Deficit Hawks and Spending Doves

The preceding cartoon got me to thinking about the 'Deficit Hawks' in our own country, such as the conservative economist, Warwick McKibbin, and, of course, the squawking 'Debt & Deficit' Hawks in the Opposition, (dis)ably led by Tony Abbott, Joe Hockey and Andrew Robb.

For a nanosecond, when confronted, they will admit that the Australian economy is performing 'well' at the moment. Outstandingly well, if you ask me, but then as soon as is humanly possible they use the opportunity presented to them by the journalist to rail at the ‘massive debt’ that the ALP has ‘racked up’, and how Labor are committed to ‘out of control spending’, or ‘unable to rein in their spending’, or ‘cut back on the stimulus program’, as if negating the tail end of the response to the GFC would make more than a hill of beans of difference, but which would, in all probability, have a negative effect on the economy, GDP and, in all likelihood, the Budget Deficit, as larger welfare payments would have to be made to the newly unemployed.

Also, as the above cartoon demonstrates (and, for your information, the cartoonist is a former banker, so, as a result of bitter experience he would know what he was on about), when Conservative Deficit Hawks squawk about ‘slashing spending’, when pressed it's always the other guy’s programs that they want to cut into, not theirs.

Deficit Hawks fuel 'Deficit Hysteria'.

Probably there is no hotter topic for us politics tragics than deficit control vs. budget spending against the potential of recession, during and after the GFC.

The two camps – Deficit Hawks and Spending Doves – are clearly separate. Arguments are exchanged at the speed of light across the Internet, and in the media, and we have little time to digest the facts.

On the one side have been those governments and treasuries, the 'Spending Doves', who urged aggressive fiscal expansion policies, with government deficit spending and debt growth, facing up to the uncertainty of the forecasts of the likely outcome of the GFC, including the risk, at the present time, of a 'Double Dip Recession' for some countries.

On the other side are those who think the moment of exit from Keynesian and pro-cyclical strategies arrived yesterday, after their mates in the Banks had their butts pulled out of the fire by the taxpayer, now justified 'due to high levels of government debt’, a fiscal deficit, and public debt ratios that will 'depress future growth in the economy'. These are the 'Deficit Hawks' fuelling 'Deficit Hysteria'.

Now, if you really want to read the proof to justify not believing the debt hysteria hype, you could consult learned exposés, such as, Deficit Hysteria Redux? Why We Should Stop Worrying About US Government Deficits (and if they believe that you shouldn't worry about the US government deficit, why the heck are people worrying about ours?), and Does Excessive Sovereign Debt Really Hurt Growth?, both by Yeva Nersisyan and Professor L. Randall Wray (And note how that hot button term 'Sovereign Debt' gets dealt with as no big deal anyway).

What they basically argue is that deficits do NOT burden future generations with debt, nor do they crowd out private spending or borrowing. Conclusion: 'Sovereign governments are “default proof”, even if their non-government sectors are still crisis prone.' Thus, what people in the political parties of capital are essentially worrying about is the collapse of private enterprise, not 'beggar thy government'. Fair enough. However, they should be transparent about the fact that they are attempting to preserve their base, as opposed to the specious fear mongering about government 'Debt & Deficit'.

Now, if, like me, you have no way to avoid Joe Hockey's 'blatherings' about the economy, so ubiquitous are they, you will notice a couple of well-worn 'debt hysteria' slogans above that have slipped from his lips repeatedly of late, when criticising the Labor federal Government's Stimulus spending program. That is, that future generations of Australians will be burdened with the debt being created by this ALP government, and, that the government borrowings, “$100 million per day!!!” to fund the debt, are 'crowding out' private borrowing and private spending. When, as we can see, the empirical economic evidence by erudite economists suggests the exact opposite.

If you really want to get to tin tacks on why Hockey, et al. are wrong, Yeva Nersisyan explains it this way:
'They (debt hysterics), don't seem to understand the operational realities behind government spending and taxing. A sovereign government doesn't finance its spending in the way private sector entities, and this includes families, do. It spends by issuing IOUs/Bonds (document acknowledging debt). Hence, the arguments regarding crowding out effects, as well as this argument that governments will, of necessity, need to raise taxes in the future sometime to finance the deficit (Ricardian Equivalence), are all wrong.'

And, in fact, the real risk to the economy, as the Rudd government ably addressed during and after the GFC, is all around deflation/inflation prospects, and employment/unemployment.

As Yeva Nersisyan explains it:
“Yes, sovereign government spending is not constrained by tax and bond revenue, but by inflation. The issue is the distribution of real labour resources that are relatively fixed in the short run; this leaves less for the private sector to consume if the government starts competing with the private sector. If the government starts competing with the private sector for the use of these resources, then this may lead to inflation. It's a real resource constraint, not a financial constraint. Hence the issue is not solvency, but sustainability. In the current crisis the private sector obviously is/was not able to employ all the available labour resources. At times such as this inflation is not a concern; most developed economies are under the threat of a deflation. Ideally, in this situation the government needs to step in and hire all those left unemployed, or provide the capital to hire those left unemployed by the private sector. Once the private sector gets back on its feet the government can release those workers back into the private sector, by withdrawing the stimulus, to avoid inflation. A job guarantee/government stimulus spending program is an automatic mechanism designed to achieve precisely this.

So there you have it. It sounds exactly like the program the Rudd/Gillard government instituted during and since the GFC, which it is winding back carefully now.

If I was a conspiracy theorist I'd say that those members of the Opposition that actually understand economics, like Robb and Hockey (yeah, I know, you've got to wonder sometimes), would know all this to be true, but instead are deliberately engaged in a malevolent campaign of disinformation, destabilisation, and disruption to the smooth and effective functioning of ALP economic policy, such as we have been seeing effectively playing out since the GFC.

I mean, it's one thing to prattle on endlessly about 'Debt & Deficit', but the Coalition would surely know that you really shift votes permanently into your column when the punters start losing their jobs, as Paul Keating found out to his detriment after 'The Recession We Had to Have', and President Obama in the US also discovered in the recent 2010 Midterm elections. If large upticks in unemployment do happen then the criticism about economic incompetence sticks like Super Glue, because nothing hurts more than not being able to buy the latest mobile phone, or car, if you've lost your job for no good reason other than the economy tanking as a result of the government not being able to save jobs, which factors into your perception of their actions in the face of the recession. John Howard surfed to glory on this realisation, and I'm sure Joe Hockey would love to too.

Ain't gonna happen though, as Gillard & Co. are smarter than that.

Finally, as the cartoon alluded to, another fact that is conveniently overlooked by the 'debt hysterics' is that when they call for 'Spending Cuts', as the Coalition has, it is code for cuts to Welfare. I can't lay out the argument for that assertion any better than in the following article from The London Review of Books, conveniently published this week by Professor Ross McKibbin, of St John's College Oxford:  

It may be about the British economy and politicians, but it has direct relevance to Australia and our Conservative politicians' rhetoric about the Australian economy.

The two most important points he makes are that the budget cuts that Conservative politicians call for never make any serious attempt to drag the wealthy into the 'circle of suffering'. I mean, did the Coalition advocate for the abandonment of Tony Abbott's profligate Paid Parental Leave Scheme that favoured the wealthiest mothers in our society? No. Or, any Means Testing of Private Health and Education subsidies? No. Or an end to overly generous 'Agrarian Socialist' Rural subsidies that favoured their partners in the Coalition, the National Party, and their cohorts? No. Or, an end to Capital Gains Tax or Superannuation tax concessions that favour wealthy property investors and wealthy 'Self-Funded Retirees'? No. Just more of the same old attack the 'dole bludgers' and 'Disability Pensioners' rot and Tonynonsense.

This goes to the heart of Professor McKibbin's second, and most important point about Tory attacks on Labo(u)r governments’ 'Debt & Deficit'. That is, that crises like the GFC allow Conservatives to transform a crisis of the banking system into an attack on the Welfare State. As he says, “this, they hope, will enable them to restructure government and 'shrink' the state and its welfare systems once and for all, something they have been trying to do for the last 30 years.”

However, with this knowledge, and, as I have said, having taken the time to read the whole article, we can be forearmed with the knowledge required to counterattack the spurious assertions of the ideologically-driven Conservatives, who are truly 'Deficit Hawks' cloaked in 'concerned' clothing. Concerned for their own interests, that is.

What do you think?

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TalkTurkey

18/11/2010OOOOOH! I'M first this time! Sorry Lyn! Ad, well said. What a disgrace that the burden of this article is not trumpeted to the skies by the Media, let alone the ABC. Can you imagine though debt levels at 100%, because a huge proportion of the debt in Ireland etc must be private. . . Mon Dieu! How lucky are Aussies, especially since the last election!

TalkTurkey

18/11/2010This astonishing decision by the Vic Libs to preference Labor before the Greens - It's not really so amazing when you figure what would happen if they had preferenced Greens . . . I've no idea of the likely figures but if I'm on the overall money, it would have meant the ousting of Labor, and heaps of Greens that the Libs would have had to be in bed with, no condoms even! How could that have worked? Couldn't! So the received wisdom that Greens are wedging Labor, well yes to some degree but it's the Libs whose undies are disappearing right up their, er, . . . Those Greens are absolutely Us compared to the THEM of the Rotten Right, Labor MUST work like the devil to conciliate with Greens in all possible ways, Labor~Green co-operation sounds not too bad (or even possibly good) to me . . . For Dog's sake Greens, DON'T get Labor kicked out anywhere, the Rotten Right is infinitely more to be feared! Infinitely is no truism, it could be that if Abbort had got in, then with the connivance of the media Labor might NEVER have got in again! Not in my lifetime anyway. So Lyn, yeah, that's the main game. Come on Mr Brown, don't cut off all our noses to spite one or two of our own faces, this is NOT a fun game, it's a real-life war game. BTW Ash's letter to Harry Jenkins echoes precisely my own thoughts (I wrote it somewhere too, forget where) about what he should do to cauterise repeat offenders in Question Time . . . well worth reading, feel-good too. Go Harry. http://ashghebranious.wordpress.com/

Michael

18/11/2010I think that whatever you think, or whatever I think, or whatever anyone thinks who actually looks into the facts and informed opinion about economic matters, that so long as the likes of Abbott and Hockey peddle their myths the Australian public will lap them up rather than question them. We saw it in the election, "Labor can't handle money", from Abbott himself. The GREAT myth of Conservative politicians worldwide - that the parties of business 'naturally' know how to handle the business of government, and will always succeed where Left-leaning governments fail - is demonstrably false. But somehow a pinstripe suit and a fresh haircut convinces people who would never be fooled about anything else that these guys know what they are on about. The Coalition just pushes the repeat button on their phrase of the week (this week "the government that lost it's way" is the T-shirt politics choice of inanity to be inserted into every comment and question from the pinstripe boys and hairsprayed girls) as if that's all they need do to nail their point. We don't have political discourse or economic debate in this country. We have obstructionism and fabricated high dudgeon from an Opposition with no policies tethered to reality. They offer not an alternative government but a cabal of catchphrase commenteers.

Ad astra reply

18/11/2010LYN'S DAILY LINKS updated: http://www.thepoliticalsword.com/page/Lyns-Daily-Links.aspx

Ad astra reply

18/11/2010Hillbilly/Feral Skeleton Thank you for your thoughtful, well-referenced piece that gives the lie to the Coalition’s ‘Debt and Deficit’ mantra – one that it still repeats mindlessly. Remember Malcolm Turnbull’s ‘$300 Billion Labor Debt Bomb’ carted around on the back of a truck? Aimed at scaring the public to panic stations, the debt is less than a third of that figure, a figure conjured up from Turnbull’s magic calculator and echoed faithfully by the MSM and TV outlets. Isn’t it passing curious that we have not had one comment in the MSM about how exaggerated that ridiculous figure actually was. The revised debt figure of less than $60 billion, which amounts to less than 5% of GDP, (as recorded in the 2009/2010 Federal Budget, http://www.budget.gov.au/2009-10/content/bp1/html/bp1_bst10-05.htm ) is like a person on an annual wage of $100,000 taking out a $6000 loan! Big deal. But your piece goes way beyond the actual size of the debt; it challenges the very basis of the alarm that the Coalition portrays in its Debt and Deficit mantra. As your references show, ‘…deficits do NOT burden future generations with debt, nor do they crowd out private spending or borrowing’. As you point out, Joe Hockey’s insistence [i]“…that future generations of Australians will be burdened with the debt being created by this ALP government, and, that the government borrowings, “$100 million per day!!!” to fund the debt, are 'crowding out' private borrowing and private spending”[/i] (and thereby pushing up interest rates) is nonsense, “[i]as the empirical economic evidence by erudite economists suggests the exact OPPOSITE.[/i]” The article by Oxford Professor Ross McKibbin, (not to be confused with our own ANU Professor Warwick McKibbin) to which you refer, warns us about what we might expect if the conservative forces in this country get hold of the Treasury with the intent of ‘slashing’ government expenditure. It will likely replicate the approach of the UK Conservatives, whose actions impinge on the less-well-off, particularly those on welfare, while leaving the wealthy outside ‘the circle of suffering’. Finally, as you suggest, if Joe Hockey and Andrew Robb had even a rudimentary understanding of economics (or even read such papers as you reference), they would know that their Debt and Deficit mantra is disingenuous. So that leaves us with two options – they are economically ignorant or they deliberately tell lies about Debt and Deficit. Take your pick.

Michael

18/11/2010Ad Astra commented: "Finally, as you suggest, if Joe Hockey and Andrew Robb had even a rudimentary understanding of economics (or even read such papers as you reference), they would know that their Debt and Deficit mantra is disingenuous. So that leaves us with two options – they are economically ignorant or they deliberately tell lies about Debt and Deficit. Take your pick." Both. And, at any given time, Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber don't even know which 'pick' they're spouting.

TalkTurkey

18/11/2010HFS Sorry to have misattributed your article to Ad astra. Sure ain't no insult though eh. Well said You.

Feral Skeleton

18/11/2010Michael, Sadly, you are right. We are living in an alternative universe wherein we are led to believe that we have a democracy, and that the media is on the little guy's side, speaking truth to power. However, as we who actually see through the purple haze of the purple prose that we find served up to us daily in the media, it is in fact, the opposite. The media are the handmaidens to the powerful, peddling disingenuous disinformation. Of course, there are those among them, who manfully soldier on in the MSM, only now and again singing for their supper, usually employed by the fast-diminishing number of media proprietors who are not a Murdoch. Moreso overseas than here in Australia. However, the Fairfax group approximates media balance. Still, what I worry about is that as the divergent media groups proprietorial families wither on the vine over generations, and fall out or whatever, that there always seems to be a Murdoch waiting to pounce on their assets. Like with his play for 'The Wall Street Journal', recently. A united front might have fended him off, but some of the family were tempted by the money he was offering, and so the resistance faltered. Some were even stupid enough to believe him when he said he wouldn't change the editorial direction. What fools. So now we have one of the most pre-eminent economic media outlets spouting just the sort of garbage that Tony Abbott, Joe Hockey and Andrew Robb volubly proffer on a daily basis here. All I can hope is that The Guardian in the UK is kept out of his clutches. Plus smaller outlets like the London Review of Books, and the New Yorker, in America. Plus, of course, us here in the 5th Estate! How else will we be able to continue to access the truth?

Feral Skeleton

18/11/2010Talk Turkey, No offence taken! In fact, as you alluded to, I'm flattered to be compared to Ad Astra. :)

lyn

18/11/2010Hi Feral Skeleton Thankyou so much for your once again, brilliant piece, Hillbilly Feral, thoroughly enjoyable, and very much appreciated. Great fun the "lucky Ducky Comic". As Ad said:[quote]Remember Malcolm Turnbull’s ‘$300 Billion Labor Debt Bomb’ carted around on the back of a truck? [/quote] Wonder what happened to that truck, hasn't been on TV for a long time, funny eh, they used to climb up the ladder and paint fictitious figures all over it, more lies and lies on top of lies.

2353

18/11/2010That Tony Abbott can sleep each night (well I assume he does :)) with a personal income to debt ratio higher than the Australian Government - as brilliantly highlighted by The Chaser last election campaign - shows the whole debt is bad campaign is hysterical nonsense peddled by an out of touch opposition that knows it really can't put a factual glove on how the current Government is running the country. I also found this story in the Brisbane Times (and I assume other Fairfax on-line sites) interesting for it's reporting of the truth[quote]Speaker forced to use casting vote to stop government losing November 18, 2010 - 1:16PM Speaker Harry Jenkins was required to make his first casting vote today following a tied vote in the House of Representatives. His vote prevented the lower house from voting on a Coalition motion calling for more mental health funding. It also prevented the government from losing a third vote since the hung Parliament began sitting in September.[/quote] http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/speaker-forced-to-use-casting-vote-to-stop-government-losing-20101118-17ylz.html Isn't the real story here the stability of the current parliament since the "drawn" election as the Government has lost only three votes in the current session?

Feral Skeleton

18/11/2010lyn, You're a sweety, Tweety! :) I was thinking that, if I lost my latest blog-generated avatar, I would have to call myself Feral Hillbilly!

Feral Skeleton

18/11/20102353, I love the PM's line about the Mad Monk from the NBN debate today: "Once again we've seen ... the leader of the opposition revealed as a man who wakes up every day and he hasn't bothered carrying a conviction from yesterday with him," she said. http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/technology/technology-news/tony-abbotts-demand-for-nbn-business-case-fails-in-house-20101118-17ys1.html

Feral Skeleton

18/11/2010Another great line from the PM: "This from an Opposition that wouldn't know the National Interest if it fell over it." :)

Jason

18/11/2010H/FS, as sexist and shallow as it sounds and off topic! can you get your local member "ms Deb" to ask more questions at question time? we in the riggers pool at work today were very impressed! with the assets! and done a straw pole she should be a minister! From the boy's of the CFMEU Adelaide branch!

Miglo

18/11/2010Did somebody say 'lucky duck?'

Feral Skeleton

18/11/2010Jason, Groan! I think every red-blooded male in Australia who watches parliament has noticed what an 'asset' we have in our new local member. :) She's worth an extra 1-2% of the male vote at least! However, she's also a happily-married, good Irish Catholic mum, and an ex-University lecturer in Education. Oh yeah, you should see her daughters!

Feral Skeleton

18/11/2010Migs, Always cleaning up after the capitalists' mistakes. Such is the duck's lot in life. :)

lyn

18/11/2010Hi Miglo Yes, Lucky Ducky, they meant you.

Jason

18/11/2010FS, I know we should get our minds out of the gutter We'll try harder! that's tomorrow's three word slogan!

patriciawa

19/11/2010Feral Skeleton - so true about the scare mongering on debt by the right, but how to crack their credibility? I'm no economist, but it seems to me that the GFC was caused by the the big con on little people from big money and the Right that debt was Okay and now there's another big con that national debt incurred by the Left to rescue all you little people from a the big debt mess we made is not Okay. I don't think that Hockey is as stupid as we all like to make out. He knows as do Abbot and co. that they are manipulating public opinion in trying to scare people by inflating our national debt. But they have taken it beyond credibility and I hope that D Mick Weir is right in his comment last night that things are starting to change and there is hope. I read the Andrew Leigh speech he referred us to. Sadly that's not being widely reported in the press as it should be. Clarke and Dawes were brilliant tonight on how the Royal wedding was pushing Debt out of the headlines in the U.K. The Tories are glad are glad for it to be out of the limelight for a while now that their scare campaign has got them into office. Larvatus Prodeo invited satire on Kate and Wills today, but the thread has stopped being funny and become acrimonious. Since they asked for poetry too I did this one below but instead of the wedding I found myself still on Mr. Rabbit and his slogans - and yes his lack of real convictions. It's a bit off thread here, but does follow up Julia's lovely line you mention about Abbot's convictions, or lack thereof. [i]Mr. Rabbit’s all excited. The royal troth at last is plighted.[/i] It’s great to hear in Downunderland, From far away in our motherland, After all that prenuptial bedding There’s going to be a royal wedding. The government there is overjoyed. Here’s something for the unemployed To smile about as they drink their beer. Mr. Rabbit sees a problem here. This marriage should not let Oz forget The problem of its Great Big Debt. The Red Queen has been most gracious, Though Mr. Rabbit claims it's mendacious, In suggesting that the royal pair Should visit us, but come by air. A honeymoon in that Great Big Boat, Brittania, won’t win anyone a vote. Now he plans a modern version Of a famous, long ago excursion. He’d love to take our ‘Kate and Wills’ On a trip with him to the Adelaide Hills. Stop Press announcement from the Lodge! Here’s a question Mr. Rabbit cannot dodge Without comment that could disparage The news of another forthcoming marriage. Yes, the Red Queen to Tim Mathieson, Attended by Wills and Ms Middleton. Our PM, leading a proud young nation, Is now a worldwide media sensation. Mr. Rabbit, facing certain failure, Needs something new to excite Australia. It’s time, he says, not missing a beat, For Oz to stand on its own two feet. Then he declares, all brave and hearty, “I announce today that our great party” – He pauses. This is his Rubicon. “Will henceforth be Republican.” So he and Malcolm are now requited. He’s lost the chance of being knighted. He still has to beat the wily Red Queen, ”Dear God," he prays, "Can't I do it without turning Green?”

Sir Ian Crisp

19/11/2010I’m sure the Bird of Paradox descended into apoplexy when none other than Barnaby Joyce used Senator Conroy to demonstrate why some of our MPs are grossly overpaid. After Conroy said that the National Broadband Network was not mentioned in The Telecommunications Legislation Amendment (Competition and Consumer Safeguards) Bill 2010, Joyce had to remind Conroy, the member for Lethe, that the NBN is mentioned 62 times. Joyce also pointed out that the NBN got a mention 136 times in the supplementary memorandum and a further 6 times in the second reading speech. Let’s hope the Bird of Paradox doesn’t come up with a pithy line to dismiss her own Senator Conroy. Most mornings Conroy can be seen standing outside parliament house trying to remember which entrance he used the previous day.

lyn

19/11/2010[b]TODAY'S LINKS[/b] [i]An Open Letter To Harry Jenkins, Ashghebranious, Ash's Machiavellian Bloggery[/i] can we have a camera in the sheds? I for one would love to see what Christopher Pyne does when he is ejected. Does he punch walls? Does he vandalise toilets? The public need to know! http://ashghebranious.wordpress.com:80/2010/11/18/an-open-letter-to-harry-jenkins/ [i]Anti-siphoning isn’t new paradigm-friendly, Bernard Keane, Crikey[/i] In short, when it comes to anti-siphoning, Conroy has the whip hand — unless you want to get rid of the anti-siphoning list entirely or keep the FTAs from putting sport on their multichannel.Both of which would suit subscription TV just fine http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/11/18/sorry-but-anti-siphoning-isnt-new-paradigm-friendly/ [i]A Lack of Confessions, Greg Jericho, Grog's Gamut[/i] he came across as he generally does on TV – smart, personable and knowledgeable of the working of politics. http://grogsgamut.blogspot.com/2010/11/lack-of-confessions.html [i]The NBN business plan, Paul Budde, BuddeBlog[/i] A new report is on its way from the OECD which will champion the social and economic benefits that can de derived from broadband. http://www.buddeblog.com.au/frompaulsdesk/the-nbn-business-plan/ [i]A Win for talking about equal marriage, but not NBN Case just Yet, Aussie Pollies And Their Paradigms [/i] The Opposition is on the fierce attack and the Government is bunkering down in defense on issues including the NBN. On all counts the Government is fighting back, yet the Opposition has seemed to lay a few blows in recent weeks and days. http://newparadigmpollies.blogspot.com/ [i]Inconsistency of the Senate, David Havyatt, Anything Goes[/i] The coalition would NEVER support a motion that any business was required to publish its whole business plan, even though that plan spends "shareholder money". http://davidhavyatt.blogspot.com/ [i]The Coalition’s NBN credibility problem, Crikey[/i] The Coalition’s only stated policy on achieving this is to “demolish the NBN”, and its approach appears to consist entirely of trying at every turn to delay whatever it possibly can. http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/11/18/crikey-says-the-coalitions-nbn-credibility-problem/ [i]Government rebuffed over broadband network plan,ARN[/i] An opposition motion to send the NBN to the Productivity Commission for scrutiny and for the immediate release of the business case failed earlier in the day. http://www.arnnet.com.au/article/368534/government_rebuffed_over_broadband_network_plan/ [i]Victorian election minus nine days, William Bowe, The Poll Bludger[/i] • Roy Morgan has exposed itself to ridicule by not only publishing a phone poll of the four Labor-versus-Greens seats from a sample of just 276, but also http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollbludger/ [i]Did the stimulus work?, We are all Dead[/i] John Howard’s biographer, David Barnett, has a piece in the Drum today arguing against the use of fiscal stimulus in recessions http://mattcowgill.wordpress.com:80/2010/11/18/did-the-stimulus-work/ [i]R-E-S-P-E-C-T, The Conscience Vote[/i] Being ejected from the chamber is no light thing – it shows up in Hansard, and it’s a black mark against the MP in question. It should be a form of public shaming http://consciencevote.wordpress.com/2010/11/18/r-e-s-p-e-c-t/ [i]Smearing made easy, Dave Gaukroger, Pure Poison[/i] It certainly looks as though News Ltd are planning to make life very hard for Rob Oakeshott over the next three years http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/ [i]Softening the blow,Sara Dowse, Inside Story[/i] possible that New South Wales, like Tasmania and Australia federally, will end up with a hung parliament. Even then, no one can remotely envisage Labor as the minority government. http://inside.org.au/softening-the-blow/ [i]"Nasty Joe Hockey"launches attack on'nasty'PM Julia Gillard, Stephen Read,Stroke of Luck [/i] THE Coalition has launched a concerted attack on Julia Gillard, accusing her of being nasty and having no "ticker". http://www.goodluckstroke.com/ [i]John Howard's re-re-re-launch of Lazarus Rising, and that mango, Island View, Blogging Townsville[/i] It took me a long while to realise that it's not a potato he's menacing, but rather a Mango.... an Anti Skinny Shoe-Hurler Operational Logistics Enabling Military Attack Neutralising Gooks Ordinance http://bloggingtownsville.blogspot.com/ [i]NOW THE TRUMPET SUMMONS US AGAIN: The man who slayed One Nation in Queensland calls for a new fight against the extremist Greens, Ron Boswell, Vex News[/i] the Greens are the left. They are socialists. Their policies are mostly puerile, the stuff you would expect from a socialist political club at a university. Their policies are totally uncosted. They are, for the most part, utter nonsense, but they are a very, very dangerous form of nonsense http://www.vexnews.com/news/11592/now-the-trumpet-summons-us-again-the-man-who-slayed-one-nation-in-queensland-calls-for-a-new-fight-against-the-extremist-greens/

Ad astra reply

19/11/2010LYN'S DAILY LINKS updated: http://www.thepoliticalsword.com/page/Lyns-Daily-Links.aspx

Feral Skeleton

19/11/2010Jason, I know it'll be hard for you guys. :)

Feral Skeleton

19/11/2010Jason, here's something for you guys to discuss at Smoko: Who's hotter, Deb O'Neill, or Kate Ellis? Either way, Labor is blessed with the hottest MPs. :)

BH

19/11/2010Good post HS and lots to think about. Michael's 't-shirt' analogy of Abbott's slogans could work for Labor and demolish the economic myths surrounding the Opposition. Labor could have a big black hole front and back below a slogan which I'm not clever enough to think of but somebody else could. All avenues to expose the Opposition's posturing on the economy need to be front and centre for the next 3 years.

NormanK

19/11/2010Hillbilly Skeleton Thanks for another great piece. We know you've gone feral but there'll always be a saucer of milk at the back door if ever you find your way home and need a little calcium boost. At the time of the Stimulus roll-out, in particular the $900 cheques to individuals, I amused myself imaging the journey that my money might have embarked on once I had spent it. For reasons best known to Dog (thanks TT if its yours), your article re-awakened that little flight of fancy and for your sins I would like to share a bit of it here. For ease of handling I'll deal with a single $100 note (who I'll call Albert in honour of my late grandfather) which I might have very responsibly spent on buying a single item manufactured in Queensland and retailed by an Australian-owned business located here in my sunny little village. Now before I parted with Albert I broke him down into 10,000 one cent pieces (remember them?) and sprinkled them with low-grade uranium so that I could keep track of them as they skittered in and out of people's pockets and bank accounts. So now I've got my new toy, and very happy I am with it, the shopkeeper has a brightly glowing Albert, and very happy he is with it and because of other like-minded people spending part of their stimulus cheques at this store, a salesperson has still got a job and very happy they are with it. Albert now explodes into 10,000 little parts. A great proportion of Albert initially goes to the wholesaler who provided the toy and we'll follow that bit of him later. The GST component of the sale, 10% of Albert, went to the state government who used it to purchase twenty-three pages of a text book for a school, 1.2 kilograms of gravel for a road and forty threads for a pillow-case for a hospital. The text book needed to be written, so the author gets a tiny portion of Albert. Then it had to be edited and proof-read and laid out and printed on paper which had to be manufactured from trees which had to be cut down and dragged out of the forest and processed and shipped to the printer's workshop. The printer used ink which had to be manufactured, put into a dispenser and transported. He used presses driven by electricity which had to be generated by using coal that had to be dug up, processed and transported. The pages are bound and the books put into a box (which had to be manufactured from cardboard which was made etc. etc.) which is taken to a warehouse that the printer leases and ultimately it is transported to a school library which may be its final resting place. Various bits of Albert contributed to paying for all of this. Same story with the 1.2 kilograms of gravel although there are a lot more trucks involved and unless you like trucks a lot, it's a pretty boring story. The cotton for the pillow-case was grown in NSW, harvested, transported, processed, bundled up, turned into thread, woven into fabric and turned into a pillow-case. You get the idea. Before I know it, poor old Albert, or 100 one cent pieces of him, are spread all over Australia, rubbing shoulders with other adventuring one cent coins who band together to make coins of other denominations, gold sometimes and even occasionally a note. Bits of him drift in and out of bank accounts and a surprising number find that they have made multiple journeys to state and federal coffers (as GST, income tax or company tax) where they meet up with other specks of Albert and sit up all night regaling each other with stories. Fortunately for them they don't stay long in the musty old Treasury buildings but are soon chooffed off out into the world for further adventures. A similar story exists for the portion of Albert that the shopkeeper was able to keep. Bits of him paid wages, shop rental, electricity and so on and some of him was profit which ultimately became disposable income that the shopkeeper spent in another store thereby setting off another cycle. The wholesaler who got a big chunk of Albert has a similar tale. He used some of those one cent pieces to buy the toy from a manufacturer and to pay transport, wages, leases, bills, taxes and hopefully deliver dividends or profits to his backers. All of these bits of Albert are soon floating around the economy, provided they haven't gone off-shore and even then some of them find their way home to Australia. Imagine my surprise when, three months after the purchase, I find a speck of Albert in my pension payment. Poor chap, this part of him is no linger disposable income but he will go towards the staples of life and continue on his grand adventure. In the meantime, other pieces of Albert have been spent hundreds and hundreds, perhaps thousands of times leaving a tiny point of light wherever they pass. Finally they come to rest in a piggy bank or some miser's bank account and have to cool their heels waiting for him to die. As part of their journey, each of these 10,000 little bits of Albert have touched the lives of millions of people in a positive way. They've paid for something. Any economists out there, I'm sorry for stating the obvious or ballsing it up but there is a point to this ramble. Two points really. First, at the time of the hand-outs one of the criticisms was that people would spend their cheques on grog and cigarettes and gambling and so would 'waste' it. The idea seemed to be that once the original beneficiary had spent the money, it was now somehow dead, lying inert in the bottom of a poker machine. As the above story hopefully shows, it doesn't matter what the money was spent on because the effect of its presence in the economy was multiplied hundreds, perhaps thousands of times by the simple virtue of its existence in the system and being re-used time and again. In a booming economy this would be a bad thing but when we were staring recession in the face, this type of boost right across the spectrum of the manufacturing, agriculture, resource and retail industries was just what the doctor ordered. The same can be said for all of the Stimulus Packages and, as many eminent individuals have pointed out, the range of targets chosen by the government was praiseworthy. The second point is with regard to the opposite effect that would result from cutting government spending (beyond a wind-down of stimulus) in the manner being advocated by the Deficit Hawks in the interest of either political expediency or misplaced economic policies when we are still facing a potential second dip. Imagine the 10,000 bits of Albert NOT touching millions of people's lives. I can see little points of light winking out as each of these Anti-Alberts snuffs out the income and advancement of millions of Australian individuals, businesses and industries. In the same way that each cent of Albert only gently touched people's lives and helped to lift them up to a better and more stable place, the Anti-Alberts would slowly eat away at these same people who would, apparently suddenly, find themselves on the dole queue or on the street, stretching under-resourced charities and blaming foreigners for taking their jobs and resenting overseas aid money. Better yet, imagine 4,000,000,000,000 bits or more being removed from the economy just so that the Treasurer can look at the books and see black ink. Black ink signifying money doing nothing. Meanwhile Australia withers on the vine.

Senexx

19/11/2010I haven't decided whether McKibbin is Conservative or Libertarian but he is certainly WRONG! I think it is super cool that you're reading L. Randally Wray (Randy Wray). There's a nice little parable about 100 dogs and 95 bones - 5 dogs will always be without a bone unless you create more bones. You can train the dogs all you like but you'll just have a different 5 come back without a bone. Those that argue for cutting spending are asking for less bones to be out there which is just reinforcing the status quo. Oh and please note I haven't read all the comments yet.

Feral Skeleton

19/11/2010NormanK, Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant! Like the millions of points of 'Albert's' light that shone out, with beaming radiance, across the country, to keep the home fires burning during the GFC. Yet, all we get, and especially at the time of the year ususally devoted to a consideration of of Christmas cheer and goodwill to all men, is the Scrooges in theConservative Coalition spitting out their venomous insults at a good government, wasting the nation's time with their confected realities. Honestly, the sooner the media gets shot of this bastardised notion of 'balance' in their reporting, which has just been used to ramp-up the lie peddling, on an equal footing with the truth, the better it will be for the national debate. I won't be holding my breath though because the Conservatives, around the world, know when they are on a good thing, and, like the maggots they are, they will stick to it and not let anyone dislodge them from the carrion flesh of democracy that they are slowly killing.

Feral Skeleton

19/11/2010NormanK, Btw, I thought Feral Hillbillies were partial to Moonshine? :)

Feral Skeleton

19/11/2010BH, Simple t-shirt slogan under the Black Hole would be: Here lives the Coalition's Economic Plan.'

Feral Skeleton

19/11/2010PatriciaWA, I think I speak for us all here when I say that we don't mind when you go off-thread and bark up the 'wrong' tree. :)

D Mick Weir

19/11/2010To whom to I write? to she with the identity crisis (HS/FS) :-) re your comment to Jason @ November 19. 2010 08:40 AM and wrt yor comment on previous thread @ November 18. 2010 08:21 AM: [i]"Dr Andrew Leigh is truly a Thinking Woman's piece of crumpet."[/i] Dare I ask "who is hotter Dr Leigh or (hmmm thinking) .... umm Craig Emmerson?" btw I chuckled most of day after I read that thanks for the laugh :-)

patriciawa

19/11/2010Thanks Norman K. And let's remind ourselves that at the time the GFC hit the Opposition supported most of the government's stimulus efforts. That double dip recession on the horizon will certainly teach the Hawks a lesson or two in some countries when they resist stimulus and try even harder to stay 'in the black' - cutting back on services and subsidies throughout their economies. I can imagine Abbot and Co in government here if GFC Mark II hits us simply throwing up their hands, blaming the ALP for the mess they left us in.

Michael

19/11/2010Under the image of a black hole on the T-shirt - "Coalition Economic Policy; all tunnel, no light".

Ad astra reply

19/11/2010Patriciawa Very elegant verse. Sir Tony Abbott would have been a fine accolade, but since he’s turned Republican, he’ll have to settle for the an AC – Companion of the Order of Abbott’s Coalition. NormanK What a salutary lesson for economists, many of whom seem unable to comprehend the way money goes around and around and around. Jason Three word slogans for anti-Abbott T-shirts would be the order of the day for someone who himself seems unable to move beyond three words, to wit: ‘end the waste’, ‘pay back debt’, ‘stop new taxes’ and ‘stop the boats’. What about: End the lies Pay back sycophants Stop black holes Stop Tony Abbott

Jason

19/11/2010AA, This sort of fits with theme of this subject, a Tory peer in the old dart Says "Tory peer says majority have 'never had it so good' " http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-peer-says-majority-have-never-had-it-so-good-2138237.html

lyn

19/11/2010Hi Ad A big thankyou to Don Arthur and Ken Parish at "Club Troppo". Don Arthur has given your piece on "The Political Sword" the lead at Missing Link Friday: Missing Link Friday – 19 November 2010 Posted by Don Arthur on Friday, November 19, 2010 Cheating students, immortal hamburgers, housing nutters and a cunning plan to improve the affordability of Grange Hermitage, all feature in this week’s Missing Link Friday [b][i]Lies, lies and more lies [/i], Joe Hockey is an expert at deception, writes Ad astra at The Political Sword. The star-bound blogger questions Hockey’s claims about debt and interest rates in a long post that begins with a discourse on the nature of truth[/b]http://clubtroppo.com.au/2010/11/19/missing-link-friday-19-november-2010/

jj

19/11/2010I really do find it amazing to see Julia gillard accusing Tony Abbott about bein bitter about the election loss, and only standing for slogans when she herself is just as bad. She has sounded like a dying cat this week hissing and clawing, protecting what is left of her time. last time i checked, 'regional processing centre', 'moving forward', 'wrecker', etc are regularly used slogans by hers truly. When members of the party start talking of the slow death of their party, just a couple of months after the election, you know that they are in trouble. As for the NBN business plan, once again they are doing themselves a dis-service by not being, 'open and transparent' (another one of her slogans). It looks like they have something quite serious to hide. If the government understands the policy enough to give those independents a confidential briefing, than why cant they release it for everyone to see. Conroy really hasnt mastered the whole politics of this debate yet!

TalkTurkey

19/11/2010NormanK [Thank Dog!] Loved your adult version of The Life Story Of A Penny. Classic! When the Blogroll's Called Up Yonder It'll Be There! Only thing, I think it's too complex for those who've been Abbotomised. They ain't that smart . . . Michael, you are a good read, and probably all too truly insightful about THEM. Senexx, your gravatar don't look too senescent to me. Good one. And speaking of gravatars, democracyATwork, yours - (Swordsfolk, see post on previous thread, November 18. 2010 02:25 AM) - is my pick of all the flags I've seen published by Ausflag etc. It's actually arse-about because vexillololololologically speaking the flagpole is always imagined at left and any animal depiction should have its nose towards the pole - but apart from that it's pretty good. Not good enough to grab enough Aussies to cure us of the Royal Jack, mind, but it does obey the really important rule that "colours" in this case red and blue (called “gules” and “azure” heraldically) do not share common edges, in this case being separated by the Kangaroo in the “metal” gold (= yellow, known as ‘or’), and the stars are in the “metal” silver (= white, known as ‘argent’.) There is a point to this, in that by separating “colours”, the device is visible from afar. There used to be the requirement that there be only 3 colours including metals, but this has really been abandoned especially by some African nations, and I reckon it’s all to the good. Viva colour I reckon. I have spent a good bit of thought and time over many years trying to design a flag which all Aussies would love, it’s the very devil, but I have never thought that the symbols could be anything else than either the Southern Cross (Crux) OR a Kangaroo OR BOTH. All else is silly. The Kangaroo really ought to be the original beautiful George Kruger Gray (K.G.) Penny Kangaroo, I don’t think any stylization could ever cut the mustard. But most of the flag designs ever published are execrable, and that’s a fact. Trouble is one always wants a Red Roo on a Blue Sky, and it doesn’t work. I’d love to be able to work in an aboriginal theme, but the Kangaroo is anyway more ancient than any human. So - Any ideas? We NEED an adorable flag as an adjunct to shoehorning in the Australian Republic. Dog help us!

Jason

19/11/2010jj, I think Conroy said wtte he'll release it when he's good and ready not because Abbott wants it! Over at Crikey Bernard Kene says the following " If the senate is so agitated about needing to see the NBN business plan, it should reconvene in December to discuss it when it is released. Senators can interrupt their early summer holidays and return to Canberra and, as the Christmas decorations go up, they can debate the merits of the implementation plan. I don’t think any of us would begrudge them that." What say you? http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/11/19/when-it-comes-to-releasing-reports-the-coalition-are-hardcore-hypocrites/#Scene_1

TalkTurkey

19/11/20103 words? ABBORT! ABBORT! ABBORT!

Feral Skeleton

19/11/2010PatriciaWA, I think I speak for us all here when I say that we don't mind when you go off-thread and bark up the 'wrong' tree. :)

jj

19/11/2010Jason, So if Conroy isnt ready to talk about the business plan yet, then what is he going to be saying to the independent members in his offered briefings next week? Hmmm because if your right it wont be about the business case.

Ad astra reply

19/11/2010Hi Lyn What a compliment – Club Troppo has listed [i]How lies, deception, slogans and mantras kill the truth[/i] and [i]Lyn's Daily Links[/i] in its [i]Missing Friday Link[/i] segment. jj This week the snarling dog was no match for the hissing, clawing cat. Re the NBN business plan, try reading Bernard Keane’s piece on [i]Crikey: The Coalition’s hypocritical line on transparency[/i]. Then come back and comment. http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/11/19/when-it-comes-to-releasing-reports-the-coalition-are-hardcore-hypocrites/

CALLIGULA

19/11/2010Dear TT – your - I have spent a good bit of thought and time over many years trying to design a flag which all Aussies would love, I say – So what’s wrong with the Jolly Roger? Its easy to produce and exemplifies everything right about this country. The elect are ripping us off along with all their mates in ‘commerce’. Meanwhile the silent majority seem to enjoy being shagged mercilessly. Nothing more need be said.

Feral Skeleton

19/11/2010Senexx, I was amazed to find that there was still a school of Economics in America which hadn't been corrupted by the Austrian School, Laissez Faire Capitalism and Mercantilism. :)

jj

19/11/2010AA, Last time i checked the independents Xenophon and Oakeshott were not members of the coalition, and they are also asking the Government to make this information public, as to allow them to make an informed decision about a vote which pretty well determines the progress of the role out. Just because the Coalition did this sort of thing in the past, doesnt make it right for those that whinged about the injustices of Howard to do the same thing. How can you expect a parliament to tick off on the biggest infrastructure project in the history of Australia, without having all of the current information at their disposal...i mean what has this government got to hide. It is ok to do a cost-benefit analysis on the possible effects of a carbon price at a certain value with all the assumptions that come along with that, but somehow the greatest government expenditure in the history of our country does not get that same sort of scrutiny. Oh and AA, you continue to support the party that is slowly losing its consciousness; with a leader that has as much policy conviction as the man that she axed. She wanted power and now she finds she hasnt a clue what she is to do with it. The journos have already set the clock ticking for her leadership, and dont you worry the party you support has no problems with sacking a PM or Premier when the times are tough!

CALLIGULA

19/11/2010It struck me that some seem to believe the elect and the privileged care about creating positive outcomes for the peanut rush. They don’t. So it ain’t worth analysing what they get up to hoping to find logic or winkle out a boon. The biomass is necessary for no more than some laundering of money. F’r instance how could governments squeeze rolling taxes out of the population without turnover. Keep pretending there is a mind behind it. Keep hoping. It keeps you busy. It is intended to keep you busy.

Feral Skeleton

19/11/2010jj, Off on an off-topic frolic with the latest Coalition Talking Points fresh from your Inbox, huh? I see you haven't bothered to address the issue at hand, and how it pops the bubble of one of the most tiresomely repetitive of those Coalition Talking Points, about 'Debt and Deficit'? Obviously, no amount of concrete evidence to the contrary, of what is yet another of the Coalition's 3 Word Slogans, will make you see sense. Which makes you just another Coalition Troll, really, come here to mouth their Talking points. Groan. Anyway, to your tiresome point today. Go away and read this, then get back to us: '1. When it comes to releasing reports, the Coalition are hardcore hypocrites Crikey Canberra correspondent Bernard Keane writes: ACCOUNTABILITY, NATIONAL BROADBAND NETWORK, SENATE Watching the opposition blow hard on the NBN business plan yesterday was belly-laugh stuff. There's regular political hypocrisy and then there's the extra virgin, concentrate-they-make-concentrates-from version on offer from Tony Abbott yesterday when he interrupted question time to move "that this house requires the government immediately to publish the National Broadband Network business case". Let's go back a few years, to 2005, specifically. After being interrupted by the 2004 election, the Howard government, via that fearless protector of civil liberties Phillip Ruddock, had reintroduced a set of amendments designed to dramatically curb the rights of asylum seekers from appealing decisions relating to protection visas, and other "proceedings without a reasonable prospect of success. The Migration Litigation Reform Bill 2005 was based, said Ruddock, on a detailed and thorough review of migration litigation in 2003, the Migration Litigation Review Committee headed by Hilary Penfold. Given that substantial changes are being made in access to courts, you'd assume Ruddock would have released the Penfold Report to enable a fair assessment of whether his amendments reflected the committee's conclusions. No such luck. Ruddock refused to release the report. In fact he refused to release the report even after Liberal senators urged the government to release the report when considering the previous version of the bill. It's routine for governments not to release legal advice, of course -- despite opposition and minor party senators stamping their feet and insisting on their right to see it. But Ruddock never invoked this defence for the Penfold Review. He simply refused to release it. Other high-profile reports suffered the same fate under the Howard government. The Howard government's review of health services delivery, conducted by a taskforce chaired by Andrew Podger, was provided to the government in 2005 and was never made public -- even The Australian was moved to criticise John Howard for that. Podger had a repeat experience when he was asked to chair a review of military superannuation, which went to the government in July 2007 but wasn't released until Labor got into office. And then there's the famous KPMG report on the funding and efficiency of the ABC. That has never officially seen the light of day, although copies were leaked by -- some say -- ABC management. Then-Communications Minister Helen Coonan refused to release the KPMG report on the basis that it was part of the Budget process. It wasn't part of the formal Budget process at all, though Coonan did use it in a successful effort to secure more funding for the ABC. It's not necessarily the case that the Howard government was wrong to refuse to release such documents. One of the great rituals of the Howard years was senate clerk Harry Evans magisterially declaring that the senate had the right to demand virtually whatever it liked, and the Howard government steadfastly ignoring him. It was frequently right to do so. Governments are entitled to confidentiality in the advice they receive. That doesn't mean they don't exploit that right far beyond what is justified by either the public interest or even good political practice, but the right exists nonetheless. But there's an interesting difference between the reports the Howard government declined to release, and the NBN study. All of the examples above were reports commissioned outside the existing advice framework of government, or even in the case of the KPMG report, sourced entirely from an external party. The NBN business plan is, literally, an internal government document. Even so, the government has committed to releasing it, but simply wants to remove confidential material from it before releasing it. If the senate is so agitated about needing to see the NBN business plan, it should reconvene in December to discuss it when it is released. Senators can interrupt their early summer holidays and return to Canberra and, as the Christmas decorations go up, they can debate the merits of the implementation plan. I don't think any of us would begrudge them that.'

CALLIGULA

19/11/2010AA – you said – “Jj - This week the snarling dog was no match for the hissing, clawing cat.” I ask – What do you mean? It comes close to looking like Jooles can’t project her vaunted intelligence. If she could get into ‘em the way Keating did things’d improve. I don’t judge her that way but lots do. What would you tell her to do? Hire a better scriptwriter?

Feral Skeleton

19/11/2010Talk Turkey, Re Flag: I remember when it was all the rage there for a while to design new flags(just before Howard got in and crushed the whole evanescent effervescence about booting the Butcher's apron off the corner of the flag with his heel), and still feel that one I saw then would be nice. It used the colours of the Aboriginal flag and the Southern Cross. I think there may have been a kangaroo in there too. I myself would prefer to see the Kangaroo and the Emu, such as in the National Crest, maybe on the Right, with the Southern Cross on the Left side, both in White on a background of Red,Yellow and Black stripes.

Feral Skeleton

19/11/2010After seeing the Leader of the Opposition's performance in the debate in parliament yesterday calling for the production of the NBN Business Plan, and how his bloviating and blowhardery was just like it was the last time he took his act out for a run around the paddock, I have thus decided that he should have a new nickname: 'One Trick Tony'.

Gravel

19/11/2010HS Another fantastic post and it also highlights Ad Astra's previous post. It make you wonder why rational (if there are any) economists don't try and rebut this as what it is, lies and rubbish.. NormanK, that was a very clever lesson in economics. That is so easy to understand, it would make a great lesson for children to use in a class room. Lyn On busy days I find myself at the computer late at night (for me anyway), trying to read the wonderful links you faithfully post each days, but it is worth it. Thank you.

Jason

19/11/2010jj, In case it has escaped you the government doesn't need the support of the coalition to govern! So get used to it! and on the first of July next year you haven't the balance of power in the senate any more, so since your hardly needed you will be told on a need to know basis! Did you even read the link I left and that AA has also put up? Come on how about you start reading what we put up! then poke holes in our case?

Ad astra reply

19/11/2010CALLIGULA Read the previous posts where you will see that ‘hissing clawing cat’ were jj’s words, not mine. Read the transcripts of question time and judge whose intellect was most on show. Tony Abbott has an intellect – pity he chooses to obscure it with endless slogans, carelessly handled facts, poorly reasoned argument, and loud-mouthed belligerence. He could possibly do better, but chooses to behave as he does because he believes it yields political dividends, and anyway pugilism comes naturally to him.

Feral Skeleton

19/11/2010jj:'Oh and AA, you continue to support the party that is slowly losing its consciousness; with a leader that has as much policy conviction as the man that she axed. She wanted power and now she finds she hasnt a clue what she is to do with it. The journos have already set the clock ticking for her leadership, and dont you worry the party you support has no problems with sacking a PM or Premier when the times are tough!' And which journos would that be, jj? Hmmm, let me guess...they work for a proprietor who is an arch-conservative media empire builder and who donates millions of $ to Conservative political parties, and who has an agenda to 'demolish' Social Democrat/Progressive political parties who believe in national wealth distribution and a fair go for all, not just the privileged and the economic elites? Would their intials be DS, PA, AB, JA, AJ, RH, or any of their proteges? Anyway, since when did journos decide who should lead the country, and how long they should lead it for?

Ad astra reply

19/11/2010Folks I have an early start in the morning so I'm packing it in for the night.

Feral Skeleton

19/11/2010Calligula, The PM does well enough without a scriptwriter. If you saw her performances in parliament this week against a hapless Opposition, and even worse Opposition Leader, you would know that to be true.

Feral Skeleton

19/11/2010I'm amazed how the Coalition supporters on this blog haven't come out to say how great it was that the bosses were spying on their workers in Victoria at the Wonthaggi Desalination Plant construction site. I mean, that's what WorkChoices was all about, intimidating the Unions into aquiescance/irrelevance. Breaking them on the wheel and under the heel. Though not getting the bosses' own silken slippers dirty when the slipper needed to be sunk into the poor worker just trying to get a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. Instead employing Scab-bags and scumbags to do their dirty work for them. For a pretty price. They truly are the lowest of the low. And the re-emergence of Peter Reith and John Howard recently, only serves to reinforce the bullet the country dodged recently when we blessedly did not end up with, Tony Abbott PM. As it is not too hard to imagine that he would have supported the actions of Thiess in spying on their workers covertly. Good on The Australian for exposing the lowlifes. However I suspect they had hoped that there would have been some damaging connection to the Brumby government, just before the Vic. State poll, that might have been the ultimate payoff they were counting on.

CALLIGULA

19/11/2010Well said AA but there remains the counter to Abbotts pugilistic posture. No purpose whatsoever whingeing about it. He knows it works and Jooles doesn’t seem able to counter it. She could either muster up some means of making him look foolish which should be easy in the grand scheme. But she doesn’t seem able to do that. You may note that I’ve become rather impatient lately with people who profess intelligence without actually being able to prove it? Well, Jooles hasn’t either. She has no ‘daddy’ who can shout down strident abuse for her – which makes me concerned that she’s next for the chop. I am suggesting she needs to get moving according to her election statements. The problem being that labor is no longer labor and she belongs to a faction refusing socialist/ reformist interest. Surely you can see that the opposition is capitalizing on that and the apathy of the electorate? Note I’m keeping comments short and concepts simple this time.

CALLIGULA

19/11/2010Give me a break please FS What do I have to say to make you understand that I do not want another coup in our much compromised parliament? Kindly go back to jabbing those others of the right wing in their ribs. I’ve reduced your paper to simple terms – the classic class struggle. Any pinko who’d disagree with that’d have to be bonkers. Want to fess up?

CALLIGULA

19/11/2010FS – “the Brumby government, just before the Vic.” Hitting below the belt - what? Calling the illustrious Victorian legislature a “Brumby Government”. Shame! Or am I being as silly now - as you’ve been treating those with a different viewpoint?

lyn

19/11/2010Hi Ad and Everybody, http://sundaymorningtv.posterous.com/ Sunday morning TV 21 Nov - a guide to Sunday morning's political and business interviews Full program listing available at: http://sundaymorningtv.posterous.com/ Ch10's Meet the Press has wrapped up for season 2010,scheduled return 6 Feb 2011 8:30am Sky News 601 Australian Agenda On Sky News Australian Agenda this week Opposition Senate Leader Sen Eric Abetz and Finance Minister Sen Penny Wong are interviewed by Peter Van Onselen and a panel headed by The Australian’s Editor at Large Paul Kelly. 8:35am Ch7 Weekend Sunrise - The Riley Diary Political editor Mark Riley takes a look at the comings and goings of the second last week of Parliament for 2010 where; pollies get more than a cracker - a pay rise no less, Joe (Blow) Hockey asks Mr speaker for a break from Parliament House leaf blowers, and Parliament honours Kings and Queens - following the engagement of the heir to British throne and the gay marriage debate. 8:38am Ch9 Today on Sunday - Laurie Oakes interview Laurie Oakes talks to Federal Treasurer Wayne Swan. 9:00am ABC1 Insiders On Insiders this week: Barrie Cassidy interviews the Shadow Treasurer Joe Hockey. On the panel: the Herald Sun’s Andrew Bolt, the Financial Review’s Brian Toohey and the Sydney Morning Herald’s Phil Coorey. And Mike Bowers talks pictures with Herald Sun cartoonist, Mark Knight. 10:00am ABC1 Inside Business & on ABC News 24 @ 5.30pm This week on Inside Business a fascinating feature interview with Google’s CFO Paul Pichette, plus a look at AMP’s bid for AXA AP and whether it can become the so-called 5th pillar in Australian banking, and an interview with IGA’s Andrew Bray about why he is outraged by the ACCC’s decision to block Metcash’s bid for Franklins. Also look at private childcare two years on from the ABC Learning collapse. And an update of the latest news from the markets and Alan Kohler’s incisive commentary.

Jason

19/11/2010FS, Poll was done, me being the youngest of the oldies at 43, of which there are 15 and only 10 of the young! "Ms Deb" won! that said now we need the women of Labor calender, forthwith tastefully done of course! But in the interest of fairness old Bronny or sophie could be used as props in some way!

TalkTurkey

20/11/2010“November 19. 2010 08:46 PM Talk Turkey, Re Flag: I remember when it was all the rage there for a while to design new flags(just before Howard got in and crushed the whole evanescent effervescence about booting the Butcher's apron off the corner of the flag with his heel), and still feel that one I saw then would be nice. It used the colours of the Aboriginal flag and the Southern Cross. I think there may have been a kangaroo in there too. I myself would prefer to see the Kangaroo and the Emu, such as in the National Crest, maybe on the Right, with the Southern Cross on the Left side, both in White on a background of Red,Yellow and Black stripes. Feral Skeleton” Professor Skeleton, Big 10-4 on that. Matter of fact, one of my ‘iconic’ designs – which they truly are in the strictest sense too – (and it’s one of 2 vying in my mind as my eventual gravatar when my eventual gravatar eventually eventuates) – is my respectful version of our Coat of Arms, with the animals reversed so the Roo is on the right and the Emu on the left, the two animals kissing, or at least, touching mandibular extremities – and straddling the distant Uluru, such that those 3 shapes enclose a negative space of sky, in shape, note, like a very credible OZ map, with the Southern Cross and the Pointers Alpha and Beta Centauri above them in the darkling sky. The verse that describes them goes: It’s like looking through a open window, at an Aussie scene: Kangaroo and Emu, with great Uluru between; Behind them is the darkling sky, with the Pointers and the Cross – And the way they stand, they make the land Australia the boss! (“Boss” here is used in its correct and original sense BTW, meaning the central feature of a logo. Being as you’re our resident professor, Professor, you’d know that of course, but for such as jj, judging by her recent post, I thought I’d better “please explain?”) It’s very pretty, I call it All Yous (EmU, KangarOO, UlUrU see) and in my BIG book of verse, Breeze in the Blue~Gums (20,000+ words!), the animals of Australia choose it as their Faunal Flag in their fight to save native species from extinction. It hasn’t all the colours you mention Professor, but as I said before, the Kangaroo, and Emu and Uluru for that matter, not to mention the stars, pre-date humanity itself, so it’s fair to All Yous. You’ll be able to see it soon, when I do defrock myself by revealing my website URL. I’m not quite ready to do that yet. Thanks for yous what have chanced your hand at guessing my gender . . . any more? Yous ain’t got a clue, anyway, that’s already crystal. And Lyn, right or wrong, you couldn’t raise my ire if you tried. Bring on the Republic! Viva! Barry Jones for President! Viva! Venceremos!

TalkTurkey

20/11/2010"aN open window", obviously. Damn. See, Patois? We all make typos.

Feral Skeleton

20/11/2010Is 'Coffee Dude' for real? If not, what an exquisite piece of coincidence for an internettal can of Spam. :)

lyn

20/11/2010Hi Feral Hillbilly I think they really sell coffee.

Feral Skeleton

20/11/2010Talk Turkey, The Emu and the Kangaroo side-on to Uluru has potential. Just thinking about it, the colour palette is going to be a hard one to get agreement on. Australia has so many different ones. Green and Yellow; Red, White & Blue; Red, Black and Yellow. Hmmm. Red and Yellow appear twice, so maybe just those two? No, on second thoughts I'd add Blue because we have so much water around our magnificent isle. So, Red, Yellow, Blue horizontal stripes; stars, including the Southern Cross, Alpha and Beta Centauri; with the Kangaroo and Emu standing protectively on either side of Uluru. There! That should do it. :)

Feral Skeleton

20/11/2010lyn, I think they do a fine line in Spam, as well. :)

lyn

20/11/2010[b]TODAY'S LINKS[/b] [i]The Adventures Of Barry O’Frenzy, Ashghebranious, Ash's Machiavellian Bloggery[/i]Remember how he wanted to stop party funding from coming from big business and stuff? He looked so noble did he not? NOT!!! http://ashghebranious.wordpress.com:80/2010/11/19/the-adventures-of-barry-ofrenzy/ [i]The 2010 Charles Todd Memorial Oration, Mike Quigley, CEO,NBN,Webdiary[/i] But here I am, the CEO of the company charged with building the NBN, which as we all know has become rather a hot political issue. So, I was left with the question, what to do? http://webdiary.com.au/cms/?q=node/3105 [i]Telling porkies about the banks, Elvis Jarnecic, ABC[/i] The Australian has once again demonstrated that it is incapable of impartial reporting. This is precisely why we need a public broadcaster like the ABC. http://www.abc.net.au:80/unleashed/41304.html?WT.mc_id=newsmail [i]Turnbull rails against parliamentary NBN blockage,Renai LeMay,Delimeter[/i] Shadow Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull has accused several of the independents and Greens MP Adam Bandt of irresponsibility for their decision not to support his private member’s bill designed to increase transparency http://delimiter.com.au/2010/11/19/turnbull-rails-against-parliamentary-nbn-blockage/ [i]NBN: a turning point Gary Sauer-Thompson , Public opinion[/i] It was, in effect, the last stand of the opposition in trying to prevent the rollout of the most expensive infrastructure project in Australia's history – and they knew it... http://www.sauer-thompson.com/ [i]Libs to re-introduce Turnbull bill in Senate, Ry Crozier, ITNews[/i] The Federal Government faces a hostile Senate to pass its Telstra split bill after openly flouting an order to produce documents and with Liberal Senators indicating they will demand amendments and stall debate ahead of a planned vote. http://www.itnews.com.au/News/239033,libs-to-re-introduce-turnbull-bill-in-senate.aspx [i]The Coalition’s hypocritical line on transparency, Bernard Keane, Crikey[/i] Watching the opposition blow hard on the NBN business plan yesterday was belly-laugh stuff. There’s regular political hypocrisy and then there’s the extra virgin, http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/11/19/when-it-comes-to-releasing-reports-the-coalition-are-hardcore-hypocrites/ [i]The (Wo)Man Behind The Curtain, Neil Cook, the Bannerman[/i] Under the current leadership of Tony Abbott, conservatism in Australia will never succeed to political power. The dangers for Australian society are too evident, http://www.waddayano.org/blog/2010/11/the_woman_behind_the_curtain.php#more [i]NAIRU mantra prevents good macroeconomic policy, Billy Blog[/i] Today I have been working with various datasets (labour costs, long-term unemployment) and this blog provides some interesting aspects of what is going on at present. http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=12441#more-12441 [i]Paul Howes is starting out on a journey, The Drummer Press[/i] Paul Howes has bravely entered the new-old media argument with blog post at the Daily Tele. He is a remarkably courageous man. http://dummerpress.wordpress.com/ [i]Julia Gillard attacked by -- Joe de Bruyn -- No Gay Marriage-No abortion-What's next, Stephen Read, Stroke of Luck[/i] Indoctrinated blind faith is not my kind of faith. As someone who has spent quite some time in a wheelchair http://www.goodluckstroke.com/ [i]Euroconfusion - Crooked Timber, John Quiggin[/i] A country outside the eurozone and without the “exorbitant privilege” of being able to sell lots of debt denominated in home currency has three options when it runs into debt trouble: default, depreciation and dependency. http://johnquiggin.com/ [i]Social Scapegoat gets nominated for a Wonkley [/i] By some freak twist of nature, Social Scapegoat has been nominated for a Wonkley Award, in the category of “Best Amateur Political Blog”. http://socialscapegoat.com/social-scapegoat-gets-nominated-for-a-wonkley/#comments [i]Behind the news on private health insurance premiums, Melissa Sweet, Croakey[/i] The private health insurance sector has begun its annual process of negotiating premium increases with the federal government. http://blogs.crikey.com.au/croakey/2010/11/19/behind-the-news-on-private-health-insurance-premiums/#more-3564 [i]Equal pay sacrificed for the sake of the budget surplus, Eva Cox,Crikey[/i] The government has undermined its election commitment to support the ASU equal pay case to Fair Work Australia http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/11/19/equal-pay-sacrificed-for-the-sake-of-the-budget-surplus/

Feral Skeleton

20/11/2010Jason, Labor could do a 'Women of Labor' Calender with consumate ease. Especially if we are allowed to take in State politicians. NSW can contribute Kristina Kenneally in her bike shorts. :) As for Sophie, Bronny, and Julie, I notice they are never photographed together. Maybe that's because the Libs know that would send their vote plummetting!

Ad astra reply

20/11/2010LYN'S DAILY LINKS updated: http://www.thepoliticalsword.com/page/Lyns-Daily-Links.aspx

Ad astra reply

20/11/2010CALLIGULA If you have seen this week’s QT or read the transcript of it and still believe Julia Gillard ‘doesn’t seem to be able to counter’ Tony Abbott’s pugilism, then enjoy that illusion so long as it gives you comfort. You say Julia has not been able to ‘prove’ her intelligence, well not to you anyway. Others here can recognize it readily. What’s missing in your assessment? Please tell us what she has to do to ‘prove’ herself to CALLIGULA.

jj

20/11/2010AA, I dont know which question time you were watching? The argument from Malcolm Turbull and Tony Abbott i thought was pretty simple. How can you expect a parliament to be able to vote on a piece of legislation pretty well giving the go-ahead to the NBN when they dont have information as important as a business plan at their disposal (not the governments response to the implementation study for that matter). It was Julia Gillard spluttering out the slogans, "Two year old", "wrecker", "3 word slogans" etc etc. Jason, I did read the crikey article. But can you answer me this question: you said, " I think Conroy said wtte he'll release it when he's good and ready not because Abbott wants it! " and i am saying how can you argue that the government hasnt read it and prepared a response to it when the government is offering confidential briefings early next week on the plan? As for what Keane said about the parliament just re-convening, well if the government has the information now, and is willing to give it to the independents, why shouldnt the public get a look at it too. I thought Julia was all about "letting the sun shine in", and providing, "the most open and transparent government in Australia's history", obviously not! And if you are going to argue Howard did it so what is so wrong about Gillard doing it, than you are really showing your stupidity. Xenophon and Oakeshott were not a part of that government and they are saying that they will not pass the legislation until the business plan is released in its entirety without Labor confidentiality strings attached.

Ad astra reply

20/11/2010jj If three word slogans work for Tony Abbott, maybe they will work for Julia too. What do you think? Folks I'm getting on the road now and will not be back at my computer until this evening.

jj

20/11/2010They probably will. But at least acknowledge that she does it just as much as he does it.

lyn

20/11/2010Good Morning Talk Turkey "And Lyn, right or wrong, you couldn’t raise my ire if you tried". I really am so pleased, I couldn't stand it if I raised your ire or irked you Talk Turkey, your my friend. You know, Bruce sounds like a good name for you, matches your opinion. Must tell you those kangaroos jumping around on your site are peaceful to watch. Did you notice the bootstrappers have decided to say that Julia Gillard uses three word slogans too, just because she quoted Abbott in Question Time, pathetic aren't they, that's where JJ got her information, the Murdoch bootstappers.

Feral Skeleton

20/11/2010jj, Nice of you to throw a smelly red herring into the blog. Just when I conclusively prove that the Coalition are full of BS, and why., you ignore the whole matter and instead try and take us off on a frolic about the NBN and 3 Word Slogans. Nice try, but I'm not falling for it. You are a troll, pure and simple. And I do not feed the trolls. Enjoy trying to reel everyone else in though. This particular fish is not going to rise to your bait. I don't have to, however, if you wish to engage in debate on the topic at hand(which I know you won't because you have no answer to the truth), then feel free. To which I will just add this: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/strike-up-the-broadband-20101119-180u1.html

Feral Skeleton

20/11/2010Calligula, Same goes double for you. I wrote you and your misogynistic ramblings off last week. Keep posting your drivel if you want to, just don't expect a response from me, you don't deserve one. Btw, this is not an example of a closed mind to an opposing point of view, I am merely not going to waste my time with abusive trolls.

jj

20/11/2010Feral Skeleton, You have obviously convinced yourself that you are right, but that does not go for the rest of us. Seeing as Jason is not here, can you answer my question about the NBN: if the government has nothing to hide, then what wont they release the business pan?

Feral Skeleton

20/11/2010jj, The government has nothing to hide. It will release the NBN Business Plan when it is good and ready. As Howard did, that is, when he released a report or business plan at all. They do not rise to Coalition bait, just as I will not rise to yours. Now, answer my question. Why does the Coalition conveniently forget this? In fact, why did they never release a Business Plan for the grossly uneconomic Nauru Asylum Seeker Detention Gulag?

Jason

20/11/2010jj, I'm back since Abbott gave turnbull his brief to destroy the NBN, and hence no matter what the business plan says I fail to see why you and the coalition are so interested! It will be according to you a disaster! And if the key independants are happy with the time table who cares what the opposition thinks? We will get on with a one word slogan "Doing"

rabidnorm

20/11/2010Feral Skeleton @10.07 AM & @10.11 AM Very well said O Boney One. The trolls are indeed trolling. Forget the saucer of milk - expect a soup bowl of 90 Proof on the back landing. I take no responsibility for the riff-raff likely to gather there for the free grog though. I'm glad Albert struck a chord and thanks to others for your responses. This will be my last unsolicited remark on your Gravatar - a reminder that it follows your e-mail address and not your username. I confess to a preference for Hillbilly over Feral. As experimental proof, this post should see rabidnorm commandeering my rose. T-shirt slogan. Photo of Tony Abbott's lips with a lascivious leer. Stop The Slogans

D Mick Weir

20/11/2010[b]STOP THE SLOGANS[/b] Good one NK

Acerbic Conehead

20/11/2010FS, as you astutely point out, the Coalition’s economic approach owes more to the theories of 19th century David Ricardo than JM Keynes or even any more recent political economists. However, Tones seems happy living in the past and making it his yardstick for today. He is dreaming of the time when he will occupy the Treasury Benches and can live off the fat of the land. In such vein, he was overheard singing in the shower his version of the old Lovin Spoonful number, “Daydream”. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GNg5nyeeD4&feature=related :- ) What a day for a daydream What a day for a daydreamin' posh And I'm lost in a daydream Dreamin' 'bout my bundle of dosh :- ) And even if time ain't really on my side Those commo watermelon Greens will take over next July Maybe the Indos will take a walk in the sun And make Jooles as quiet as Parliament’s new-mown lawn :- ) I've been having a sweet dream I been dreaming since I woke up today It's starring me and my mortgage When I’m in power, I’m gonna blow it all away :- ) But even if time is passing me by a lot For the welfare of the country, I couldn’t give a jot Tomorrow I'll just get up and spew my bile ‘bout Labor’s sovereign debt and protecting my pile :- ) And you can be sure that I’ll be feeling right My daydream will last long into the night Just like Fawlty, don’t mention the war’s death-toll Or even worse, bring up Joe’s great big black hole :- ) What a day for a daydream Custom made for a daydreaming posh And I'm lost in a daydream Dreaming 'bout my bundle of dosh

Feral Skeleton

20/11/2010Anyone else willing to take the test? http://www.politicalcompass.org/test Nelson Mandela and I are like brother and sister. :) Um, except I'm white and a little, old lady Australian who has never amounted a hill o'beans, and he's a black South African political icon. :)

Feral Skeleton

20/11/2010AcerbicC, What I've never been able to figure out is how anyone like Tony Abbott, who has been cossetted by the Liberal Party and provided with job after job, either in politician's offices, on friendly rags, or as a politician, also, who has a wife that supposedly owns a couple of Child Care Centres which were showered with dosh during the Howard years, be so bad at managing his own family budget that he needed to take out a 2nd Mortgage when he became an Opposition MP???

Acerbic Conehead

20/11/2010AA, I see you mentioned yesterday the proclivity of the Federal Opposition to talk in three-word slogans. So, I’ve taken the liberty of posting a drinking song, based on this model. And, to make it easier, you’re allowed to add three-syllable expressions as well as three-letter ones. So, when you are in the pub tonight, take the following check-list and if any of your mates can’t repeat any, or make up their own, they have to drink three (nb very important symbol) fingers. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a heavy session, so your mates can drink from piss-weak shandy to whatever Kev was on that fateful night at the Scores Club. So, whatever your poison, enjoy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WIW2AB7z0Q&feature=related :- ) Like a rolling stone Like the FBI And the CIA And the BBC :- ) BB King Doris Day Matt Busby :- ) Back alley bitch Slag and bag Grow the pie Godwin Grech :- ) Stop the boats My boatphone Plump ear-lobes Net debt gross :- ) Stop the waste 9-point plan Real Action Weathervane :- ) Stop the debt Big black hole Skimpy togs Big new tax :- ) Gospel truth Battlelines NBN People skills :- ) Bastardry No tech head Death-like stare GST :- ) WorkChoices Hot-pink batts GayBC Fish-net tights :- ) Dig it, dig it, dig it...

Acerbic Conehead

20/11/2010FS, "three-letter ones' in the intro to my last post should have read, "three-word ones". And in regard to your query as to how someone like Tony Abbott can wish to lead a country with a dynamic, trillion-dollar economy, and still not seem to have a handle on his own personal finances, I agree: it beggars belief. However, to me, it is even more amazing how he has survived all the political catasprophies he has brought upon himself. The only explanation I can give is that he is a poster-boy of the media, and they will promote him at any cost. I hate to be crude, but the expression, "turd-polishing", comes to mind.

2353

20/11/2010[quote]T-shirt slogan. Photo of Tony Abbott's lips with a lascivious leer. Stop The Slogans[/quote] I'd buy one! (sorry, that's another 3 word slogan :) )

lyn

20/11/2010Acerbic Conehead Thankyou for giving us 2 doses of enjoyment today, our talent on "The Political Sword" is second to none. Your pieces are working better than vitamin B for me. [quote][i]but the expression, "turd-polishing", comes to mind:[/i][/quote] sums up the reason nicely.

TalkTurkey

20/11/2010"November 20. 2010 09:29 AM Good Morning Talk Turkey "And Lyn, right or wrong, you couldn’t raise my ire if you tried". I really am so pleased, I couldn't stand it if I raised your ire or irked you Talk Turkey, your my friend. You know, Bruce sounds like a good name for you, matches your opinion. Must tell you those kangaroos jumping around on your site are peaceful to watch. . . . Lyn" Lyn, Love! You looked right up me site! Dinya! Little sneak took a peek. I THOUGHT so. I thought I musta given a hint that YOU picked up on about my site most likely, somewhere, 'cos of how I was pretty sure YOU knew ever since you (it WAS you, wasn't it?) said I'd given away more hints than I knew . . . and I know that somewhere in The Sword's display of archived stuff there was at least one of my tessellations . . . (which things I LOVE, and I hope Swordsfolk do too. Including jj and CALLIGULA, dunno about Limpy. Yeah hell, him too, might unsadden his life a bit.) BTW NormanK reckoned me Egglayer, Prof.Skeleton said femme fatale (ooh la la!) and AAAd aaastra took a punt I was f too - though he was, shall we say politely, equivocal? Nah dammit, impolitely, he left a great funk hole, he covered his arse like a trusty guerilla. Thanks, 'on you all. It's been fun, (but those Girls started it, true!) I was finishing the charade today anyway, especially decided by HFS's/my posts about Aussie Flags. I'd written a bit pome but not finished it. I'll post it anyway. I would LOVE all yous to go and look at All Yous on my website, so I'll post a link enfin.* Why the sorta silly game? - Well I never meant it to happen, but when those Girls started to conjecture . . . and I realized that in all that time I hadn't said ANYTHING SEXIST that could be used EVER against me, (Hey-hey!) and that it was all to the good that it didn't matter a hoot - or maybe just a hoot? - on TPS, then it seemed to me fun and a worthwhile social trip to follow for a little while. Because it really proves that the lovely Lefty people on and around this blogsite, and those like it no doubt, have pretty-well freed themselves of important gender-based prejudices, I think that's grand. Australia is doing well that-wise at least. Here's the Unfinished Pome, satirizing some of 'Lewis Carroll''s The Walrus and the Carpenter from Through The looking Glass. (One day I'll write something original!) TalkTurkey and the Skeleton “The time has come,” said Skeleton, “To tell us all your sex:* There’s nothing we can tell it from By reading on your texts! AndOur Sword’s no place to sell it on, If that’s what you expects!” “Hey, wait a bit” TalkTurkey cried, “Before we come to that! What sex you ask? Well you decide! Old codger, or old bat? You will not dent my Ranga pride I guarantee you that!” The Swordsfolk boggled, all agog: Is TT He or She? Egg-Layer or a Gobbler? Dog! Can’t tell ’cos we can’t see . . . Might be bisexual on our blog? Or neither – Could that be? A photo, or some history, Is what we chiefly need: To solve TalkTurkey’s mystery; Can’t tell from what we read! (And so it went with this story, Till Swordsfolk all got peeed. Off.) Some few of them then took their punts: Was TT pink or blue? Telling gender from the front’s An easy thing to do, But without recourse to cunning stunts They didn’t have a clue! That's where I got to Lyn. You DID recourse to cunning stunts, Dinya! Dinya! Maybe I'll finish it proper one day. Right now I will just say the very last bits I had as to how it would end - but now SPOILED by Peeping Lyn, no really truly Lyn I'm vastly amused and delighted, thank you for looking up me site, glad someone did, you most of all. It was meant to go, like, Da-da-da-dah Da-da-da-dee Da-da-da-dah da-dum! Da-dah Da-dah Da-da dee Da-dah dah dah dah dum It's time to end the joke . . . I'm a bloke. My name is Bruce, (Lyn got me), I'm very ordinary, a bit ornery, I like writing rhyming verse, seriously anti-Abbot etc, I love the (NON-sexual!) intercourse on this site, and Oh yeah, *it's NOT TRUE that HFS asked me for my sex! I tole you all before, I'm a Liar Bird but not a bloody Turkey. I just gobble. Please folks, be visitors to my weird but harmless website www.ozzigami.com.au or just google ozzigami, which refers to my unique papercraft technique and educational geometrical papercraft using both layers of LASER-surfaced peel-&-stick material. Most of the links at the top work, some don't, but do please check out my Tessellations, my little bit of verse (My sweet fanciful poem Klokan the Blue Kangaroo, seen on my site, is only 4 or 5 pages, Breeze in the Blue~Gums, which isn't, is over 50! and while you're there, DO look at All Yous, and Floral Emblems of Australia with singable mnemonic verse (to Click Go The Shears) to accompany it. Which design do yous Swordsfolks reckon I oughter have as my eventual gravatar? All Yous or Floral Emblems? Oh yes and Lyn, thanks for being relaxed by my *u*n*i*q*u*e Kangaroo tesselANIMation Quantum Leap. Yes it's sort of hypnotic eh! Highly recommended for stress. In the words of a certain Great Statesman: What Do You Think? BTW You will be pleased to realized that in over 12 years I've never made a penny from my site. But I still like it. They call me Bruce! http://www.ozzigami.com.au/

Feral Skeleton

20/11/2010Talk Turkey, My Brush Turkey in the backyard has just been rechristened, 'Bruce', in your honour. :) He was called 'Spot' because he had one white feather on his black back, but, as I had 'Kevin the Kookaburra', after Kevin Rudd, I don't mind at all having Bruce the Bush Turkey as well. He has two girlfriends by the way. :) Oh well, it just goes to show you should never trust my judgement. I must tell you now, and I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but I was almost going to say that you were neither male, nor female, but a Tranny! Don't worry, a large part of my life, and my late husband's was spent around the Cross and Bondi, before they became hives of Trendiedom and Underbelly-era True Crime. All the rogues were loveable, as long as you kept on their right side. :C

jj

20/11/2010Jason, My point is that three independents have already said that they are unhappy with the timetable, and that they do not believe they should be restricted by confidentiality agreements if they do see the plan in briefings offered by the government. Anyway, if the government can offer the info to the independents than why cant the Australian public see it as well. As for the little quib about the Coalition's failure for a business plan for Nauru, last time i checked the processing of Asylum seekers was not a business, you may think it should be treated in that way, and ill leave you to your dark thoughts.

Feral Skeleton

20/11/2010jj, Can't give up your addiction to trolling. This is not a discussion about the NBN. Or Asylum Seekers. It IS about the Coalition's lies about 'Debt and Deficit'. Got a contribution to make about that?

jj

20/11/2010Feral, You have not only been commenting about the whole debt and deficit thing either; and what you said about asylum seekers was just absurd. Answer my question and i will move on: If it is ok to brief the independents about the business plan, than why is it not ok for the rest of Australia to see it as well?

lyn

20/11/2010Hi Talk Turkey Well! that was an absolutely amazing little game you thought up for our blog, an extremely nice deviation, in other words, leave the beaten track for a change. I have to say the Abbott look, the structure, the ego, the swagger, the slogans, the pugilism, the nastiness, his envy of Julia Gillard for being PM, etched on his face, the desperation, all this takes it's toll on me and my quest to witness seeing him feel humblism, in defeat sometime in the future. Talk Turkey when you first came along to TPS I thought you were a spam, but straight away decided no, this Turkey is too clever, too smart, too nice. You see we on TPS, before Ad gave us a new blog, were tormented and inundated with spam, we were too afraid to click on them, because they tack nasty little programs on peoples registry. Yes it was me that said I had detected quite a few clues in your writings, but it was nothing much, just a few phrases were suspect about 100. No what an honour for you Hillbilly Feral has named her bush turkey after you in her backyard, an you get to have Kevin the Kookaburra for your best friend, how good is that. Your tesselANIMation Quantum Leap is amazingly clever, as I said very relaxing, watching the yellow kangaroo.

CALLIGULA

20/11/2010AA, you said - “CALLIGULA If you have seen this week’s QT or read the transcript of it and still believe Julia Gillard ‘doesn’t seem to be able to counter’ Tony Abbott’s pugilism, then enjoy that illusion so long as it gives you comfort.” My reply – Perhaps the same news doesn’t reach us in regional Qld as elsewhere. These days I refuse to watch the idiot box and while our regional paper isn’t Murdoch – it’s even worse. I hear most political news on ABC National but am not impressed by their limited coverage nor the standards of accountability/disclosure of our governments. I have repeatedly mentioned that I personally neither wish the present parliament to be dissolved nor would I expect Abbott/ conservatives would act in my family’s interest were they to achieve a majority. If I need to discover what is happening in parliament I make use of the net/hansard/what the Senate committees are up to. I have no illusions and gain no comfort whatsoever from the way our limited democracy is becoming increasingly subject to carefully orchestrated opacity. I am fairly confident that the PM, if asked by a trusted friend, would admit to the thankless situation all ‘leaders’ face – that of ‘losing credibility’ with the masses after mistakenly uttering a few badly chosen words. Would you deny that or the fact often declaimed that the obfuscatory games played, especially in QT, have completely ‘dumbed down’ the whole show. AA, again - ”You say Julia has not been able to ‘prove’ her intelligence, well not to you anyway. Others here can recognize it readily.” My reply - http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/mp/8349882/labor-going-wrong-way-on-gay-laws-union/2/ Seems that the word ‘prove’ had some flummoxed – try ‘ably demonstrate’. It might confuse that further if I asked you to accept parliament as essentially a court requiring evidence based elements of procedure. Would you disagree that some parliamentarians are a bit miffed lately about being denied a copy of the NBN documentation before the recess? Anyway, a myriad of things like that might easily escape the notice of people who enjoy the comfort of the illusory, blind faith, approach to politics. They don’t escape mine. AA, again - “ What’s missing in your assessment? Please tell us what she has to do to ‘prove’ herself to CALLIGULA.” My reply – What’s missing is the lack of movement about the vaunted reforms. There are many regional issues that are being stonewalled and I have grave concerns about the conservatives plagiarising elements of old labor policy. To put that plainly I can see what they’re up to – as can most everyone I know out there in the real world. (Yes I know FS. I live in a vacuum. Said it for you.) Which begs the question. So what does the PM need do to ably demonstrate the ability of her team to Australia? Easy. Survive the next three years. Meanwhile let the conservatives get back to their traditional gravy-train in the Australian states so that the electorate can once again be reminded what sort of pricks they are. In the meantime it would be nice if some of those promises were kept to the regions and a little attention given to bringing us up to standard as a modern democratic nation state including some tiny written reference to the rights of all citizens in a properly drafted constitution. What do I want? A bunch of honest parliamentarians - better education – esp. English comprehension - a pogrom on those who fraudulently flout false educational/professional accreditation; small, practical, things like that. But since I’m a realist let me just cite the famous words of Mr J. Bjelke Petersen – “Don’t you worry about that.”

NormanK

20/11/2010TPS Merchandising is pleased to announce the launch of our first T-shirt. We need to move 2.5 million of them to break even (intellectual copyright is a killer) so tell your friends. [IMG]http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/5737/stoptheslogansjpg.jpg[/IMG][/URL] Talk Turkey Thanks for pointing us to your site - it looks marvellous. I had a fifty percent chance of guessing your gender. Oh well.

Senexx

20/11/2010Talk Turkey, you need to get more at the root of Senex than conventional meanings. Feral Skeleton, it is a school of thought I follow closely - that and it is the only one that makes sense.

CALLIGULA

20/11/2010Dear Senex, I was wondering whether you might take over my job for a few days? After all, you’ve got the clobber for it. Mind you, you’d have to dye your head red and give the plebs their bread and circus stuff. Anyway – just a thought while I nip over to New Caledonia for a few days while I help with their push. Thanx in advance and TaaTaa ‘til tiffin ‘n titlarks tongues ‘pon my return. PS Bucko, I do believe that you and a few others should really fess up to the TPS gang that you are using them for the ‘click on’ advancement of your commercial webpage. http://modernmoney.wordpress.com/about/ I notice that TT’s doing the same. Not quite kosher even for such a noble roman – What!

XCALLIGULA

20/11/2010FS had to do something with a gun. The shooter had to do something stupid, destructive and counterproductive. The thing she missed was that the poor old duck had to clean up the mess anyway. By her very choice of that poor cartoon confection, I believe, reveals more about FS than it does about capitalists. Leastways it puts her on their level. In fact I’d go as far as to say that her Freudian desire to strike out at conflicting concepts within her own self (Id)might be causing the sort of hormonal imbalance she’d like to wish upon those she perceives as her opponents. Besides which she obviously pinched it off the net. Rowan Atkinson might have a special place for her in hell if she keeps that up! As for the text – what the hell is wrong with just mentioning once again – the eternal class struggle. Or considering that most of us are intrinsically greedy and impossibly lazy why not keep promoting class difference and hope like hell that some of us are born into wealthy families? Your turn AA; give ME an answer to the big ever-repeating question.

Feral Skeleton

20/11/2010jj, If you ask a question about something that has nothing to do with the blog topic, I don't have to do anything in order to satisfy your urge to be fed. I don't feed the trolls.

TalkTurkey

20/11/2010Senex Just means old. Has for 2000+ years. Latin, y'know. Adjective. Senescence (noun, English) is the state of advancing oldness, don'cha know, old man. It is the root word of Senator, not vice versa, if that's your notion. But from "Talk Turkey, you need to get more at the root of Senex than conventional meanings", I am unable to gauge your meaning. Are you so unconventional that conventional meanings don't apply to you, old fellow? Sounds a bit like you've made it to being of the grumpy type. Maybe early in life even? Or maybe the self-important type, like, thinking of yourself as akin to a Senator? You got good company if so. We got a resident troll calls himself 'Sir' Ian Crisp! (I calls him Limpy.) CALLIGULA, CALLIGULA! Why you be so pigular? You like go for the jigular? It seem like your insigular! I said truly, I've never made a penny from my site, by clicking or any other means. I thought long ago maybe to cover my site costs by a few sales to happy clever teachers of happy clever kids, but that never happen, I still keep the site going cos I reckon my designs and verse and craft are good for people to contemplate. You may doubt my sincerity in wishing people what innocent delight I may cause them, but that says nothing more about me, a lot more about you. Sorry. But you do sound a bit Abborted. Surely a giant brain like yours could be better employed than hurling dopey semiarticulate incomprehensible insults at people other than those who have given you cause to hate them, (which I have not, though your Horse never did front up for a duel with Heliogabalus' Bull . . . we were all there, where were yous two?) I do enjoy insulting enemies, more than almost anything, but only when they've thrown first stones or when by their chosen company they define themselves. So what is eating away at you Calli? I even offer olive branches to jj and Limpy, but I fancy they have a quite decent respect for my jibes by now, nasty me, for things they have called down on themselves. BTW Seems to me like you pretty insistent people go to your own site, what dat all about eh? Ka-Ching?

Feral Skeleton

20/11/2010Calligula, It appears to have escaped your notice as you parroted the Opposition's line about releasing the NBN Business case, that the Communications Minister has not yet had a chance to take it to his own Cabinet. Yes, they may be able to convene a meeting of Cabinet earlier than Tuesday, the regular day for the Cabinet to meet, but I don't think that they can or should meet without the PM present. You may not have noticed, out there in the Queensland boonies, but Julia Gillard is in another country on the other side of the world this weekend, so, practically, it's impossible anyway. I guess the urgers, like you and jj and the Coalition, will just have to suck it up and wait for the normal procedures to take their course, after the PM gets back. In fact, she has stated emphatically that she doesn't dance to anyone else's tune, and will release it when she is good and ready. The Opposition merely want to deep six the NBN and are looking for any excuse to urge the Cross Bench Senators to vote against the structural separation of Telstra which is coming up this week, and if they could get their hands on the Business case for the NBN and cherry-pick and cast aspersions about it so as to sway the vote in their direction, they would. Seeing it after Tuesday's Cabinet Meeting will probably be what happens anyway, so I don't know why people are getting so exercised over it. We all know the NBN is going to be fantastic, so why all the carping, I don't know, especially as anyone who actually knows what they are talking about says that it will put Australia ahead of the curve for the rest of the 21st century. So, tell me, would you rather keep riding about in a chariot, or get a car? Same goes for the NBN, would you rather stay with the incremental improvements, inadequate as they are for your part of Australia, that the Coalition are offering you with their plan, or go with the future-proof NBN, FTTP? It's a no-brainer, really, and that's exactly what the damned Business Case will say, too. Btw, Senexx rarely comments here, so I don't think his interest is at all in the click-throughs. Unlike you, it seems. Pot calling the kettle black there, old boy.

Feral Skeleton

20/11/2010Calligula, Forgot to mention. I'm an anti-materialist, a Down Shifter. I've had money but am over accumulating wealth. I'm not at all into Class Warfare. People can have their money, just as long as they agree to share a fair amount with the less well-off citizens, via the tax and transfer system, of the homeland that allowed them to accumulate their wealth. They can keep the rest and do whatever the hell they want with it, within reason. Even flaunt it with other gormless individuals who love to flash it around ostentatiously.

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20/11/2010Folks After a long day with the family, I find my Next G is not working, so I'm using my iPad to sent this message. I'll try again in the morning.

Feral Skeleton

20/11/2010NormanK, Just like your 'Albert', but in reverse, a 'Joe': http://www.smh.com.au/national/hockey-leak-reveals-plan-to-embarrass-government-20101119-180z6.html

Lefty

20/11/2010"If you really want to get to tin tacks on why Hockey, et al. are wrong, Yeva Nersisyan explains it this way: 'They (debt hysterics), don't seem to understand the operational realities behind government spending and taxing. A sovereign government doesn't finance its spending in the way private sector entities, and this includes families, do. It spends by issuing IOUs/Bonds (document acknowledging debt). Hence, the arguments regarding crowding out effects, as well as this argument that governments will, of necessity, need to raise taxes in the future sometime to finance the deficit (Ricardian Equivalence), are all wrong.'" Exactly. The current public debate bears not the slightest resembalence to the actual operational realities of Australia's modern fiat monetary system. "Fiat": Latin = "let it be done" - and that's precisely what the thing we choose to call the Australian dollar is, an abstract concept created out of nowhere by the Australian (NOT state) government when it spends. Very significant implications arise from this fact, some of which are probably no longer avoidable. For instance, when our government chooses to run an ongoing budget surplus, this can only be supported for as long as the private sector in total is willing/able to go into deficit - running down private savings, liquidating assets and racking up private debt. The notion of returning the budget to ongoing surplus is historically abnormal and is only possible if we are all willing and able to get back into new heights of debt to income growth. Attempting to force a budget surplus will both fail and introduce a recessioanry bias into the economy. We the electorate have become condtioned over a relatively short period of time to believe that government budget surpluses are both normal and highly desirable but after the biggest private sector debt binge in history, it is only a matter of time before the actual reality of the situation (painfully) asserts itself.

jj

21/11/2010Feral, You really are a fool! Goolia has said that she wont be releasing the business case until sometime next month (it is as simple as that)...LET THE SUN SHINE IN! (what a lier she really is). As for the NBN being beautiful and wonderful and the best thing that has ever happened to Australia, well we havent done an analysis to be able to figure out whether the government owned monopoly is the best way to deliver our broadband goals...that is what the while oppositions argument is about. I know you must find it hard to conjure up your deep, thoughtful slogans and answers, but please just keep them to yourself. I will never call anyone a troll, no matter what the words other meaning is.

Feral Skeleton

21/11/2010jj, No, you'll never call someone a blog troll, which is a perfectly legitimate descriptor for blog contributors such as yourself, considering the way you behave, mouthing Coalition slogans as if they are the 'gospel truth'. However, you will impolitely refer to the Prime Minister of Australia as 'Goolia'. You.Are.A.Blog.Troll. And until you address the points we here have made, that is, the Howard government would have laughed in the Labor Party's face if they had got up on their hind legs and asked for a government report to be released before Cabinet had had a chance to consider it; and, if you had bothered to read any of lyn's links on the NBN you would have realised that the government only wish to own the NBN for 5 years after it has been completed. They will not be monopolistic owners in perpetuity, they have just realised that for such a large piece of infrastructure it is best if the government builds it as it will be done quicker than if a number of competing, financially-motivated entities try to do it. They will also be able to legally compel parity pricing in rural and urban areas, something that financially-motivated ISPs would never do. Finally, the Business Case for the NBN must be sound because the government would find a way not to have it released, as Howard regularly did if the conclusions didn't suit him, if it didn't back up the case for building it. No doubt, as soon as it IS released, and it says good things about the NBN, as a faithful servant of the Coalition's talking points, you'll just completely ignore the facts and move on to the next mouthful of garbage they want you to spout. Like.A.Good.Little.Blog.Troll. And, like a good little blog troll, you'll try and shoot the messengers, we here at TPS, with a mouthful of unsubstantiated abuse. Finally, as you appear to be pleading ignorance of what the definition of a Blog Troll is, let me enlighten you(you'll find it an eerily-familiar description): 'Who Let the Trolls Out? Jim Kukral at Revenews has an article that says the message board trolls have spread to the blogosphere. He identifies two different types of blog trolls. 1. Blog Commenter Troll - One who floats in and out of many different blogs and leaves anonymous or non-anonymous comments that fit the "troll" trademark code of, well, shame? 2. Blog Owner Troll - The blog owner troll is the top of the food chain in blog trolls. The blog owner troll of course owns a blog, and uses the blog to create "troll-like" blog entries, sparking conversation from other blog trolls, and occasionally luring an ignorant non blog-troll into his/her trap. Blog comment trolls are nothing new and have been around since comments on blogs existed. Webopedia offers the following definition of trolls which works well for blog comment trolls. (v.) (1) To deliberately post derogatory or inflammatory comments to a community forum, chat room, newsgroup and/or a blog in order to bait other users into responding. Blog comment trolls are a continual pest just like they continue to be on message boards. Google shows over 11,000 results for blog trolls. Trolls and spam are one reason some bloggers started moderating their comments. A few posts from bloggers angry about troll problems can be found here, here, here, here, here and here. Blog owner trolls may be a new type of troll but a blog that was always negative would probably eventually be ignored. Snarky and humorous blogs are different and can find an audience but only if they are well-written.'

lyn

21/11/2010Hi Feral Hillbilly, Some information in support of your excellent reply comments: [i]NBN Co letter on secrecy released , Michelle Gratten The Age.[/i] It says the plan contains ''highly sensitive and commercial-in-confidence'' information, that may be of commercial significance in the company's competitive procurement processes, including negotiations with Telstra. [b]''As well, the plan is based on a number of assumptions which are dependent upon on government decisions yet to be taken.''[/b]http://www.theage.com.au/national/nbn-co-letter-on-secrecy-released-20101119-1811r.html

Feral Skeleton

21/11/2010Lefty, Well said. :) I think you are correct about the fact that those of the nominal 'Left' have allowed themselves to become captives of the Debt and Deficit fetishists. As we can see all around the world at the moment, countries with supposedly massive 'Sovereign Debt' are being bailed out so that the wheels of consumerism can be kept turning, basically. In fact, the Irish government are quick to say that it is not them who has the debt problem, but their banks, who lent too much money out to fuel Private Debt during the 'Celtic Tiger' boom. Although, as I commented before, their 12.5% Corporate Tax was a bit reckless and should be raised to restore a bit of fiscal equilibrium across Nation SDtates. However, when the economic elephant in the room, China, continues to manipulate its currency, to continue to give them massive Trade Surpluses and other nations they are competing with, such as America, massive Trade Deficits and problems with unemployment as a result, then you can clearly see how artificial the whole construct of Deficit/Surplus is on a macro scale. Though, to listen to the 'blatherings' of Hockey and Co, plus their faithful blog trolls, you'd think that if Australia doesn't get back to Surplus ASAP then 'We'll all be roon'd!' Whereas, if we just look outside our borders for once we will see that even in those countries which are supposedly the most 'Debt and Deficit' encumbered, like Greece, life still goes on, just with a tiny bit more austerity, such as raising an overly-generous retirement age to something more in line with the rest of the world. Also, in Ireland and Iceland, bank-fuelled Private Debt binges have had to be reigned in. Which can only be a good thing. It's funny, really, when you think about it. These Uber Capitalists, come running to their governments, like good little communists, to bail them out with taxpayers' money when they massively stuff up. That is, they function on the principle of 'Socialising the losses but Privatising the profits'. I don't think that, at the end of the day, any of them would deny it. They just rely on well-fed little butterballs like Joe Hockey, in the political sphere, to be their 'Debt Hysteric' tools.

Feral Skeleton

21/11/2010lyn, Thank you. :) Honestly, these blog trolls never let the facts get in the way of a diversionary argument.

lyn

21/11/2010TODAY'S LINKS [i]Made you a Moron, Mr denmore, The Failed Estate[/i] robotic media coverage in the sense you could look at it with the sound turned down or flip the pages without reading the words and know exactly what was being said. http://thefailedestate.blogspot.com/ [i]Malcolm in Fantasy Land, David Havyatt, Anything Goes[/i] confusion between what has been delivered (a business plan) and what they want released (a business case). They are different. http://davidhavyatt.blogspot.com/ [i]"It's a shocker":Telstra Board faces shareholders, Delimiter[/i] The company’s share price is currently languishing around the $2.60 mark, close to its 52-week low of $2.55 and close to its all-time low since it was listed in 1997. http://delimiter.com.au/ [i]Choice bon mots from Joyce, Gus, Your Democracy[/i] best possible technology, he says, because of the physics of the fibre cable - it is almost infinitely upgradeable because it [b]transmits at the speed of light[/b]. http://yourdemocracy.net.au/drupal/node/11326 [i]Please bury the 'tough' interview in 7.30 report land, Trevor Cook[/i] but its over. Toughness too often just means rudeness, where the interviewer treats the prime minister (or some other public figure / victim) with smirking condescension. http://trevorcook.typepad.com/weblog/2010/11/please-bury-the-tough-interview-in-730-report-land.html [i]Death of the West: Creeping Sharia,Andy , Menzies House[/i] Are we to stand by and allow Islam to infect our system, destroy our culture, change our laws, create parallel legal systems and undermine our very ideological underpinnings just to make sure we save the religious freedom of Muslims http://www.menzieshouse.com.au/2010/11/death-of-the-west-creeping-sharia.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+MenziesHouse+%28Menzies+House%29 [i]Tony Abbott's missing moral core , Homepage Daily[/i] And it’s not about logic or coherence, but about thumping the table the loudest. Further it does not seem to be about some moral vision that he holds to, providing a consistent pattern of thought. http://www.homepagedaily.com/Pages/article11038-tony-abbotts-missing-moral-core.aspx [i]In America it's "online engagement", in Australia it's "Smear", Alex White[/i] David Rood and the editors of The Age have demonstrated that they don’t understand the “interwebbies” and what’s more this article underscores why readership of the paper is collapsing. http://alexwhite.org/2010/11/in-america-its-online-engagement-in-australia-its-smear/

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21/11/2010Folks The Next G connection to my computer is still not working, and so I will be out of action until my son in law gets me going again. I am sending this message via my iPad.

Feral Skeleton

21/11/2010lyn, Looking at that Grattan article, it's interesting to note that Climate Change is back on the parliamentary agenda next week. Goody! Watch the Opposition tie themselves up in knots trying to justify their antediluvian policy to address it. :) Dr Andrew Leigh will be leading the charge for the government from the backbench(the sooner he's on the frontbench with Greg Combet the better).

Senexx

21/11/2010Talk Turkey, it was also a term for Senators in Roman times. Again you didn't look at the meaning of words at the root. The word 'polite' which we take to mean civil discourse these days used to be a word that defined the actions of the 'upper class' and was frowned upon by the general public at the time. Just as the term Senex is used in classical literature and defined in Jungian archetypes for being wise old man, doddering old fool and sometimes an old man that falls in love with a young woman a Senex Amans, etc. BTW I'm Senexx with two x's. Caligula there is absolutely nothing commercial about the site. Slight correction, if there is I can't see it I block ads. Any ads on the site add value to those that operate the wordpress domain not myself. I would also add that the school of thought on MMT is so small most people would never have heard of it, so again rendering your points moot. And on other issues I'm not a big believer in the left/right paradigm.

Feral Skeleton

21/11/2010"Yeah, that's a line we used to use a lot." Joe Hockey on government claims of 'Commercial in Confidence' considerations wrt the NBN. Finally belled the cat on that little ruse that the Howard/Costello government used to use all.the.time. Problem with his saying that it is a similar ruse being used by the Gillard government now is that the NBN IS actually a Commercial enterprise, hence NBNCo., and, as such, it actually does have commercial contractual considerations front of mind atm, which need to be kept away from public view until negotiations have been concluded. Or, in the interests of transparency which the Opposition are all het up about conveniently now that they are in Opposition, maybe they would thus agree that ALL confidential commercial negotiations should now be made public on an ongoing basis?

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21/11/2010LYN'S DAILY LINKS updated: http://www.thepoliticalsword.com/page/Lyns-Daily-Links.aspx

Feral Skeleton

21/11/2010lyn, That was a lovely little blog from Trevor Cook that you found for us today. Thank you. :)

TalkTurkey

21/11/2010Senexxxxx Yes I actually knew all that. And when I said your gravatar doesn't look very senescent I was, can you believe, both joking and complimentary. But the ROOT is OLD. Senate and senators are derivative. Yes? I don't pick fights deliberately, but like the stock horses in The Man From Snowy River, I snuff a worthwhile battle with, not delight, but some relish, - (horseradish, e.g.). Calligula's Horse, whom Heliogabalus' Bull challenged recently, whimped out though, not a radish of a reply to the proffered carrot. Only a silly, and really quite offensive, belated accusation that I was trying to lure Swordsfolk into helping me turn a dollar by their clicks - as he also accused you. I see HFS came to your defence, good. But where there is turgidity, or Insufficient Information in people's overs in this medium, that can sound suspiciously (to me) like indecent accusations against decent behaviour in my Government, that I with all those millions helped elect, or unwarranted truculence as CALLIGULA seems to espouse, or a challenge to my own snow-white motives, yep, you bet, the ol' Turkey gonna gobble. I do have that streak, and I hope that Swordsfolk say Hear Hear to that, it is my firm conviction that not enough peckback happens in the WBL. (Wide Brown Land) But I always carry the ol’ olive branch in my other claw. Mixxed metaphor, yair. I did note the xx in your name first, but I had to go back to the previous thread to find your time of posting and on the way back I forgot. (Senescence!) I’ve given you five this time see, to make up. I always have been pretty careful like even with CALLIGULA who has a double LL and all UPPER CASE, dunno why, says he’s a commie if memory serves but I don’t understand why he wants to be UPPER CASE, like I don’t understand why Limpy Crisp wants to style himself Sir. ************************************************************************************* (to HFS from jj, but back to jj) so - jj “You really are a fool! Goolia has said that she wont be releasing the business case until sometime next month (it is as simple as that)...LET THE SUN SHINE IN! (what a lier she really is).” >jj don’t BS, ever’body know trolls live under bridges, only comin’ out into the sunlight to make trouble, but I do love how you help make us-all nontrolls unite and sure of our moral superiority over yous. Never leave us, I sharpen my beak and claws on you. Oh and ‘lier’ is LIAR as you should know, and as I do know, being as I am not a Turkey in real life but a LIAR BIRD.

lyn

21/11/2010Hi Hillbilly Thanks for that, yes I enjoyed that piece by Trevor Cook, his words ring very true. Did you see Barrie Cassidy call Joe Hockey out twice,for parroting 43 billion, over and over, when it's not true, Joe Hockey does not believe the report by the NBN CEO, it's 26 Billion, on that note Hockey repeated the 43 Billion again. You see, we know, facts are not important, lies are the priority of the Abbott Coalition. Remember 2007, who do you trust, well I ask, who do they trust, not Treasury, not Public Servants, not the Greens, not the Banks, definately not The Government, looks like not the Independents, not the Governer General, not The RBA, not Ken Henry, not Glenn Stephens, there must be more. [quote]Dr Andrew Leigh will be leading the charge for the government from the backbench(the sooner he's on the frontbench with Greg Combet the better[/quote]). Yes Hillbilly, I am going to enjoy next week, watching Abbott and Co twist and turn in frustrated, desperation, suffering irrelevance.

TalkTurkey

21/11/2010Lyn and HFS Thank you from the bottom of my old achey blokey heart, and Greetings to Bruce the Brush Turkey Prof Skeleton, I'm touched, but you probably suspected that. When Patois has written a little poem for me, (as I bet she will), I'll be right over the moon.

jj

21/11/2010Feral, Who would want to invest in a piece of infrastructure that will only be bringing in an annual return of 6%, and which has major risk levels (new technologies emerging, union wage claims go extreme, to sit at your computer connected to a wall is no longer wanted)? Your argument about it going to cabinet still doesnt explain anything. The government has already offered the independents briefings on the business plans for next week, and yet somehow the information they are going to show the independents is too sensitive for the rest of Australia to see! Talking about coming on here and spurting out the various Goolia, Duck, and back-stabber excuses and justification for their spineless, directionless, boring government; that is all you ever do!!! Why dont you go trawling back over everything you have said in the past week, and just observe how much of what you say comes straight out of the mouth of your fellow comrades in the Labor party (or whatever they are today...it really has become hard to tell). Why am i a troll and you a truthful, inclusive and sensible blogger? Is it because i question your unfounded idiotic stances on many issues? Is it because i am not a sheep that just jumps up and down on the spot clapping my hands and writing 'pretty' poems every time AA writes something? What is it with people like you and Kevin Rudd. It is either what you say is right, or you are an evil, stupid, troll. I have a right not to agree with what you say, just as you have a right to continue living in this world with nothing but a few little grains of sand scratching around in your head; wandering around grazing in the pastures of some of the most untruthful, biased, left wing blogs; pretending that your Shepard AA is somehow actually connected with the real world, leading you down the path of the ideologically pure, the sensible, the right. I hope you enjoy your Sunday.

Feral Skeleton

21/11/2010lyn, The Coalition, aka Tony Abbott, Joe Blow(hard), Scott Morrison and Barnaby Joyce, plus assorted bit-players, do not like the Defense Force heads, or the Military Prosecutor, Brig. Lyn McDade, because they believe in the rule of law, and not the utter lawlessness that was encouraged during the Howard/Bush era.

Feral Skeleton

21/11/2010Talk Turkey, 'Bruce' is having a quiet day sitting in the trees minding his mound. I have been reliably informed that the babies are due in early December. Of course, now you should feel obliged to affix to your internet self an avatar of the Australian native Turkey. :)

Jason

21/11/2010jj, I just don't get it! All you ever do when you come on here, no matter what the subject you bang on about the NBN and where is the CBA! Your local member Mr Windsor supports it Oakeshott supports it as do the rest that supports Labor, But no not you and not Abbott! What does the modern conservatives stand for? we know what you don't like as that's all we hear day after day, but never what you would do! Your party tries to sell the myth that as we are the party of business we are the superior economic managers wrong, the independents proved that when treasury looked at Abbott's election promises, your party will do and say whatever it takes to get back into office, they are vision less the NBN or any infrastructure as far as the libs are concerned is a waste of money we get the old "you've never had it so good"! If the majority of the public want the NBN who does Abbott think he is to say no he works for us!and maybe all side of the political spectrum should remember that, if we as a people want x its their job to provide not give excuses. jj here in Adelaide I live 15 km from the CBD and I can't even get ADSL2 so I'm just above dial up, Perhaps we can scrap the new war ships the joint strike fighter and other things and I can't remember hearing much about the CBA on those projects! Get over it! the NBN will be built CBA or not and your party will just look like the wires the NBN will replace old tired and out dated!

Feral Skeleton

21/11/2010I predict that Rupert Murdoch will not live as long as his mother. I saw him on the internet last week, and he looks sick! As in, 'losing his condition' sick. :o

Michael

21/11/2010Talk about 'white elephants', what else did that buffoon Hockey look like in his huge white shirt on "Insiders" this morning?? And then, the gormless smirk that accompanied his, "oh we used that line when we were in government" comment when Barrie Cassidy asked him about the current government wanting to keep items of commercial sensitivity in the NBN report under wraps until said sensitivity was made redundant by commercial deals being finalised. That is, standard business practice being adhered to. The Coalition's financial spokesmen, Hockey and Robb, AKA Fatty and Ratty, look and sound more and more ridiculous every time they open their mouths on matters both fiscal and monetary.

jj

21/11/2010Michael, As do you. Jason, As you are well aware the coalition would have upgraded your broadband dramatically if they got into power, and at much less risk and expense. If it was and is such a popular scheme then why did the Labor party lose its majority at the last election? As you know cost benefits on military equipment has never been done before as national security is not really something that can be valued. On the other hand, cost-benefit analysis have been done on most major infrastructure projects in the 21st century...the government just doesnt want to do one because they know it would come back with a report like the OECD saying that it is too big, too risky, may prevent the emergence of new technologies in Australia, and will create a very uncompetitive system with the government controlling both regulation and the infrastructure. You may like to spend money blind, but i dont. Oh and by the way Windsor wont be contesting the next election so he really couldnt give a stuff about finances or the roll out because he will be gone before he is able to become responsible for a lot of the troubles we are going to see in the future...he just wanted to send his final message of hatred to the National Party. I can tell you now the Nationals will win both the seat of Tamworth in March because of Windsor, and then the seat of New England (who ever the candidate may be) because of Windsor. people feel betrayed by a man who changes his reasoning for the decision he made every week.

Jason

21/11/2010jj, That's all well and good but as I live in Adelaide the NSW state election and the seat of Tamworth matters not! National security! what a crock we've spent nearly a $100 million on the joint strike fighter and are no closer to having one in our skies let alone the country, with further cost blow outs to come, The Abraham's tanks to big to be transported on our existing train rolling stock a swell as the rail infrastructure as there as some tunnels etc they won't fit in, the 40 year old helicopters that Howard bought off Bush! National security alright your side should be embarrassed, so how did Howard pay for all this? he cut other services and projects that were more important, and after all his sucking up to Bush he barely gets a mention in Bush's newly released book, more of a case "John who"?

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21/11/2010Folks I'm back on the air again and have just posted: [i]What does Julia Gillard stand for?[/i] http://www.thepoliticalsword.com/post/2010/11/21/What-does-Julia-Gillard-stand-for.aspx

NormanK

21/11/2010Jason It really is time to give up on jj and the NBN. Every last bit of this has been gone over here on many occasions, using credible independent individuals and institutions as sources for data, opinion and analysis. All to no avail because jj is not even reading them. The only thing that I haven't seen mentioned here (because it is so glaringly obvious) is that the Coalition want to send it off to the Productivity Commission so that the legislation on the separation of Telstra is delayed, Telstra have no deal to take to their shareholders and Labor gets the blame for any subsequent drop in share price and the ensuing anger. Not to mention the potential for sending some aspect of the Commission's report off to committee on some spurious need to examine it more closely. Turnbull is careful to say that the roll-out can continue while the Commission prepares its report but he neglects to mention the stalling of the Telstra deal. Some pundits would have it that once Telstra is separated, there is no turning back so this is the wreckers' last chance to delay things. The Implementation Study also points to a long list of legislative changes that will be necessary and those changes can't commence until this hurdle is cleared. Comparing the NBN to any other major spend by government is apples and oranges. The NBN business plan will confirm that this will be a user pays scheme whereby all taxpayers' funds are returned to the kitty and with a modest profit. No other federal undertaking can make this claim - hospitals, defence, schools, roads - unless of course we decide to start charging people for using public highways and hospitals and schools. Perhaps we could hire a tank for the weekend.

CALLIGULA

21/11/2010Dear TT One old saw I remember from wayback really used to really burr up Vernon (remember Vernon whom I mentioned in my e-mail). Whenever he got out of control I used to say “those who can, do – those who can’t, teach.” He never made much money from his origami – but that didn’t stop him from trying. As far as my not replying to you it might help if I remind you that the matter of your concern was indeed replied to in the last thread. I’ll beg AA’s patience and copy it for your convenience here – “”TT – Your – “Just for fun How's about you pit your Horse against my Bull?” (you were referring to Heliogobaalus or some other bastardization of Mithras. I believe) My reply - Sorry mate. I’m a Queensland lad. We still accept soap-on-a-rope for Xmas up here. For obvious reasons. But since you mention the little sucker, wozzisname, I can well remember the little paperbacks by (was it) Lance Horner, et al. Little potboilers, weren’t they? I shouldn’t be saying any of this because it ain’t ‘Truth. But if you want something to read – try Terry Pratchett’s – “The Truth” – which would you believe, I’m up to page 126 today. More truth in that book than anything else I’ve read, incoming, these last few days. But you get that. Mark Twain once said something like this. “Truth is stranger than fiction – Hey, but fiction has to make sense”. BTW, TT. For over 40 years I’ve known what a ‘fibula’ is. Doesn’t mean I have one fitted. Or do I mistake the intent of yet another discreet little foray outside the realms of this thread. AA – Please get these people leashed in ! “” TT – Okay, now you’ve read it you will realize why I’m not keen on people making value judgements about a silly pen name. You might note that I didn’t start chiseling away at your “bull” either. No. I attempted as best I could to fathom why you sent me a few “Camp” codewords. I then replied sticking to the theme of truth. I’d assumed you didn’t reply for reasons of your own but I did take your blog at face value and contacted you by e-mail there. Are you now saying that you don’t want to sell your paper globe thingys? JJ – your – “Why am i a troll and you a truthful, inclusive and sensible blogger? Is it because i question your unfounded idiotic stances on many issues? Is it because i am not a sheep –“ Now read carefully. I’m beginning to see that it is because you’re not a sheep. Nonetheless these guys are using sheepdog tactics with those whose views differ from their own speciously presented veneer of weltpolitik. Haven’t you noticed the playground sway of emotion from sweetness to a stonewall of insult. Perhaps that’s their political sword? I’d call it a mace, myself. These tactics are employed to ‘manage’ your comments – to keep you distracted from writing ‘from your heart’ about matters important to you. They must do that because they find your ideas unimportant to them. Keep that in mind – write what you truly believe and let those inclined look silly if the insults keep up. Not everyone who reads this stuff agrees with narrow approaches to matters being settled by bluster. Or just get into ‘em anyway. I read somewhere that emotional safety valves may prove to be an increasingly important aspect of the internet into the future. BTW – In one of mine a while back I borrowed some lines from one of our best labor inclined political scientists. Was tired and forgot the attribution. Someone even dumped cack on that. AA – That 10 best putdowns I sent you, the last thread. You confirmed that you enjoyed them. Is that a contributory factor to some of this Katzenjammer? Did someone find Cosgrove’s? Senexx – My apologies. I saw the economics stuff which to me is like a red rag to a bull HA HA – And did what all these others are doing after viewing my poor little blog. Mea culpa. Don’t ever, ever think for a minute that I purposely did that. Indeed it was just a mistake of hasty assumption caused by not reading your pages through. I do submit however that unlike some I have offered the apology. Y’know Senixx, old mate; I think these blogs bring out the worst in us sometimes. So to return to the thread – some advanced political thinkers have come to believe that deficits can oft be attributed to greed and stupidity and can be pinpointed by identifying other examples of aberrant interpersonal behaviour out there.

CALLIGULA

21/11/2010Well Jason – There you are mentioning stuff that is still correct which should have been mentioned years ago. Matter of fact it does roll on to the present bur whenever I try to mention it dear old feral Skeleton rattles her bones at me. Yep useless helos – main battle tanks that cannot be transported ships that leak and aircraft that either, will never fly, are too costly, or underperform. But everyone knows that. What you don’t know is the skullduggery that stuffed Australian industry into its grave while those corrupted ----------s were lining their pockets with ‘considerations’ while the taxpayer copped the bill for all that junk.

Calligula

21/11/2010Coincidental? Now we have – retro living room furniture astrology consultation acne free All nice, glib, say nothing non-comments designed neither to incite, nor to bring much notice. But they’ll be there to ‘climb on the shoulders’ of TPS if you leave ‘em at it. This time I’ll leave my pen-name at half mast in disrespect for these dudes. Oh. FS. Blame me for inviting ‘em – ‘cos I didn’t.

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21/11/2010Calligula As spam seems now to be slipping through on this post, I'll close comments here and ask visitors to comment on the next piece. We would never blame you for the mindless spam.
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