - do I hear the sound of a popping cork?

The Weekend Australian - http://goo.gl/3bnTO
Growing cabinet push for dole rise
We love a sunburnt country but, seriously, enough with the record-breaking heatwave
Sweeping powers for abuse inquiry

The Sydney Morning Herald - http://goo.gl/1kOHj
Sex abuse victims may get payouts
End of the roadhouse for pair who made desert bloom

The Daily Telegraph - http://goo.gl/JXc7d
Ellen Tunes into Sydney
Billion Dollar Drain

The Saturday Age - http://goo.gl/j6tKW
Hospital cheifs in fight for beds
Melbourne’s Open door to China as tennis becomes an Asian hit
Abuse victims may get payout

The Herald Sun - http://goo.gl/0wNCf
HOME WAIT TAKES TOLL - Elderly die in public housing waits
Talk of the town - pic of Ellen & Portia

The Courier Mail - http://goo.gl/7NTLf
Magic chance for stayer
NUMBERS GAME - Public Service Chiefs panicked as axe fell - http://goo.gl/wrO5t

The Adelaide Advetiser - http://goo.gl/ApkdY
Young Modra’s gift of life
MONEY FOR NOTHING - Millions of dollars wasted on needless warranties

The Hobart Mercury - http://goo.gl/J8x10
Flight of Mercy
Bushfire Survival Guide

The NT Times - http://goo.gl/7f7VB
cue suitably awsome music - take the champers off ice
CROCS !!!!!
JAW-SOME - Ernormous croc caught
Hero Firie robbed while fighting blaze

Folks I feel my mission is complete as at long last we have crocs
Yep there is more 'cos the Courier Mail features at its' online frontpage -

http://goo.gl/Rgct
All we need now is a few sharks Smile

DMW

January 12. 2013 11:31 AM

Miglo

Hi Casablanca,

This may interest you in regards to our pollies and the social media.

cafewhispers.wordpress.com/2012/07/03/polls-apart/

Miglo

January 12. 2013 11:46 AM

Truth Seeker

Hey swodsters, there is increasing talk about the corruption of the LNP in their efforts to win at any cost, which I have covered in My Arsegate series of poems, although I am considering "Arsegate for professionals" as the last in the series.   Smile

But I thought it was time to revisit  some of the stupidity that characterises  Abbott and co and so I have posted my poem "Run Rabbott run" to highlight the puerile nature of the 'man' (?) who would be King, for those that might have missed it.

http://truthseekersmusings.wordpress.com/

Cheers   Smile   Smile

Truth Seeker

January 12. 2013 11:51 AM

LadyInRed

Casablanca thanks - Photo's are memories that keep on giving.

Nice digging MWS - that does look suspect. But that's the thing when you open up something like this because it suits a political purpose, it might just backfire.

Ken

That article on polularism was very interesting. When we call TAbbott, or politicians, a polulist we are talking in this vein:

[The charge of populism is rarely complimentary. It suggests a politics of pandering to the people irrespective of the costs. It pits popularity against wisdom and short-term political gain against long-term social and economic sustainability.


I think you might be right.. the 5th estate is people saying I know longer believe everything that is being dished up to me.

Isn't the 5th estate trying to help drown out the above form of populism (you are doing it tough here is a handout in the form of middle class welfare, vote for me) and mobilise the true populism that Sin Fein defends?

So, like most things there is the good (trying to get the true voice of the people out there) and then there is the bad (politicians using populism in a sinister way). Or, have I misunderstood the article. Its an interesting discussion that perhaps we can have.

We seek to mobilise these people in opposition

LadyInRed

January 12. 2013 11:56 AM

MWS

Tim Flannery in the Guardian:

The breaking of so many temperature records indicates that Australia's climate is shifting. This is supported by analysis of the long-term trend. Over the past 40 years we've seen a decline in the number of very cold days, and the occurrence of many more very hot days. All of this was predicted by climate scientists decades ago, and is consistent with the increasing greenhouse gas concentration in the atmosphere.

www.guardian.co.uk/.../australia-burns-attitudes-changing-too-late

MWS

January 12. 2013 12:39 PM

KHTAGH

straight from the horses mouth swords folk


KHTAGH     KHTAGH @khtagh   12 Jan
@CraigEmersonMP @grumpyMichael @edmundtadros Minister please tell us all you will have an inquiry into LOTO involvement into #ashbygate

Craig Emerson MP     
@CraigEmersonMP
@khtagh @grumpyMichael @edmundtadros A complaint about Ashby matter has already been lodged with the Federal Police.

KHTAGH

January 12. 2013 01:27 PM

KHTAGH

If you aren’t alarmed about climate, you aren’t paying attention

I have no desire to dance that dismal do-si-do again. But it is worth noting that I find the notion of “alarmism” in regard to climate change almost surreal.

grist.org/.../

KHTAGH

January 12. 2013 01:53 PM

TalkTurkey




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leqHnUM64HU

Wastrel Spender

Johnnie when you raised our tax (Ba-ROOOM!)
We could see you were a man of corruption, a wastrel spender!
Mean natured - so unkind -
Well Johnnie now you're gonna get a piece of my mind!
Because when it comes down to facts (Ba-ROOOM!)
You just splashed the cash you raised from the GST -
Wastrel spender! (wastrel spender!)
O-o-o-o-on your wastrel spending spree!
Da da-da-da da da-dum!  
Da da-da-da da da-dum!

You just tried to buy Votes! Votes! Votes!
With your barrels of Pork! Pork!
Showed your rich mates a Good Time!
They all had such a Good Time!
So let me get right to the point:
We won't cop your pork*-barrelling any more!
Wastrel Spender [Wastrel Spender]
Wastrel Spender [Wastrel Spender]
Wastrel Spender [Wastrel Spender]
Weeeee - are gonna win this War!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leqHnUM64HU

*Original:
"I don't pop my cork for everyone I see ..." (GREAT line!)

Pop my cork . . . Cop your pork . . . Just wouldn't want you to miss my hard-won Spoonerism . . . Smile

TalkTurkey

January 12. 2013 02:19 PM

Casablanca

Hi Miglo,

Thanks for that link back to your article Polls Apart from July 2012. I agree with your observation that the polls cannot be accurate because they do not survey younger people by virtue of only calling landline phones. Older age cohorts tend to have landlines as well as mobiles but many in the younger age cohorts have only mobile phones.

You state in your article that

“The Liberal Party of Australia has its own Facebook Page and has a miserable 23,000 followers.  The ALP does not have its own official page”.

However, the first commenter on your article provided a link to the Labour Connect website – I am not sure when this was established even though I have been receiving emails from ‘Labour Connect’ for many years. The ‘Labor Connect’ Facebook has 14,690 Likes. The address is: https://www.facebook.com/LaborConnect

There is a link from Labor Connect to an Australian Families page which looks very useful but so far has only 2,019 Likes. Check it out at:  www.facebook.com/FamiliesInAustralia?group_id=0

There may well be other Labor Facebook pages for a range of different policy and program issues. If so, it seems like a very good strategy even if at this stage the take-up is not huge.

We need to plug these websites whenever we can. They will help in fact-finding exercises too.

Casablanca

January 12. 2013 02:55 PM

DMW

Argumentalist ‏@argumentalist
"By following the predictions of left wing climate conspiracists, the global weather system is revealing an unacceptable political bias" .
Retweeted by John Birmingham

DMW

January 12. 2013 03:09 PM

Patriciawa

Hello everybody!   I've been wanting to write, particularly to lovely, brave and sometimes it seemed lonely KHTAGH, but it does hurt, not so much the arm/wrist but my shoulder and neck.  I'm a sook so I've mainly been reading you all here and at CW, as well as doing a bit of cut and paste when relevant of old stuff which is fresh to the new leftie offshoot of PB at http://pbxmastragics.com/.   I like it there 'cos I can read my favorite PB commenters at more leisure - so far anyway.

MWS - what's the average time for bone healing before the casts come off?

Apart from pain I've had  writer's block which Sue at CW helped me break for Miglo's post at cafewhispers.wordpress.com/2013/01/09/action-man.  I'm particularly glad about that because when I did my usual copy over here I got a lovely compliment from bob macalba a new name amongst friends like  TS, TT, gravel, janice, ewe2   and others who like pomes.   Thanks to you all for your encouragement. It means a lot on down days.  A big help.

I had some other help today, from a fine young woman, in my  garden which is mainly trees and native ground cover. I was explaining to her that I'm not a great one for formal flower beds, except for a wall of sweet peas facing me here at my desk once a year!  Seem odd?    

Sweet peas are my favorite flower next to poppies, and like the poppies they remind me of my dad many many decades ago.  I'd badly burned my hand and arm, playing with fire as a 4y.o and my dad, the exiled Friday night boozer and wife beater, turned up to take me to the hospital and sit around with  me in his arms until I was treated and bedded down.  He visited me next day with a huge bunch of sweet peas which he used to grow on his allotment and would sell at the pub if he could.  I didn't know that then, of course.  All I knew then was my dad coming  towards me with all these beautiful pink and white and blue flowers.  Just for me.      

Patriciawa

January 12. 2013 03:39 PM

MWS

Patricia, I had only a hairline fracture and spent four weeks in a cast.  I think six weeks is more usual for a more serious fracture.  Sympathies to you, I broke my arm in winter and only had to worry about keeping it warm, keeping the arm cool must be difficult at the moment.  BTW, you will find the arm very stiff when the cast comes off - it only takes two weeks of no movement for tendons to tighten up.  You will need to do regular stretching to get the flexibility back in the arm.

Bushfire Bill on climate change:
pbxmastragics.com/.../#comment-7822

MWS

January 12. 2013 04:10 PM

KHTAGH

      

TRADE MINISTER CRAIG EMERSON OPINION PIECE - Do the right thing by our kids and our planet - 12 January 2013

docs.google.com/.../edit

KHTAGH

January 12. 2013 04:17 PM

Casablanca

Patriciawa

My dear departed brother had a saying, "Mum said, 'Cheer up! Things could be worse'. So I cheered up and sure enough things got worse!!" It always made me laugh to hear this play on words and twisted logic.

Casablanca

January 12. 2013 04:24 PM

KHTAGH

Your so nice Patriciawa, take care mate it will get better with time.

KHTAGH

January 12. 2013 05:08 PM

Ad astra

Folks
I've read your comments with interest, and the accompanying links.  I'm still working on TPS Mail, which is taking a lot of time, so I won't be commenting much until it's finished.

Ad astra

January 12. 2013 05:12 PM

Ad astra

Patriciawa
I'm sorry to read that your arm is still causing you trouble.  I hope you are soon able to return to typing comfortably.

KHTAGH
I hope things are settling down where you are.  The fire risk seems to be easing.

Ad astra

January 12. 2013 06:04 PM

KHTAGH

AA

Yes they are slowly, the main fire is still burning some 40+ miles  away 45,000 htrs burnt now, we need rain, lots of it to put it out.

We are hand feeding our stock now, so many nice people donating feed for them, its times like these that you see the opposite of Abbortt, human nature at is best. Not the raw force of personal ambition at all costs, even using a disaster to promote his own stunts.

  Thank you for your concerns AA & everyone.

KHTAGH

January 12. 2013 06:26 PM

ausdavo

The release by C Emerson, quoted by KHTAGH refers in part to "the precautionary principle" which is demonstrated in many movies including such events as oncoming potential meteorite collisions etc.

An example I like to offer conservatives (there are few "liberals" remaining in the LNP) is as follows...

If I offer you a bottle of 100 aspirin tablets but tell you that one of those tablets is in fact cyanide will you take a single tablet for your headache?
The precautionary principle kicks in for rational people straight away. They won't take even one tablet because there is a 1% chance they'll be ingesting cyanide. Similarly even if most of the climate science was wrong and scientists concluded only a 1% chance of catastrophic changes to our climate the rational person says "lets do something about it NOW to safeguard the future of our descendent's world"

The problem is ...have we already left it too late and effectively taken too many of the aspirin tablets bringing us closer to that fateful cyanide tablet.

The LNP appear to be simply playing a game of "Deal or No Deal" with this important principle. They appear to be ignoring their rational thoughts simply to try and regain power.
  
Can people like this really be trusted with the reins of government?

ausdavo

January 12. 2013 07:39 PM

Ken

Lady in Red

You are right -  there are the two sides of populism.  But as the Sinn Fein writer points out it is also about basic democracy, instead of letting the politicians and the technocrats decide what is best for everyone.

It is a key plank of "development" that local communities should identify the problems.  The proviso is that sufficient information is provided to allow them to make informed decisions.  The current emphasis on "sound bites" does nothing to help people understand issues and make informed decisions.  

The Fifth Estate is one avenue for the voice of the people but as has been emphasised here recently, there should be an emphasis on "facts", on being genuinely informed.

And glad you found the article interesting.

Ken

January 12. 2013 08:11 PM

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)


It’s a g’day from me and a little apology for disappearing for a wee bit. (As I get ready to go on the road again in Feb, and indeed when I go, playing with you lovely lot may be a bit erratic.)

DMW: Lovely to see your gaily insouciant quest for the croc has met with a catch! Bravo, and also for the brilliant work on ‘From the newspapers’. A little yellow bird might fancy these becoming … a regular item maybe …

TT: two fine ‘pomes’ set to a tune … Well, you know how one feels about the way you scan Smile. And now you’ve added spoonerisms! Swoon.

PatriciaWA: a new pome from you means your arm is slowly getting better, I hope … and oh how I like ‘Then their doubts will drop to zero./'Women love a big strong hero.’ Positively Jungian Smile (or am I muddling my shrinks here…)

LiR: I’ve picked up Andrew Leigh’s book ‘Disconnected’ from Amazon on my Kindle a couple of days ago, so hopefully you can find it. Searched under the title - I think.

Homework (since you’ve all been having way too much fun) … oops no  …bit of readin’:

The Colour Purple  David Horton
The record high temperatures in Australia this week, followed by devastating bushfires, were an obvious "teachable moment" for the media to join the dots for the public. This is what climate scientists have been predicting, this is what happened, this is what the future holds. Instead there was again a studious silence. It was as if there was no such thing as climate change, as if (like the America drought last year) these things were happening by chance in some world in which nothing else had changed.
davidhortonsblog.com/2013/01/10/the-colour-purple/

Moylan’s anti-coal message is an international one  David Shearman
The causal links between coal and ill health are as secure as those between smoking and cancer. Primarily as a result of air pollution, coal causes cardiac, respiratory, and other illnesses and shortens lives, particularly in communities near coalmines and power stations. There are many other toxic and harmful pollutants released into the environment, such as mercury and other heavy metals.
theconversation.edu.au/moylans-anti-coal-message-is-an-international-one-11515

Media control and getting real about climate change  Rodney E. Lever
The vexing question of climate change remains a major issue.
It’s a subject that’s made more confusing, than it already is, by its coverage by the media. It is yet another clear demonstration of traditional media being sloppy and adhering to lazy practices. It appears the media is disinterested in real investigative reporting, simply because it all costs too much and takes too long. Chasing celebrities around the streets is much more financially rewarding than trying to discover if the planet is really doomed.
www.independentaustralia.net/.../

The empty mantle  Andrew Elder
When your mainstream media coverage is stuck on an issue that makes people squirm (Peta Credlin's fertility) within a wider theme that is death for your side of politics (women: Tony Abbott just doesn't get them, but his side of politics wants him to be Prime Minister anyway), you need to change the subject fast. The Liberals chose the wrong guy (Josh Frydenberg) and the wrong subject (workplace relations).
andrewelder.blogspot.com.au/.../...pty-mantle.html

Politicians In The Wild – The Abbott  Turn Left 2013
Today’s feature will look at the species known as The Abbott (Antonius Bbatis). The Abbott is a member of the Stunted Redneckgenus, of the Liberal family.

The Abbott is an introduced species, having been brought to Australia in the 1960s from London, UK. The Stunted Redneckrefuses to be domesticated, as they see that as a challenge to their masculinity, and instead, the Abbott prefers to run feral.
turnleft2013.wordpress.com/.../

2010 Federal Election - Would Optional Preferential Voting Have Changed the Result?  Anthony Green
On ABC radio's AM program this morning, Opposition Spokeswoman on Electoral Matters, Bronwyn Bishop, argued the case for a Coalition government introducing optional preferential voting (or OPV) for Federal election.

A similar report in the Australian carried comment that the Coalition believed the change would disadvantage Labor and the Greens.

Added together these two stories produce the perfect position for any politician, arguing for a policy that backs a matter of principle, but also helpfully aligns with political self-interest.
blogs.abc.net.au/.../...ve-changed-the-result.html

What is the “Minchin Protocol” that was denied to Mr Peter Slipper?  Geeksrulz
Former Senator Nick Minchin was forced to repay $3,150 in travel allowances after admitting he breached a parliamentary convention during the election campaign in 1996.

The convention says that ministers and shadow ministers are not allowed to claim travel allowance after their party leader’s policy speech until the election.

Here are the press stories at the time.
australiansforhonestpolitics.wordpress.com/.../

AN OPEN LETTER TO MALCOLM TURNBULL Sortius the Geek
Dear Mr Turnbull,
I write this letter out of frustration & disappointment in your current discourse regarding the state & future of Australian telecommunications. I have been working in IT for almost 20 years & have been supportive of any positive change to Australia’s ailing copper network. Over the past few years you have done nothing but attempt to sabotage the largest infrastructure project Australia (maybe even the world) has ever seen, all for political gain while not considering the consequences of your actions.

After watching the speech you gave at Woodford Folk Festival  [ www.abc.net.au/.../4445528 ]I feel that your hypocrisy has gone too far.
http://sortius-is-a-geek.com/?p=2673

The elder statesman  Miglo
Like any young Labor voter in the 1970s I despised Malcolm Fraser with a passion for his role in the dismissal of the Whitlam Government, and I continued to have contempt for the man throughout his political life.

One of us has changed for I now quite admire him, as do many old Labor people. Or maybe none of us have changed; the changes being the state of politics that surround us and after all these years we have found some middle ground.
cafewhispers.wordpress.com/.../

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)

January 12. 2013 08:49 PM

Patriciawa

Thank you Janet for the encouragement. Thank you too for all the reading you've provideded me.   You too, DMW.

Ad Astra, it's not that bad.   It's just that after the dream run of good health all these years I've found coming to terms with a bit of discomfort in a Freo heat wave tougher than I expected!  Pride and all that too!  I truly am blessed with loving family around.

My darling daughter took me to seee Quartet this arvo,  If you haven't yet, go and see it.   All of you, young and old.  

Patriciawa

January 12. 2013 09:19 PM

DMW

LiR
apologies I missed your comment about not finding Disconnected for Kindle until Janet mentioned it above and I went back and looked

Ooooops Smile

Try this link it should get you to it http://goo.gl/r94Fn

I bought the paperback soon after release and I think the Kindle price is a ripoff but well what can you do although I love my Kindle reaader sometimes I get very frustrated with 'Title not available in Aus' and some of the excessive pricings

DMW

January 12. 2013 09:35 PM

DMW

bleedin 'eck

another oops

Jayfor thanks for the Saturday night readings Smile

DMW

January 13. 2013 08:30 AM

KHTAGH

Patriciawa
Looks like you are going to get some good rain out of this cyclone.

KHTAGH

January 13. 2013 08:35 AM

DMW

The Sunday Papers
  What the front pages are saying

via Front Pages Today - http://goo.gl/enTjx

The I'm giddy with excitement edition

The Sunday Telegraph - http://goo.gl/uizVi
'Now I'm ready for a fight' - Julia Gillard's letter to voters http://goo.gl/Ez1Xn
FIRE TAX - Special Report: Homeowners to pay new $300 Levy

The Sun-Herald - http://goo.gl/HL4NX
Hate Laws Too Soft - Premier sparks free speech debate with vilification inquiry

The Sunday Age - http://goo.gl/ZksS3
In a small corner of the state, the bush returns to life
Police reopen bribery cases

The Sunday Mail - http://goo.gl/5tGei
CLASSROOM SMACKDOWN
SHARK ALARM - Look what they hooked just 400m off the beach
AND
Predator Patrol On The Hunt For The Oceans MOST Feared

Thanks Curious Snail not one but TWO SHARK stories I am in delerium

DMW

January 13. 2013 09:04 AM

Gravel

Knee High
Have you caught up with your missing friend yet.  Isn't wonderful when people come together to help, I hope Australians will always continue with this part of our culture.

Patriciawa
It is hard as we get on a bit to have to rely on other people, when I was ill twice within two years, I learned to accept help.  I actually had no choice, and I am eternally grateful for that help.  By the way, I hope you are writing (when you can) all these things about your childhood and all your struggles for you children.  You would have a very interesting book with the life you have led.  You may not think it much, but from a virtual stranger I find your stories (as well as your pomes) fascinating.

Gypsy
Thanks for those links.  As things have been a bit slow here I've spent my spare time reading and posting at http://pbxmastragics.com  Bushfie Bill and Hillbilly Skeleton(C@tmomma) are there and writing great posts, like they used to do here.  Most of the group are PB contributors and a few lurkers like me who no comment.  I have found I don't even go to PB now as this site is much more pleasant, and I feel comfortable there, like I  do here.

Talk Turkey
Another great one. Thanks. Smile

Truth Seeker
It is great to see you spreading your stuff around, it is really worthwhile and maybe you could put some of your verse on the above link. I know many will appreciate it.

This is the year we need to utilise the new tools Ad Astra will be giving us, and when we have time, to contribute to other blogs to try and negate a lot of the lies and negativeness out there.

Gravel

January 13. 2013 09:07 AM

DMW

Oh how the worm turns ...

O'Farrell moves to strengthen hate laws  Sean Nicholls @SMH
The controversial commentators Alan Jones and Andrew Bolt are due to be called before an inquiry that will consider strengthening anti-discrimination laws to make it easier to convict people for serious racial vilification.
The inquiry was ordered by the Premier, Barry O'Farrell, who is concerned there have been no successful criminal prosecutions in the history of the NSW laws and that they have fallen out of step with community expectations.
The move is likely to inflame the debate over freedom of speech, amid warnings that broadening the laws could be dangerous and unacceptable.

www.smh.com.au/.../...ate-laws-20130112-2cmh5.html

I had to recheck the calendar, and no, it isn't April, it is still January and apparently this is for real.

DMW

January 13. 2013 09:20 AM

bob macalba

DWM
  Crocs one day, sharks the next,..order restored

cheers

bob macalba

January 13. 2013 09:57 AM

DMW

cheers bob,
the delirium is just palpable - the corks have well and truly popped and the bubbles are effervescent and I am lost for further words ...

thank the deities Smile

DMW

January 13. 2013 10:11 AM

2353

DMW - O'Farrell looking at hate laws is an interesting development.  As Jones is based in NSW, he would be affected and if Bolt was republished in NSW (Australia's largest market) it would be captured as well.

And for your front pages -all we need now is a good cyclone story for the trifecta!

2353

January 13. 2013 10:23 AM

Psyclaw

The Sunday Telegraph front page yells: "Now I'm ready for a fight" from the PM.

They have a brief I/V report on P9 and a double page spread in the Agenda section which contains the PM's actual statement to us.

Funny thing though, as far as I can see, nowhere in the paper other than the headline itself (in inverted commas ie allegedly direct speech) does the PM say or write anything like that phrase.

If anyone can see the PM talking in this style in what she has said, please let me know.

The word 'fight' does appear once in her text ie WTTE "my father always taught me to fight on...... (in adverse situations)" but this use of the word refers to pushing on, to not giving up.... it is not nuanced towards having a fight.

Maybe the message the editor wants to convey is that Mr Abbott is not the only pug.

This fits with the constant MSM reference to both sides being equally responsible for the contemporary  level of toxicity in politics.

Psyclaw

January 13. 2013 10:40 AM

bob macalba

DMW..2353

Fatty O'Farty looking at hate laws is an interesting development,...always the question-what have the tories got to gain?  censorship?  cramping the Fighting Fifth?  
im always wary of tories pretending they care,

cheers

bob macalba

January 13. 2013 11:47 AM

bob macalba

Off topic but interesting.[i think so anyhow]

www.guardian.co.uk/.../fritz-vollrath-spiders-tim-adams

cheers

bob macalba

January 13. 2013 12:23 PM

KHTAGH

Truly a fascinating read Bob.

KHTAGH

January 13. 2013 01:13 PM

Ken

A comment on the the use of the web, trolls, etc., by Robert Fisk.  First appeared in The Independent – this copy from “Common Dreams”.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/01/11-7

Ken

January 13. 2013 01:22 PM

DMW

As it is still summer and the political 'silly-season' is still in full swing it's a good time for a book or three and/or some long reads.

If you want some really good writing that mixes humour with some down home truths you won't go far wrong if you read some of the late Joe Bageant's books or essays.

Joe's site is a treasure trove http://www.joebageant.com/joe/

As a primer the essay ranked No. 1 in the top ten most read is a good one:

AMERICA: Y UR PEEPS B SO DUM?
Ignorance and courage in the age of Lady Gaga

Two hundred years ago no one would have thought sheer volume of available facts in the digital information age would produce informed Americans. Founders of the republic, steeped in the Enlightenment as they were, and believers in an informed citizenry being vital to freedom and democracy, would be delirious with joy at the prospect. Imagine Jefferson and Franklin high on Google.

The fatal assumption was that Americans would choose to think and learn, instead of cherry picking the blogs and TV channels to reinforce their particular branded choice cultural ignorance, consumer, scientific or political, but especially political. Tom and Ben could never have guessed we would chase prepackaged spectacle, junk science, and titillating rumor such as death panels, Obama as a socialist Muslim and Biblical proof that Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs around Eden. In a nation that equates democracy with everyman's right to an opinion, no matter how ridiculous, this was probably inevitable. After all, dumb people choose dumb stuff. That's why they are called dumb.

www.joebageant.com/.../...y-ur-peeps-b-so-dum.html

To many it is a fantastic essay that could just as easily translate to Australia.

If you want a bit more Joe and Phillip Adams had a great discussion about his book Deer Hunting with Jesus: Dispatches From America's Class War that was, well just have a listen:
www.abc.net.au/.../3004916

That line:
... a nation that equates democracy with everyman's right to an opinion, no matter how ridiculous, ...
says so much

DMW

January 13. 2013 01:31 PM

LadyInRed

Thanks Jan got the book

Thanks Ken, of course basic democracy should be about the popular voice, and I believe it used to be. But unscrupulous people, those in power with the money, have learned how to manipulate so that what is popular now is often set by the people with money. And of course Murdoch is one of the first that comes to mind. Jones, Bolt, Ackerman finding ways through peoples general dissatisfaction to manipulate and distort the publics perception. This photo tells the tale, you could put anyone of the above names in the place of the Rich Man:

Working man: I vote Liberal to keep Foreigners, minorities, women, socialists, gays and liberals from ruining my life.

Rich man: I vote Liberal to keep this moron from realising I'm the only one ruining his life.


http://twitter.yfrog.com/ocmd2yfdj


This comment from Bushfire Bill - so good it deserves more airing:

By next week Julia Gillard will have been PM longer than Kevin Rudd. She will be the future, as well as the present.

In clinging to the slogans of the past, the Coalition has tied a yoke around its neck, urged on by an ever diminishing gaggle of crazies in their own party, egged on by the troglodytes like Bolt and the zombies at 2GB.

As the dams get lower and the paddocks get drier, Labor’s stocks will get better and better, and in an election year too!

Pretty soon the Coalition will realize this. But it’ll be too late.

The blood letting will be a joy to watch as the progressives within the Liberal and National Parties duke it out with the retros to see who gets to control the little puddle of mud in an acre of dried clay that they have left themselves to squabble over.


LadyInRed

January 13. 2013 01:53 PM

DMW

Ken,
The Fisk article is an interesting read. This quote:
“Instant access to information does not mean instant access to knowledge, much less wisdom,”
says a lot and I reckon Joe says it much better (After all, dumb people choose dumb stuff. That's why they are called dumb.)  Smile

DMW

January 13. 2013 02:20 PM

LadyInRed

DMW

The interview with Joe Bageant was so good got that book for my Kindle as well. They really don't understand the power, and the responsibility, of the collective.

LadyInRed

January 13. 2013 02:35 PM

DMW

LIR
if you haven't already you will possibly turn so 'totally in love with Joe' and he could also keep you up all night.

I hope you will forgive me for the intro Tong

DMW

January 13. 2013 02:38 PM

MWS

All of you who are thinking of getting an ereader, please read this review of the Kindle Fire:

http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Gutenberg:Kindle_Fire_Review

I bought a Samsung Galaxy 7.  I can read Kindle books using the Kindle app, but I can also read all of the books that use the EPUB format (the industry standard), using another app (there are a lot on the market, usually free). This means I can get the lowest price for an ebook, and I don't have to buy exclusively from Amazon.

In addition, the WA public libraries digital media collection and the LISWA collection are only in EPUB format, not Kindle (because of problems with Amazon).  If any of you in WA want to know more about the ebooks available through public libraries, I am happy to provide instructions.

MWS

January 13. 2013 06:45 PM

Ken

DMW

Agree.  The extent of info available on the web is both good and bad.

I used to say that once I read one newspaper and got one view of the news.  Now I can look at dozens of reports and decide which one is the best, or take account of a number of different interpretations and form my own opinion.

The downside is that, because there are so many interpretations of the news, people tend to find the view they like.  They are not forced to confront their own opinions because they are able to find stuff on the web that reinforces their opinions.

Ken

January 13. 2013 08:06 PM

Jason

LIR,
   This has to be the best of the photo's!

twitter.com/.../1

Jason

January 13. 2013 08:38 PM

DMW

Jason
I think I have the words of the switched on young ones right:

That pic is so totally sick ...  Smile

DMW

January 13. 2013 09:04 PM

MWS

I really agree with the sentiments in this article:

On too many days I find myself cloistered at home, curtains drawn tight against the sun, air-conditioning on high, with one eye on the television, the other on the calendar, wishing it was March and the whole wretched business was over.

I'm sick of the fires, the northerlies, skin cancer, water bills, power bills, the short-tempered motorists, the public transport that won't run, the crowds at the beaches, malls and movie theatres and of what might happen to me if I swim outside the flags. Most of all I'm sick of the relentless, remorseless, god-awful heat.

And we're not even halfway through yet
.

www.theage.com.au/.../...untry-20130112-2cmkr.html

MWS

January 13. 2013 09:22 PM

bob macalba

MWS

I agree...bring on autumn, my favorite time of year as far as temperatures go.... always a song to suit occasion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML9h3I5Uktw

cheers

bob macalba

January 13. 2013 10:02 PM

Ad astra

Folks
Thank you for your comments and links.

I've been flat out all day working on TPS Mail  We are slowly getting there.  I hope you will enjoy it when it's ready.

Ad astra

January 13. 2013 11:45 PM

DMW

Apologies one and all I forgot to point you to this one on Saturday.

Let's be upfront - we're being led up the garden path Michelle Griffin  Age/National Times
''WHY is everyone obsessed with leadership?'' This isn't a cry from the Canberra press gallery; it's a primary-school student venting after a series of interviews for select-entry classes for grade 7. It wasn't enough that he was sufficiently academically able to rank in the top 10 per cent of the entrance exams, or that his class scores were consistently above grade level.
www.nationaltimes.com.au/.../...0130111-2cl74.html

It is a very good read that offers some good insights on the cult of 'leadership' and the 'sting in the tail' toward the end is ...

just go read it

DMW

January 13. 2013 11:50 PM

DMW

Ken @ 6:45 PM
I have been pondering on your comment as I toddled around the shed tonight

I am still to appropriately confront my opinions so that I can further the conversation ...

DMW

January 14. 2013 07:32 AM

KHTAGH

Gravel

  Yes he is ok, but house gone, so sad as it was old 12 months old.

KHTAGH

January 14. 2013 10:26 AM

LadyInRed

Jason

Great start to the week with a laugh:

la la la la la .....it's fun to stay......la la la

No man does it all by himself
I said young man, put your pride on the shelf
And just go there to the Y.M.C.A.
I'm sure they can help you today

It's fun to stay at the Y.M.C.A.
It's fun to stay at the Y.M.C.A.
They have everything for young men to enjoy
You can hang out with all the boys




LadyInRed

January 14. 2013 11:04 AM

MWS

David Marr on the Government is permitting discrimination (but only when practised by religious groups):

I hesitate to say this but the Prime Minister is living in sin. I don't give a damn. Nor do most Australians. But that sort of thing bothers religious leaders. So much that Labor's Human Rights and Anti-Discrimination Bill will renew their authority to bar anyone in Julia Gillard's shoes from any job in any of their schools, hospitals and charities, even those they run with public money.

Labor is insisting on one tiny concession: the faiths will have to accept same sex couples in retirement villages and nursing homes that have Commonwealth funding. But those same homes and villages will still be able to refuse to employ gays and lesbians to look after them.


www.smh.com.au/.../...rotected-20130113-2cnf0.html

Of course, now government functions have been contracted out to the private sector (especially religious groups), the government is allowing sector-wide discrimination.  How is a gay person expected to find work in the caring professions when most of their potential employers are allowed to refuse them employment?

MWS

January 14. 2013 11:12 AM

LadyInRed

This opinion piece by Sheehan - I am not sure what he is trying to say, or if I can believe someone in his position could write something like this. Or perhaps I want to think he is better than this.

Is he saying that Jones comments are OK because of the context? Just in the same way as he is saying that the PM's misogyny speech was taken out of context? If you heard the context then you wouldn't think her speech so great? Is he comparing the comments of a supposedly respected commentator like Jones (not that I respect him)to those of the riotors?. He seems to be saying that it should be OK for a person with influence like Jones to use racist hate speech to condemn racial violence as long as we look at the context? Jones was offended so it should be OK for him to use inflamatory language that helps to further inflame and incence people, because somehow his comments are on the side of the good?

What sort of an argument is that? Apparently, if its OK for people to protest with placards that offend, then it should be OK for Jones a person of considerable position in society to do the same? Can he really be arguing that?

So Sheehan obviously doesn't think Jones should learn to control his language, he doesn't believe that Jones can get his point accross without, resorting to name calling and stiring the pot, pouring petrol on the flames. Its fairly simple really, we expect people of influence to show better judgement. But of course Jones has made millions out of inciting dissatisfaction and hatred. Sheehan seems to have left that bit out of his argument. Lazy journlaism that uses context as an argument, thank goodness judges don't do that.

www.theage.com.au/.../...xious-20130113-2cnf1.html

LadyInRed

January 14. 2013 11:14 AM

DMW

From the Newspapers ...
   What the front pages are saying

via Front Pages Today - http://goo.gl/enTjx

The Can we to top the weekend? edition

The Australian - http://goo.gl/3bnTO
Mining Tax Take Stuck at Zero
Disaster Advice: Help Yourself
Barnett stretches pre-poll margin
Master and Apprentice inspire local charge

The Sydney Morning Herald - http://goo.gl/1kOHj
‘It looked like an atom bomb’
Australia reloads as gun amnesties fail to cut arms

The Daily Telegraph - http://goo.gl/JXc7d
WHO'D HURT MY LIAM Exclusive: Mum's anguish over gatecrash attack
Making a splash in our fountain of youth

The Age - http://goo.gl/j6tKW
Grim towers to go? - Plan to turn estates into property gold

The Herald Sun - http://goo.gl/0wNCf
AUSSIE ASSAULT -Anyone for a spot of Tennis? Yep it's on Ed
NO ESCAPE

The Courier Mail - http://goo.gl/7NTLf
Push to extend trading hours so you can ... SHOP TILL YOU DROP
Little Lleyton serves it up – just like the old man Cute Pic of the youngun'

The Adelaide Advetiser - http://goo.gl/ApkdY
SEA RESCUE Shacks face relocation as water levels rise - http://goo.gl/k8GCM
Twice as many TAFE offers

The Hobart Mercury - http://goo.gl/J8x10
FIREFIGHTER DIES
Cathy’s 42km birthday treat

The NT Times - http://goo.gl/7f7VB
Soldier bashed on base and left for dead - Noe Defence wants to kick him ot
Conman's Fake Botox Injections for Strippers

DMW

January 14. 2013 11:43 AM

MWS

The Australian keeps getting it wrong:

It’s clear that Ridley’s approach to this issue is profoundly unscientific.  He ignores twenty years of warming and all the other evidence that has accumulated during that period.  The only evidence that counts for Ridley is that which supports his belief that warming will be trivial.

scienceblogs.com/.../

MWS

January 14. 2013 12:07 PM

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)


And some more reading to add to this morning's plethora (do we then have plethorae?) ... just to make sure we never ever get bored. Smile

Liberals Part 1: Climate denial and deregulation James Wright
To begin with, it is worth noting that the Liberals have given us every reason to distrust them on climate change.

According to a 2010 survey, only 38% of Coalition politicians accept that humans are warming the planet (compared to 98% of Greens, in line with the scientific consensus, and 89% of Labor politicians). Liberal and National politicians regularly spout denialist talking points, up to and including their leader Tony Abbott. Most notoriously, Abbott reportedly said in 2009 that the science of climate change is “complete crap” but “the politics of this are tough for us”.
jameswight.wordpress.com/.../

Liberals Part 2: Their “Direct Action” is neither James Wright
The first question to ask about the Liberal Party’s climate policy is “what is it?” This question is a lot more difficult to answer than you might think. One of the reasons why I have not focused on the Liberals is because although they are aggressive on process, their policies are vague if not contradictory. If they weren’t favored by nearly half of Australian voters, I would say the Liberals are the parliamentary clowns.

Nevertheless, I will examine the few details they have provided.
jameswight.wordpress.com/.../

Heatwave exacerbated by climate change: Climate Commission  Simon Lauder

When Prime Minister Julia Gillard linked the heatwave with climate change this week, the acting Opposition Leader Warren Truss said that was utterly simplistic.

But climate change experts have no doubt that climate change is a factor in the current conditions.

The scientific advisor to the Climate Commission, Professor David Karoly, has written the report for the Climate Commission to answer questions about the link between heatwaves and climate change.
www.abc.net.au/.../4461960

Clouds of Rhetoric: Climate Change and the State of Australian Journalism  Ben Eltham
Less secrecy has surrounded some of the Australian’s other public campaigns. Perhaps its most notorious is against the science of climate change, which, in a patina of plausible deniability, the newspaper claims to believe in, but against which it continues to run biased and factually inaccurate material. So much has been written about the Australian’santi-climate science campaign that little needs to be further recorded here – the science writer Tim Lambert has now written 66 separate posts on his blog Deltoid, chronicling the newspaper’s elisions, obfuscations and lies with forensic detail
coffsoutlook.com/.../

FEIJOA Awards, 2012  Mr Denmore
… it gives me great pleasure to announce the second annual F.E.I.J.O.A  awards (The Failed Estate International Journalism Awards), sponsored by ________ (insert non-compromising and appropriate commercial enterprise here).

It's really not that hard to stand out as a decent journalist these days. You refrain from buying into the Narrative Du Jour (promoted intensely by the more highly paid spin doctors of the warring ideological clans) and you give the public valuable insights that might help them understand issues that could affect them and steer them away from the self-serving  noise.
thefailedestate.blogspot.com.au/.../...s-2012.html.

[Comment: Lovely to see Mr Denmore give Independent Australia a guernsey for their investigation into #Ashbygate.]

What we cover when we cover politics  Andrew Elder
It is often said that covering politics is like an iceberg, where elected representatives are the above-surface visible portion while the far larger part (staffers, lobbyists, permanent public servants) are below the surface and out of sight. This may be so, but isn't that what journalists are for:

to uncover what is hidden and to make sense of it?
Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed: everything else is public relations.

- George Orwell

Press gallery journalists should be more often guided by their colleagues who cover those areas that federal politics regulates - between them, they would make for better coverage of how we are governed than we receive today.
andrewelder.blogspot.com.au/.../...r-politics.html

Image is everything for leaders  Stephanie Peatling
Ogden disputes the idea that style wins out over substance, that politics has become nothing more than the 'Oprahfication' of candidates. 'It's worse when candidates don't have any substance,' he says. 'If there's no substance, there's no ideas. It's not a popularity contest, it's about having people respect you for who you are.'

Successful politicians need both, he has told the more than 1000 MPs, union officials and campaign operatives he has trained through his Campaign Action organisation.

'People say they want policy and policy is undeniably very important but it's also about the politics of authenticity. When you ask people what they want the number one thing they say is authenticity,' Ogden says.

'You can have the best policy in the world but if people don't trust you they won't listen. If people know your story they are connected to you as a person. It's only because they connect to you that they listen.'
www.smh.com.au/.../...-leaders-20130111-2clc6.html

What the media will be telling us in 2013  Miglo
My apologies if this comes across as an anti-Tony Abbott post, for it is actually aimed at being an anti-mainstream media rant. Tony Abbott is a media darling and they are blinkered in their portrayal of him. It would not be so funny if Tony Abbott was a politician worth promoting. This is an election year so how about some balance?
theaimn.com/.../

Australia: Tony Abbott won’t gain much with his carbon tax stance  Craig Hill
The carbon tax has failed to incite a tsunami of complaints from the public, with new data from the consumer watchdog indicating Labor’s policy may have fallen off the public radar.

In a sign that Tony Abbott will be hard-pressed to generate the same political bounce from his anti-carbon tax campaign in the run-up to this year’s federal election, figures released to The Weekend Australian show the tide of carbon price complaints has dropped off sharply in the past three months.
craighill.net/.../

Rising iron ore prices could put budget surplus back on track Peter Martin
An unexpected surge in the global iron ore price has put the budget surplus back within reach.

The iron ore price had climbed from a September low of $US86 a tonne to $US135 a tonne when the Treasurer, Wayne Swan, abandoned his commitment to a budget surplus late last month. It has since risen to $US158 a tonne.

Forecasters from Deutsche Bank are expecting the price to hit $US170 a tonne within weeks.

If sustained, the near doubling of the iron ore price would boost company tax revenues and lead to a surge in mining tax payments, putting government revenue back to near what was forecast in the budget.
www.smh.com.au/.../...on-track-20130113-2cnno.html

Cracking through the jobs market plateau  Stephen Koukoulas
The consistently low unemployment rate is something that should be celebrated. After all, most of the objectives of economic policy have job creation and low unemployment as an end objective.

One question that does not get a lot of attention is whether Australia can sustain an unemployment rate below 5 per cent or less and whether we should be content to see unemployment at 5-point-something. A 4-point-something unemployment rate has only been seriously tested once in the last four decades and when it got there in a sustained fashion in 2006, it unfortunately failed. Inflation and interest rates rose suggesting that some structural issues were inhibiting the unemployment rate from staying well below 5 per cent.
www.businessspectator.com.au/.../Unemployment-Australia-economy-labour-force-data-pd20130114-3WQXS

Let the facts speak for themselves in 2013  Penny Wong
We have a strong public finances in Australia and continuing our fiscal consolidation will keep our economy strong.

Running a tight ship also means the RBA has the flexibility to cut interest rates if it deems appropriate which, for example, assists the transition from mining to non-mining sectors of the economy, not to mention families with mortgages and small business owners with loans.

A family with a $300,000 mortgage is today paying around $5,000 a year (or around $100 a week) less in repayments than they were in 2007.

So it's time for those on the other side to stop talking our economy down and making the extraordinary claim that we're on the same fiscal path as Greece or Ireland.

It's simply irresponsible and it's incorrect.
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4463186.html

Prime Minister Julia Gillard's message to Australia Julia Gillard
We'll never see the global economy as it was before greed and poor regulation created the global financial crisis.

As a result, we won't see our nation relive days of zero savings and easy money.

As Asia rises, we won't go back to the days of an unchallenged and all-powerful America with Europe as a zone of sophistication and economic strength.

We won't go back to the days before the gender revolution, when women's role was confined within the boundaries set by men.

We'll never again see a world without global warming.
Our time is this time, in a modern world rapidly changing, where our future is never assured.

But, however, challenging the times or rapid the pace of change, I'm a fierce optimist by nature who always believes in the best of Australia.
www.heraldsun.com.au/.../story-fncynkc6-1226552607981

A-G Roxon set to recast idea of freedom of speech  Happy Antipodean
I guess this is what happens when you complain too much. Rupert Murdoch's flagship broadsheet, the Australian, has long been at loggerheads with the government over concerns that changes to media laws stemming from the Finkelstein enquiry, which played out publicly last year, would impinge on media freedom. The newspaper recaps those gripes at the end of this story on its website today. But it's what comes earlier in the piece that should worry all Australians, not just media moguls and their minions.
happyantipodean.blogspot.com.au/.../...reedom.html

Documentary Special: I sit in middle  David Mark
SIMON SANTOW: This has been an historic period in federal politics. Hello, I'm Simon Santow and this is a Radio Current Affairs Documentary.

A hung parliament at the last election was eventually resolved when two independents, Rob Oakeshott and Tony Windsor decided to back Julia Gillard's Labor Government.

Today we hear from them as they reflect on their time in the political spotlight.

David Mark prepared this special look at the men in the middle.
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2012/s3665863.htm



Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)

January 14. 2013 01:23 PM

LadyInRed

Thanks for the links Jan. Especially the Happy Antipodean link as it does a better job than Sheehan did of explaining one side the anti-descrimination laws up for consideration. I wonder are there any articles that support the changes?

LadyInRed

January 14. 2013 03:57 PM

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)



Hi LiR,

Not much around in favour of the complete HR/Anti-Discrim law update, but the Law Council of Australia has made a formal statement at:

www.lawcouncil.asn.au/.../discrimination.cfm

This next from 2012 seems to contradict Marr’s argument a tad:
www.abc.net.au/.../4383700

Cheers

Janet (Jan @j4gypsy)

January 14. 2013 04:28 PM

MWS

Mungo McCallum on voting "reform":

So now we know what it was really all about. Having floated the idea of voluntary voting but having it dismissed as far too radical, the Liberals are getting down to the nitty gritty.

Well, if voluntary voting is off the table, what about optional preferential voting? Surely that's a fair and reasonable compromise?

This, of course, is precisely the tactic of the militant trade unions the Libs affect to despise: start with an ambit claim, an agenda far too extravagant to be taken seriously. And then, once negotiations are under way, get down to what you really want.

It may have appeared outrageous if you had sprung it out of the blue, but in the context of the previous wild demands, it becomes something like the middle ground.


http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4463770.html

MWS

January 14. 2013 04:50 PM

LadyInRed

Jan thanks so much for the links. I found this to be very helpful as it brings together various opinions about the legislation. Its worth a read. As this is a draft bill you would expect people to come forth with opinions and potential changes, be they watering down or strengthening.

www.sbs.com.au/.../Free-speech-concern-over-anti-discrimination-law

LadyInRed

January 14. 2013 08:00 PM

KHTAGH

Federal inquiry possible into Slipper case.

Fingers crossed

www.sbs.com.au/.../Federal-inquiry-possible-into-Slipper-case

KHTAGH

January 14. 2013 08:18 PM

Ad astra

Folks
Over 700 comments - that's a record.

Thanks  for them and your links.

Web Monkey and I have been working all day on TPS Mail.  It's big job, but we are getting there.

Ad astra

January 14. 2013 10:15 PM

Bacchus

Over 700 comments - that's a record

And increasingly difficult to read on mobile devices Ad Wink

Bacchus

January 14. 2013 10:22 PM

DMW

Is this dirty pool or a totally reasonable and fair question?

Good policy-making always involves not only the ethical and moral choices ... but also a sober consideration of the alternative uses of the funds. If you were to meet an asylum seeker face to face and ask yourself the question “What would be the best way for the Australian community to spend $1.75 million on this person?” would you come up with the answer, “Incarcerate him/her on Nauru for five years”?

Paul Barratt at his blog Australian Observer asks this and some other questions, adds a few pertinent observations that could make even the most ardent supporters of the governments current policies and actions question if it is The Right Thing To Do as the Prime Minister is often prone to say when introducing a new policy or action.

aussieobserver.blogspot.com.au/.../...s-nauru.html

DMW

January 15. 2013 01:06 AM

Psyclaw

DMW

"a few pertinent observations that could make even the most ardent supporters of the governments current policies and actions question if it is The Right Thing To Do as the Prime Minister is often prone to say when introducing a new policy or action."

As a supporter of the government I find it quite easy to support the vast majority of their policies ardently, and yet have great reservations about the Asylum Seeker policy, prior to and unassisted by comments such as Mr Barratt's, sensible as they are.  Ardent supporters do not by definition give up their ability to discern.

Like Bruce Haig lamented on RN earlier yesterday morning, the AS problem arose when immigration bipartisanship ceased and the issues became political, and will only be solved when it becomes bipartisan again, if ever.

A question of interest to me is how, when and why the bipartsanship ended. Understanding that may be the key to the remedy. I think the events of 2001 are notable, and whilst that may not be the full story it certainly showed, courtesy of Howard and Reith, how easy it is to stir up a very large proportion of the electorate  when it comes to matters immigration.

This government has become embroiled in the politicalisation of the matter, but recent history shows the partisan approach will continue while ever Abbott is LOTO. It takes two to tango to a solution and he rejects every invitation to even come into the dance hall.

Psyclaw

January 15. 2013 06:15 AM

Truth Seeker

Morning Swordsters,

Ad, well done on you 700+ record.
I tried to post this last night, but we had a blackout so we lost the internet.

Janet, thanks for the great links.

As speculation grows about what we can expect this election year from our illustrious media, I thought it appropriate to re-post my poem "The Media", for any who missed it.

http://truthseekersmusings.wordpress.com/

Cheers   Smile   Smile

Truth Seeker

January 15. 2013 08:36 AM

pappinbarra fox

OK, here is the obvious comment - polls this far out form an election cannot be used to predict the reult. Apparently polls any further out than 7 days from an election are useless. Except that they show the mood of the electorate at this point in time. And over a number of polls we can see trends. I can accept incremental trend lines but an 8 point turnaround just beggars belief. But as the good folk at News very Limited will tell you the (yes Piers this was you) the only poll that stands up to scrutiny is the News Poll. So what is going on in the electorate and should swordsters (including ToM - though I have NEVER read any of his contributions!!) rejoice?

pappinbarra fox

January 15. 2013 08:50 AM

2353

pappinbarra fox - I agree, the Poll is too big a movement and too far out to really tell us anything.  But is will be funny watching various conservative commentators justify Newspoll while belittling the results.  The reality is that the two party preferred moved 1% - it could be right!

Expect a big headline next time around "Gillard support plummets"?

2353

January 15. 2013 09:13 AM

42 long

  Newspoll and comments. the trend has been there and the one poll back last year that showed a drop for labor is considered "rogue".
  IF AN ELECTION WAS HELD TODAY theLNP would get in and win some seats.
   Well you can't hold an election today so the statement while essentially true is 100% hypothetical.
Also when an election is called time passes and things change.
  At 51/49 this is close enough to level pegging. A hung parl't could result on those figures. Again no body votes for a hung parliament If it happens it happens .That is how the numbers fall.
    From now on it is up to a balance of risk and advantage.
  Policies ans successes. The breaking of the balanced budget aim caused no loss. A victory for common sense.
   I reckon Labor holds the better hand.
   More countries are going for a carbon mitigation situation.
    The NBN is looking good.
    Abbot is not credible or popular and not improving.
    The 38% of Coalition only believing in climate change being due in any way to human involvement is going to be hard to justify.
   Climate change is not a matter of belief ( like god) it's based on science which is based on facts, peer reviewed and constantly being revised but the trend and effect although not quantified  fully is accepted by an increasing number of "informed " people. More people are realising something has to be done.
   The more information that comes out on just about anything concerning the political situation in australia the more Abbott has to fear.
It's close to inconceivable that Turnbull will not make a run soon.
   Will the MSM adulation of St Tony  cease?  ( or do they get more frantic and desperate) Surely they have expended enough of their limited credibility on this lost cause.

42 long

January 15. 2013 09:57 AM

42 long

  The Boat immigrants situation is horrible. Rudd and Co rubbed the LNP noses in the catshit substantially and they are still smarting. They did not have clean hands anyhow.
Abbott still seeks to demonise these people,suggests solutions that won't work and are generally illegal and will only make us look bad in the eyes of the rest of the world.
   Politicising this matter makes a bad outcome certain. Abbotts advisers must see this as a winner so who cares about the cost? ( in decency).
   Julia is wedged on this one. It is not normal ALP behaviour and plenty of their members (Parliamentary) are really uncomfortable with it, as are many of the party supporters.

42 long

January 15. 2013 10:20 AM

DMW

From the Newspapers ...
   What the front pages are saying

via Front Pages Today - http://goo.gl/enTjx

Today is Tuesday,
is it soup day? http://goo.gl/TpXj0
or is it ironing day? http://goo.gl/4MoLP
You choose

The Australian - http://goo.gl/3bnTO
Savings will fund pledges: Swan
Scorched earth: 33 homes lost in perfect firestormScorched earth: 33 homes lost in perfect firestorm
Sea rise 'not linked to warming'
School funding to hit indigenous boarders

The Sydney Morning Herald - http://goo.gl/1kOHj
‘Shocking’ bushfire destroys 33 homes
O’farrell accused of abandoning first home buyers

The Daily Telegraph - http://goo.gl/JXc7d
FIRE HERO'S SACRIFICE RFC captain loses home saving others
Party gang suspected of king-hit
First-home purchases in free fall

The Age - http://goo.gl/j6tKW
Early exit for Hewitt
Baillieu hides project costs

The Herald Sun - http://goo.gl/0wNCf
NOW FOR THE OSCARS
KIDS MUST PAY - Schools set to charge parents for internet

The Courier Mail - http://goo.gl/7NTLf
Hugh to Oscar: bring it on, baby
HELP ME LEAD - Premier calls for ideas to guide state's future

The Adelaide Advetiser - http://goo.gl/ApkdY
Relieved Stosur muscles through
HIT HOLIDAY HOONS - Calls for periods of double demerit points

The Hobart Mercury - http://goo.gl/J8x10
10 WAYS TO HELP OUR FIRE MATES

The NT Times - http://goo.gl/7f7VB
CHARGES OVER DEADLY BLAST

DMW

January 15. 2013 10:51 AM

TalkTurkey

WOO-HOO Folks,

I just got me the best toy I have ever had
since the dead-eye space-age pop-gun I had at age six.

A FUJIFILM W3 FINEPIX REAL 3D DIGITAL STEREO CAMERA!

I have wanted such a thing for many many years.
I never hoped it would be this good though.

Two decades ago I bought an old (1969) SPUTNIK 120 camera, and I took quite a lot of photos with that. But you got 6 stereo pairs of a roll of 120 film, most of them spoils for various reasons . . . but some few are gems. (There's a few on my neglected website.)

Oh the fascination of genuine magical stereography! This camera is the GO!

It can take short movie takes with audio too. MAGIC!

YOU WANT ONE! $200 max on Ebay, $290 new through Fujifilm via Harvey Norman's I think. I got mine $150 never used off Ebay.


I'm sorry not to have posted for a few days, I've had other stuff to do and I'm not good at multitasking.

I'll be upcountry for a couple of days, don't know if 4G will work from where I'll be.

Are we looking good or are we?

TalkTurkey

January 15. 2013 11:15 AM

MWS

I'd like to second Bacchus' comment re the difficulty of scrolling through 700+ comments.  I haven't found any way to do a "page down" on my Samsung tablet,and have to scroll down to the bottom.  Is it possible to split the comments into pages, or even show the newest comments first?

(I usually use my laptop, which has no problem with the current layout.)

One issue that hasn't been addressed re politicisation of asylum seekers, is the out-and-out lies the Howard Government propagated.  Many ill-informed voters though that asylum seekers were the majority of immigrants, instead of being less than 5% of total migration.  Howard cunningly blamed asylum seekers for the problems caused by his high immigration policy, when the primary problem was the "cash-for-visas" rort, where so-called "colleges" took high fees in exchange for qualifications in hair-dressing and cooking, which were then converted into permanent visas.  of course none of the "graduates" managed to find work in their field, which kept the profession as an area of unmet need.

A classical case of the "look over there" tactics used by the Howard Government.

MWS

January 15. 2013 11:58 AM

Psyclaw

The polls are neither right nor wrong. They are what they are. Whilst they probably can't predict the election 10 months out, they do provide over time, information about the political momentums. And for the last six months the momentum has been with the government.

For clarification of this and of poll results generally and a reality check of what they are saying, see Kevin Bonham's site or check out his comments on PB over the past 24 hours.

He and other psephologists are suggesting that the state of play now is around the same proportions as at the 2010 election, and that since about July 1, the coalition 2PP support has dropped some 4 or 5 percent.

I expect they’ll get worse for the Abbotteers as the year progresses.

Firstly there is a campaign to be had, and Abbott will have to present and explain many currently non-existing policies under sustained questioning. He has not "practised" this skill for 2 years and has in fact avoided all "in depth" interviews except 20 second grabs.

The campaign, (vis a vis Abbott’s tendency to foot in mouth, his lack of policy, his lack of policy nouse, his inability/unwillingness to perform under sustained questioning, his reliance on mantras, his self characterisation as ‘the boy who cried wolf ‘, and the sad and sorry nature of his shadow bench) is the one thing the premature speculators have ignored over the past 18 months.

Secondly, there are a couple of demographies which would’ve contained their fair share of Coalition voters who would now be unassailably and permanently lining up with the PM .

I refer to the disability and child abuse sectors.

Having spent my career in these areas, I am of the view that many would underestimate the size and reach of those two groups.

The child in focus has parents, who have relatives, friends, workmates, neighbours, supporters, parents and community from the child’s school, helpers etc in great numbers.

Each child’s interest could literally reflect many many votes. And a few hundred votes in numerous electorates would be incredibly valuable turnovers to Labor.

Cream for the emerging cake.

Psyclaw

January 15. 2013 12:12 PM

DMW

Psyclaw @ 1:06 AM,
you raise many interesting points.

Ardent supporters do not by definition give up their ability to discern.

There are some ardent supporters who appear not to have an ability to discern when it comes the actions and/or policies of their tribe. There are red team supporters, blue team supporters and green team supporters that are afflicted by, for want of a better term, blind faith in the 'rightness' of what their team does and says.

There are others who are able to discern, have reservations about one policy or another but are afraid to voice that concern for fear of upsetting the 'group norm' and suffer from being called a 'rat' or some other less than complimentary name.

One or two people may read Mr Barratt's post and rethink, maybe even question if the current Asylum Seeker policies are the right thing to do.

There may be others who say I couldn't give a flying fig if it costs $1m a day, let em rot in hell if they think the can sneak in the backdoor by coming here in leaky boats ...

On 'bipartisanship', I suggest that we do have a basic bipartisanship on Asylum Seeker policy but not, thank the dieties, tri-partisanship. The differences between the major parties is around the edges and about some of the methods but both agree on the main thrust.

A question of interest to me is how, when and why the bipartsanship ended.

Many would suggest that the 'end' came with the meteoric rise of Pauline Hansen, however, the genesis was earlier than that. If I were to start looking for the genesis on this I would start my search in the period between 4 April 1990 and 20 December 1991 and also look at some reactions around another key date 10 December 1992.

This government has become embroiled in the politicalisation of the matter ...

We could argue the toss on this from here until the day that Noah will need his next Ark but I suggest that 'This government allowed itself to be embroiled in the politicalisation of the matter ...'

DMW

January 15. 2013 12:32 PM

LadyInRed

DMW Psyclaw

While I agree with much that you say regarding the AS problem and bipartisanship. We cannot deny the reality that the electorate also has to carry much of the blame for the current situation. Western Sydney in particular for whatever reasons, infrastructure, fear whipped up by radio hosts, or any number of other dissatisfactions, the AS people were a good target to lump all this dissatisfaction upon. So while I agree that bipartisanship will solve some of the problem, I have a feeling that while the communities have this fear and suspicion and dislike for AS people they will be applying pressure on their local members, threatening them with expulsion. What we also need beside bipartisanship is education and programs that bring comunities together. I see very little of this happening, well very little of it being reported. It seems that many Australians feel happier when they think less Muslims are given entry into this country and AS people are just more prominent because they are reported upon. While this is the sentiment and nothing is done to try to re-educate or change the situation then it will be used as a political tool. I guess what I am saying is it is too simple to say bipartisanship is the answer, in the long term you have to bring the communities along with you, or it will continue to be used by someone who wants to get elected, if it isn't a LIB or an ALP it will be a Katter or an independent.

I'd like to think Australians are better than this - but clearly this is not the case in certain pockets of society that have considerable political clout.

LadyInRed

January 15. 2013 12:51 PM

pappinbarra fox

I give in ... what did happen between:

4 April 1990 and 20 December 1991

??

pappinbarra fox

January 15. 2013 12:56 PM

42 long

  You can't just let abbott off the hook. He is loose with the truth and works on the fear and racist (even religeous) tactics. calls them "illegals" The shockjocks stir up hate. I'm surprised it passes the vilification laws.
   Morriscum stirs the bad pot, and comes across as a nasty amd mean person. Even when labor do their bidding it is still alleged they are not holding their mouth right (or something)
   "Howard stopped the boats" If we go back to everything Howard did we wiil inherit heaven. Sure . well things are not exactly the same as they were then even if Tony is telling it like it was. (which he isn't) some of the things Howard did made me ashamed to be an Australian. It may come to pass that he will be fronted with George "W" and Blair  as war criminals re Iraq. I'm not proposing it but it's a possibility, for sure.

42 long

January 15. 2013 01:05 PM

KHTAGH

  I too tend to agree that polls this far out are generally only indicative, although when you look at the methodology of how & who the poll is selected from. Also Limited News & their want to always paint the PM & her team in the worst possible light this could be a significant result.

  This result would be worrying the tripe out of the LNP, NO! younger generation influence(mobile phone users) or even a reasonably large numbers of middle aged people too now using mobiles in this poll & they are the ones that actually get Climate change because it is their future.

  I personally consider Morgan poll way more reliable because it is over a wider section of the electorate, also face to face, & not done by a news outlet with a barrow to push.

  Their pre Christmas poll being 52%-48% to labor. Extrapolate that out to now with the same swing% & we are looking at more like 56% or even greater in labors favor.

  I would consider what we have seen over the last 6 months is a trend which is beyond the capacity of news poll to down talk anymore with weasel words like not statically significant, within the margin of error and the good old favorite vicious killer the rough poll.

  Even though the OM has tried to bury the Ashbygate affair I think this has a long way to go & may very well prove to be the last nail in the coffin of the mad monk.

  Even some right wing voters don't like politicians going after someone like the LNP have with Slipper, this will cause an even greater swing yet to come.

   As long as someone can super glue bloody Rudd's lips together.
   That is a man with relevance deprivation syndrome personified.

KHTAGH

January 15. 2013 01:33 PM

Ad astra

Bacchus, MWS
There are 'end-of-page' shortcuts.  Try Googling them for your own device.

I'm using Mac's at present.  In Safari 'Command+down arrow' takes me immediately to the end of the comments.  There is probably a similar sequence for other browsers.

On the iPad I use an 'End of Page' app that can be downloaded free from the Apple App Store.  The end-of-page facility is stored as a bookmark.  When one touches it, the cursor goes immediately to the end of the page.  It saves a lot of time.

Apologies for the long thread, but I'm so busy working on TPS Mail that I haven't had time to start another thread.

I hope it will be finished later this week so we can launch a new thread and beta test it.

Ad astra

January 15. 2013 01:37 PM

Psyclaw

AA

Thanks for the Application suggestion. It'll be very helpful on my i-pad.

Psyclaw

January 15. 2013 01:45 PM

DMW

pappinbarra fox @ 12:51 PM
good question, what did happen between those dates?

I may be a little bit out however, the 'unravelling' of the consensus began around this time. From 20 December 1991 on, a greater demarcation between the government and the opposition on many issues was brought to the front.

It would take a fair bit of dipping into the archives to pinpoint any single events that helped cause the drift away from the alleged* bipartisanship on asylum seekers at the time.

*I use the word alleged as even back into the years of the Fraser government there were some quite bitter divides amongst people from both sides of the aisle but the force of personality of the leaders was important in keeping a lid on loud dissent.

DMW

January 15. 2013 01:59 PM

Psyclaw

LIR @232

Your alluding to the electorate is spot on. This is why the solid bipartisanship  about immigration prevailed for so many years.

There are many examples (including Mr Haig yesterday) of thoughtful commentators and historians and past PMs and past Ministers of Immigration who have attested to the fact that both sides of politics were aware and concerned about electorate's (as a whole) ablity to rationally consider the race issue. Hence the bipartisanship and "in-house" decisions about immigration ie both sides purposefully had identical policies.

What you describe is in fact the 21st century occurrence of what they were concerned about.

Democratic "purists" of course scream that the pollies have no right to hide/with-hold such issues from the people, but the choice is to honour the "pure" view, but at the huge cost which allows the likes of Hadley, Smith and Jones (amongst many others) to play on the anxieties of some and the paranoia of others. This of course takes the matter out of the public arena, and beyond the reach of those who would exploit it.

IMHO in the Jack Nicholson final scene in A Few Good Men, when he screamed at Cruise and Demi Moore's characters "you (joe public) can't handle the truth", the script writer got it pretty right as far as [i]some[/i] areas of human behaviour are concerned. (Nicholson was of course referring to the unorthodox {illegal?] ways the military encouraged a group of soldiers to bond so as to be united and as one in battle).

Psyclaw

January 15. 2013 02:52 PM

Patriciawa


www.3aw.com.au/.../20121219-2bml2.html

Slow and Steady Wins the Race!  

Tony Abbott is running for office,
The highest in all the South Land.
As the favorite of the bosses
He had his victory speech all planned.
But his rival is proving a tough nut,
Unexpectedly for a female,
Metaphorically kicking his butt,
And his strength is beginning to fail.
“It’s a marathon race, not a sprint,”
She might’ve said.  “This’ll be a long haul.”
Would he’ve listened  and taken the hint
That she’d tail him till he hit the wall?
Judged by his manner and giveaway gait,
He knows now who’s setting the pace.
He is about to disintegrate
As Julia Gillard takes the lead in this race.


Patriciawa

January 15. 2013 03:20 PM

Patriciawa

Sorry, I jumped the gun there!  That's last month's Morgan!  

Premature publication as we all anticipate today's Morgan,  which in the light of yesterday's Newspoll may well show Julia Gillard in the lead.

Finger's crossed!      

Patriciawa

January 15. 2013 03:38 PM

Gravel

Patriciawa
You are back, most definitely, that is how I see things happening, let's hope it keeps going. Smile

Got my Mum staying till the long weekend.  Watching tennis at the moment.  Trying not  to be anti social but had to catch up here.

Knee High
Glad your mate is okay, devastated the he has lost his home, hopefully he was insured, although it would still be heartbreaking for him.

Ad Astra
Whatever you do, please don't put last posts first.  I know it would help people on mobiles, but it is too hard to follow themes and topics if you reverse the posting order.  Sorry MWS, I don't mean to be rude, but I like to read every post, and if I had to do it the other way I don't think I would bother.

Gravel

January 15. 2013 03:39 PM

Jason

2353,
    Is it possible to get from the gold coast to Nambour by train? I'm heading to Byron Bay on Thursday we should be there Friday evening to take a truck and dog with my mate! And thought if I can get to Nambour I'll drop in and see me dad even though I won't have a lot of time as I fly back to Adelaide on the Sunday?
Thanks

Jason

January 15. 2013 03:44 PM

Bacchus

Whatever you do, please don't put last posts first

I agree Gravel!

I'll have to find something for end-of-page on Android though - scrolling 700+ comments takes much too long (& I'll probably end up with "scrollers' RSI" Laughing

Bacchus

January 15. 2013 04:03 PM

Bacchus

Jason,

There's a huge gap (about 80km) between Byron & Varsity Lakes (that's as far as the train goes - just north of Burleigh). If you have a way of traversing that gap, you could do it...

Looking at the timetables, If you caught the train at Varsity Lakes @ 7:04am, arrive Roma St @ 8:21am, Nambour train departs 8:30am, arrives Nambour @ 10:22am.

Let me know if you need any more info...

Bacchus

January 15. 2013 04:18 PM

Patriciawa

Bacchus and Gravel, re chronological order - I tend to agree, but I do manage the other way round, if absolutely necessary.   But isn't it possible to offer both?   I have seen that as an option.

P.S. Yes, I am sort of back, but not completely!  I missed that grammatical error - Fingers Crossed! - superfluous apostrophe up there!  I'm very tolerant of other people's grammar.   I think it's great just to see their thoughts in writing.  It's different in my own case after decades of teaching and corrections, followed  by many more years of proof reading and sub-editing.

P.P.S.  Thanks for your encouragement, Gravel!

Patriciawa

January 15. 2013 06:03 PM

xiaoecho

Psyclaw said

"Firstly there is a campaign to be had, and Abbott will have to present and explain many currently non-existing policies under sustained questioning. He has not "practised" this skill for 2 years and has in fact avoided all "in depth" interviews except 20 second grabs."

I do not see media scrutiny of LNP policies as a given. They are likely to do what they always do and release them so close to the election there will be minimum time for the public to digests them.
When, since the current government was formed (and before) has the LNP ever faced sustained and detailed questioning about anything? (OK, the Sales interview)Joe told the press to 'Go to hell' when he was subject to mild questioning after the Rares judgement and the press pack questioning him, like naughty children,immediatly shut up. The 70% Murdoch media will continue to be the LNP mouthpiece and as for the others, I can't see any reason why things would change. The non reporting of the Rares judgement was a game changer. No-ne, interested or not, can now be in any doubt about the extent of the media's bias or their dereliction of duty to the public.  

xiaoecho

January 15. 2013 06:08 PM

LadyInRed

Yes Psyclaw I do understand, bipartisanship is the way to get this bedded down, but its unlikely to happen. As we  all know at the moment the LNP are no longer liberals but acting more like Conservatives, which has given the right wing, intollerants legitimacy, and a great big platform to bellow from. I don't know what the solution is anymore. I do know that people smuggling is an ugly, ugly, business and it only gets worse the more years they are in business. These are people who have absolutely no scruples, they will stop at nothing to keep their business going, it will be a very hard slog to stop it, and there is an endless supply of people willing to risk it. I think the problem is we are actually no longer just talking about AS - we are talking about economic refugees.

LadyInRed

January 15. 2013 06:22 PM

MWS

LiR, another serious issue with the asylum seekers coming by boat is that they are predominantly young males.  Australia selects refugees from camps by determining who is in greatest need of protection - often woman (without husbands) and children.  The people smugglers are skewing our refugee intake, with the result that women and children in refugee camps have little likelihood of being resettled. I wish this could be pointed out to a certain person who regularly describes our PM as "sexist and racist."

The current intake of asylum seekers means that fewer refugees in camps will be resettled in Australia (because Howard linked the two, and the current Government hasn't changed the rule).

Regardless, Australia cannot resettle all of the people in the world who have been mistreated or persecuted.  Neither can we act as the world's police officer.

MWS

January 15. 2013 06:27 PM

MWS

Ad, I've been searching for an Android app similar to End of Page.  No success yet...

MWS

January 15. 2013 06:57 PM

Bacchus

Likewise MWS Frown

Bacchus

January 15. 2013 07:13 PM

2353

Jason - yes, you can do Gold Coast to Nambour.  Lots of buses on the Coast run to the stations and if you get lucky you should only have to do a train change at Central or Roma Street in Brisbane City.  Go your hardest here -> http://translink.com.au and to do a long trip like that, it might be worth getting one of the new Translink Tourist GoCard Cards called "SeeQ" of something similar..  There are some buses that meet the train at Nambour that go around Nambour or to the Sunny Coast.  All SEQ services accept GoCards.

A small hint - a lot of the trains they use on the Gold Coast & Nambour line have free wi-fi as well.  Look for the signage inside the trains near the doors.

2353

January 15. 2013 08:10 PM

Psyclaw

Xiaoecho

(1) The "mood" of the MSM as at the election month awaits to be seen.

(2) Anyway it has been the tradition that the PM avoids and limits his/her exposure, not the LOTO who has everything to gain and nothing to lose. I think an approach by Abbott at that stage which avoids outright exposure to sustained questioning would constitute a serious foot injury caused by a bullet from his own "gun".

(3) There are a few respected MSM journos who have already shown an interest in questioning Abbott in depth, journos who will lead the MSM I/V frenzy in a campaign. Abbott will have to ignore them and look like a goose, or submit to I/V and prove he's a goose.

(4) I expect the electronic free to air media to play a dominant role in the campaign and doubt that bias in that quarter will be at the level of News Ltd bias

(5) As intimated in (2) above, elections are for governments to lose. If the current poll momentum continues and Abbott's travails increase (assuming that he remains LOTO) the onus on him to propose, explain and argue his policies will also become heavier. Hiding what he thinks are his lights under some bushel will be counterproductive to his cause.

Anyway, let's see how things unfold in the next few months. Then we'll all know what sort of scene has been set for the campaign.

(recaptcha "likelyKO" ..... of Abbott!  

Psyclaw

January 15. 2013 09:07 PM

DMW

LIR @ 6:08 PM
... bipartisanship is the way to get this bedded down, ...

Bipartisanship will not solve the dilemma in the current situation. In fact bipartisanship has helped created the problem we now have because, like it or lump it, we currently have basic agreement between the major parties on how the country handles asylum seekers who arrive by boat. There are some differences at the margins and of course the opposition will claim, just as they do with the economy, that they can always do it better because Labor are incompetent.

... we are actually no longer just talking about AS - we are talking about economic refugees.

All asylum seekers are 'economic refugees'. Those still in camps no matter where situated are 'economic refugees'. People flee their homes to seek refuge elsewhere for a myriad of reasons and in amongst it there is an 'economic factor'. That factor is often the imminent death of the current 'economic' provider, the parent, or, the future 'economic' provider, the children.

The use of 'economic refugee' is a term of derision is no more forgivable than the term 'dole bludger'. It is used to to belittle and dehumanise and those who should know better amongst our so called 'leaders' deserve to be treated with contempt for hoodwinking we the great unwashed by using a misleading description.

As for 'people smugglers' well what a Pandora's Box of Worms that term is. Again another misleading description that should be treated with contempt. As for 'breaking the business model' of 'people smugglers', if looked at in economic terms, successive governments have created a form of 'market failure' by not taking in sufficient numbers of refugees from camps overseas and 'entrepreneurs' have stepped in to fill the void.

Looking at the situation from an economic perspective alone the current policies make no sense as we are sending good money after bad and creating even greater costs in the 'out years' as we have to deal with the fallout of the many problems created by current actions.

I don't know what the solution is anymore.

There is no 'simple' solution. There rarely is for many of the 'big' problems.

Unfortunately human frailty prevents a possible path toward a solution. Neither of the current major party leaders are able to stand up and say 'We got this wrong, what we are doing is not working and we need to start again from scratch and deal with this challenge with humanity and compassion'

DMW

January 15. 2013 09:19 PM

DMW

MWS # 6:22 PM,
Regardless, Australia cannot resettle all of the people in the world who have been mistreated or persecuted.  Neither can we act as the world's police officer.

I am not aware of anyone who would be stupid enough to suggest that we take all of the world's potential refugees. Nor have I heard or seen anyone suggest anything like it.

The throwaway line ... we can't take in all of the world's mistreated or persecuted is another of those 'misleaders'.

All that is being asked, by me and other similar people, is that we do our fair share, and maybe, because we are a reasonably well off and even affluent nation, possibly we could give a little more. Maybe something similar to that '110%' we often claim for ourselves in other areas.

DMW

January 15. 2013 10:12 PM

Tom of Melbourne

Asylum seekers – why would anyone accept any policy or undertaking provide by this government. At every stage this government’s position has been characterised by hypocrisy, point scoring, u-turns, punishment of the innocent and mean spiritedness.

If ever evidence of political dishonesty was required, just look at the policies of this government on asylum seekers.

Tom of Melbourne

January 15. 2013 10:19 PM

Jason

Bacchus 2353
Thanks for your help! I rang jetstar only to find out it will cost $79.00 to change my flight, and I have.
I can now turn up at "Varsity Lakes sometime on saturday if our drive goes well, but changed my flight to Tuesday so I can spend a few days with the old boy.

Thanks it means a lot!

Jason

January 15. 2013 10:21 PM

Pikiranku

Sorry to be frivolous in the midst of all this serious discussion, but is anyone watching the tennis?  Bernard Tomic has a pair of shoes that Tony Abbott would sell his a**e for!

Pikiranku

January 15. 2013 10:29 PM

Jason

ToM,
   "Asylum seekers – why would anyone accept any policy or undertaking provide by this government."

Exactly! The opposition policy is what?ToM if you have nothing to add to any debate Fuck off!You have no need to prove your stupidity it's well known, so put up or shut up big boy

Jason

January 15. 2013 10:42 PM

Psyclaw

DMW

"Bipartisanship will not solve the dilemma in the current situation. In fact bipartisanship has helped created the problem we now have because, like it or lump it, we currently have basic agreement between the major parties on how the country handles asylum seekers who arrive by boat. "

It is quite inaccurate and a misuse of the word "bipartisanship" to describe the current situation as being that. Sure, in the so called race to the bottom there are elements of both parties' policies which have turned out out be similar, but this has occurred as a direct result of partisanship, not bipartisanship.

A generous appraisal of the Abbotteers' position in respect of  the Houston recommendations (which are now the foundation of the government's policy) shows up 6 at most of the 22 recommendations with which they agree. This is hardly evidence for the popular but ill-considered view that both parties are pursuing the same policy, and shows that view for what it is ...... claptrap. It puts the lie to your claim that there is basic agreement between the major parties on how asylum seekers (by boat) are handled.

Further, the Houston recommendation about Malaysia, probably the key government strategy, is rejected outright by the Abbotteers, whilst they cling to "turn back the boats" about which Houston specifically disagreed.

The political heat which stifles efforts to solve this issue, will only go out of the issue when both leaders agree to sit down, divested of their previous positions, and work together in genuine cooperation to find solutions, ie when they return to bipartisanship.

"Unfortunately human frailty prevents a possible path toward a solution. Neither of the current major party leaders are able to stand up and say 'We got this wrong, what we are doing is not working and we need to start again from scratch and deal with this challenge with humanity and compassion"

This is quite wrong, even mischievous.

One leader has already done this and at the time received MSM flak for it. This was when JG set up the Houston Committee with three outstanding, competent members lauded by all sides, saying that she would go forward from that point in time abiding by their findings. She was doing just that ...... agreeing to start afresh ..... and attempting to find a circuit breaker for the partisan context in which the debate was and is still occurring.

And a week or so before that she had attempted to secure Abbott's cooperation by agreeing to consider Nauru.

Psyclaw

January 16. 2013 02:42 AM

Patriciawa

Thanks, Psyclaw, I didn't know where to start on DMW's muddied and muddled arguments.

I am astonished that he cannot see the treachery in Abbott's response to the Houston proposals over the Malaysian plan once the PM had expressed a willingness to accept LNP policies like Nauru - even began to implement them.

I can accept that Abbott has no honor in keeping agreements, but surely DMW understands the real meaning of compromise and good faith.

Time for bed now.   I'll put my thinking cap on tomorrow.  

Patriciawa

January 16. 2013 10:19 AM

DMW

From the Newspapers ...
   What the front pages are saying

via Front Pages Today - http://goo.gl/enTjx

The Australian - http://goo.gl/3bnTO
Britain eyes stronger ties on defence
Such is life: 130 years on, Ned returns home to join his mother in Kelly country
Targets in focus as NBN loses secondconstruction chief

The Sydney Morning Herald - http://goo.gl/1kOHj
AGL breaks fracking pledge
Snack attack: fast food linked to growing rates of asthma

The Daily Telegraph - http://goo.gl/JXc7d
TOP BIKIE SHOT DEAD - Hells Angel killed inside family business
Detectives charge gatecrash suspect

The Age - http://goo.gl/j6tKW
Burn, baby, Bernie
Anti-gay rights to stay
HOW MUCH? Peter Martin demystifies supermarket price tricks - http://goo.gl/GdhxL

The Herald Sun - http://goo.gl/0wNCf
Armstrong: I'll turn drug whistleblower
DAD"S CRASH DISMAY

The Courier Mail - http://goo.gl/7NTLf
WE WANT OUT - Riot family's desperate bid to end war
If looks could kill ... Two years ago we asked Lance if he was a drug cheat ...

The Adelaide Advetiser - http://goo.gl/ApkdY
Pool safety laws up for review
IT’S MY PARTY - Premier, not factions, to set Cabinet

The Hobart Mercury - http://goo.gl/J8x10
Chipper Charlie smiles again
NEW FIRE FEAR

The NT Times - http://goo.gl/7f7VB
CAR TORN IN HALF IN FATAL CRASH

DMW

January 16. 2013 10:28 AM

Tom of Melbourne

You might show me Jason where I have supported any opposition policy, and specifically that relating to asylum seekers.

In the past I’ve outlined several options that are available to reduce the attractiveness of people smuggling, but which don’t require the punitive punish the innocent policy that this government and opposition are locked into.

As for the “Houston Report” – what a joke. The government selects a few people to come up with recommendations that allow it to perform yet another u-turn.

This is a government without direction, ethics or humanity. But go ahead and support it.

Tom of Melbourne

January 16. 2013 10:28 AM

MWS

Greg Jericho's latest on *drum roll* misleading staements on productivity and AGW:

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4465672.html

MWS

January 16. 2013 10:30 AM

MWS

The Guardian to launch an Australian digital edition:

www.smh.com.au/.../...-edition-20130116-2cs28.html

MWS

January 16. 2013 10:35 AM

LadyInRed

DMW

I looked up to see if the UN includes the term 'economic'. The definition of an Asylum Seeker:

a person who, from fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, social group, or political opinion, has crossed an international frontier into a country in which he or she hopes to be granted refugee status


I believe the main term we need to pick up on is persecution. I believe that is what takes up most of the investigation time, proving that persecution. I guess if you could prove that you were not allowed to work because of your race, religion etc. then you would be a refugee based on economics, but that is still persecution not simply economic.

I can believe that people could be economic refugees (without persection). I can believe that if a person came to my village and convinced me that if I hand over a whole lot of money and told me that in Australia you just have top spend 6 motnhs in detention and then you can live in this fabulous country, I would do it. I would grab it with both hands, make no bones about it. But I am not a refugee in the true sense of the word.

I also disagree with your asertion that people smuggling is a description that should be treated with contempt. Smuggling people is an industry, and a very contemptible industry at that. It promises people everything and delivers mostly misery. For Australia the 'boat market' is young males. For the UK and other European nations, as well as young men, it is vulnerable women and girls who get put into brothels or sweatshops.

I doubt taking in more refugees will somehow stop a market that has opened up. I am not saying that the current AS policy will stop it either, but what I am saying is that we are now dealing with people who have found a very lucrative market that seamingly has an endless supply of takers. The governments in these countries are unlikely to raise the economic standards for their citizens in the short term and perhaps maybe never, given welfare and social support is not high on their list of priorities. Its a case of supply and demand. So far the best way of killing off a supply is to get rid of the demand. I think tobacco is the prime example, however it took a many pronged approach to make a sizeable difference in demand. It will be the same for this industry.

I don't know what the solution is, but I do believe that bipartisanship would be a good start. But only if the politics were removed, and that is unlikely. Its the politics that has made this a much more expensive and with a very unsatisfactory result.

LadyInRed

January 16. 2013 10:39 AM

LadyInRed

Jason

On a lighter note. I have decided I am an upper middle bogan. I saw that tem on the ABC last night - its a new comedy. I like it. I guess it means a bogan with money? Or a bogan on the way up the social ladder who hasn't quite let go of their boganism.

LadyInRed

January 16. 2013 11:06 AM

DMW

Psyclaw @ January 15. 2013 10:42 PM,
One leader has already done this ... This was when JG set up the Houston Committee

Can you point me toward any statement where the PM said words anything like:
We got this wrong, what we are doing is not working and we need to start again from scratch and deal with this challenge with humanity and compassion

I can find nothing like it in the official transcript announcing the Houston Panel http://goo.gl/cVo09

I direct your attention to this Age editorial:
Those seeking refuge deserve dignity and respect - http://goo.gl/kt9Zj

Are you, or is anybody, able to see either party leader making any sort of statement similar to that suggested in this editorial?

Should a leader stand up and make a speech with similar sentiment and then have the courage to follow through we would have a change in the debate and over time the issue would be put to bed.

Can you also point me toward anything that shows the opposition has voted down any legislation or any other instrument specifically related to the Houston recommendations?

We all know that the theatre and daily drama of politics and how it is presented to us more often than not paints a different picture to the reality of actual legislation passed and policies implemented.

DMW

January 16. 2013 11:33 AM

Psyclaw

Pappinbarra fox @ 12:51 PM January 15

On January 15 DMW cryptically provided some dates @12.12pm in answer to my question about how, when and why the breakdown of the long established bipartisan approach to immigration occurred.

Given the dates he provided (4 April 1990, 20  December 1991 and 10 December 1992), apparently DMW  places the ball in the court of PJK .

The dates coincide respectively with the elevation of PJK to deputy PM, then to  PM, and to the date of his acclaimed Redfern Speech.

In that speech, PJK put on record for the first time the view that the major issues which had injured indigenous Australians (dispossession of land and children, disease and alcoholism, murder and mayhem) had been perpetrated on them by Europeans.

I am unsure why on the basis of that speech PJK would be seen as the instigator of  a partisan approach to immigration. Perhaps there is a fact based argument for it, but the onus of presenting that argument is on the proposer …. in this case DMW.

As to the Redfern Speech being causatively related to the partisan politics, Christopher Pyne’s lauding of the speech as “a landmark speech in the reconciliation process” is just one view that suggests otherwise.

In seeking other views about the demise of bipartisanship about immigration, I was seeking additional information to supplement my existing thoughts. I was not without a pre-existing view.

There are three aspects to my thinking. There might be other explanations as well.

(1) The rise of Pauline Hanson and specifically her maiden speech when she decried Asian immigration because “Orstraya is for Orstrayans”.

(2) The negligent and deafeningly silent response of the Howard government and Howard himself to Hanson’s outrageous ideas over a period of time (generally held to be the result of Howard not wanting to offend the Hanson supporters who were seen to be from the conservos constituency)

Note that the conservos were covertly active against Hanson  per medium of the current LOTO’s anti Hanson slush fund.

(3) The role of the Tampa issue as the major election issue in 2001 and the “we will decide who comes here and under what circumstances” speech, by which Howard sycophanted Hanson.

In the light of Howard’s undeniable role, it beats me why an alleged Labor supporter would single out PJK as a precursor to the fall of the bipartisanship, and at the same time make absolutely no reference to the Howard/Hanson era.

As the saying goes “who needs enemies when you’ve got friends like that”.

Of course if some other important relevant events occurred on the dates cryptically provided, then much of what I have written can be considered to be based on a false premise.

Psyclaw

January 16. 2013 11:34 AM

DMW

PWA @ 2:42 AM,
These are the (summary) recommendations of the 'Houston Panel' specifically relating to Malaysia:

Recommendation 5
The panel recommends that australia continue to develop its vitally important
cooperation with Malaysia on asylum issues, including the management of a substantial
number of refugees to be taken annually from malaysia (paragraphs 3.23-3.24).


Recommendation 10
the panel recommends that the 2011 Arrangement between the Government of
Australia and the Government of Malaysia on Transfer and Resettlement (Malaysia
agreement) be built on further, rather than being discarded or neglected, and
that this be achieved through high-level bilateral engagement focused on strengthening
safeguards and accountability as a positive basis for the australian parliament’s
reconsideration of new legislation that would be necessary (paragraphs 3.58-3.70).


Leave aside the bluff and bluster and theatre of politics and please point out to me where Mr Abbott, Mr Morrison or any other LNP has, at this stage, prevented the government from pursuing these recommendations?

As members of the expert panel have said, It will take time ...

I am happy to be corrected but I can't recall any legislation or other instrument on these recommendations being presented to the parliament let alone the opposition voting them down.

I must apologise to you for presenting things in such away that you find them muddied and muddled and I will make amends (if at all possible) to make things clearer.

DMW

January 16. 2013 11:51 AM

MWS

Loved to see these two articles side by side:

twitter.com/.../1

MWS

January 16. 2013 11:58 AM