What is the role of political blogsites?

Political blogsites proliferate almost by the week. Many reside in the Fifth Estate. While a few declare their political orientation overtly, most do not. It is possible though to ascertain this by reading the pieces they post. While some purport to be ‘balanced’, ready to criticize any or all political parties, or politicians of any complexion, these seem to be in a minority. Some sites attempt balance by using a variety of authors who hold different views. Individual authors though usually have an established position; it is uncommon to find an author who critiques and criticizes all parties and politicians with equal vigour. Most blogs seem to lean to one side or the other, and some, sponsored by the parties themselves, or closely associated bodies, such as the Institute of Public Affairs, lean exclusively to one party, and condemn almost everything the opposing parties propose or do.

In a comment on the piece Political hatred: its genesis and its toll, Doug Evans, after conceding that the thought of the election of an Abbott government appalled him, went onto say: “I do not understand the unwillingness of intelligent articulate wordsmiths to critically address the shortcomings and missteps of the Gillard government alongside its (admittedly) largely unsung strengths.” His comment prompted me to question the role and orientation of this blogsite: The Political Sword.

Readers have only to read through a few pieces to ascertain that this site is supportive of PM Gillard and her Government. As the owner of the site, I believe that the Rudd/Gillard Government has been an active, reforming government, tackling some of the urgent issues facing this nation: global warming; a failing and inequitable education system; a health system, which although world class, is failing to meet fully the needs of the people, particularly the ageing population, the disabled, and those with mental illness and dental problems; an industrial relations system that was tilted too much to favour the employer; infrastructure deficits in road, rail and ports all over the country; a tax system that needed overhaul to correct anomalies and address the structural deficits in the tax system created by the Howard/Costello Government; a superannuation system that was not providing adequate security for workers; an inadequate communications network that needed upgrading to very fast broadband to keep pace within the developed world; a troubled asylum-seeker policy; and indigenous disadvantage that constituted a national disgrace.

The Government has tackled these and many other issues with purpose and vigour in the last three years, in the face of unremitting Coalition hostility in a minority parliament. Over five hundred pieces of legislation have been passed in this term, without a failure. And in the process, it has sustained the economy in a state better than in any other developed country, even despite the global financial crisis, a crisis that still exists and wreaks havoc in many countries. I applaud what the Rudd/Gillard Government has achieved under very difficult circumstances. For any who doubt the extent of these achievements, do read the comprehensive list in Judging Gillard and the Labor Government by John Lord in The Australian Independent Media Network.

I admire the strength of PM Julia Gillard and her persistence in the face of all the vitriolic hatred directed at her by Opposition Leader Tony Abbott, Coalition members, and the Fourth Estate, notably the Murdoch media. Is there any politician in recent times who has suffered such venomous abuse and denigration, such persistent personal castigation and demonization day after day, week after week, month after month? Is there any other politician that could have withstood it with such equanimity?

Moreover, the PM has shown herself to be highly intelligent and competent, a leader who has an astonishing grasp of every portfolio within her Government, who can answer any question she is asked, and despite the malevolent efforts of journalists, never seems wrong-footed. She does not walk away when the questions get tough. She has demonstrated her courage and persistence in the face of penetrating and sometimes personal questioning on many occasions, some of them marathons.

And I like her. Although we have never met, from all I have seen on TV of her interaction with the public at formal events, at community meetings, or on less formal occasions, and from reports posted here from our visitors, she seems to be genuine, personable, good humoured and charming. She relates comfortably to a wide variety of people, and enjoys especially her interactions with children, who genuinely seem to like her. I find it impossible to feel antagonistic to her, as many seem to feel, and deplore the hatred and loathing that the Coalition and much of the media directs at her continuously.

It is for all of these reasons that this blogsite is an enthusiastic supporter of the PM and her Government.

In stark contrast, from the very beginning her opponent Tony Abbott and his Coalition embarked on a campaign of negativity, obstruction, and vitriolic personal abuse. Progressively, they have announced a destructive plan should they win government, a plan to smash virtually every reform the Government has initiated. Whatever else Abbott says he has in his DNA, he has an abundance of vengeance.

Is there a downside for the Gillard Government? Like all governments before, the Rudd/Gillard Government has made mistakes. There have been matters they might have handled better. But their faults are nowhere near the magnitude that the Coalition and the complicit media paint. They have been deliberately and maliciously magnified. Reflect on how the Murdoch media amplified the difficulties encountered in the rollout of the HIP and the BER, both successful and socially beneficial programs, but painted as unmitigated disasters. Mendacious reporting, skewed analysis, distortions, misrepresentations, and at times blatant lies, were disseminated in place of accurate reporting and analysis.

Although it is not perfect, I support the Gillard Government because of its ideals of equity, fairness and opportunity, its vision, its narrative, and its policies and plans. I have held this position for years, and nothing I have seen has ever given me any encouragement to abandon PM Gillard and Labor and support Opposition Leader Abbott and the Coalition. I reject the ideology, the policies, and the plans of the alternative government, which are anathema to me.

Expect more of the same attitude and approach on The Political Sword.


I will certainly not behave as some Labor backbenchers are at present. The sniggering Joel Fitzgibbon and the spluttering Doug Cameron both mocking the ‘talking points’ given them by the media office was not just unedifying, but corrosive of party cohesion. Making public the packing up of their parliamentary offices by Daryl Melham and Alan Griffin as a sign they would lose their seats, was damaging to the Labor cause. Whatever these four backbenchers felt personally, such a public display of disdain and defeatism was both disloyal and stupid. They could have kept their feelings to themselves, as team players would have done. Surreptitious backgrounding of journalists with stories of dismay at the polling, and despair about the election, is another example of disloyalty; those who do this must know that their corridor whispers will end up being splashed throughout the media. These Nervous Nellies are unsuitable for politics, which always involves contests, and winners and losers. They lack loyalty and guts. They should learn about guts from their leader. So for those looking for criticism, here is a one of contemporary Labor: there are too many parliamentarians who are not pulling together in the interests of the Labor Party and the Labor movement; there are too many creating dissent.

With Labor parliamentarians behaving in this destructive way, should a site as supportive of Labor as The Political Sword embark upon criticism of Labor policies or plans or actions in pursuit of this elusive attribute called ‘balance’? Doug Evans hints that perhaps it ought.

There are two reasons why this seldom occurs here.

First, there are so many blogsites that criticize the Gillard Government incessantly, so many media outlets that do this unremittingly, scarcely ever giving the smallest commendation, that in the interests of fair play, it seems to be unreasonable for a supportive site to join the cacophony of censure, disapproval, and condemnation. Sites supportive of the Coalition do not waste words pointing out its defects, its mistakes. Never. They refrain from critiquing their own side at least in part because they know that their criticisms will end up on opponents’ blogsites as evidence that there is dissent in their ranks.

So, instead of adding to the cacophony, in my view a more productive approach for The Political Sword is to make positive and practical suggestions about how Gillard Government policy and its implementation could be improved. As the next section will show, this is easier said than done. This is especially the case where the problem is beset with complexity, is politically sensitive or threatening, and has the potential to influence election outcomes.

Here is a second reason why The Political Sword has hesitated to engage in critical comment. Some of the policies that Labor has implemented deal with exceedingly complex issues, issues that are prime targets for criticism by those who think they know better, issues that create hostility in a substantial part of the electorate. These critics offer criticisms of bits and pieces of a policy, but never offer a comprehensive alternative. It’s easy to pick holes in a policy and how it is being implemented, but much more challenging to put together an alternative. The asylum-seeker issue is a case in point.

To illustrate my point, I invite you to engage in an exercise with me. Let’s see how adept we are at devising an asylum-seeker policy, an area more contentious than almost any other.

I invite you to present your asylum-seeker policy in ‘dot point’ format because that will make it easier to read and assimilate. I also ask you to preface your dot points with a list of what you wish to achieve with your policy. In other words, aims first, then policy structure in some detail.

Let me give an example of how aims might read. In devising a policy, my aim would be the following:

. To establish a humane and welcoming approach to those escaping from fear of persecution and harm who seek asylum here.

. To arrange a method of arrival that did not include dangerous sea voyages on unsafe boats that risked drowning at sea.

. To ensure rapid appraisal of the legitimacy of claims for asylum of all arrivals, and prompt completion of necessary health and identity checks, with short stays in onshore detention while this is being carried out.

. Once the checks have been satisfactorily completed, to arrange re-settlement in the community, with access to jobs, services, schools, and opportunities for integration.

. To establish community reception amenities and staff, especially in areas that need workforce support, to welcome new arrivals and assist them to integrate into the community.

. To return arrivals that are not genuine asylum seekers according to UN criteria to their home country, provided it is safe to do so.

. To disrupt human trafficking and the business of those who are involved in people smuggling by boat.

. With UNHCR support, to establish processing centres in countries which asylum seekers traverse, and in countries of origin where possible, to provide rapid checks of identity, health and legitimacy of asylum claims, with air transport to Australia for community settlement once accepted. This would be an ‘approved’ way of entering Australia.

. To institute disincentives to dissuade those who might seek to engage people smugglers. This might involve the application of a ‘no-advantage’ arrangement whereby those who sought to bypass an ‘approved’ process, did not gain an advantage. Offshore processing with lengthy delays as a disincentive, ought to be a last resort.

. Recognizing that no one country could accommodate the millions of genuine refugees around the world, to establish community consensus about what constitutes an appropriate intake into Australia.

. Recognizing that asylum-seeker policy is a contentious and divisive issue, and for some in the electorate an explosive one, to establish a national program to inform citizens of our UNHCR responsibilities and to promote the concept of Australia as a decent nation willing to welcome a fair share of the world’s refugees, commensurate with its wealth and its capacity to do so. Such a program would have, as a major aim, the neutralizing of the issue politically.

. To attempt to achieve bipartisan agreement on asylum-seeker policy.

This list of aims is offered, not for your approval or endorsement, but simply to illustrate how aims might be formulated.

In formulating your policy, list first your aims as ‘dot points’, then list ‘dot points’ that flesh out how your policy would work in practice. I have not gone this far as I don’t want to preempt your offerings.

I know that should you respond you won’t insult our intelligence by simply regurgitating anything resembling the simplistic Abbott asylum policy: his three-headed plan to “Stop the boats” by ‘turning boats around when safe to do so’, ‘offshore processing’ and ‘temporary protection visas’. You may wish to include some of these, but please flesh them out more than Abbott ever attempts to do. He treats us all like mugs. We have had enough of this.

While other political blogsites will have their own concept of their role, in attempting to define the role of this particular site, and in response to the suggestion that The Political Sword ought to address deficiencies in the Gillard Government as well as its strong points, I believe that instead of joining with Labor’s opponents in strident condemnation, it is more appropriate for this site, which is supportive of the Gillard Government, to suggest ways that policy could be improved or implemented better. As an example, asylum seeker policy is proposed as the one that causes perhaps the most angst, the one that attracts the most criticism, the one where countless critics tell us by their words of criticism that it should be done differently, and much better. This piece offers the opportunity for these critics to tell us how they would fashion asylum-seeker policy, what aims it would have, and how it ought to be implemented, taking into account the multiple factors that operate in this vexed area of policy. The challenge, simply stated, is that instead of giving us your piecemeal criticism, you tell us what your aims would be and how you would achieve them, in some detail.

It’s especially an invitation to the scathing critics of Labor’s asylum-seeker policy that comment here from time to time, and who may return to comment on the unfolding tragedy near Christmas Island. Instead of another acerbic criticism of this or that aspect of the current policy, tell us in detail what your asylum-seeker aims are, and what your policy would be were you in government. Here’s your chance to put up or shut up.

Your thinking and your response to this challenge will be welcomed.

If you wish to ‘Disseminate this post’, it will be sent to the following parliamentarians: Tony Abbott, Eric Abetz, Anthony Albanese, Adam Bandt, Julie Bishop, George Brandis, Doug Cameron, Jason Clare, Greg Combet, Mark Dreyfus, Craig Emerson, Joel Fitzgibbon, Alan Griffin, Sarah Hanson-Young, Joe Hockey, Barnaby Joyce, Andrew Leigh, Jenny Macklin, Richard Marles, Daryl Melham, Scott Morrison, Robert Oakeshott, Brendan O'Connor, Christopher Pyne, Kevin Rudd, Bill Shorten, Stephen Smith, Wayne Swan, Warren Truss, Tony Windsor, Penny Wong and Nick Xenophon.

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Ad astra

9/06/2013Folks This piece has been written in response to Doug Evans’ query about whether [i]The Political Sword[/i] should “[i]…critically address the shortcomings and missteps of the Gillard government alongside its (admittedly) largely unsung strengths.”[/i] It is a good question, which has exercised my mind since. This piece is the result. Amongst other things, it poses a specific challenge to readers to offer their [b]own[/b] policy on one contentious issue, namely ‘asylum-seeker policy’. I look forward to your responses.

Catching up

9/06/2013Agree with what is written. Now is not the time for the PM to throw the towel in. Why do they assume, if the PM came to the conclusion , that for the good of the party, she would hand over to Rudd. How would this unite her party, as this would be the only grounds for her doing so. It would have to be to someone willing to take the poison chalice as she did. Someone very tough indeed. Maybe a few words of encouragement, to her email address would not go astray.

KHTAGH

9/06/2013Another great piece Ad as was your last. G'Day everyone else too. Very thought provoking, It is the hardest of all policies to tackle, as someone who has actually been on a Navy vessel that has picked up refuges it is a truly difficult experience for all concerned. Believe me it is something that in those days was rare but something the Navy didn't like getting involved with(they are a defense force)but if your out at sea you don't just sail past someone in distress. If Abbott thinks he can order captains to break intentional law he is in for one big surprise. As far as a solution I don't know what the answer is, I wish we had seen if the Malaysian aspect could have been the answer if given a chance. Unfortunately the PM is right when she said Mr Abbott voted for more boats. He knew it would slow the boats down & that was the last thing that he wanted. Sorry for my absence of late, I'm re-netting my orchard, (too many possum incursions, been putting it off for 2 yrs) can only be done in winter. Only got short days though.

Sir Ian Crisp

9/06/2013[quote][b]I know that should you respond you won’t insult our intelligence by simply regurgitating anything resembling the simplistic Abbott asylum policy: his three-headed plan to “Stop the boats” by ‘turning boats around when safe to do so’, ‘offshore processing’ and ‘temporary protection visas’. Ad Astra [/b][/quote] Yes, let’s not go for shallow slogans and three word policies. Let’s go for something that transcends the grubbiness of the Lib-NP camorra. Let’s gaze in awe at the bird of paradox and dwell on her simple but effective plan to deal with the vexing issue Ad Astra highlights in his highly acclaimed piece ‘What is the role of political blogsites? What was it she said? Ah yes, she has a plan to “smash the people smugglers’ model”. It will kick in any day now.

Bilko

9/06/2013AA Another good piece lots of thoughtful points raised. Regarding the asylum-seeker issue, my own view is that there is NO simple answer. Personally I would prefer all refugees/asylum-seekers to be serviced on the Australian mainland whether they flew in,landed on Christmas Island or rescued at sea. The majority somehow make it to Indonesia and that is where we should start. Forget the Pacific island solution unless it is to ship them direct from Indonesia and speed up whatever process is required. These Island sites should be under direct supervision of the locals plus heavy assistance from the Pacific solution signature country's. It would relieve the RAN of some of their problems. I posted the following elsewhere to BB'site the PUB Just after Kevin kicked the rodent out I made a comment on Possum that labor would face a hostile media you responded "You better believe it" unquote. Well here we are 6 years down the track and to their shame the abc (not worth capitals) slithered into the enemy camp joining Fairfax leaving only the fifth estate to show an unbiased perspective not all but most. The polls imho are being manipulated and as you have intimated if they were such a shoe in, why has the rhetoric reached historical high levels. The aim is to scare labor into some action neither the media nor the noalition will bring Julia down, the only danger is the labor nervous nellies in caucus who think they have a better chance with Kevin. NO WAY the media and the Noalition will go ape shit, a government that can't lead itself can not lead the country/ disunity is death etc etc. We have heard all sides spout this and even watched it play out. I pray each week that the Australian General Public wake up, even Bob Ellis is starting to make sense and that should scare us all. The only way forward for Australia, "is all the way with WWJ" (WonderWomanJulia).

el gordo

9/06/2013'The Rudd/Gillard Government has been an active, reforming government, tackling some of the urgent issues facing this nation: global warming;.... CO2 doesn't cause global warming, so that was a waste of time and money.

Truth Seeker

9/06/2013Ad, another fine piece, and agree entirely with your assessment of the situation with JGPM and I believe that she will go down in history as one of Australia's great PMs. As far as the asylum seeker question goes, Like KHTAGH, I don't know what the answer is, but I do believe that it has to start with a regional solution as per the Huston report, at least in the short term. Abbott did vote for more boats and as a consequence more deaths, for purely political reasons, and IMHO the greens are also culpable for their ideological stand of no compromise. I know that I have said it before, but we ARE an island, which makes on shore processing dependent upon those asylum seekers getting ON SHORE. And that means that there will always be people desperate enough to try by boat, and those unscrupulous enough to provide a boat, for a fee. The only part of the Malaysian Solution that I would change, is that I wouldn't put a number on it but rely on the asylum seekers realising that if they try it they will end up back where they started, and increase the intake further to accommodate genuine refugees who have been fully assessed and are ready for resettlement. Sorry I couldn't comply with you dot points Ad, but I do think that the Huston report needs to be implemented in full, at least for a trial period, and then assessed and adjustments made as required in consultation with all parties involved. Cheers :-)

denese

9/06/2013I also wish the Malaysian solution could of been tried, the lnp never put anything forward that is intelligent and well thought about, only turn back the boats. reading sen. carr piece in the Guardian makes one understand where this would lead .abbott would know he cannot turn back boats he is playing to people who don't think through policy, for their vote. ad astra I tried to think it through, my first thought was have a processing area (horrible word}in Indonesia but then the Indonesians would not like that , as more people would arrive on their shores. I would like the Indonesian gov, to be more strict on smugglers , could we not have law enforcement recruited from our state police not the afp. to track down and arrest people smugglers so then I thought the processing areas could be in Malaysia, Indonesia, areas more to the north of asia where people travel from, not a detention centre but processing, in a way that is done by people who simply apply from Europe for example. my next hurdle is how can one send back people to nothing or war zones. sigh and how does one decide who is who as they have been forced to leave behind their ID. sorry I would be hopeless at working out a policy but if it where possible to do so, then fly in the poor souls that qualify, which is done now anyway. but there are so many, all this would take years to go through applications I think I know why you have ask for this exercise to show what an enormous undertaking it would be. I doubt the Lnp or abbott would have the motivation to even try to work any thing through.

Doug Evans

9/06/2013I’ll take a little longer to consider the actual article AA has placed on his blog and comment if it seems appropriate or worthwhile when I’ve thought about it a bit. However as we had been warned that the challenge was coming I had already done a bit of work on it and I’ll post my offering for the consideration of any who can be bothered reading it and perhaps responding. An asylum seeker policy in point form, short enough to be comprehensible in a blog comments stream is a tricky ask but I’ll give it a go. Let me start by stating that I know nothing about asylum seeker policy beyond what my online research tells me. However we’ve been challenged (although I’m not sure why) and as the challenge seems to have been prompted by material I dumped in the comments column a while ago (?) I feel obliged to say what I can about how I think an Australian government should handle this problem. 1. ONSHORE PROCESSING • I think all processing of refugee/asylum applications should be carried out onshore. 80 or 90% of Australia’s asylum seekers arrive by plane with valid papers, usually a tourist visa and simply overstay before applying for asylum. They are processed onshore why not the rest? Australia is the only industrialized country in the world (out of some 44 countries) to have offshore detention centres. Why is that? • Onshore processing is cheaper. The way we do it now is very expensive. The cost of re-establishing offshore processing on Nauru alone has been estimated at $2billion over 4 years. Budget papers reveal the cost of Australia's immigration detention system was estimated at $800 million in 2011-12. With approximately 7,000 people in detention, it cost Australians $110,000 per asylum seeker in detention in 2011-12, and in 2012 the overall cost rose suddenly some 500 million. • Onshore processing would be a large step towards ensuring that Australia (currently a member of the UN Security Council) meets its UN obligations in respect of refugees and asylum seekers. Although offshore processing is not in itself a contravention of these obligations we are obliged to provide adequate safeguards including the provision of humane living conditions and an effective regime for the prompt processing of refugee claims. It has been argued that neither of these exists on Nauru and Manus Island. 2. DETENTION Australia's system of mandatory detention of asylum seekers without time limits has been found on numerous occasions to breach Australia's international obligations not to subject anyone to arbitrary detention. • I think all asylum seekers should be detained for processing at a centrally located processing centre or centres in Canberra or wherever the relevant Federal bureaucracy is located. This/these facilities need to be secure but not behind barbed wire. There are many less intimidating and stigmatizing options to barbed wire fences. A central location and high profile is important for both symbolic and practical reasons of access. • I think they should be held there for no longer than two weeks; just long enough to complete the initial application and to have any health or support needs assessed. After that time they should be moved to regional refugee centres centrally located in one or more of the State Capitals where they will have assigned caseworkers to whom they should report regularly while awaiting a decision on whether their application for asylum is to be granted or not. • I think that if an applicant has family or close friends in Australia they should be able to choose to live with them while their application is being processed. • I think that if it is assessed that an asylum seeker's application will take more than four months to determine, the applicant should be entitled to work. • I think they should be offered free housing, but should provide for them selves if they have enough money. Emergency medical and dental procedures and prescriptions should be provided for minimal cost. All asylum seeker children should receive the same medical coverage as Australian children. • I think that the Regional refugee centres should provide accommodation for the asylum seekers along with childcare, recreation facilities and a central reception office. • I think that asylum seekers should be required to visit the reception office regularly to receive their allowance, news on their application and for need and risk assessment. • I think that their caseworkers should make these assessments and refer clients for medical care, counselling and other services. • I think that in the regional reception centres residents should be free to come and go as they please. • I think that all asylum seekers awaiting a decision should be encouraged to participate in some form of organized activity such as English lessons if they are not working. • I think although there may be special cases, in general it should be for an applicant to decide whether or not to speak to the press. How am I doing so far? Does it sound like a lot of impractical hippy rubbish that only a Greens supporter with no idea of what it takes to govern, could dream up? I’m afraid there’s quite a bit more in similar vein about the categorization of asylum seekers, treatment of those whose applications have been rejected and their rights to appeal negative assessments, but I’ve already used too much space. Luckily I don’t have to write it all down. You can all look for yourself. What I’ve described so far is the way they do this in Sweden. Apparently they were so naïve as to just go ahead and try to do the right thing rather than waiting for the focus groups and party strategists to tell them what they could get away with without losing votes in the marginals. It’s all written in a paper that you can find here http://www.fabian.org.au/940.asp along with the footnotes and the author’s credentials. Of course Sweden is not Australia and as is well known they have their own problems with xenophobia, racism and the rise of fascism not unrelated to immigration and refugee intake at the moment. Grant Mitchell, the very well qualified author of the paper I’ve been plagiarizing has some very interesting things to say about the differences and similarities between the two countries. But I have a few comparative figures of my own. In 2010 Sweden received about 30,000 asylum seekers. In 2010 Sweden’s population was 9.18 million. That is one asylum seeker for every 306 Swedish citizens. In 2010 Australia’s population was 20.85 million and it received in total 8250 applications for asylum. About half of these were the boat arrivals that get our politicians so hot and bothered. Looking at total numbers only we find that is one asylum seeker for every 2527 Australian citizens. The number of Swedish asylum seekers in 2010 was about 8.5 times greater per capita than in Australia. However in 2010 Sweden held most applicants for asylum in mandatory detention for no longer than 14 days. In 2010 Australia held them for an average of 224 days. In the same year France, approx 49,000 asylum seekers (one for every 1260 French citizens) held them for an average of 10.7 days and Canada, roughly 22,000 asylum seekers (roughly one for every 1500 Canadian citizens) held them for an average of 8 days. The numbers, both total and boat arrivals have shifted since 2010. 2012 saw 17,202 Australian arrivals by sea. This year's figure looks set to be even higher. However numbers are increasing elsewhere also and the comparisons remain valid although totals and ratios have shifted. Why is it that in Sweden, indeed nearly everywhere else in the developed world the numbers of arrivals are much larger but the problem seems to be smaller? In 2007 Labor had the real possibility of separating itself from the coalition on this issue and doing what is right. Instead it chose to engage in a pissing contest with them to see which party could convince a severely misled electorate that they could be the meanest to a tiny group of the world’s most vulnerable people. I support the commonly expressed view that since little Johnny the Rat pulled his Tampa number on Kim Beasley and caused him to lose the ‘unloseable’ election, the ALP has lacked the courage to confront the ever-present undercurrent of racism that flows in so many Australians. Could it be that the Gillard government has got itself into this appalling mess because it didn’t have the courage to confront a relatively small number of shock jock fuelled racists primarily in Sydney’s western suburbs by telling them a few simple truths? Like for example: • Persecuting asylum seekers who arrive (perfectly legally) by boat will make no difference to the number of burkas and brown and black faces that alarm you by living and working in your neighbourhood. Irregular boat arrivals are a small percentage of Australia’s total asylum seeker applications and nearly all of them are genuine refugees fleeing persecution as opposed to the large majority of arrivals by air where nearly all of them are found to be not genuine. • Numbers of asylum seekers arriving in Australia are tiny both in total and on a per capita basis. Australia ranks in the mid forties in the rank ordering of favoured destinations for asylum seekers. And so on. You all know the script. Now it is clear that the MSM has complicated the dissemination of this message with its constant negative messaging so the blame for the woefully low level of awareness of asylum seeker realities is not entirely with the government. Overall I think the Rudd/Gillard governments have done a passably good job in difficult circumstances and I agree with Paul Strangio that history will probably judge them (particularly Gillard) better than their current critics on the other side of the ‘House’ and in the MSM. However the mess they have created around the issue that AA nominates, asylum seekers, is all their own doing. The virtually indistinguishable policies of both the major parties on this issue are a stain on Australia’s history. It did not have to be so. I hope the above demonstrates this. What causes good and intelligent people, some of whom even aspire to make Australia a fairer, more just place, to conceive and enact such discriminatory, cruel legislation? Now there is a question worthy to be diced and dissected by a frank and fearless Political Sword. This question is not the same as ‘what do you think we should do that would make things better?’ A final note. The failure of the Gillard government to put in place a principled and workable asylum seeker policy is worthy of discussion but it is rather the unexamined tacit acceptance of this and other substantial policy glitches by this Labor government on this site that I have been bellyaching about over the last few weeks. In difficult times critical examination of the entire political landscape is necessary pre-requisite to understanding what is happening to us. Consistently overlooking the not insubstantial failings of one of the three major features in our political landscape (Labor, Coalition, MSM) is not helpful to promoting understanding and perhaps appropriate action. I’ll have another go at setting my critique out in a separate post, time and energy permitting.

Doug Evans

9/06/2013Oops sorry Aims. The aims of this policy are to humanely and expeditiously comply with our international obligations in respect of refugees and asylum seekers.

jane

9/06/2013el gordo, save the bullshit for some idiot who believes you. Ad astra, you have set a very hard task wrt asylum seeker policy and its implementation. Ever since the dog whistling commenced by the Rodent government, there has been a dearth of sensible intelligent discussion with a view to arriving at an equitable, humane solution for asylum seekers arriving by boat and those rotting in camps in Malaysia and Indonesia. The opposition has offered absolutely nothing but lies, bile, spite, racism of the worst sort and inane slogans. Their only policy seems to consist of 4 words "Turn back the boats". No suggestion of how this would be achieved without causing serious damage to our reputation internationally. After reading your aims, I don't know that I could add anything more; it is so comprehensive and reflects my aspirations wrt asylum seekers so completely. Your point about educating the public about our UNHCR responsibilities and the concept of the fair go on which we pride ourselves, but has been so absent from the negative spin and rhetoric offered by the Liars and their barrackers. I really don't think there WILL be a bipartisan approach to this vexing problem as long as the Liars can use it for political capital. If only there were some adults in that party, we may have had a resolution long ago.

Ad astra

9/06/2013Catching up, KHTAGH, Bilko, Truth Seeker, denese, jane Thanks to all of you for your thoughtful comments and suggestions. I can see already that the extraordinary complexity of the asylum-seeker issue is being acknowledged. It was telling that on [i]Insiders[/i] this morning the panelists too were aware of the complexity, and willing to say so, an admission I haven’t heard much in the past. None of them attempted to suggest a solution, but conceded that Abbott and Morrison had set themselves a formidable target, one that was unlikely to be reached. I’m still waiting to read or hear a comprehensive, plausible policy statement from politicians or commentators, and frankly, I doubt if I ever will.

Ad astra

9/06/2013Doug Evans Thank you for taking the time and effort to respond to the challenge I set, set to illustrate how difficult policy making is in this contentious and inflammatory area, complicated profoundly by a host of community and electoral factors, as Laurie Ferguson intimated in a recent interview, who said that for his constituency it a was a constant and vexing issue. Much of what you have suggested as a basis for asylum-seeker policy seems sound. I suspect many readers would agree with many of your points. You say: “[i]In difficult times critical examination of the entire political landscape is necessary pre-requisite to understanding what is happening to us.”[/i]. Indeed it is, especially in this matter. Because it is the Gillard Government that is responsible for implementing asylum-seeker policy, while the Coalition and the Greens are on the sidelines, unable to act, the focus and the criticism has been directed at the Government. In my view, it would be more fruitful to discuss the issue generically and develop optimal policy that could be implemented by whoever was in government. Is that what you imply with your words: “…critical examination of the entire political landscape…”? I look forward to your next critique.

Ad astra

9/06/2013Folks I'm calling it a day.

Capstan

9/06/2013In relation to the issue of illegal boat arrivals - every single lefty tosser on this pathetic blog site cheered when the Rudd / Gillard dismantling of John Howard's Pacific Solution occurred back on 8 Feb 2008. My I remind you bunch of blinkered, tragic incompetents - only about 450 illegals arrived [b]over 7 years[/b], from the time the Pacific Solution was introduced in 2001 until the Krudster scrapped it on 8 Feb 2008. [b]450 in [u]seven [/u]years.[/b] These illegal boat arrivals are now flooding in at the rate of about [b]600 [u]per week[/u][/b]. 90% of illegal boat arrivals have no identification documents - despite the fact they travelled from Iran / Afghanistan / Pakistan / Iraq by plane, which required a passport. That is, they deliberately toss their identification documents overboard before they are "rescued". This is usually call FRAUD. You bunch of numpties do know all of this, don't you? Despite all of you concluding that stopping all of this is horribly complicated and devilishly difficult to halt - you are wrong. It is easy to bring this ALP-induced cancer to a grinding halt very quickly. Here's how you do it. 1. Introduce legislation that will disqualify anyone who is determined, on the balance of probabilities, to have deliberately disposed of their identity documents from ever being granted Australian citizenship. 2. Re-introduce temporary protection visas for those who are determined as being refugees, so that, when things are peaceful back in their own country, they can be moved back there. 3. Instantly remove refugee status from any refugee who subsequently travels to visit the country from which they have allegedly fled (these types of journeys by "refugees" happen all the time - what a con). 4. For anyone on a temporary protection visa, prohibit them absolutely from the right to bring any relatives into Australia. 5. Cut down the benefits they receive so that life for them here will be difficult financially (which is what your drongo government appears to have done - thank heavens for small and inadequate blessings). If you cut off what these illegal scumbags want (citizenship, generous benefits and the right to bring family into the country) - the boats will stop pretty well instantly. It's not difficult at all. And people will stop drowning at sea. By my reckoning, Gillard, Rudd and everybody who cheered when Rudd's changes were introduced back in Feb 2008 have the blood of well over 1,000 people on their hands - this is how many have drowned because of the laws [b]you [/b]wanted and [b]you [/b]introduced. The epitaph every one of you pathetic plonkers should carve into your tomb stones is "But we meant well".

lyn

10/06/2013Today’s Links That's the Way It Wasn't by @MrDenmore why there is such disenchantment with so muchtraditional 'mainstream media' political and economic reporting. It stems from a refusal or at least a reluctance by the traditional press to at least reflect on the fact that they are part of the apparatus that they report on. And that it is this standpoint that colours their view of the http://thefailedestate.blogspot.com.au/ Labor Bashing by @Vic_Rollison How have we come to this point in our nation where we would prefer to shrink back into a bigoted, mean, selfish, stop the boats, cancel the Carbon Price, kill the NBN, scrap Gonski’s education funding, boost Gina Rinehart’s fortune, prop up Murdoch’s out of date business model instead of being brave, bold and committed to a better future for our children http://victoriarollison.com/2013/06/08/labor-bashing/ Why We Fight… by @BushfireBill Hundreds of columns, op-eds and poll commentary pieces have been written, leading the wise old men (and they are mostly men) of the elite political media to predict imminent doom for Gillard… and not one has been correct.According to a tweet reproduced above they’re still at it. This is clearly obsessive behaviour http://pbxmastragics.com/2013/06/09/why-we-fight/ Ruling in, ruling out by @awelder "Gillard-haters"* like Drag0nista and Leigh Sales are clearly upset. They'd be fine if Rudd was undermining Gillard; they'd be fine if Rudd went to ground, and rendered himself politically inert. Both fit the Abbott's-inevitable-Gillard's-doomed Narrative. Because he's done neither, they play word games with him: do you rule out ... http://andrewelder.blogspot.com.au/ The case for keeping Julia Gillard by @MacklinRobert, Journalist and author The Murdoch press, and the miners, have vilified Labor for their own vested interests. Sadly, their campaign has set the tone for other media outlets. But that could only be effective in a political landscape where something fundamental has changed in the communication business. http://citynews.com.au/2013/the-case-for-keeping-julia/ RESULTS FROM A WORKING GOVERNMENT by @TABV2013 list of this governments achievements over the past two and a half years and all with the support of the conservative opposition; despite the fact that it has gone forward to vilify the government and its policies with its 'public voice'. http://tabvpolitics.weebly.com/results-from-a-working-government.html Gillard, Whitlam and Murdoch by @ngungun Julia’s decision was reckless for Labor. It has given a virulent opposition and a vicious and uncontrollable media seven whole months in which to hurl slings and arrows of outrageous accusations — some true but most exaggerated beyond all reason. http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/gillard-whitlam-and-murdoch/ Newman’s State, Abbott’s nation by @CraigEmersonMP Abbott was strangely silent when Queensland Treasurer Tim Nicholls announced the State Budget was being hit by revenue write-downs. What happened to his argument that revenue was doing fine. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0ctB3LVda7hRjBvN2NQa29qdXc/edit?pli=1 A rock and a hard place by @btckr Ms Gillard has been through a lot since taking over the parliamentary party, leading the party to a 50/50 election result, putting up with some disgusting politicking from Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition, watching the polls go up and down like a yo-yo and pretty much ignoring a hostile news media. http://thesnipertakesaim.wordpress.com/2013/06/09/a-rock-and-a-hard-place/ I’m Liberal and I won’t vote for Tony by @TheHoopla Where is the Liberal Party’s sense of decency and humanity? Demonising individuals and families who are desperate enough to take to the high seas, whilst quietly ignoring those who enter by other means, getting hung up and confusing religious beliefs on homosexuality with the right to have relationships legally recognised http://thehoopla.com.au/liberal-vote-tony/ Today’s ReachTel by Bob Ellis They did not say though if Labor would win with Rudd as PM, surely an important question. Why did they not ask it? Because they are crooks, that’s why, and there is other evidence for this. http://www.ellistabletalk.com/ Bring Kevin Back say Australia’s over 60s by @Startsatsixty At the time of writing this article, “Bring Kevin Back” was the most popular choice of over 60s online. http://www.startsatsixty.com.au/bring-kevin-back-say-australias-over-60s/ Independents the answer to political cartels by @Jarrapin How many more times do you think you can bear hearing “Stop the Boats” before being driven to commit axe murder on your neighbour? It feels like we’re drowning in party politics: party slogans, party rhetoric, party policy, party doctrine. As political scientist, Dean Jaensch, describes it — it’s all-pervasive: http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/independents-the-answer-to-political-cartels/ The Shame of this Nation - the Killing of a PM by @Thefinnigans https://twitter.com/Thefinnigans/status/343192877440045056/photo/1 Abbott and Asbestos by @no_filter_Yamba Telstra tried to fast-track compensation arrangements for its employees exposed to asbestos but was rebuffed by Tony Abbott's own department back in 2001. With the opposition on Monday leading a parliamentary attack on the government over its alleged lack of urgency in addressing asbestos discovered in Telstra junction pits being handed http://northcoastvoices.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/abbott-and-asbestos.html Economy yet to make transition to post-boom world by @1RossGittins Public sector spending grew 1.1 per cent, but this followed a much bigger fall the previous quarter and with all the pressure on state and federal governments to balance their budgets, we shouldn't expect much help from the public sector. According to the opposition, the Gillard government's been doing far too much to help. http://www.rossgittins.com/2013/06/economy-yet-to-make-transition-to-post.html “Julia Gillard Has Guts” But You Already Knew That, Didn’t You- by Patricia wa Barry Cassidy has even fronted our national evening news bulletin to give a grave faced report on his own opinion and that of other senior Canberra journalists that she will soon be gone, http://cafewhispers.wordpress.com/ "God's Millionaires" By Adele Ferguson Many of these ministers have made themselves multi-millionaires. They are no more than business magnates who benefit from the tax-free status of corporations that they lead. They are not 'pastors' but business managers who have cashed in on a loophole in the Western governmental tax system." http://www.trinityfi.org/press/GodsMillionaires.html Australia’s political heartland: hate, fear, prejudice by @theantibogan The great Australian shame is that not only are there votes to be had in hate, fear and prejudice, but that this is the heartland in which our political game is lost and won, writes Jonathan Green. http://theantibogan.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/australias-political-heartland-hate-fear-prejudice/ Multiculturalism and Racism by @CitizenCara I felt compelled to write a post after the ABC QandA episode "Racism, Hypocrisy and Hot Air". I felt that the lady who asked why was Islam being taught in Australian schools curriculum but Christianity wasn't, is that she was feeling "marginalised http://runawaitha.blogspot.com.au/ Time To End The Lies About Refugees by Polliter True refugees wait in desperate, awful, barbaric camps in Pakistan, Iran and throughout Africa, where hundreds of thousands live in absolute misery and destitution – waiting, hoping, after making the long walks through war torn lands, losing everything save the clothes on their backs, they wait, hope for a chance in a new land http://polliter.com/2013/05/28/time-to-end-the-lies-about-refugees/ Today’s Front Pages Australian Newspaper Front Pages for 10 June 2013 http://www.thepaperboy.com/australia/front-pages.cfm News headlines http://www.hotheadlines.com.au/

Mal Kukura

10/06/2013Here is a not so brief “Foreword” for a more comprehensive future policy response that will eventually comply with Ad Astra’s formatting guidelines. Following the psychopath natspaC here is no bed of roses way to start the day but that is how things seem to have panned out. I want to say how refreshing it is that Doug Evans did the heavy lifting and made an effort to put together a starting point for policy in accordance with Ad Astra’s requests. You are an inspiration DE. In case anyone would like to study it in detail as I am going to do before coming up with a comprehensive policy response that complies fully with Ad Astra’s requested format - the Report of the Houston Expert Panel on Asylum Seekers is available here: http://expertpanelonasylumseekers.dpmc.gov.au/sites/default/files/report/expert_panel_on_asylum_seekers_full_report.pdf I do not see why it should not be acknowledged as the foundation of future policy. Discarding it and starting from scratch shows contempt for the eminent panel and is re-inventing the wheel. If it is to be discarded then the first thing to do is to appoint a better qualified panel and I am not qualified so I begin with reviewing it and recommend the same to any sincere contributor. My general first impression of it was that the panel made an honest and decent attempt to deal with the matter and devised what they felt would be a pragmatic and realistic approach under the actually existing circumstances - not the least of which are toxic malignant effects of the financially magnified voices and exaggerated influence of the greedy plutocrats who own the puppet Tony Abbott and the LNP including the micro-rodent mercenary agitprop agent natscaP. One issue the panel did not adequately consider which to me is crucial to implementation of a viable policy is that the real issue is a psycho-analytic/therapeutic one – using reality to dispel the deep seated fear that is mendaciously manipulated by the LNP and Murdoch propagandists and which dominates the public consciousness regarding the nightmare fantasies of invasion by overwhelming northern barbarian hordes. I can see no alternative but comprehensive therapeutic education by mass media focusing on both the internet and the ABC. We are lighting the spark of that curative regenerating fire here on TPS. Let the healing begin. Perhaps the Australian people need to organize and occupy the ABC as a first step to ensuring that the network fulfils its mission especially in regard of counteracting the hypnotic psychic manipulative pressures applied by the special interests of the super wealthy owners of the LNP who seek to forcefully dominate policy and to destroy democracy and the legislative function of the house of reps by buying themselves a prime minister and cabinet with the “advertising” we are now immersed in = an investment in future parasitic profits to be extracted from the Australian people. What they envision is installation of a system like the one in the USA where a very large impoverished underclass of low paid workers enrich the plutocrats who exploitively feast on the low paid productive work of the underclass on temporary work permits and no work permits. Like their vile puppet John Howard, they want to decide who comes to Australia and they want to extract maximum profits from them and us by paying the lowest possible wages. Murdoch Rinehart and Alan Joyce are on record complaining about Australian incomes being far too high to be competitive. That is of course the modest incomes of the majority who live on less than $100Kpa family income not the incomes of the super-rich who take home tens of millions per annum. The Houston panel report may not be perfect but should serve as an appropriate beginning. Although it is a complex and time consuming task as earlier contributors have pointed out it is not the processes for handling the people who want to come to Australia that are the most difficult to devise and implement. By far the more difficult problem is devising and implementing actions that will successfully develop pragmatic procedures and make them acceptable to the general public even though they will never be acceptable to insatiably greedy plutocrats who today control both major political parties. That is a matter of dispelling illusions – the symptoms of mental illness. Media based therapy for the general public. The wealthy plutocrats and their human shields and agents are bordering on incorrigible and are probably beyond therapy. Procedures must be developed to deal with them too. The marauding psychopaths who visit TPS might be useful patients for testing experimental therapies. You can easily see natspaC’s transparent parody of a policy response for what is – counterfeited mimicry of a policy response format that is used as an instrument for the hanging up the same sorts of eruptions of infectious toxic filth from the unconscious that poured forth in previous psychotic posts. Indonesia, South East Asia, Indo China, India, China, Japan together are home to maybe five thousand millions of human souls and we here are 23 million. They outnumber us more than two hundred to one. Are you afraid? Can we all get along? Sane people know what all corporations claim in their mission statements – our people are our most valued and precious resource-asset. Our Australia/New Zealand hybrid Eurasian/Oceania culture has already demonstrated vigour in the rapid growth of material prosperity an our cultural creative achievements in the arts, literature, science and entertainament. We are heirs to the knowledge handed down from Athens and the ancient Greek philosophers. Independently the Indian genius Siddartha Gautama and the Chines sage Lauzi made the same discovery at the same time – that is – that true reality and real knowledge comes from observing things for ourselves not from obedient compliance with the control freaks who seek to dominate and subjugate human prey. This common core of European scientific philosophic culture, Buddhism and Dauism holds the secrets to how we can overcome our fear of Asia and fulfil the destiny of this down under sanctuary of Eurasian enlightenment at the end of the world where we live. We are all heirs to the same awesome legacy. It is our privilege to be well disposed materially to share this news with our neighbours. The new spirituality that emerges from the convergence of these three independent cultural trajectories and wisdom traditions is the last best hope for waking up and transcending our fear of invading hordes. We of Aus/NZ have an opportunity to light the fire of spiritual revolution in the hearts of all Asia from here.

lawriejay

10/06/2013The great leveller in whatever criticism that is to be directed at JULIA GILLARD'S Government would be if they took a simple bit of advice from the LADY herself, at a press conference in recent times she was asked what she expected from the press (something along that line?) JULIA'S response was something like this : "JUST PRINT THE FACTS - CAN'T BE TOO HARD - CAN IT" Apply that to both sides of the political debate and see what the polls produce then ??

Capstan

10/06/2013Thank you for your barely comprehensible, extended gibberish, Mal K. You are one of those morons who demanded the scrapping of Howard's Pacific Solution and cheered as loudly and enthusiastically as everyone else on this sad little Petri Dish of lefty time warp when the Krudster did so on 8 Feb 2008. Tell me why [b]you [/b]are not responsible for the subsequent deaths of over 1,000 people at sea - and for the deaths that are yet to come. You got what [b]you [/b]demanded - the Pacific Solution was scrapped by your idiotic government of bleeding-heart incompetents - and people predictably started drowning at sea. [b]You [/b]are responsible for their deaths, mate. And so is everybody else on this crap-filled site who now employ every measure of sophistry to avoid the truth: your individual and collective policy decisions (demanded by [b]you [/b]personally and implemented by the government [b]you [/b]chose) have killed over a thousand people, for which all of [b]you [/b]are directly responsible, both individually and collectively.

Ad astra

10/06/2013LYN’S DAILY LINKS updated: http://www.thepoliticalsword.com/page/LYNS-DAILY-LINKS.aspx

Ad astra

10/06/2013Folks Lyn is moving house this coming Friday. She will not be posting links on Friday 14 June and the following few days. She will resume posting her links on Tuesday 18 June. For the time being, on the days that she will still be posting them this week, she will post fewer - around ten to twelve links per day. I'm sure you will join me in wishing her a happy and successful move.

Patriciawa

10/06/2013Thank you Lyn! It's not just your linking of significant blog postings for us that's so useful. It's your ability to feature in a few lines the core message in these articles. That guides the reader to the essence of a blog posting and gives a sense of public opinion across this country beyond the manipulations of main stream media. Australians and others out in the wider world are being told in no uncertain terms how we feel about this media orchestrated attack on our government. We don't like it and we will resist. You are helping us to reach out to our elected representatives in Canberra and encourage them, government ministers and our brave Prime Minister to stand firm. If we continue to communicate vigorously with them and each other there should be no repetition of November llth, 1975. A good government will not be overturned without the informed consent of its people.

Ad astra

10/06/2013Capstan Thank you for responding in detail to my request. Your policy ideas explain your way of thinking, which I suspect many might share in the electorate. It exposes a dimension of the asylum-seeker issue that constitutes a major factor in devising a policy to manage it. How does a policy satisfy those who think as you do, who categorize asylum seekers as ‘illegal scumbags’, and yet satisfy those who want a humane and accepting approach to those seeking asylum? Your contribution would be more acceptable if you refrained from offering personal denigration of individuals who post here and the [i]TPS[/i] group, which you seem to hold in such contempt. You would find responses to your writing more accepting if you offered us all common courtesy, which I’m sure respondents would reciprocate.

Ad astra

10/06/2013Mal Kukura Thank you for your comprehensive and thoughtful comment, and your response to my request. I was particularly taken with a couple of your paragraphs: “[i]One issue the [Houston] panel did not adequately consider which to me is crucial to implementation of a viable policy is that the real issue is a psycho-analytic/therapeutic one – using reality to dispel the deep seated fear that is mendaciously manipulated by the LNP and Murdoch propagandists and which dominates the public consciousness regarding the nightmare fantasies of invasion by overwhelming northern barbarian hordes. I can see no alternative but comprehensive therapeutic education by mass media focusing on both the internet and the ABC. We are lighting the spark of that curative regenerating fire here on TPS. Let the healing begin.”[/i] I agree. This paragraph too seemed to touch on a sensitive issue: “[i]What they [the LNP] envision is installation of a system like the one in the USA where a very large impoverished underclass of low paid workers enrich the plutocrats who exploitively feast on the low paid productive work of the underclass on temporary work permits and no work permits.”[/i] That is frightening prospect should we be given an Abbott government. I’m sure others will appreciate the merit of what you have written.

Ad astra

10/06/2013Patriciawa Thank you for your comment and your lovely tribute to what Lyn does for us day after day. You are so right when you say: “[i]You are helping us to reach out to our elected representatives in Canberra and encourage them, government ministers and our brave Prime Minister to stand firm.”[/i]

Ad astra

10/06/2013lawriejay How right you are!

Patriciawa

10/06/2013Good luck with the move, Lyn. Every now and then everyday life intrudes on our passions, doesn't it? Quite apart from all the details of packing and movers you need to be across, there are all those calls that have to be made about power and water and keys etc. How you still manage to think straight and focus on your work for us all here at TPS is amazing. I'm finding straight thinking a challenge at the moment myself. Tacker has somehow caught kennel cough and is whooping his little heart out. Off to the vet if this keeps up. I wonder how the PM manages? Will she still be here in Fremantle on Wednesday? I

TalkTurkey

10/06/2013Grow Orchids or Feed Elephants Go Fishing or Raise Quolls Play Bridge or learn to Belly~Dance But PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLLS! :)

Sir Ian Crisp

10/06/2013[quote][b]el gordo, save the [u]bullshit[/u] for some idiot who believes you. [...] jane [/b][/quote] Jane, you're an alleged lady so it's quite a shock to see you use language like that. Remember your manners dear 'lady'.

Sir Ian Crisp

10/06/2013Truth Tweaker, I'm still waiting for my answer. Your name suggests you're the agent for truth so let's hear from you.

Ken

10/06/2013I see the policy objective as a humane policy accepting geuine refugees (noting that most boat arrivals are accepted as genuine refugees. I am not addressing issues that have already largely been covered.` There are off-shore and on-shore factors to consider. It is the "push" factors off-shore that are the more important but probably little we can do about them - i.e. wars and natural disasters - but stop getting involved in US wars may help. A key question here is why people from Afghanistan and Iraq end up in Indonesia. I would have thought there must be UNHCR camps closer than that: why aren't people being processed there? Or why are they choosing not to be processed closer to home? Answers to these questions would help shape policy. The other key off-shore factor is the "passage" countries. Most people would not try to come by boat if they knew they would be officially processed in a reasonable time in the passage countries. In Australia's case, Indonesia is the prime passage country. I think Australia needs to continue to encourage Indonesia to sign up to the refugee convention. At least that way official refugee camps could be established under UNHCR auspices in Indonesia, and Australia could also send Immigration officials to such centres to select refugees for our intake (as Fraser sent such officials to the camps housing Vietnamese refugees). If we can talk Indonesia into signing the convention, instead of spending our money on Nauru, PNG, even Christmas Island, we could provide aid to Indonesia to support the refugee centres. Even before Indonesia signs (or if it does not sign) the refugee convention, there is still a case to negotiate an agreement with Indonesia allowing Australian officials to examine refugee claims on-site rather than waiting for them to arrive at Christmas Island. There have also been some boats coming direct from Sri Lanka. That situation is somewhat more difficult because the government says (correctly) that the civil war is over and that there are now no genuine refugees, but the issue is whether Tamils may still face persecution or discrimination - diplomatically there is no answer to this. On-shore There may still be a need for one or two on-shore processing centres, mainly ID, health and security clearances and the provision of support services when refugees go into the community. The other big on-shore issue is that giving rise to this issue in the first place - the public reaction. As I posted in the previous thread,refugees/migrants are a major issue in the western suburbs of Sydney. As I said then, I don't see this necessarily as racism but arises from the day to day reality of seeing different values operating in your own suburb. An academic I knew who had studied apartheid in South Africa once told me that Australian "racism" was based on ignorance rather than a "conscious" racism and was, therefore, easier to counter. The difference is that Australians will generally accept someone once they get to know them, whereas the conscious racism of South Africa meant that a "black" was always discriminated against no matter what. The government should aim to support community forums that bring refugees and new migrants together with other locals to discuss community issues. This would need to start at a "community leaders" level and broaden participation as the leaders brought their communities with them. The broader meetings would focus on particular community issues. It is a chance to allow people to actually have contact and break down stereotypes. Could write an entire two or three page blog on this but had better stop now.

Doug Evans

10/06/2013Mal K Going to write this quickly without checking relying on my fading memory so there might be slips. As I remember it the problem with the Select Panel Findings as a point of departure lies in its terms of Reference. Specifically in the things it was not allowed to consider. It was designed first to get the government out of a deep hole that it had dug for itself and only second to address the humanitarian needs of the asylum seekers. Bernard Keane from Crikey did a review of progress on its recommendations seven months after it had made them and found that nearly all of them had been implemented or commenced. The cruncher is that the recommendations of the Select Panel have made no difference. The boats keep coming, people keep drowning and asylum seekers are locked up, virtually in concentration camp conditions indefinitely as far away from the marginals seats as it is possible to get them. The Malaysia solution, irrespective of the reservations some (The Greens for example) had of the likely treatment of asylum seekers in Malaysia was wide open to a High Court challenge in the humble opinion of spectacularly successful refugee advocate David Mann. Irrespective, if implemented it would not have achieved anything more than a reprieve for a relatively small number of asylum seekers at considerable cost to Australia and would quickly have been exhausted. The only 'solution' to this problem starts with telling the truth to Australians which his Labor government did not have the bottle to do. Relatively small numbers of asylum seekers, both in total and arrivals by boat. Nearly all of them genuine refugees fleeing for their lives. Our obligation under international law to treat them humanely etc etc. There was a model of a far more efficient and humane way of doing this available. Sweden was doing this a decade or so before it became an issue in Australia and as I have shown the pressure is far greater there than it is here. This should lead us to question WHY the government would not follow a similar path. As I recall they began with a policy rather more humane than that which they try to use as a fig leaf today. They discovered however that they were unable to counter Abbott's slogans and unable to convince the swinging voters in the key marginals that this was the right way to go and step by step were drawn towards the steaming pile of costly, inhumane, illogical crap that they are stuck with today. It is impossible to rationally conclude therefore that they have adopted this position for reasons other than gross political expediency. It is a gross version of Richo's 'whatever it takes'. Do you really not think the government should be castigated severely for this failing? Holding thousands of vulnerable, traumatized people the vast majority of whom are legitimate refugees, in indefinite detention thereby causing them severe mental harm for reasons of political expediency. That OK with anyone here? Inappropriate to criticize this? Give me a break. The UNHCR certainly thinks their policy is reprehensible. The High Court has knocked it back at least once (more?) The ultimate irony is that the whole strategy has failed miserably politically also. When Lawrie Ferguson stood to ask the PM to come and explain it to the people of Sydney's west - otherwise Labor is dead he confiemed this completely.

Tom of Melbourne

10/06/2013Gillard deserves the most trenchant criticism over asylum seekers. It’s proof that she is mean spirited and motivated by political duplicity rather than humanity and ethics. Gillard’s political approach was to retreat to the worst option in the first instance. As I noted exactly a year ago, there are a range of policy options available to provide deterrence, without relying on punishment of the innocent. I’m sure Ad Astra and others here will recall my comments a year ago, because so many called it called “trolling” and Ad Astra implored everyone to ignore me.

Sir Ian Crisp

10/06/2013[quote][b] [...] An academic I knew who had studied apartheid in South Africa once told me that Australian "racism" was based on ignorance rather than a "conscious" racism and was, therefore, easier to counter. The difference is that Australians will generally accept someone once they get to know them, whereas the conscious racism of South Africa meant that a "black" was always discriminated against no matter what. The government should aim to support community forums that bring refugees and new migrants together with other locals to discuss community issues. This would need to start at a "community leaders" level and broaden participation as the leaders brought their communities with them. The broader meetings would focus on particular community issues. It is a chance to allow people to actually have contact and break down stereotypes. Could write an entire two or three page blog on this but had better stop now. Ken [/b][/quote] Australians are ranked as one of the least racist countries in the world. If there is a hint of racism in Australian we will never get rid of it as long as we import Indians, who are ranked up near the top as being racist. [quote] Australia is one of the least racist countries on Earth, according to a survey of global social attitudes. The World Values Survey of 80 countries found Australia ranked alongside New Zealand, Canada, the US, the UK, Sweden, Norway, Latvia and parts of Latin America as more racially tolerant than anywhere else in the world. The least racially tolerant countries were Hong Kong, Bangladesh, Jordan and India, reported the Washington Post, which compiled a data map of the figures. The survey, organised by Sweden-based World Values Survey Association and carried out by social scientists around the world, asked respondents to identify groups of people they would not want as neighbours, listing "people of a different race" as one of the options. In Australia five percent or less of respondents said they would not want to live next to somebody of another race. The study found the most intolerant nation was Hong Kong with 71.8 percent, followed closely by Bangladesh with 71.7 percent, Jordan with 51.4 percent and India with 43.5 percent. [...] http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/2013/05/17/14/37/survey-reveals-most-racist-countries [/quote] The reason we are seen as being racist is because we import racist from different parts of the world. The influx of Sri Lankans - or are they Tamils?- only ensures we won't lose the racist tag because Sri Lankans and Tamils have just concluded a war based on ETHNIC DIFFERENCE; that's race to most people.

el gordo

10/06/2013 'el gordo, save the bullshit for some idiot who believes you.' Where's the fun in that.

lyn

10/06/2013Good Morning Ad, Thankyou for your new article you are our Hero no matter the subject. Also Ad, thankyou so much for your good wishes they mean a lot to me. Moving day is looming, I think the last 2 days are the worst with packing last minute items and the cleaning . Patricia thankyou for your tireless support and your appreciation. I am very sad to hear Tacker is not well. You seem to be doing very well considering the traumatic accident you suffered. Your article is a winner, http://cafewhispers.wordpress.com/ has received a huge response on Twitter more than 17 re-tweets so far. Forget Murdoch it seems our ABC is leading the charge this morning, Barry Cassidy takes the lead he has developed an incredible skill of reading peoples minds. lucky ‏@lol So Barry Cassidy has good sources?? What are they? Tomato? BBQ & honey mustard? #abcnews24

nasking

10/06/2013 [b]The Malaysia solution, irrespective of the reservations some (The Greens for example) had of the likely treatment of asylum seekers in Malaysia was wide open to a High Court challenge in the humble opinion of spectacularly successful refugee advocate David Mann. Irrespective, if implemented it would not have achieved anything more than a reprieve for a relatively small number of asylum seekers at considerable cost to Australia and would quickly have been exhausted. The only 'solution' to this problem starts with telling the truth to Australians which his Labor government did not have the bottle to do. Relatively small numbers of asylum seekers, both in total and arrivals by boat. Nearly all of them genuine refugees fleeing for their lives. Our obligation under international law to treat them humanely etc etc.[/b] GOOD POINTS DOUG. ABBOTT WOULD GET HIS ARSE KICKED IN COURT TOO. HE MIGHT HAVE FRIENDS LIKE KIRBY GIVING ADVICE...BUT THE REALITY IS THE CONSERVATIVES ARE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THIS ISSUE...IN MANY WAYS. COMPENSATION COULD COST BILLIONS. WAKE UP AUSTRALIA. FIND YER LIGHT!!! N'

nasking

10/06/2013 [b]The government should aim to support community forums that bring refugees and new migrants together with other locals to discuss community issues. This would need to start at a "community leaders" level and broaden participation as the leaders brought their communities with them. The broader meetings would focus on particular community issues. It is a chance to allow people to actually have contact and break down stereotypes.[/b] KEN, GOOD IDEA. YOU MAKE USEFUL POINTS ABOVE TOO. ABOUT LOCATION AND PROCESSING. N'

DMW

10/06/2013Doug Evans @ 10:40 PM, an excellent contribution, I dips me lid to you. I will pick you up on point though - [i]I support the commonly expressed view that since little Johnny the Rat pulled his Tampa number on Kim Beasley and caused him to lose the ‘unloseable’ election, the ALP has lacked the courage to confront the ever-present undercurrent of racism that flows in so many Australians.[/i] This commonly held mythconception needs to erradicated from the thinking of all good (and bad) progressives. It is a typical example of learning the wrong lessons from history and it is a major reason that we are where we are on Asylum Seeker/Refugee policy. Had 9/11 not come along Howard would likely have suffered badly for the decision to send the troops to board the Tampa. Howard cleverly used 9/11 to retrospectively justify his actions on the Tampa and tie together border security with irregular maritime arrivals and lump in terrorists for good measure. Had Labor followed the principled lead of the late Peter Andren things would have been very different. (See [b]Opposing John Howard on asylum seekers, and winning | Inside Story[/b] http://goo.gl/5CrJm ) Oh well while we can replay history and hopefully discover new learnings we can't rewrite history though some seem to get away with clever misrepresentations of history.

DMW

10/06/2013There have been some extraordinary and valuable contributions to this discussion so much so that my feeble writings keep getting superceded and/or blown out of the water. It is a great credit to you all. Thank you. I have to go out and attend to (an alleged) real life and will attempt a response later today.

Ken

10/06/2013Doug You talk about discussing the shortcomings in Labor policy but in discussing refugee policy (and I widen that to include other migrants) you ignore the public reaction. Yes, Howard stoked the flames but he did not create it, just fed it. People deal with their communities in a number of ways. It is physically impossible to personally know everybody in an urban community so for people one does not know, one assumes they will behave in certain ways, in accord with the norms of society, and there are stereotypes for groups of "others" which allows one to place them in some sort of category in the community without "knowing" them. That is normal behaviour as long is one is open to accepting individuals that one gets to know. (It becomes racism when that openness to accepting individuals is removed.) For the Anglo-Celts of the western suburbs of Sydney, and even for former migrants who are now integrated into the community, the arrival of groups of refugees/migrants who have different values upsets the equilibrium. It is more difficult to accept them into the community if one can't be sure how they will behave in certain situations because they bring a different set of norms to the situation. They will be stereotyped as "outsiders" because of this. And as I have said previously, the current Islamic jihads and involvement in terrorism only adds to the uncertainty and distrust of the different values. (Won't go into the reasons for the jihads, nor the historic Western role in creating them, but just the fact that they do exist.) Unless we accept that there is disquiet in many communities, we are not addressing the problem. Address that issue and the "boat people" problem is no longer a problem.

nasking

10/06/2013 [b]You got what you demanded - the Pacific Solution was scrapped by your idiotic government of bleeding-heart incompetents - and people predictably started drowning at sea. You are responsible for their deaths, mate. And so is everybody else on this crap-filled site who now employ every measure of sophistry to avoid the truth: your individual and collective policy decisions (demanded by you personally and implemented by the government you chose) have killed over a thousand people, for which all of you are directly responsible, both individually and collectively.[/b] ONE OF THE MOST IGNORANT COMMENTS I'VE EVER READ ON A BLOG... [b]THE REALITY IS WAR, CONFLICT, PERSECUTION, INSECURITY AND THE SEARCH FOR A BETTER LIFE...A BETTER WAY...MOTIVATE ASYLUM SEEKERS...REFUGEES...TO TAKE HUGE RISKS TO GET TO A NEW LAND.[/b] THE BOATS WERE COMING. [b]THE MOVEMENT OF REFUGEES HUGE...SQUEEZING THEM TOGETHER LIKE HERDS LED TO PRESSURE THAT WAS BOUND TO SEE THEM PUSH OUTWARDS FOR FREEDOM... HOWARD AND CO. OBVIOUSLY DID SOME GROTESQUE DEALS WITH THE INDONESIAN GOVT...ALL WILL BE REVEALED IN TIME... BUT THE IDEA THAT A COALITION GOVT WOULD HAVE SEEN NO BOATS COMING FROM 2008 ONWARDS IS LAUGHABLE... THE GFC...SRI LANKAN CONFLICT...BOATS REBUILT IN INDONESIA...THE MASS DISPLACEMENT OF PEOPLE FROM THE ARAB SPRING CONFLICTS AND ONGOING WARS...FLEEING DRONES...THE BUILD UP OF REFUGEES IN CAMPS...THE THREAT OF IRAN BEING BOMBED...THE LIST GOES ON... OF COURSE THEY WOULD HAVE COME.[/b] THINKING OTHERWISE IS [b]DELUSIONAL[/b]. AUSSIES WILL REGRET THESE DAYS THEY HAVE FALLEN PREY, YET AGAIN, TO XENOPHOBIA...PERMITTED THEIR HEARTS TO WILT...ALLOWED THEMSELVES TO BECOME A FRIGHTENED HERD OF BED-WETTERS... AND SO CALLED PRAGMATISTS...THOSE MAKE EXCUSES FOR PARTIES THAT HAVE LITTLE INTEGRITY LEFT... [b]OPPORTUNISTIC CLAPTRAP...[/b] KNOWING FULL WELL [b]THERE WILL NEVER BE ANYTHING BUT FLUID, EVOLVING ANSWERS TO THIS PROBLEM BASED ON DISPLACED PEOPLE MOVEMENT NUMBERS... BASED ON INVOLVEMENT OF PROCESSING AND REFUGEE CAMP COUNTRIES (THE GOALS OF THEIR GOVTS...THE DEALS DONE)... TYPES OF VISAS... WORK NEEDS OF COUNTRIES... END OF CONFLICT IN ORIGIN COUNTRIES... USE OF TRANSPORT...ASSISTANCE OF HUMANITARIAN GROUPS... INFLUENCE OF CHARACTERS IN UN... WHICH JUDGES ARE IN SUPREME COURTS... BRILLIANCE AND TACTICS OF LAWYERS... COST OF COMPENSATION... NATURAL DISASTERS... DETERMINATION OF SOME REFUGEE FAMILIES, INDIVIDUALS... THE COURAGE OF INFLUENTIAL PEOPLE TO STAND TALL AND DRIVE OUT THE PUBLIC FEAR...THE MORAL PANIC...HELP ALL TO FIND THEIR MORE RATIONAL, BETTER SELVES... REDISCOVER EMPATHY.[/b] TO BLAME A CHANGE IN POLICY AWAY FROM NAARU ABUSE...GROTESQUE CONFINEMENT...MENTAL TORTURE...FOR BOAT DEATHS IS JUST PLAIN DISINGENUOUS. YOU CAN'T STOP AN IDEA...WHEN BILLIONS BELIEVE IN IT... THE IDEA...OF GETTING A BETTER LIFE...BY FINDING FRESH AIR...MORE HARMONY...MORE OPPORTUNITIES...MORE SECURITY FOR CHILDREN...IN AUSTRALIA...AND GETTING THERE ANY WAY POSSIBLE. NOW, [b]WILL AUSTRALIA THO LIVE UP TO THE MYTHS[/b]? [b]THE EXPECTATIONS?[/b] N'

Ad astra

10/06/2013Hi Lyn What a splendid collection today. Mr Denmore, as usual, is right on the money. I was taken with these paragraphs: “[i]Objectivity, in this preferred definition, is not a passive concept, but an active one. It becomes an ideal, albeit an impossible one, that journalists work towards. In the meantime, they can focus on the attainable and practical goals of honesty, fairness, accuracy, completeness and complexity. It is not about just "reporting the facts", but ensuring one does not leave out relevant facts. It is also about journalists recognising and accepting the tensions and compromises between their need to impart the reality of a story and their need to stand apart from it.”[/i] And “[i]My own view is that traditional journalism, as it is practised in much of the Anglosphere, leans too much toward traditional objectivity. Journalists fail when they are blind to the influence of the cultural and ideological milieu from which they position their reporting. In a sense, the more they see themselves as standing outside it all, the more they are likely to be comfortably embedded, inside the machine, without being aware of it.”[/i] Which is just what we see, day after day. Victoria Rollison’s piece was hard-hitting, and her conclusion sobering: “[i]If this country wants Murdoch, Rinehart and Abbott’s 1% to decide their futures, they deserve everything they get.”[/i] Andrew Elder is once more telling it the way it is: “[i]"Gillard-haters" like Drag0nista and Leigh Sales are clearly upset. They'd be fine if Rudd was undermining Gillard; they'd be fine if Rudd went to ground, and rendered himself politically inert. Both fit the Abbott's-inevitable-Gillard's-doomed Narrative. Because he's done neither, they play word games with him: do you rule out ... are you leaving the door open for ... Rudd knew in 2007 that playing along with such bullshit is worth nothing in terms of votes. Abbott knows it now, and plays journos like trout on the rare occasions that a) they actually confront him and b) he doesn't walk away. The only thing to do when confronted with that is to shirtfront the interviewer for asking pissant questions, which is what Rudd did this week and what the Prime Minister should do more often.”[/i] Bushfire Bill is always great reading. Robert Macklin puts his finger on it: “[i]The Murdoch press, and the miners, have vilified Labor for their own vested interests. Sadly, their campaign has set the tone for other media outlets. But that could only be effective in a political landscape where something fundamental has changed in the communication business. That’s summed up this week in a memorable phrase from “New York Times” columnist Frank Bruni: [b]“The sideshow swallows the substance”.[/b] (My emphasis) Policies are ignored. Instead, the “news” is all about fripperies, trivia and the seven-second grab. If you doubt it, aside from the gold-plated parental leave scheme – and slashing at least 12,000 public servant jobs – try to think of a single Abbott plan for Australia. Oh, that’s right: “Stop the boats”.”[/i] Oh dear, where has our MSM gone – to the circus to report on the sideshow? The Finnigans’ list is an awful catalogue of hatred. Patriciawa has given us a stirring piece, prefaced by a pome. She concludes: “[i]Because I am in Western Australia I shall soon be privy to the thinking of some of our main stream media commentators as newspapers roll off the press for early morning distribution. I wonder if any of them will be out there ‘telling the truth today?’ Right now when the latest tragedies on the high seas off our coast really needs our government’s fullest attention let’s hope it is not of distracted by more media manipulations looking for a sensationalist headline and a political coup to satisfy their proprietor.”[/i] And so say all of us! Lyn, you have the brilliant ability to pick the eyes out of a piece and present it in your summary. That is of huge value to us all. Thank you.

Miglo

10/06/2013Another great piece, Ad. Is it any wonder that so many of us in the Fifth Estate look up to you?

Ad astra

10/06/2013Hi Lyn Thank you for your kind comment. I hope the move goes well. Judging from your organizing ability and thoroughness, I feel sure it will.

Tom of Melbourne

10/06/2013Ad Astra - [i]” It is for all of these reasons that this blogsite is an enthusiastic supporter of the PM and her Government.[/i]” Then stop pretending otherwise with your tagline. You don’t put [i]“politicians and commentators to the verbal sword”[/i], you do this very selectively, and exclusively to non ALP politicians and commentators. You implore your followers to ignore even non aligned commentators. In the corporate world your tag line would need to be accompanied by a disclaimer - *conditions apply. But not you, you go on pretending. Though in this respect, you’re not alone, as your endorsements indicate.

Ad astra

10/06/2013Folks Thanks to all of you for your comments. Ken, I found myself in strong agreement with you penultimate paragraph: “[i]The government should aim to support community forums that bring refugees and new migrants together with other locals to discuss community issues. This would need to start at a "community leaders" level and broaden participation as the leaders brought their communities with them. The broader meetings would focus on particular community issues. It is a chance to allow people to actually have contact and break down stereotypes.”[/i] I believe that would make a big difference – indeed where it occurred, as in Albany WA, it was a great success. Doug Evans You have given us a comprehensive criticism of the Gillard Government’s approach to asylum-seeker policy. It is in government, and so you have targeted it. I would have preferred, as I indicated in an earlier comment, that we take a generic approach to the issue. Perhaps you would like to counterbalance that critique with a critique of the Coalition policy, and the Greens policy too, as far as we know them.

Ad astra

10/06/2013Miglo Thank you for your generous comment. The feeling is mutual.

nasking

10/06/2013 DOUG EVANS @ June 9. 2013 10:40 PM GOOD WORK. BTW, I WAS READING THIS POST LAST NIGHT: [b]Alternative ways of dealing with asylum seekers By Brian on July 13, 2010[/b] [quote]Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door. That, from Emma Lazarus, is unfortunately not the way it is these days in any country on earth that I know of. Don McMaster in his book Asylum seekers: Australia’s response to refugees finds that unplanned immigration and sudden influxes of asylum seekers arouse fear and anxiety in all advanced industrial societies. In this post we roughly charted Australia’s increasingly harsh response to asylum seekers until some limited softening by the Rudd government. McMaster has a whole chapter on international comparisons. I have found two cases of particular interest – Canada and Sweden. In the former I have drawn from McMaster. The material on Sweden comes mostly from Grant Mitchell who is currently Director of the Secretariat of the International Detention Coalition. In both cases the information available to me is about a decade old and there may have been changes since then. However, the models described are worth considering because they represent an embodiment of humanitarian values that is light years away from what we have in Australia[/quote]... MUCH MORE HERE: http://larvatusprodeo.net/archives/2010/07/alternative-ways-of-dealing-with-asylum-seekers/ N'

Frank

10/06/2013Read David Marr's Political Animal on some Coalition views on boat arrivals. P.73 a "key Liberal party strategist popped into the US embassy in Canberra to say how pleased the party was that refugee boats were, once again, making their way to Christmas Island. "The issue was 'fantastic,'" he said. "And 'the more boats that come the better.'" P.75 'One Liberal MP told the Courier Mail:'"It works incredibly well for us in outer metropolitan electorates."

Jason

10/06/2013ToM (of conditions apply) who posts from the Melbourne ISP address or the one who posts from the Brisbane ISP address? Or is it the one from Indonesia. Bit rich don't you think lecturing others about tag lines?

Capstan

10/06/2013Ad Astra - don't come the raw prawn with me, mate, about my "personal denigration" of the ideological oddities who frequent this curious, strange whirlpool of rusted-on lefty intransigence. The reason I give you lot stick - with great relish - is because of the unbelievably foul and offensive comments you all so readily and effortlessly chuck about with neither embarrassment nor restraint. If you cannot see how unacceptable are the comments made by the likes of 'Nasking, Talk Turkey, Jason et al - well, you need to go and get a new and stronger set of specs for those poor old tired eyes of yours. And you yourself aren’t backwards in coming forth with your own hatred and venom – you silly old hypocrite. And until you lot actually apply the civility and common courtesy you demand of others - it will be my pleasure as well as my duty to arrive here at irregular intervals of my choosing to give you all the caning you so richly deserve. It's your job to police the content of this site, Ad Astra - until you start to crack down on your foul and vulgar regular lefty contributors - do not expect me to lighten up in the slightest. You will get from me precisely that which you allow from others. On to the burning subject at hand - illegal boat arrivals. The vast majority of boat arrivals are [b]not [/b]refugees - they are economic opportunists who are taking advantage of your stupid, bleeding-heart policies that allow them to successfully migrate from a filthy, pestilential Islamic crap-hole such as Iraq, Pakistan, Iran and/or Afghanistan to a wealthy and successful Western nation where they can happily and contentedly suck with gusto and relish off the public teat for as long as they are allowed to get away with it - ON OUR MONEY! EXAMPLE: 95% of Afghans who arrive here are still unemployed and receiving taxpayer-funded benefits five years after arriving here. I know from personal experience how foul Islamic crap-holes can be - as you know, I served in Afghanistan for seven months. I have complete contempt of, and loathing for, the stinking medieval cesspools of corruption that most Islamic nations have always been and will always be – not least because of the inherent nature and values contained within their religion. I have also served in East Timor and have seen the brutality that was shown by muslim Indonesians to the Catholic East Timorese over 25 years. [b]First point:[/b] these tens of thousands of muslims who are flooding into this country because of your policies and decisions have little interest in becoming Australian. What they want is the opportunity to continue their tribal Islamic lifestyle in a country that will fund them beyond what they could even dream of receiving back home - on the public purse. And why wouldn’t they? [b]Second point: [/b]some of these muslims - or some of their children - will obey all the commands in the Koran and associated Islamic texts exhorting and commanding them to attack all those who do not share their islamic beliefs. That, of course, includes other muslims who follow a different Islamic variant - and we see today Sunnis and Shiites attacking each other in Sydney over the Syrian conflict. So we are GUARANTEED to see future attacks on Australian citizens from some of the people you bunch of stupid dipsticks have let into this country. Just like all the deaths at sea for which all of you are personally and directly responsible - so also will you all be personally and directly responsible [b]when [/b]those murders are committed. [b]Third point:[/b] I am absolutely in favour of helping genuine refugees. However, the last lot of genuine refugees who came here were the Vietnamese. Those people fled after the war had ended and the brutal Communist government immediately began to persecute anyone associated with the previous South Vietnamese government. They went to sea in their tens of thousands - they died at sea in their thousands and thousands - and they would have stopped [u]anywhere [/u]in [u]any [/u] country in order to seek refuge. But most Asian nations vigorously and violently prevented them from landing, so some Vietnamese bumped their way southwards until they ended up in Australia. Without a doubt - these people were genuine refugees, and all sympathy to them. Anyone who flees from the tyranny of Communism – the ideology that has murdered more people than any other ideology (and which is fondly regarded by more than a few scumbags on this site) - is a genuine refugee. [b]Fourth point: [/b] But this mainly Islamic rushing of the Australian front gate is completely different. What these people do is fly from Kabul or Pakistan or Iran to a middle-eastern country such as Bahrain, Qatar or the UAE (NOTE: they need passports to do this) before catching a second flight to Malaysia or Indonesia. There they make their way to the main Indonesian people-smuggling ports where they await their turn on a boat. Then it’s off to Christmas Island or other illegal boat arrival destination. Just before they are picked up – they chuck all their passports, identity documents, mobile phones and GPSs overboard in weighted bags which promptly disappear forever into the inky-black depths below. They then parrot their rehearsed lines in order to claim refuge from threats which do not exist. For ten years now we have had liars and spivs barging their way into this country. Pakistanis claiming to be Afghans – Afghans born and bred in Pakistan claiming to be fleeing from the Taliban – Iranians claiming to be at risk – Sri Lankans doing the same – it’s all complete and utter bullshit. They lie and lie and lie – and you lot of soft headed, hand-wringing gullible bleeding hearts swallow it hook line and sinker! People who are genuinely fleeing for their lives do not fly to this country, then to that country, before taking a boat to a selected destination. That is not the behaviour of a refugee – that is the behaviour of a migrant who has made a specific decision about the country to which he would like to move. The Sri Lankans, for example: if Tamils really feared for their lives – wouldn’t it be much easier to take a simple, quick and convenient 35 km boat trip from Sri Lanka to Tamil Nadu in India to escape that threat? There are about 71 million people in Tamil Nadu – and the majority of them are Tamils. Why would a Tamil sail 3,300 km to Australia when they can much more easily travel just 35 km over the water to Tamil Nadu? ANS: because of the rare opportunity they have of migrating into a better country with much more generous benefits – by pretending to be refugees. They want to migrate to Australia and this is their one big chance. Get this through your thick heads – all these illegal boat arrivals are here to grab the opportunity of “back door” migration while it exists – NOT because they are actually at any risk back home. And they know that “back door” opportunity will end as soon as Gillard is sacked and Abbott is elected – which is why the numbers each week are becoming huge. Refugees are people who are in genuine fear of their lives who flee carrying what little they can and who are happy to settle down in the first country that takes sympathy on them and provides them sanctuary. People who fly to a first country, then to a second country, then take a bus into a third country in order to sail to a specifically-selected fourth country where they claim asylum – are frauds. The refugee provisions, treaties and conventions that were settled after WW2 were never meant for this sort of bullshit. Which is why all this fraudulent arrival of “refugees” must be resisted and fought. Refugees my eye – they are fraudsters, liars, con artists and spivs who have taken you lot of idiots along for a complete ride ever since the Krudster was stupid enough to dismantle sensible laws that worked brilliantly. Which is what we Conservatives will do – successfully – when Abbott is elected PM. Yet again, we Conservatives will clean up the stinking mess you stupid, incompetent lefties have left behind.

Michael

10/06/2013I posted the following piece on this blog a year or so back when we were also discussing asylum seekers making their way to Australia. In the light of Ad Astra's lead-off piece, 'what do I think?' is what I thought when I first wrote this piece in the dark days of Howard and Ruddock, who set the template, spat out the vocabulary, and shaped the mealymouthed escape-clauses for Abbott and Morrison. What does it take? To face fear, to defy desperation, To leave a home of hundreds of years and more, To cross wasteland and sea, To trust as far as money can buy the untrustworthy, The calculating, the callous; To gather family and loved ones And leave family and loved ones, To pass the watermarks and landmarks of a whole life For the last time, never to see again The familiar, the known, the certain, To set out completely blind and unhinged From everything that held you in place, In knowledge, however fearful and desperate, That you were somewhere you knew where you were? You have to get out, but every fibre of you Is in this place and is this place; But this place is no longer home, It is prison, it is torture cell, It is a site of victims' wails, And you are a breath, a whisper, a pointed finger From death or worse, and all your loved ones with you - What does it take? What does it take To fabricate fear, to deny desperation, To malign and to decry, to spurn And watch the doubly-unhinged burn? What does it take to stand up in the public places And call the bravely terrified, the terrifiedly brave "liars" and "cheats", "malingerers" and "spongers", "fakers" and "false", "connivers" and "criminals"? What does it take to separate families With barbed wire and even crueler ordinances, To strut before the cameras and spout a doublespeak So doubled over and turned in on and around Itself that the language screams "blood", "horror" - Because of its blandness, its callow reasonableness. Such language can only be the soft sell of harshness; The screams undeniable encased within official denial Louder and louder as denying officials deny softer and softer, Who call on language so denatured by its official use It has become useless for anything but official use Used officially to make truth a casualty as wounded As only truth can be when lies are smoothed to shape As truth's official stand-in on those public podiums Where our guardians stand and protect only themselves - What does it take? What does it take From a country once renowned as the home of fellowship The wide brown land of wide open arms And disarming smiles, the land of broad welcome And long into the night talk and laughter and cheer, The land that looked outwards to find itself And saw that where it was and who it was was fine, And good, a place to live, a place to thrive, A place to stand in as our own people from wherever we came, A place shaped by arrivals, successive and enriching, From 60,000 years on till the latest plane and boat Arriving, and within them, new arrivals, bringing Hope and love and courage and desire and skill and will And family and history and promise and future and bright Bright expectations to rise, to exceed, to find a place As placed as they had been in the places they had been, A new place, a fresh place, a place to set down soft roots Torn from the hard ground of older places now denied them Or left behind with sorrow, but left behind because the leaving, The leaving is a making, a making... What does it take, What does it take from us, if we deny, If we band behind the deniers, denying that we are, But denying all the same? Inside, the denial shrivels and shrinks us through and through, Squeezes out our open-heartedness, and we die as we deny, We fade as we deny, we are left alive with spite alone to drive us Further into denial, until we become anyone's fools, And the professional deniers have made us their instruments Of pettiness and self-interest, that has nothing to do with us Except that they can point, the famous men and women, When the biographers come, to a greater will they did no more Than serve. If we do no more, the lie thrives, it blossoms, Its fetid blooms intoxicate and befuddle us, till we, Inhabiting a land of freedom and openness and care and concern Have been made a camp of jailers and torturers, Our names embossed as Citizen This, Citizen That, Sponsoring each tearing barb, each slicing edge of wire, Each tossing thrust of water cannon, Every clip around an ear, laugh in the face, spurning of aid, Queue kept waiting, door kept closed, gate made electrified. That is not us, and that is not this land, Unless we let ourselves be made this way, trooping deniers, Unblinded eyes turned away, ears pummelled to insensitivity By denial, plausible and righteous, easy and comforting. What does it take? Do you live here? Has your family always lived here? Do you know this place? Have you any idea what lies out your door? Of course you do. You've lived here long enough. You know this place of all the places you've ever been, Been around the world and never happier than come home. That is this land, that was this land, a place of making And remaking and renewal and unexpected coinings of the familiar, Where change has come and made us all changed and broader And new and bright with expectation of the next 'new', The brighter tomorrow, the times to come of love And courage and hope and the everyday expectations, The breath of every day, family and friends and loved ones And new of all of them, the expected unexpected Across colour, culture, gender, belief, the thousand differences That are all the same because difference is the engine That makes the unfamiliar familiar, Makes frightening novel and then, as regular As pizza and felafel and kung fu and bocce and strudel... And you know exactly what I mean, and how it is, And how it was, and never really was because was is always, Always becoming the new is, that is the is that will become Was, and then is, and doesn't stop, because we are all Human's being, and the being is us and the being makes us And the being is enriched by the new us being around And being new to us and familiar to us and then, us; And we are all what we are because of what we are, And the are we are is made by all those who join us To become, 'sun bronzed we', 'wide brown land we', 'Sweeping plains we', 'tall towering cities we', The we we all know and know as us and recognise In every unknown face becoming we by joining us. Then we are What we were and will be, welcoming we - "join us, Settle in although at first it will all be unfamiliar, Frightening, there will be desperate days, unhinging times, Times when even the horror and fear and imminent shock Of left-behind home will seem preferable to what you have found: We've all been there, the great wide land of people we are". We, us, we must remember how it was and can be, So that when those new faces, frightened, desperate, appear, We see ourselves, our selves in a thousand unknown faces, And in them and in us find the same things, Love, courage, hope, belief, and desperate trust That we have all come home. What little this much takes of us.

Ad astra

10/06/2013Michael Thank you for your heartfelt contribution - a magnificent piece of writing. I empathize with you concluding lines: [i]"We've all been there, the great wide land of people we are.
 We, us, we must remember how it was and can be,
 So that when those new faces, frightened, desperate, appear,
 We see ourselves, our selves in a thousand unknown faces,
 And in them and in us find the same things,
 Love, courage, hope, belief, and desperate trust
 That we have all come home."[/i] What a contrast your feelings are to those of Capstan, who begins his latest tirade with angry condemnation of we who comment here, whom he regards as ‘lefty’ morons, and his even more vitriolic denunciation of asylum-seekers in general. His attitude is the reality among many in the electorate. Is it any wonder that implementing a humane policy is such an intractable problem? His contribution give us a useful insight into the way many people regard our current set of asylum seekers.

Ad astra

10/06/2013nasking I did enjoy the verse you quoted: “[i]Give me your tired, your poor,

 Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,

 I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”[/i] Beware though that this will confirm in Capstan’s mind that we here really are just as he describes us: ‘stupid incompetent lefties’.

nasking

10/06/2013 FRANK, INTERESTING STUFF FROM MARR. MY VIEW: WHEN VOTERS PERMIT THEMSELVES TO BE DISTRACTED BY FEAR-MONGERING OVER ASYLUM SEEKERS THEY FIND THEMSELVES LOOKING AWAY FROM THE SLY THEFT OF THEIR WAGES, CONDITIONS...THEY MISS THE PLAN TO RAISE AND BROADEN THE GST...THE ESTABLISHMENT OF PRIVATE PRISONS AND AN INTRUSIVE SECURITY APPARATUS...THE UNDERMINING OF AGED AND DISABILITY PENSIONS. THEY MISS THE REAL DARKNESS COMING. I BELIEVE MANY WILL EVENTUALLY OPEN THEIR EYES. DO THE RIGHT THING...WHICH IS NOT HOWARD, ABBOTT RIGHT. N'

Capstan

10/06/2013Ad astra - try to actually resemble the wise old man you portray yourself as being. I support genuine refugees. The Vietnamese were genuine refugees. Fraudsters who catch a variety of planes to a variety of countries before specifically sailing to Australian territory - and who deliberately destroy their identification documents just before they are "rescued" - are not refugees. They are liars. And it is only you stupid, pathetic, predictable lefty bleeding hearts who are effortlessly sucked in every time. There is no fool like an old fool - you got that, Ad astra? Never mind - we Conservatives will sort it out when Tony is elected PM. PS - here's an email I just received: [i]"I've had a fairly reliable that by this time tomorrow, Julia will be gone.................."[/i]

nasking

10/06/2013 [b]migrate from a filthy, pestilential Islamic crap-hole such as Iraq, Pakistan, Iran and/or Afghanistan to a wealthy and successful Western nation where they can happily and contentedly suck with gusto and relish off the public teat for as long as they are allowed to get away with it - ON OUR MONEY![/b] CAPSTAN, YET AGAIN YOU HAVE PROVED YOURSELF TO BE A NASTY CHARACTER. IF YOU DID FIGHT OVER THERE...YOU DIDN'T DO IT IN MY NAME...NOR MANY OTHER AUSSIES I SUSPECT. YOUR ATTITUDE IS WHAT LEADS TO OTHER COUNTRIES LOSING TRUST IN THE SO CALLED WEST...AND AS BEEN ESPOUSED BY EVEN THOSE WHO HAVE MASSACRED INNOCENTS DURING THESE DISGUSTING WARS...INVASIONS. FRANKLY, IF YOU ARE THE KIND OF CHARACTER OUR MILITARY LETS IN AND SUPPORTS I QUESTION THEIR INTEGRITY...AND VETTING PROCESS. HOWEVER, I PREFER TO DOUBT YOUR INTEGRITY. IT'S POSSIBLE YER A LIBERAL PARTY OR MURDOCH SPINNER. THE HATRED YOU HAVE DEMONSTRATED TELLS ME A GREAT DEAL ABOUT SOME OF THOSE BACKING TONY ABBOTT. THE WELFARE I WORRY ABOUT EVERY DAY IS THAT GOING TO FOSSIL FUEL CORPORATIONS...AND THE TAX DODGING OF THOSE MULTINATIONAL CORPORATION WHO HAVE COME TO SUCK THE LIFEBLOOD OUT OF THIS COUNTRY...AS THEY HAVE MANY OTHERS... MULTINATIONAL CORPORATIONS WHO USE OUR POLITICAL REPRESENTATIVES AS PUPPETS...AND UTILISE THEIR CORPORATE MEDIA AND SAID POLITICIANS TO CREATE AND MANUFACTURE VILE XENOPHOBIC AND RACIST CAMPAIGNS... TO KEEP THE VOTERS LOOKING THE OTHER WAY...AS THE RAPE, PILLAGE AND PLUNDER... TRY TO GET THEM TO VOTE...THE WRONG WAY...AS THEY LAUGH ALL THE WAY TO THEIR BANKS. CAPSTAN, YOU REMIND ME OF THOSE FANATICS WHO RAN THE SPANISH INQUISITION. N'

Catching up

10/06/2013Does anyone really believe that the boats would not resume under Howard. Howard did not believe this, himself, otherwise why commit hundreds of millions of dollars, building the complex on Christmas Island. I believe, that Rudd erred in cutting this programme back. The reality is, regardless of the actions of Rudd, responding to the public demand, has little to do with the resumption of the boats trade. Well that is what those in the know and the experts in the filed say. The flow of refugees wanes and waxes for many different reasons of the time. There was a world wide reduction in the days of Howard. Still, what occurred then, has noting to do with what is occurring now. Yes, we have back in place, a harsher and crueler form of the Pacific Solution. It is not working. How can bringing in temporary visas over bridging visas make much different. In fact the bridging visa, with none being assessed for permanent visa is indeed crueler. Offers no hope. Does not allow them to work, or bringing other family members. Leaves all in Limbo for up to an decade at least. Is cruel and expensive, both in money and peoples lives. Turning back the boats is impossible. Even Howard came to that conclusion, and quickly dropped the action. What we now have, is many of the Sri Lankans being quickly returned by plane. Those Sri Lankans are still coming, in spite of their government doing everything in their power to stop the boats. Carr, said yesterday, we have a new fact of many coming from Iran, that are not claiming to be tortured. Did not say how we are dealing with these people, but I suspect, they will also find themselves on plane home, or will quickly make that decision, when the prospect of being on bridging visas sink in. The people are still coming, in spite of the number of boats that have sunk, and the many that have died. We even have examples, of some sent back, after being on the sinking boats, coming back against. How do you stop people, who desperation makes them acts. We now have eleven thousands, that have come this years, that are not being assessed for permanent visas. How would temporary visas be any harsher. It is time for the parties to go back to the table, and start addressing the matter in a bipartisan manner. Time to sit around the table with the expert panel, and others invoked. Time to stop the politics. If people drowning, does not stop them coming, what will. We need the mechanism to assess them in the countries, they are leaving in tjhose boats from. Abbott's pan to cut the numbers by six thousand from those shores will only add to the problem. Yes, amybe, we have to take more. Maybe we also need a safe mechanism, to send many more back to their countries, if safe. I would go further, to ensure they are safe. How many more will take that treacherous route, when one looks at our troops moving out, and events, in Afghan today. Many, that we owe a debt too. Who have placed themselves at risk, supporting out troops. Yes, the numbers are more likely top grow, than decrease, when one looks at the events of the middle east. Yes, we all should be ashame, of how we treat refugees today. Noe have anything to be proud of. Yes, it is time for the PM to give it one more go. I am buggered if I know what more she can do, unless Abbott puts politics aside and comes to the table. The PM has already gone much too far, Abbott's way, only to have made things worse. Abbott need to put the slogans aside, and listen to the experts, and what is happening today. What they did ten years ago, is immaterial. Yes, this is Labor's biggest failure. Not because they kept their election promise for a fairer system, but because circumstances have changed.

Capstan

10/06/2013I just noticed this. Ad astra says: [i]"Is it any wonder that implementing a humane policy is such an intractable problem?"[/i] Mate, if you had any intellectual honesty and decency, you would admit with profound humility, remorse and shame that the ALP "humans policy" that has been in force since the Krudster dumped Howard's Pacific Solution on 8 Feb 2008 has: (a) directly led to the deaths of over 1,000 people at sea since that date, and (b) led to over 40,000 mainly muslims barge their way into this country - the vast majority of whom would never be allowed in because of a variety of reasons, including lack of skills and potential employability. There is nothing humane in policies that cause death, misery and long-term social disruption. That is stupidity - not humanity. But then again - the ALP has always excelled in policy stupidity of staggering proportions. How many houses caught fire from ALP-supplied insulation? And how many workers died installing it? Just one example from the Great ALP Book of Policy Stupidity.

nasking

10/06/2013 [b]Does anyone really believe that the boats would not resume under Howard. Howard did not believe this, himself, otherwise why commit hundreds of millions of dollars, building the complex on Christmas Island. [/b] CU, EXACTLY. I HAVE OFTEN POINTED THIS OUT. IT DEMONSTRATES THE HOWARD GOVT WAS LYING...YOU DON'T BUILD AND EXPAND LIKE THAT WITHOUT REASON. UNLESS OF COURSE JOHN HOWARD WAS HOPING TO IMPRISON THE POLITICAL,OPPOSITION, THOSE WHO OPPOSED HIS VIEWS? I DOUBT IT. MORE LIKE HIS GOVT WAS EXPECTING MORE ASYLUM SEEKERS. OF COURSE, HONEST JOHN WILL TELL US OTHERWISE... JUST LIKE 'CHILDREN OVERBOARD' REITH... AND GST IS WONDERFUL COSTELLO WHO LOST BILLIONS IN CURRENCY TRANSACTIONS... AND MR ROLLED GOLD PROMISE ABBOTT WHOSE WE WORD WE CAN'T TRUST UNLESS IT'S WRITTEN DOWN...AND REVISED. :D N'

nasking

10/06/2013 sorry, having big trouble with eyes today. N'

nasking

10/06/2013 YES CAPSTAN...THIS LAD PERMITTED HIMSELF TO BE IMPRISONED AND ABUSED...FOR THE MONEY: [b]In 2006 the federal government made a $400,000 compensation payout to an 11-year-old Iranian boy for the psychological harm he suffered while being detained in Woomera and Villawood detention centres between 2000 and 2002[/b] WIKIPEDIA BUT OF COURSE IT'S YOUR NEO-CON...AND I MEAN [b]'CON[/b]' MOB WHO NOW WANT TO RESCUE THE CHILDREN OF IRAN FROM THEIR OPPRESSORS. HMMM... N'

Ken

10/06/2013Catstain oops castpan Cpastan oh well, close enough! Wrong facts as usual. Statistical analysis showed there were actually less house fires overall when the insulation program was rolled out. No doubt because people who had faulty or old wiring had that discovered during the insulation process. If you want to be moronic at least do so with decent facts.

Catching up

10/06/2013We need to address the problem, not as some are trying to divert us from. It is a fact of life, one, that cannot be walked away from, it is the continuous waves of refugees since the second great war, that has made this country, the wonderful place it is. It is time we stopped seeing these people as being a danger to us. They have as much to offer us, as we do to them. These are not uneducated swill from the dregs of theeing society. Many are well educated, middle class, with many of the skills this country lacks. It is time for all of us to grow up. PS There will be few bad eggs, as there are in all groups of human beings. I am sure, as in the past, we will have little problem dealing with them. I have this theory, that the bad eggs would receive less scrutiny if thy came by plane. Could not imagine many of them, wanting to be trapped behind wire, with genuine refugees. Woulds suspect, that would not be a safe place for them to be.

Capstan

10/06/2013'Nasking and CU - did you blokes each have a double helping of stupid pills this morning? Or are you both simply delusional? Here is the graph that says it all: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/BoatArrivals.gif Look at where the graph goes flat: just after John Howard introduced the Pacific Solution – a solution that actually worked. Look at where it takes off like a rocket again: as soon as terminal knucklehead Krudster got rid of the Pacific Solution (using Chief Architect Gillard’s plan, of course). It takes really, really committed delusion to come up with a conclusion that the boat arrivals were going to happen again anyway – as you are suggesting. Or perhaps it was all just a strange coincidence? A conspiracy, perhaps? That’s it! It was a Conservative conspiracy! We Conservatives are responsible for the tsunami of boat arrivals – and we did it deliberately to undermine Joolia’s credibility. You’ll believe that one too, won’t you?

Catching up

10/06/2013If one had some means and ability to by pass those first camps with millions abed long waiting list, would not one move on with your family. Even knowing, when you reached Malaysia and Indonesia, you would not be welcome. Knowing you had to get on that leaky BOAT. Not much of a choice, I would say. Decades in a refugee camp, or the dangerous journey in a boats. I am sure most already here friends and rellies trapped both in the nearest camp, and our near neighbours. They keep coming, knowing the dangers, and ignoring the warnigs of relations already here. The reality to this problem, is making their own countries safe, We all know how hard that is, but it is the only way, refugees will stop coming. We all know how likely that is too happen, but we must not give up trying. Seeing the economic miracle going on in the Asian region, does give us some hope. Maybe down the track, we might see some respite from the emergence of the Arab spring. One can only hope, while concentrating on the people caught up in the horror at this time. There is no simple answer. There is no permanent answer. PS. There is also no votes in this human misery for either party.

nasking

10/06/2013 LET'S DEAL WITH CAPSTAN'S COMMENT: [b]For ten years now we have had liars and spivs barging their way into this country. Pakistanis claiming to be Afghans – Afghans born and bred in Pakistan claiming to be fleeing from the Taliban[/b] NOTE...DURING THE HOWARD YEARS: Most of the asylum seekers came from Afghanistan ([b]largely of the Hazara ethnic group)[/b] WIKIPEDIA THE LAST FEW YEARS: As a consequence of the attacks, and the alleged impunity by wich they are perpetrated, there has been a recent exodus of Hazaras trying to flee the violence. They are headed mainly to Australia, where thousands of them have successfully relocated after obtaining refugee status. To get there, they complete an illegal and treacherous journey across Southeast Asia through air, land and sea that has already left hundreds of them dead.[/b] [b]In recent years, the persecution of Hazaras in Quetta has left at least 800 dead and more than 1500 wounded. the victims include high-profile community members, laborers, women and children One third of the victims are children. No one has yet been arrested for these murders[/b] The major attacks included assassinations of Hussain Ali Yousafi, Olympia Abrar Hussain, bombing of a Hazara mosque, Ashura massacre, Quds Day bombing, Play ground massacre, Mastung massacre and Akhtarabad massacre. [b]The Al-Qaeda affiliated Pakistani Sunni Muslim extremist militant group Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, has claimed responsibility for most of these attacks. Other theories suggest the involvement of Taliban's Quetta Shura,[20] and Pakistani military establishment, as most of the terrorist organizations in Pakistan are allegedly supported by the country's military. It is also suggested that the country's security establishment might be trying to provoke the Hazara against other ethnic groups in the province.[/b] In response to these killings, worldwide demonstrations were held to condemn the persecution of Hazaras in Quetta. [b]The Hazara diaspora all over the world, namely in Australia, Western Europe, North America as well as the Hazara in Afghanistan, have protested against these killings and against the silence of international community. [/b] Haji Mohammad Mohaqiq, the political leader of the Hazara in Afghanistan, has also expressed solidarity with the Hazara community in Quetta. [b]The persecutions have been documented by the United Nations, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Asian Human Rights Commission, Human Rights Commission of Pakistan and Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. [/b] EU parliamentarian Rita Borsellino has urged the international community to address the plight of Hazara people in Quetta. The members of British Parliament, Alistair Burt, Mark Lancaster, Alan Johnson, and Iain Stewart asked the government to pressure Pakistani authorities concerning the absence of justice for Hazara community in Pakistan. WIKIPEDIA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hazara_people YEA CAPSTAN...THEY'RE JUST COMING FOR THE MONEY. I'D LIKE TO HEAR THE VIEWS OF SOME IN THE MILITARY WHO ACTUALLY HELPED AND BEFRIENDED THESE PEOPLE. N'

nasking

10/06/2013 [b]Persecution of Hazara people[/b] [b]The Al-Qaeda affiliated Pakistani Sunni Muslim extremist militant group Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, has claimed responsibility for most of these attacks.[/b] I THOUGHT PREVENTING TERRORISM BY AL-QAEDA AND AFFILIATES WAS WHAT THIS WAR ON TERROR WAS MUCH ABOUT? YET THE LIKES OF CAPSTAN VILIFY THEIR VICTIMS. TELLS ME A GREAT DEAL ABOUT THE OPPORTUNISTIC BLOODY-MINDEDNESS OF THE ABBOTT SUPPORTERS. ANYTHING GOES EH? STAB ANYONE IN THE BACK...EVEN THOSE YOU PURPORT TO BE SAVING. NUTTY RELIGIOUS CRUSADERS AND CORPORATE NEO-CON SCHEMERS AND CON-ARTISTS...WAVING EXTREME NATIONALIST FLAGS...AND DOG WHISTLING DESPERATELY...TO TRY AND COVER THE FACT THEY HAVE A CRAP CANDIDATE IN ABBOTT... AND DISTRACT FROM THEIR DESIRE TO TURN US ALL INTO OBEDIENT HIGHLY INDEBTED SERFS. -------- WE ARE...NO LONGER EYES WIDE SHUT. N'

Catching up

10/06/2013Capstan, began to read your comment, but quickly realised, it is only the same spiel, word for word that I ave been hearing since the influx of refugees that came after WWW 11 and in waves ever since. History, over time, has found it all to be wrong. These people quickly disappear into the fabric of our society, adding to it's rich texture on the way. I have a theory, that humans have an innate desire to be part of the community they reside in. No one likes standing out. No one likes to be seen as different. Well when one looks at how quickly each wave disappears from sight, something must be going on. Racism, I cannot understand. We are all humans, with the same basic needs and beliefs. That is to love our kids, and be a success within out lives. We all eat, sleep and love to have fun. Most live and let live. I say most, as racist seem to want it all their own way, as if they are superior. Diversion in food, clothes and culture, makes for a more exciting community.

Patriciawa

10/06/2013Michael, like Ad Astra I was moved by the compassion and empathy in your submission compared with the meanness of spirit shown by Capstan. Thank you. You remind me of thoughts I had recently walking past the maritime museum here in Fremantle. It's housed in one of original old limestone buildings on the beach, just at the end of the High street here! On the grass outside were several huge black iron anchors, relics of shipwrecks on our shores, reminders of the many who lost their lives coming here in the past. I thought then of the courage of people who in the past took to the sea and travelled around the world in crowded and unsafe ships for want of choice of employment or in search of a better life. Are those first arrivals who made it safely to these shores likely to have worried about the color of skin or the religion of other survivors who eventually became their neighbours? It seems it's only when they get safely settled and securely housed that people develop a siege mentality and want to repel newcomers. I think those very first settlers would have understood what we now need to [i]....... remember how it was and can be,
 So that when those new faces, frightened, desperate, appear,
 We see ourselves, our selves in a thousand unknown faces,
 And in them and in us find the same things,
 Love, courage, hope, belief, and desperate trust
 That we have all come home." [/i]

Catching up

10/06/2013Nasking, we must be succeeding in getting our point across. I see we are getting the abuse that always comes, when one is successful. It appears it is our lack of intelligence, or worse we are on the slops. At least we are not putting forwarded lies to back our views. Keep up the good work.

Catching up

10/06/2013Capstan, what are you on. No one has said, that there was a fall in the number of boats during Howard's time. All that has been said, maybe he was just plain lucky. We know that Howard expected the boats trade to resume. Why build Christmas Island, if this was not his belief. What we are saying where is the proof, if Howard was not thrown out, the boats would once again come. By the way, one of the reason he was thrown out, was because of the Pacific Solution. Court decisions since, would have disbanded what Howard did. Howard's scheme was to prevent people from having access to legal advice. Many find big problems with this. Capstan were is your proof, that the boat trade would not have resumed, no matter who was in power. Saying that, it is immaterial, as todays circumstan By the way, all experts in the fie;d said that bringing back the Pacific Solution, was ot the way to go. All we have done, is waste 12 months, put lives at risk, and spent millions of dollars unnecessarily. The likes of Capstan and the Opposition still want to keep their heads in the sand, ignoring the reality about them. I firmly believe that Abbott and Morrison are happy to see those boats that keep coming, the more that sink, the better.

nasking

10/06/2013 AS FOR THE PACIFIC SOLUTION DEFINITELY STOPPING THE BOATS...I THINK WE NEED TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT: - SECRET DEALS DONE WITH INDONESIAN GOVT - 2002 & 2005 BALI AND 2004 JAKARTA BOMBINGS...WHAT WAS OFFERED TO THE INDONESIAN GOVT? - 2004 ASIAN TSUNAMI...WIPING OUT SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF BOATS OFF INDONESIAN AND SRI LANKAN COASTS... - SRI LANKAN GOVT ATTEMPT TO WIPE OUT TAMILS...TAKING OVER KEY LANDS...PUSHING MANY TO FLEE 2006 - 2009 - PERSECUTIONS IN PAKISTAN AND FEAR INCREASING WITH DRONE ATTACKS...MORE FLEEING... NOT AS SIMPLE AS THE COALITION MAKE IT LOOK. INTERESTING THAT SOME WHO APPARENTLY MOTIVATED THE BALI, JAKARTA BOMBERS ARE STILL WALKING AROUND LIKE HEROES.. WHILST WAR CRIMES PRESIDENT OF INDONESIA WHO LIVED IN AMERICA LETS BOAT AFTER BOAT COME. N'

nasking

10/06/2013 [b]Keep up the good work.[/b] CU, YOU TOO. WE'VE BEEN DOWN THIS UGLY ROAD BEFORE EH? USED TO IT. N'

Austin 3:16

10/06/2013Hey Catching Up, Since Chinese immigrants first arrived at the gold-fields there's always been somebody to vilify them. It's a problem that's not going away more's the pity.

nasking

10/06/2013 CAPSTAN WROTE: (a) [b]directly led to the deaths of over 1,000 people at sea since that date[/b] FLEEING PERSECUTION CAN LEAD PEOPLE TO DEAL WITH CORRUPT PEOPLE. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOW MANY BILLIONS WERE SPENT ON JOHN HOWARD & GW BUSH'S UGLY...PEOPLE DISPLACING...WARS? KNOW THIS...JUST FROM THE IRAQ WAR: [b]Number Of Iraqis Slaughtered In US War And Occupation Of Iraq "1,455,590"[/b] [b]Number of U.S. Military Personnel Sacrificed (Officially acknowledged) In U.S. War And Occupation Of Iraq 4,801[/b] [b]Number Of International Occupation Force Troops Slaughtered In Afghanistan : 3,333[/b] GAWD KNOW HOW MANY THOUSANDS UPON THOUSAND OF WOUNDED...SUICIDES...POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDERED...DEPRESSED??? YES,,SADLY ASYLUM SEEKERS PERISH... [b]RUNNING OFT AS DISPLACED PEOPLE FROM THE TERROR BROUGHT TO US BY [/b] [b]WAR ON TERROR INC[/b] N'

Catching up

10/06/2013Nasking, I seem to be going down this road since the 1970's . Would like to add I raised my kids in Guildford, live and worked in the Villawood area from the 1960's and spent a couple of years, in Cabramatta, in the 1990's. Yes, and worked from the 1980's in the Liverpool area, in a office made up mostly of those from overseas. In fact I worked in DOC's. Not many clients from those who cam as refugees. Mostly white Australians. I am afraid. As a child, in the late 1940-50's, due to family illness, spent much time in the city of Sydney, often staying at Matraville, I seen first hand the racism handed out to the refugee from war torn Europe, in fact, I am ashamed to say, joined in. Was a very young child then. It was the generosity of refugees that assisted my mother, and moved into eh flatettes she had in Annandale area, plus a very wise maternal grandpa , whose father was born in France, that bough me to my senses. Of course, another tenanted, that let off a stink bomb, nearly killed the new baby did help. A baby, these traumatized parents had to celebrate the arrival in this new country. Yes, I have seen and lived the both sides of this debate. Lyndal Curtis, is putting the same argument, as we have. Circumstance are different. Yes, Capstan spiel is nothing new., Has been used against every wave of newcomers, we have seen since the 1940's.

Catching up

10/06/2013Austin, yes, the same vilification, but history shows, it only seems to last, until the next wave comes. Who would vilify aGreek, Italian or Maltese now?

el gordo

10/06/2013'I reject the ideology, the policies, and the plans of the alternative government, which are anathema to me.' Fair enough, but would Labor still get your vote if Kevin gets back the big seat before the election? I'm doing a straw poll.

Catching up

10/06/2013No Capstan, he would not. It would be as vote for Murdoch, not Labor. We are not the fools you see us to be. We know who we are voting for. I wonder if one casts a vote for the Coalition, if that is true. Does one really expect Abbott to be around for long.

Catching up

10/06/2013Sadly this is true. "............Politics is nothing if not a mirror of the society it serves … that it, in every sense, represents. We provide the clay they work with. If there wasn’t a vote in hate, fear and prejudice then there would be no gain in pandering to any of them. The great Australian shame is that not only are there votes to be had here, but that this is the heartland in which our political game is lost and won... http://theantibogan.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/australias-political-heartland-hate-fear-prejudice/

Ad astra

10/06/2013nasking, Catching up, Patriciawa, Ken Thank you for taking the time to rebut the young Capstan, not-long-ago-a-soldier, who, referring to me, says: “[i]There is no fool like an old fool”[/i]. Perhaps the reverse is true here: [i]There is no fool like a young fool[/i]. Having read that he approved of Vietnam refugees, I careful worded my comment: “[i]His contribution gives us a useful insight into the way many people regard our [b]current set of asylum seekers[/b]. [/i] In his haste he must have missed that. Never mind, none of us are perfect.

Jason

10/06/2013Fair enough, but would Labor still get your vote if Kevin gets back the big seat before the election? I'm doing a straw poll. el gordo No! and I'd resign from the ALP as well!

Capstan

10/06/2013Catching Up - you are the fools who demanded the scrapping of Howard's Pacific Solution - you are the fools who cheered when the Rudd / Gillard replacement plan was introduced. [b]You are responsible for the deaths of over a thousand people at sea [/b]- and you have the f#cking hide to ignore that very real fact.

Catching up

10/06/2013Funny, I will always go for justice and fairness over self serving desires. Capstan, prove the boats would not have resumed, if Howard remained in power. You ignore the facts, that circumstance has changed since a decade ago. Same goes for the global economy as well, along with the new world order. All facts, that the other side of the fence ignore. We have a PM that talks about the future, the other that wants to takes us back to the dark ages. It takes much more, that we did it before.

Catching up

10/06/2013NO, I believe it is the war in their own country that is the cause. Not too sure if oiur intervention has not made things worse.

Catching up

10/06/2013I seem to remember,locking up Australian citizens in the camps and even deporting one or two Australian citizens, , did not help their cause. Attacking Doctor Haneef, was poor form as well.

Ken

10/06/2013Catching Up Just on your comment that each wave of migration has led to problems. That is partly the point of a couple of my ealier posts. While I was explaining that I understand the social reasons for people being uncomfortable with new arrivals, because they bring different values, it is, as you say, also true that within a generation or two that changes. Both sides adapt to the new circumstances - as I mentioned in the previous thread, goat meat became available in local shops to overcome the problem of the, then, new migrants slaughtering goats in their units. AS you say, Australia has been immensely enriched by the various waves of immigrants (often refugees) and each wave has experienced a period of turmoil. As a social anthropologist, I see nothing wrong with that - it is a normal social development. If only governments could take a longer term view. And I definitely blame Howard for creating the current situation. If the government had used a "low profile" approach, processed people, and released them into the community and provided support to the communities (not just the refugees), it could have let normal social evolution take its course - but no, he had to make a major political issue out of it and we are still living with the consequences. Abbott has continued the process, not allowing time for the normal social processes to take root.

Catching up

10/06/2013Howard had a very simple approach to politics. Divide and rule. One does this by using fear. Was the basis of all his actions. Sadly, it works, but divides the community, and leads to as nasty, self centered society. All he had to do, was stick the what occurred previously, under Fraser. Not good enough for Howard, the innate bully, like Abbott. Do not forget, Abbott was his chief head kicker, and proud of it. Most of those waves, were indeed refugees. All fleeing from corrupt regimes, many propped up by the USA and the west. Most where colonies of the west. Nothing occurs in a vacuum.

el gordo

10/06/2013 Thanx Jason, anyone else care to comment?

Doug Evans

10/06/2013Ken "Unless we accept that there is disquiet in many communities, we are not addressing the problem. Address that issue and the "boat people" problem is no longer a problem." Couldn't agree more. Where was the leadership required from the Gillard government on this issue? The community meetings? The letterboxing campaigns etc? Governments can choose to lead on issues when it seems important. In the past public sentiment around difficult issues has often been changed by clear leadership from a government. To fix this problem the government needs to do the right thing by the asylum seekers, refugees, immigrants whatever you wish to call them simultaneously with leading the public in the direction they actually know they should be heading. Instead of mimicking John Howard by stroking the xenophobic sentiments of misinformed citizens with a series of 'I understand your concerns' Julia Gillard clearly should have (in the nicest possible way) confronted them. 'I understand your concerns BUT here is why they are misplaced, THIS is what is really happening and THIS is what we are doing.' Where was the necessary leadership on the issue? Instead of running ten steps behind the misconceptions and/or deceit that is deployed against people who are not like us the government should have been standing in front of the crowd pointing the way. Also on reflection it may be that I have used the 'r' word too carelessly. Probably the 'x' word xenophobia is more widespread and typical. To me racism implies hatred of the 'other' but xenophobia implies fear which like all phobias can be addressed, ameliorated and even eradicated. Ad Astra I'm really not competent to do what you ask. I think targeting the Gillard government is justifiable for at least two obvious reasons. 1. They are the government. They put the laws in place. The responsibility is theirs. When Howard was in government he quite rightly copped the flak. If Abbott had been in government he would deserve the same level of scrutiny and criticism as is directed against the Gillard government. 2. The Labor brand depends to a large extent on claims to be the party of social justice and fairness. When, as in this case they fail so comprehensively to live up to this fundamental aspect of their party's ethos. It is incumbent on commentators to draw attention to it. On the other hand I understand the LNP as the Parties of entrenched privilege, wealth and power. I EXPECT this sort of discrimination from them. Openly pandering to the lowest common denominator in our collective psyche they have delivered this before and are promising to deliver it again. On the necessity for a corresponding critique of coalition and Greens policies: There is a slightly uncomfortable feel about the request as if a verdict of no worse than the other parties might justify (partially excuse) inadequacies in the government's response. Nevertheless: The coalition policy, despite possible variations in detail, is to me so similar to the Labor policy that I would have thought it would be widely understood that the same criticisms should be applied. The Greens. I could not say much about on this issue without spending a good deal of time re-constructing the sequence of events over the last three years. However for what it is worth. This is what I found when I googled up the Greens policies on this topic. So this may be a new experience for many. Actually reading a Greens policy rather than guessing at their probable content. Greens Principles on Immigration and Refugees The Australian Greens believe that: Australia’s cultural, ethnic and linguistic diversity should be celebrated for greatly enriching our society and economy, and this diversity is enhanced by the immigration of people to Australia. Immigration must be non-discriminatory on the grounds of nationality, ethnicity, religion, language, gender, disability, sexuality, age or socioeconomic background. Australia must enact its humanitarian and legal obligations to asylum seekers and refugees and reunite families under the international customary law and the Refugee Convention 1951 and its Protocol. Seeking asylum is a humanitarian issue rather than an issue of border security or defence, and people seeking asylum must be treated with compassion and dignity. As signatory to the Refugee Convention Australia must assess the applications of all asylum seekers who arrive in Australian territory, including territorial waters, irrespective of their mode of arrival. Australia has additional responsibilities to refugees from countries where Australian defence personnel have been deployed in conflict situations. Aims The Australian Greens want: A permanent migration program for Australia that prioritises family reunion and facilitates migration or resettlement to Australia within a reasonable time. The development of networks, materials and programs that increase community understanding of the causes and benefits of migration. Sufficient funding for public and community sector agencies providing migrant-specific services to deliver adequate, effective and timely support. Skilled migration programs that do not substitute for training or undermine wages and conditions in Australia. Consistent, timely and fair processes to assess the qualifications of skilled migrants permanently settling in Australia. Recognition that unaccompanied children have special needs that require a separate approach to the adult system. No family unit to be forcibly separated by Australian immigration assessment processes. Greater incentives for rural and regional distribution of refugees and immigrants using successful models for settlement. Incorporation of relevant international conventions in immigration law to ensure that there is an avenue for complaint when these rights are breached. Any appointment to tribunals to be independently made in accordance with a predefined formula of civil society representation and legal expertise. Services for new migrants and refugees that include appropriate English language classes, social security, health, legal and interpreter services, and post-trauma counselling where needed. Greatly enhanced regional cooperation in the Asia-Pacific to provide safer pathways for asylum seekers, with long-term planning to accommodate people displaced by on-going conflicts and climate change. Australia to adopt a definition of environmental refugee in its assessment criteria and to work in the UN system for inclusion of a definition in the Refugee Convention. Australia to show leadership in our region by fostering international cooperation on protecting asylum seekers and refugees, founded on shared responsibility according to capacity, and by encouraging all nations to sign and ratify the Refugee Convention. Australia to adequately contribute to the funding of and work closely with the United Nations High Commission for Refugees and other agencies assisting in the movement of asylum seekers, refugees and displaced people. An increase in the humanitarian quota, and offshore quotas fulfilled without reference or linkage to any onshore arrivals or other programs. Restoration of the Australian migration zone to match Australia's territory and acceptance of responsibility for assessing all asylum claims of people who seek Australia's protection within the migration zone. Asylum seekers to be fully informed of their rights on arrival and given immediate access to legal assistance. The current system of humanitarian visas (granted only by ministerial discretion) to be replaced with an open, accountable humanitarian visa assessment. Assessment of applications for asylum completed in a timely and transparent manner. The elimination of mandatory and/or indefinite detention and the abolition of offshore processing (where an asylum seeker or refugee is returned from Australian territory to another nation to be assessed) and other forms of punitive or discriminatory treatment of asylum seekers and refugees. Once initial health, security and identity checks are completed within a maximum of 30 days, asylum seekers who arrive without a valid visa to be accommodated in the community, unless otherwise ordered by a court, with periodic judicial review thereafter. All people categorised as refugees, but given negative security assessments by ASIO, to be given reasons for such assessment and the opportunity to challenge this in the appropriate forum. Asylum seekers to have work rights, and access to social security, legal representation, interpreters, health services, case management, and appropriate education for the duration of their assessment. Where an asylum seeker is not found to be owed protection, provision of fair and appropriate accommodation until they can be repatriated. Where a person is stateless, provision of accommodation in the community until they are issued with a visa or another durable solution is found. NASKING THANKS FOR THE HEADS UP. BRIAN'S POST ON LARVATUS PRODEO WAS SPOT ON I THOUGHT. GRANT MITCHELL, WHOSE EXPERTISE HE MAKES USE OF WAS THE AUTHOR OF THE PAPER I REFERRED TO. IT IS A PROBLEM THAT THE MATERIAL IS OVER A DECADE OLD. I TRIED TO DISCOVER WHETHER THERE HAD BEEN CHANGES IN THE SWEDISH SYSTEM SINCE BUT COULD NOT FIND ANY INDICATION THAT WHAT MITCHELL'S PAPER DESCRIBES IS NOT STILL PRETTY MUCH THE SITUATION THAT APPLIES IN SWEDEN.

Ken

10/06/2013Doug I think we basically agree but also see my post @ 6:31 to Catching Up. I blame Howard, and Abbott for continuing the current problems, by fanning what is fairly normal community disquiet in a slow process of social evolution. Unless there is a bipartisan approach along the lines you suggest it is (regrettably) politically impossible for the government to go it "alone". [Love the recaptcha "the itablot" - almost a new name for Abbott.]

Tom of Melbourne

10/06/2013This is typical of the partisan stupidity that characterises this issue – [i]” 
I blame Howard, and Abbott for continuing the current problems, by fanning what is fairly normal community disquiet in a slow process of social evolution.[/i] Gillard – [b]”Another boat, another policy failure”[/b] Rudd – [b]”You’d turn them (the boats) back”[/b] It is disgraceful that the best the barrackers can come up with is “blame Abbott and Howard” It is small minded and dumb.

Ken

10/06/2013ToM Wouldn't normally bother but you obviously have a reading and comprehension problem. If you are dyslectic, I apologise.

Sir Ian Crisp

10/06/2013[quote][b] [...] No! and I'd resign from the ALP as well! Jason [/b][/quote] NO JGuy, don't do it. I fear for our future if you hand in your membership. Please reassure us you'll think on it.

Ad astra

10/06/2013Doug Evans Thank you for your last post. The Greens policy is comprehensive and laudable in principle. Do they have a 'quota' that they believe is acceptable? Or are they happy to take all comers? If so, is there [b]any limit[/b], as clearly one country could not accommodate all the asylum-seekers there are in this world?

Catching up

10/06/2013Trouble for any PM, politics is still the art of the possible. Very rarely does any PM have the power, to passed any legislation, on their own. More so in a minority government. Yes, one cannot lay all the blame at the feet of the Abbott Opposition. The greens also have much to answer for. They could have gave way a little. The PM did move in the direction of compromise. There was none from the Greens or Opposition. Both stubbornly held there ground. This PM has done much, but still not god with the power to make miracles.

TalkTurkey

10/06/2013Twitter~VERSE (<140 Characters!) Grow Orchids or Feed Elephants Go Fishing or Raise Quolls Play Bridge or Learn to Belly~Dance But PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLLS! Can't be [i]that[/i] hard!

Tom of Melbourne

10/06/2013[i]” The PM did move in the direction of compromise.[/i] The PM moved in the direction of cruelty and punishment. The PM has a history of dog whistling on asylum seekers. The PM chooses expedience over ethics. The PM is comfortable to participate in a race into the political slime

nasking

10/06/2013 TIME TO GET THIS OVER WITH...NO MORE TIME TO WASTE. THNX FOR A BRAVE JOB AND SOME TOP NEGOTIATING JULIA...BUT PLEASE MOVE ASIDE. [b]RUDD/SHORTEN 13[/b]...SHORTEN TREASURER...DEPUTY EITHER PENNY WONG OR TANYA PLIBERSEK...OR MELISSA PARKE (WE REALLY DIG HER). [b]TIME TO KICK ABBOTT'S ASS.[/b] N'

Doug Evans

10/06/2013Ad Astra That is question for Sara Hanson Young. Why don't you email her office? I have found Greens generally to be extremely accommodating and helpful I guess SHY would be also.

Doug Evans

10/06/2013I note Catching Up believes the Greens have much to answer for in respect of this issue. Ad Astra has questions about details of their policy. If anyone is interested in knowing wnat the Greens really do stand for in respect of this issue you can download their submission to the expert panel here. It may answer your questions. http://greensmps.org.au/content/media-releases/australian-greens-submission-expert-panel-asylum-seekers

bob macalba

10/06/2013The trolls have been fed fact after fact, yet still they want to lie and distract....starve the buggers.

bob macalba

10/06/2013Ad...great post and really enjoying the comments and thoughts going with it cheers

Doug Evans

10/06/2013AA Just sitting contemplating what I might be able to usefully say about TPS as a political blog. Finding it difficult so I re-read your piece and the thought came to me. What would/will change for you when/if Shorten turns the lights out and Julia Gillard resigns to be replaced by KRudd. As we now know this might well happen shortly. Will this affect your opinion of the government or Labor do you think? Are the polls the Rudd supporters are touting reliable or just another clever destabilizing manoeuvre? Is Rod Cameron fair dinkum or just a very naughty boy? Have they 'played' Barrie Cassidy by feeding him some cleverly disguised chook food? If it is all on the level what does it tell us about the state of the electorate that changing the party leader and nothing else could cause such movement? So as a partisan supporter of this government and this PM how will you feel about the government and the Labor Party should this come to pass?

TalkTurkey

10/06/2013Greetings Comrades. Let me say from the top I'm pretty bemused. Not just about Asylum Seekers. I've been saying for months, expect some new Government initiatives on that front, but that's only part of what must be dealt with now. I'm bemused about disunity. And dis[i]loyalty[/i]. In the face of challenge, fragmentation. Where it should be [i]coalition[/i]. (Those bastards on the Right don't own that word.) Well I tell you what Comrades, (I am counting on my Eye of Insight here), I reckon you can expect *J*U*L*I*A* to do something [i]amazing[/i] in the next few days. I'm not telling you what, I don't even know exactly what for sure, but I'm pretty well betting my Eye of Insight on this. Remember her Parable of the Roadblock? Remember her personal wins in enlisting the IndependAnts, fighting off Rudd,(twice so far), co-opting Slipper, inducing Carr - all catching everyone off balance? Remember the dazzling reforms she has overseen in social legislation, the careful wise shrewd policies that have led to Australia's 3xAAA economic performance? Remember that against unremitting maniacal opposition, unfair criticism, vicious slurs, with a razor-thin edge in Parliament, she has done everything that could possibly have been achieved, with her only slip being when her heel got caught in a stone step. Remember my saying that this woman plays People~Chess? Remember the notion of Sacrifice in that game! Remember too [i]the Queen is not the Game.[/i] We have yet to see the true mettle of our Prime Minister. And, [i]hear me[/i], the latent[i] [b]love[/b] [/i]for her in this country will make its presence known through whatever it is she chooses to do. I predict that in the next few days she will make a move to astonish us all. And that it will impact hugely on the Government's popularity. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I've just started watching Q&A.

DMW

10/06/2013[b]The Next Big Sorry[/b] Ministry of Mateship & Fair Dinkum Values Want a long-range heads-up? The question we should be asking Abbott and Gillard and all of their various immigration spokespeople right now is this: [i]How do you feel about the inevitability that – possibly in your lifetime – a future Prime Minister of Australia will stand up in Parliament to make a heartfelt apology on behalf of the Australian people; an apology for you, for what you did, for who you were and for what you stood for? Possibly in your lifetime. Certainly in the lifetimes of your children and grandchildren, your nieces and nephews and their children, so that they can share your shame and hate you for the shame you spill on them. Many others, and their children and grandchildren, will share the stain of complicity, or of not speaking up against you and your hideous policies.[/i] http://valuesaustralia.com/blog/next-big-sorry/ Some very gut-wrenching and sobering reading in this. Read and try not to weep.

Catching up

10/06/2013Doug, I agree with much of the Greens policy, Not all of course. The Greens action, they they have taken, first with Rudd's ETS and last years Heuston's plan , has meant the nothing was achieved. They hand it to the Coalition on both occasions. Sometimes, it is better to have something you want, which can always be built of. Politics is always the art of the possible. No one gets everything they want. No one party has all the answers. The Greens had the choice to negotiate, hoping for something they could live with, or to reject completely. Yes, they did not like Malaysia, but they could have come to the party, insisting that many more safe guards be built in. That is much better than we have now. The situation is, that it will be all Abbott or nothing. There is little the PM can do about this.

Catching up

10/06/2013Lateline. Attack still on.

Capstan

10/06/2013Ad astra at 5.54 pm prattles on about ... I dunno - can't quite work out what he's on about in relation to his oblique, obscure comment re: present "refugees" and refugees from Vietnam. But I can tell you one crucial difference between Vietnamese refugees and Afghan "refugees", which is this: No Vietnamese fled Vietnam until the battle was lost and the war was over. They stayed there and fought until the scumbag North Vietnamese broke the terms of the Paris Peace Accord (you remember - the peace accord that in 1973 got both Henry Kissinger of the USA and North Vietnamese Politburo Member Le Duc Tho the Nobel Peace Prize). It was only AFTER the had been militarily defeated that the South Vietnamese began to flee their country as GENUINE refugees. The scumbag Afghans, on the other hand, have been bolting to Australia for years - even while the conflict in their country is far from resolved. My wife, indeed, said that, had I been killed in Afghanistan when I was there, at the same time young Afghan males of military age were bullshitting and lying their way into Australia as "refugees", she would have been ropable to a murderous extent. Let me make it as crystal clear as I can, Ad astra me poor old doddering halfwit, in relation to our [i]"current set of asylum seekers"[/i]: they are all frauds and charlatans, and are not a patch on the Vietnamese boat people who were genuine, commendable refugees. The afghans / iraqis / iranians et all who so badly clog our reception centres are all liars, rogues, spivs and rancid opportunists. Anyone who supports them is a half-witted, soft-brained sentimentalist incapable of distinguishing wheat from chaff - you are a "useful idiot" as Lenin once observed. That's YOU I'm talking about, ad astra - you silly, foolish old bugger.

Casablanca

11/06/2013TT Interesting that a Fairfax online poll which attracted an unusually high response of 41,561 votes had Gillard and Rudd neck-a-neck. The question was: ' Should the Prime Minister Julia Gillard step aside now for Kevin Rudd. 48% said Yes, 47% said No and 5% were unsure. Hardly the overwhelming endorsement of Rudd that we read about every day from the MSM. http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/fickle-fate-labor-keeping-an-eye-out-for-goddess-fortuna-20130609-2ny82.html#poll

denese

11/06/2013Casablanca out and about, I mentioned rudd this week, no no not him I heard back. I try to contact about 5 people every time I go out not often these days now retired, I can truly say I ve only met 4 people who dislike the pm. so I think the media are driven because they don't want the pm she is stronger than abbott and will over come. did you all see the post that was on alan kohlers site from the pm secretary Andrew leigh,, I would find it but to late out of bed

jane

11/06/2013CU, afaic a vote for the Liars is a vote for Murdoch & the IPA who are pulling the Liars strings. bob macalba, the trolls aren't interested in facts or they wouldn't be pushing the Liars barrow. Crapstain, Afghans have been fleeing since the Russians, the Taliban and then the US & Australia jackbooted their way into the country. Iraquis have been fleeing since Saddam Hussein seized power, then when the Coalition of the Dills illegally invaded their country. Iranians started fleeing the Shah & his secret police & then fleeing the reign of the Ayatollahs. When you actually know what you're gibbering on about, feel free to add your 2 bob's worth. As always with Liars barrackers, long on bullshit & very short on facts & the truth.

lyn

11/06/2013Today’s Links Election 2013: A tale told by an idiot by @crazyjane13 you’re expected to believe that somehow the Coalition – the so-called ‘party of the free market’ – can force power companies to drop their prices, simply by removing the carbon price. You’re also supposed to believe that refugee boats will stop coming – or, if they do come, that there’ll be no ‘convicted Egyptian jihadist terrorists’ roaming free http://consciencevote.com.au/2013/06/10/election-2013-a-tale-told-by-an-idiot/ Whatever happened to the Asylum Seeker debate- by @Piping_Shrike the intervention of the Indonesian Ambassador is extraordinary. First, because it is such a blunt intervention into a sensitive internal political issue. Secondly, because the way it was done has effectively made fools of the Coalition and especially Abbott who keeps implying that he has been in talks with the Indonesian http://www.pipingshrike.com/2013/06/whatever-happened-to-the-asylum-seeker-debate.html Murdoch and the Internet by rossleighbrisbane @MigloMT people pirating the products of Fox Studios undercuts his profits, and he has a legitimate concern with stopping the illegal reproduction of films and other media for which he owns the copyright. I can see that, and I’m sure that any reasonable government will see that. http://theaimn.com/2013/06/10/murdoch-and-the-internet/ Fraudband is an NBN fail, even for punters by @NoFibs In the current political landscape of fear, miss-information, lies and general bullshit (from everyone) why on earth was I thinking an intelligent argument would get through? Arguing over better, strong, faster (queue the 70s Steve Austin) where the #Fraudband was born, against the Terminator NBN (aka the future) is pointless http://nofibs.com.au/fraudband-is-an-nbn-fail-even-for-punters/ What the Rudd rumours really tell us by Rob Burgess The Canberra press pack is whipping itself into a frenzy at the slightest sniff of Labor’s blood in the water. While that might provide thrills for the daily news cycle – ‘Labor MPs already packing up offices!’, ‘Wounded Ruddite’s happy to slag off government!’, ‘Mark Butler melts down in Senate estimates meeting!’ – it does nothing to advance the voters’ knowledge about policies that will likely change their lives in 2014. http://goo.gl/tkZZo Subtle world of Machiavelli Rudd By @MacklinRobert The really sad thing about all this is that the only one who seems to have her heart in the right place is Gillard. And she, I must reluctantly concede, is electoral poison. Go figure. http://citynews.com.au/2013/the-world-of-machiavelli-rudd/ Corroding power of Pyne’s gossip by Michael Moore The leadership questions were simply Pyne scuttlebutt. However, they took on a life of their own with radio, television and print media all running the possibility. The social media was also full of speculation on the possibility. http://citynews.com.au/2013/corroding-power-of-pynes-gossip/ Alternatives to an Election on 14 September by @AntonyGreenABC If Kevin Rudd did become Prime Minister, the election date would come down to whether he wanted a quick rush to the polls on 3 August, or wished to spend time re-establishing his authority and sticking to the current election timetables for 14 September. http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/ Australians are waking up to why coal matters - US environmentalist by Bill McKibben It’s been made clear to me that Australians are waking up to the important understanding that while the carbon price is very important, it’s even more important that the coal stays in the ground.”“There’s no despondency. People are fired up and ready to go in Australia. I’m glad to see it.” http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/jun/10/fossil-fuels-climate-change-australian-election Not signing up to Gonski amounts to nothing short of abuse by Jane Caro and Lyndsay Connors there are those who are trying to frustrate this progress. To gain their own crass political ends, some have tried to bully the O’Farrell government for signing up to the Gonski deal in good faith. Others are using the technical complexities of funding and indexation formulae to hijack public discourse .http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/10/gonski-school-reform-australia Multiports may make NBN asbestos repairs unnecessary by AFR Telstra and NBN Co are in talks to change a key piece of equipment for the national broadband network that could reduce the need to replace or fix millions of asbestos-laden underground pits that have plagued the rollout of the $37.4 billion project. http://www.afr.com/p/technology/multiports_may_make_nbn_asbestos_OTCzT0kkwTdKGkdaQsV8IK Today’s Front Pages Australian Newspaper Front Pages for 11 June 2013 http://www.thepaperboy.com/australia/front-pages.cfm News headlines http://www.hotheadlines.com.au/

Doug Evans

11/06/2013Catching Up You need to ..... catch up. Re Rudd's CPRS a topic on which I am confident that I know what I am speaking about. It was an elaborate recipe for failure absolutely friendless among those who understand the intricacies of this sort of stuff. I've been through this many times before both on this site and elsewhere. I really can't be bothered re-hashing it again. Do some research that stretches beyond the self serving slogans of the bone lazy MSM and disappointed Labor politicians. You might start with Richard Denniss from the Australia Institute and perhaps move onto Ross Garnaut to get the ball rolling. What we have now courtesy of: The Greens' refusal to sign up to a scheme that was guaranteed environmentally useless. and The Greens' tenacity in the negotiation of the second package in which they extracted from the government among other things the $10 billion CEFC fund in exchange for agreeing to a start up price for the ETS too low to drive any meaningful change. is a suite of policies that actually have begun to make some difference to our emissions. Re asylum seekers: Here I am less confident without checking that I don't have the time or inclination to do. However my memory tells me that at the time the Malaysia solution was a desperate thought bubble of an idea from a panicked government. The very successful refugee advocate David Manne among others was confident it would fall over at the first Court challenge (like so many of the Government's other bright ideas on asylum seekers). Like I say Catch Up you need to .....

Ad astra

11/06/2013LYN'S DAILY LINKS updated: http://www.thepoliticalsword.com/page/LYNS-DAILY-LINKS.aspx

Doug Evans

11/06/2013AA I enjoy the care with which you construct your pieces and the generally constructive discussion that follows them. For reasons that I have stated before I disagree with your consistent strategy of avoiding discussion of the failings of this flawed government, its policies and its key figures. The grounds that, it would only be adding to the cacophony from the MSM and that anyway you like the PM, seem a little thin to me. I have a couple of examples that might help clarify my concerns. I had nearly thirty years as a studio leader in an architecture school. Assessment in design studios is normally based around public defence of the work by its author (the design student) and critique by studio leaders and invited guest critics. Design work is always quite personal and it is necessary to set the tone and nature of the discussion carefully but I learned that: 1. Enjoyable as it may be no-one learns from praise. 2. One can learn from discussion of the ways in which work could be improved. 3. Criticism did not have to be destructive or even particularly painful. I think the analogy to what is being discussed here is clear. About a year ago there was quite bit of discussion among climate change activists and communicators about the effectiveness of what came to be known as ‘bright siding’ – a communications strategy aimed at engendering action. Briefly bright siding in respect of climate change is a strategy of presenting a heavily edited and unrealistically positive version of the evolving facts on climate change and climate change policy. This is grounded in the belief that although public awareness and action on the issue is vital, the unvarnished facts are likely to generate despair and despair is disempowering and likely to hinder rather than promote action. An example of bright siding that some here might remember was the ‘Just Say Yes’ campaigns run nationally by Get Up with Simon Sheikh at the head of the campaign, and various NGOs around 18 months ago. I won’t drag you through the details of why but ‘bright siding’ has been shown to be an ineffective communications tool. People need to have the whole story the good and the bad so they can make informed decisions but this needs to be coupled to positive suggestions of actions that can be undertaken as a means to counteract despair. I think you are engaging in a form of ‘bright siding’ and again, I think the analogy to what is being discussed here is quite clear. The best discussion of ‘bright siding’ in the context of climate change that I know of can be downloaded here on David Spratt’s blog http://www.climatecodered.org/ I also discussed it quite a bit at the time on Earthsign. If you are interested just go to Earthsign and search for the term. I’m sure you will get something. However, that said, every blogger has the complete right to put exactly what they wish exactly how they wish on their sites. Anyone who doesn’t like the way it is done on a given site has the option to go elsewhere or write their own blog or given sufficient tolerance from bloggers to bellyache about it in the comments columns. It is to your credit that you tolerate such irritating dissent from at least a few of your readers. OK I’ve said my piece. Now I will shut up about this matter.

el gordo

11/06/2013 On asylum seekers I think a very large concentration camp at Ord River is the only way to solve the problem. They will be treated as illegal guest workers and released into the community as soon as they can fend for themselves.

Ad astra

11/06/2013Doug Evans Thank you for your posts about the Greens policy on asylum-seekers, and on the role of this blog. I have no recollection of the Greens stating that there would be an ultimate limit under their policy, although they have recommended an increase into the number of immigrants admitted on humanitarian grounds to, as I remember it, to 20,000. But do they have a limit where they would say: “We can take no more”, and if they did, how would they enforce the limit? I’ll email Sarah Hanson-Young. I take your points about the orientation of [i]The Political Sword[/i], and as you will have observed, I have said that my preference in critiquing Government policy is to address ways it might be improved. I will not add to the hypercritical attacks on our PM or her Government. There are plenty of assassins out there already doing that in a concerted effort to annihilate her politically. The rational discussion you recommend would be suitable if politics was operating rationally now. It’s not – the parties are in hand-to-hand combat in a fight to the death. You only have to read the radical policy positions and the venomous personal abuse of some who comment here to realize that. We have to decide whose side we are on, and fight for it. I made that decision long ago.

denese

11/06/2013well abbott has so much as said this morning he cannot turn the boats back so folks if you are voting for him for that reason only forget it you hero this morning conceded that so if you vote 1 abbott you gain nothing and lose everything

bob macalba

11/06/2013Ad well said, if i wanted to read a labor bashing i would read the crap the trolls put out there cheers and 'VENCEREMOS'

denese

11/06/2013ad astra so agree with you, I vote for my children , ny grandchildren their education, and future, abbott has not future just past look at his past ripped millions out of health, trained less gp`s, bought his religion to the point of what should be on the pbs,, I believe he will do that again, and I am catholic he is, but not a Christian I would say he is an orthodox catholic so what ever the pope says he goes along with, that should be enough to not vote for him.] people no matter your thoughts on what ever just remember that democracy is only one pen signature away from oblivion. democracy should not be taken for granted read his books on guided democracy.

Truth Seeker

11/06/2013Doug, you can espouse the supposed virtues of the greens and their "Policies", but the truth is that they had an opportunity to work constructively for better outcomes, but chose rather to stick to their ideologies and vote with the LNP therefore choosing 100% of nothing rather than 10% of something as a foundation for further reform. Now I have heard Greens supporters trying to defend the indefensible, but they are the facts, and to hear SHY and Milne rubbish this government for their policies and stating that when Abbott wins, they will take over as the ones to hold him to account is truly laughable. He will never work with the greens, and Milne will take them down the same road as the Democrats under Meg Lees, as Abbott works towards a DD ASAP. The best thing that the greens can hope for and work towards is another ALP win, as they have proven that they are the only major party prepared to negotiate for better outcomes. And if Milne and the greens think they have a chance with Abbott then they are at best politically naive and at worst, working towards political irrelevancy. (which IMHO they are already well on the way to achieving.) Cheers :-)

Doug Evans

11/06/2013Truth seeker Such certainty! A lot of bold statements and big predictions based on ....???? However should the results go as seems likely you better hope that the Greens balance of power in the upper house holds otherwise there is nothing between us and armageddon. Of course Abbott might well take us to a DD as he promises and you apparently believe. That might deliver him his desired majority I certainly don't know. My only comment on that is that should it happen one very experienced commentator whose opinion I respect has told me that one probable outcome is an increased Greens vote and probably more Greens in the Upper House. But you are the one who seems to have the hotline to God so I should probably defer to your expertise.

Mal Kukura

11/06/2013Ad Astra using precious and endangered freedom of speech does it again and by example shows the way: We have to decide whose side we are on, and fight for it. I made that decision long ago. In 1959 CP Snow summed up the cold war planetary zeitgeist in terms of "two cultures". In 1992 former Nixon strategist Pat Buchanan encouraged his untermenschen "brigades" to wage cultural war against the ubermenschen mutant culture of sustainability that grew out of the peace love and freedom global new deal civil rights movement that combined in the non-violent world cultural revolution of 1968. In 1965 a twenty four year old Bob Dylan released the album Highway 61 Revisited - saying the same as Ad Astra in a protest song called Desolation Row. everybody’s shouting Which Side Are You On http://www.bobdylan.com/us/songs/desolation-row#ixzz2Vrkl1lwr In 1858 Abraham Lincoln then a candidate for president in the upcoming 1860 election gave the famous house divided speech. He said: In my opinion, it will not cease, until a crisis shall have been reached, and passed. A house divided against itself cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure, permanently half slave and half free. http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/house.htm Then it was the southern half of the continent of North America. Today the same applies to the globalizing planet as a whole. Australia is being enslaved as we speak. it is simple really. A civilizing culture and a barbarizing culture. We see as Ad Astra has commented, ample evidence of the barbarian mentality used here on TPS to cultivate fear and discourage free expression. It takes courage to exercise freedom of speech. In the age of nuclear weapons there is no alternative to non-violence. These are momentous times and we of Oz/NZ must make the effort to free ourselves from the illusion that we live on an isolated island continent planet at the ends of the Earth. Globalization is real and we have not quite adjusted. Club of Rome founder Aurelio Peccei once said: the future will either be the inspired product of a great cultural revival, or there will be no future. I know which side I am on and I know it is the same one Ad Astra champions with TPS. I know that cultural revival means psycho-spiritual/cognitive revolution for individuals – spiritual awakening – enlightenment - just another name for recovery from mental illness – sanity. And only the strong are survivors. Doug - I hope the Greens pick up more seats in September as they did on 2010 = it was interpreted then as clear evidence the electorate had repudiated Rudd and the ALP for reneging on climate change action although Rudd at the time wisely decided to avoid being seduced into a double dissolution - the declared goal when Abbott was elected LNP leader by one vote in late 2009 = it was Slipper's vote.

Ad astra reply

11/06/2013Folks We are getting on the road now back to the south coast. Back this evening.

Truth Seeker

11/06/2013Doug, it's nothing to do with a hotline to God, it's based on talking to, and reading comments from, greens supporters who have said that they lost faith in the greens because of their ideological stand in voting with Abbott against doing something, and consewquently stating that they will no longer support them. That also includes some who were resigning from the greens out of sheer disgust. Make of that what you will, Time will tell? Cheers :-)

Doug Evans

11/06/2013Truth Seeker Just as its probably unwise to trust the opinions of the bone lazy MSM on our current political situation it's never a good policy to base your opinions on hearsay from the disaffected. Always better to go to the source itself and make up your own mind on the strength of what you know to be the true story. I had some doubts myself about the position taken by the Greens over asylum seekers but have not followed it closely enough to be confident that I am across the detail. So I've not been willing to offer an opinion here and I am not willing to spend the time doing the research to fill in the gaps. Not everyone allows not being confident that they know what they are talking about to discourage them from offering a trenchant opinion. Are you confident your friends are really across what transpired? As far as I remember the criticism of the Greens around asylum seekers was focused on the Malaysia people swap. Instead of listening to your friends and acquaintances you might like to read exactly what the Greens actually said about that initiative in their submission to the Expert Panel. The whole submission is available at the link I gave above. However here it is straight from the horse's mouth. "PROPOSALS THAT WILL NOT SAVE LIVES In the political debate of recent years there have been a number of ‘solutions’ put to the parliament and the concerned Australian public. Each of the proposals below relies on people continuing to board boats before they are intercepted by Australian authorities and thus trigger the 'solution'. These proposals are punitive, unsustainable, in breach of our international obligations and have not been shown to work effectively. The Greens’ proposals outlined above establish safer pathways and provide strong disincentives to boarding boats at all. The Australian Greens strongly recommend that the following proposals should not be pursued for reasons identified at each point. The Malaysia People-Swap The Malaysia people-swap proposed by the government will not save lives. It is a purely punitive proposal that involves sending people back to a country that is not a party to the Refugee Convention. It will not save lives or assist anyone to find protection, but rather would see Australia shrugging off its responsibilities onto our neighboring nations which are significantly less equipped to provide adequate legal protections to asylum seekers and refugees. The High Court ruled that this proposal is unlawful in 2011 because, under Australia’s Migration Act, we cannot refoule people who have already reached Australia to a nation that does not have laws in place that recognize and protect refugees from persecution. The arrangement between Australia and Malaysia was expressly non-binding, and Malaysia currently does not recognize the status of refugees in its domestic laws. The UNHCR made it clear in its 2011 statement on the Malaysia proposal that it was not fully supportive of the arrangement, even if the highly contingent and wholly unguaranteed human rights protections for the people returned to Malaysia were able to be achieved. The UNHCR’s statement stated clearly, “The UNHCR’s preference has always been an arrangement which would enable all asylum-seekers arriving by boat into Australian territory to be processed in Australia. This would be consistent with general practice”. Given the lack of legally binding protections in Malaysia even under the government’s proposed arrangement, strong reliance must be placed on reports from human rights NGOs. Amnesty International's report released in 2011 which documented serious human rights abuses against refugees in Malaysia, including approximately 6000 ‘judicial canings’ of refugees each year, high levels of harassment against unaccompanied women and girls, and high levels of arbitrary detention. The ‘Oakeshott Bill’, which was adopted by the government in the last sitting period, sought to strip out the very section of Australia’s Migration Act that imports into domestic law our obligations arising under the Refugee Convention and Protocol. Additionally, it proposed that the Immigration Minister would be able to declare any country party to the Bali Process to be suitable for transfer for asylum seekers, including refugee producing nations such as Afghanistan, Syria, Iran, Iraq and China." Now you can make up your own mind whether they were justified or not in refusing to sanction this initiative. I suggest that unless you think they are lying in their submission it is hard to criticize them for not supporting this idea. On a related but slightly different matter. Did you hear 'Background Briefing' today on the diabolical problems created by the stinking mess the ALP calls their asylum seeker refugee policy. Listen online and weep. It's not pretty.

Tom of Melbourne

11/06/2013The people swap deal was a disgrace, sending minors to a country with an appalling record on human rights. 800 people, about a weeks worth at the current rate. The entire episode illustrates Gillard's willingness to lurch around, buffeted by daily events, without a moral or philosophical compass. A Prime Minister without a plan.

Truth Seeker

11/06/2013Doug, I was aware of their reasoning, but IMHO and the opinion of many politically aware, their "opinion" that it would not work, was based more on their ideological stand point than any thing else, and as the "Expert" Panel recommended it as part of their plan, I, and many others believe that it should have at least been given a go. Don't get me wrong, in a perfect scenario, on shore processing would be great, but as I have said many times, we are an ISLAND, and to be processed on shore, first they have to get "On Shore", and there are just so many that we can take, and even if we lifted our intake to 100,000 a year, there would still be many willing to try the boats because they are desperate. I have no problems with genuine refugees, I do have a problem with families dying at sea as a result of a head in the sand denial of common sense, or for political expediency in Abbott's case. Good politics is about negotiation and compromise to achieve the best outcomes possible in any given set of circumstances, with a long term view to improving upon a legislated foundation. Most people don't get everything they wan't, there is usually compromise (I wanted a BMW but could only afford a Renault, hopefully the BMW will come later :-) ) Abbott opted for what was in HIS political interests, and the greens stuck to their Ideology and missed the boat (pardon the pun) altogether. I thank Ad for the opportunity to have this discussion, as it is a discussion that needs to be had, but there are no easy fixes, and for the sake of saving lives.compromises IMHO will have to be made. Cheers :grin:

Casablanca

11/06/2013Denese @ June 11. 2013 12:27 AM I saw the article by Andrew Leigh in the SMH. Interesting that you saw it on Alan Kohler's site. It is also on Andrew's own site: http://www.andrewleigh.com/blog/?p=4332

nasking

11/06/2013 JUST POSTED THIS @ THE PUB: Sadly, I’m seeing a lot of NSW, Victorian, WA, ACT and SA contributors on here that I highly respect but who have their head in the sand. You remind me of us QLDers who tried to convince ourselves Anna Bligh could come back last election (but our rational minds told us otherwise)…so we many kept on compulsively fighting…making hollow predictions that the polls were distorted…hoping Anna’s broken promises and privatisation agenda hadn’t broken QLD ALP’s back (tho, I did warn Anna…many did)…add the nurse pay problem, rising electricity and water prices…the amalgamation of councils…you could feel the hostility out there…but we kept on hoping…hoping…hoping. Sure, the reality is PM Julia has negotiated thru some bloody important legislation…has plenty of good policies…and this is a much younger govt than the QLD federal one. But…it’s also the govt led by a leader who is perceived to have assassinated a sitting QLD PM…and trust me…up here…they don’t forget. Nor are many happy about the asylum seeker situation…and having migrants, visa holders competing for their jobs. It’s xenophobia large indeed…but you know QLDers…we brought you the sweet as battery acid Pauline Hanson (well, not me…I demonstrated against her)…you need to realise that a similar game is being played here by the Coalition as in those days using many of the same characters…add a Santamaria aspect…and the push to create sneaky Libertarian, Tea Party, UKIP, John Singleton’s old stuff via a number of senate races…including Palmer, some in Katter’s party, Palmer, Joyce, Assange…and you’ve got a potential disaster on yer hands as we saw in the USA and recent local elections in UK. AND DOESN’T UNCLE RUPERT KNOW IT…TEXTOR/CROSBY AND OTHERS TOO…BEING BIG TRAVELLERS AND ADVISING BLOODY EVERYWHERE. Suffice to say, I worked alongside others, some on here, with Rudd to outwit many of the same characters we’re up against now. WE NEED RUDD…and his experience. Continuing down the road yer on now will be DISASTROUS. BB…you know me well from RTS…I have been studying global politics and media since Nixon The extreme polls are indeed outliers…typical for the Murdoch Newspoll to try and manipulate voter perception at times…we know them well…but the other fairly consistent polls and word of mouth do tell us there is a problem…and Julia is part of it…unfortunately. I was hoping at the end of last year we were helping change that perception…but at a recent party of many swing voters I was told they don’t like Abbott…but some even threatened to punch Gillard in the mouth they hated her voice so much…and they are not over the Rudd stabbing…nor the other stuff I mentioned. I was shocked…yes, these were aggressive comments towards Julia…coming from one person who had even been laid off by Newman….but it showed me how the so called QLD ‘battlers’ feel. Tragic. With Julia there we are losing a big opportunity here in QLD…and elsewhere in the suburbs I reckon. RUDD can bring in more religious, family values folk…GIVE HIM THE CHANCE…before it’s too late. Don’t just become a lefty Labor blog, social media feedback loop. Think wider. N’

Truth Seeker

11/06/2013Nas, sadly mate on this one I have to disagree. I honestly believe that returning to Rudd would be playing right into Murdoch's and Abbott's hands, and would ensure the demise of the party. We just have to hold our nerve and and fight for what's right, and if we lose, and I don't think we will, well at least we didn't capitulate, which as far as I'm concerned is not an option. I never thought that Bligh could win, my main hope was that Newman would not win his seat, and leave the LNP with no leader, but the future of our nation and our children is at stake here, and as far as I'm concerned we MUST and we WILL prevail. There's still a long way to go, and when the fat lady (Gina) sings, I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that it will be a requiem to the demise of Abbott and Murdoch :-) Mate, don't lose heart :-) Cheers :-) :-)

MarkatPort

11/06/2013Hi nasking, I read your piece at The Pub and came back here to see if it was really you. Do you really think Rudd could win the election for us ? The MSM ( mostly Murdick) seem really keen to see him back . Why would that be ? My 2c for what's worth, is they were making mincemeat of him and would do it again.. My vote stays with the Redhead, not the Dickhead (Abbort) . Actually my vote goes to an Independent who has done more for this electorate in 7 years ,both as a state MP and now as a federal MP than all the lying LNP reps combined ! My vote goes to Rob. I sincerely hope that what ever happens that both Tony W and Rob O retain their seats. I hope I haven't offended you. I read and respect all the comments you make here but I'm not raising the white flag yet !

Sir Ian Crisp

11/06/2013I see the bird of paradox has identified abortion as an election issue. One day she's happy to be photographed with kids and the next day she wants abortion as a centrepiece of her campaign. Is it her desire to embrangle the voters with ALP policies? First she tells us that our mothers are prostitutes and now she hints that abortion should have been an option.

nasking

11/06/2013 [b]I sincerely hope that what ever happens that both Tony W and Rob O retain their seats.[/b] MarkatPort, et moi. Good fellas. Truth Seeker, it pains me to disagree with you...and sooo many others I've fought alongside with for sooo long. I think we've lost this election...primarily on the Asylum Seeker issue...and the fact a lot of Aussies are xenophobes and worry warts who read too much Murdoch crap...and listen to too many cock jocks. FCKN sh*t will always appeal to the dumbed down...and people on a big island they know they invaded...took from the INDIGINEOUS people...annihilated their culture...feel both guilty about...and sick of hearing about. And they fear OTHERS will do the same to them. You add WAR ON TERROR INC...and all the Muslim baiting, hating, bashing stuff...you've got a volatile voter...already dumbed down by the MSM...look at the FCKN stupid shows they watch...l LIKE ROMAN SERFS BEING ENTERTAINED AS THEY ARE SPAT ON AND EXPLOITED...SENT TO BS WARS...THEIR TALENT AND IDEAS STOLEN BY PATRICIANS EVERY DAY. Now, I do think a Rudd has a chance to bring it back...get it close...at the least SAVE SEATS. But I doubt this ALP dominated by mining unions and others like useless CONROY will bring him back. So, I wish you all well... I do hope YOU can win. I hope I'm wrong. But I doubt it...I have observed too many elections in my time...and it's obvious Julia will not turn back the boats, use TPVs appropriately...nor get the Malaysian solution thru...nor be able to do a deal with the Indonesians. So, nothing will change. My eyes are too bad now...the headaches so fierce...I can no longer afford to waste my time. [b]I will not return[/b] to put more doubts in yer minds...you deserve better than that..but sadly, [b]I can no longer contribute.[/b] Patricia, I hope your dog gets better. Lyn, I hope the move goes well. It's been [b]a privilege[/b]. (BTW, not fatigued, not depressed...just being realistic) Cheers, N'

Truth Seeker

11/06/2013Nas, I am really sorry to hear how bad your eyes are, but just remember mate your are greatly respected and I am sure that I can speak for all your friends here, that you are always welcome here and at my site, and when you feel up to it again your comments will be welcomed and appreciated. Mate grown ups can always agree to disagree, and although I don't agree on this one you have been a great warrior for the cause, and a great source of inspiration. So take care of those eyes and give my best to "S", and I sincerely hope that you will be up to a great celebration when we win :-) if we don't get to hear from you before , you will be in our thoughts mate and we will wait and look forward to your return :-) Cheers form one of your many mates :-) :-)

Doug Evans

11/06/2013Ad Astra It occurs to me that your questions re: Greens Asylum seeker policy just might be answered by reading their submission to the Expert Panel. It is quite detailed as the chunk of it that I posted fro Truth Seeker indicates. You can download it from the link I placed above. My name is Doug from Melbourne and I'm here to help.

Sir Ian Crisp

11/06/2013[quote][b] [...] I think we've lost this election...primarily on the Asylum Seeker issue...and the fact a lot of Aussies are xenophobes and worry warts who read too much Murdoch crap...and listen to too many cock jocks. [...] nasking [/b][/quote] [quote][i] Tho I reckon a victory is still possible. Nasking Nothing will change the fact...the Coalition have stuffed up bigtime...virtually impossible for them to pull outa the dive now. Nasking [/i][/quote] What happened to that brave ALP foot soldier; the one with the brass neck? At one time surrounded by a fog which caused him to suffer an oneiric perception of reality only to now realise that bravado is no substitute for truth. Witnessing the ALP’s willingness to go to the polls with the bird of paradox as leader is akin to turkeys voting for an early Christmas.

nasking

11/06/2013 Cheers TS...KEEP ON KEEPING ON. SIR SICK. GO SIT ON A SHARP STICK....ROYALLY. YER A SCOURGE...LIKE ABBOTT AND HIS CREW. IF IT IS FOUND OUT THE HOWARD GOVT DID A DISGUSTING DEAL WITH INDONESIA...AND ABBOTT, BISHOP, MORRISON DID ONE RECENTLY...I HOPE THE MEDIA AND OTHERS RAIN HELL DOWN ON THEM. BTW, OH SICK ONE...NOTHING TO DO WITH BRAVADO...WE KICKED YER LOTS BUTT MANY TIMES OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS SHOWING YOU LOT UP FOR THE SCUMBAGS YOU TRULY ARE... PROFITING FROM WAR AND MISERY IS ABOUT AS LOW AS YOU CAN GET. ANYWAY, AFTER A LONG DECADE OF THIS STUFF I'VE HAD ENUFF. I'M FCKED IF I'M GOING TO CONTRIBUTE ANYMORE IN A COUNTRY OBSESSED WITH USING REFUGEES AS POLITICAL FOOTBALLS... THE WAY INDIGENOUS PEOPLE HAVE BEEN FOR FAR TOO LONG. AND I HOPE THAT RUPERT MURDOCH AND HIS TROOPS ONEDAY GET WHAT'S COMING TO THEM...EVERY DEAD PERSON IN THOSE WARS...AND IN THOSE WATERS...THEY ARE PARTIALLY TO BLAME FOR... AND DEEP DOWN THEY KNOW IT. I HOPE YOU CHOKE ON YER OWN FILTHY MONEY RUPERT...AND SHOCK JOCKS. THNX TO ANYONE ELSE WHO RESPONDS...DON'T TAKE IT AS AN INSULT BUTI HAVE NO INTENTION OF COMMENTING ANYMORE...ENUFF IS ENUFF. MY FACEBOOK SITE HAS BEEN DEACTIVATED. I PREFER TO BE LEFT TO MY OWN DEVICES. AND SHAME ON YOU AUSTRALIA...PERMITTING THE MEDIA AND POLITICIANS TO TAKE YOU BACK TO YET ANOTHER VERSION OF WHITE AUSTRALIA POLICY, REDS UNDER THE BED...AND BITTER HANSONISM. [b]SHAME...UGLY AUSTRALIA.[/b] N'

Curi-Oz

11/06/2013What's going on in WA? Is the event with the PM still on tomorrow night? I've just watched the local news that is reporting that the venue has been cancelled by the State Education Minister because it was going to be held in a public school hall!? I can remember fundraisers for Liberals being held in school halls in the past, but I can't remember whether they were public or private ones. And are public schools not allowed to hire out their facilities, paid for by our taxes, to raise funds for their schools as I am sure that the school would have been paid for the hall's use? I really hope that the meeting is on! Regards,

Ad astra

11/06/2013Doug Evans Thanks, I'll take a look tomorrow. I hope to catch up during Wednesday, after a long day today.

Ad astra reply

11/06/2013Nasking Your eyes need a rest. Take a break and come back refreshed. You are aways welcome here.

Ad astra reply

11/06/2013Truth Seeker Despite confident predictions of her imminent political demise, the lady is still standing while her opponents splutter. If only the Nervous Nellies on her backbench had half the guts she has!

Tom of Melbourne

11/06/2013[i]” her opponents splutter”[/i] Which opponents do you mean? Do you mean the LibNats? Or 33+% of her caucus? Or 55% of the electorate? Or MEN - more particularly, the ones IN BLUE TIES? Gillard just has so many opponents, you really need to inject a little clarity.

Ad astra reply

11/06/2013Mal Kukura Thank you for your stirring words. If only the Nervous Nellies put their apprehensions away and had the courage to know whom they are fighting for, and against, and why, and join hands to defeat the enemy. We know who it is.

Miglo

11/06/2013Nas, I for one would like to see you back firing and swinging a few punches before the election.

Patriciawa

11/06/2013Curi-Oz - I am a ticket holder to PM's event tomorrow and I have not yet been advised of a change of venue, but guess I will be once the legalities of the contract Curtin School of the Arts is sorted or a new site found. I am just thrilled that the PM is hanging in there and plans to viait us in WA and that Mark McGowan is going to be there to welcome her on behalf of WA Labor. Ad Astra. I haven't participated in the discussion on Asylum Seekers as I had promised, though I have followed what has been said. What I had earller feared for Nasking seems to have eventuated after his obsessive return to continuous commenting without taking time out. He isn't seeing sense at all. He does need that break. Truth Seeker says it for all of us stymied by the complexities of this issue, [quote]Good politics is about negotiation and compromise to achieve the best outcomes possible in any given set of circumstances, with a long term view to improving upon a legislated foundation[/quote] I thank Providence that I am not in public life and do not have to make judgements or decisions about this. A member of my family was once on active duty in the navy when John Howard's policies were in effect years back. I can vouch for the validity of those stories about sailors being distressed and sickened, some to the point of breakdown or resignation, by what was required of them. So, I don't have a rational solution or even a point by point explanation of how I see the problem. When I read this latest response of Abbott's reported in the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/11/malcolm-turnbull-doubt-coalition-boats I realized that the refugees were making the decisions for themselves about this when and how they could. As they were doing two years ago, when I wrote this. [b]‘Don’t Come Here By Sea!'[/b] We’ve heard your stories one and all. Widow, orphan, soldier amputee, And how you strive to reach landfall Here beyond the Arafura Sea. You know that if you come by boat People smugglers charge a hefty fee; No guarantee you’ll stay afloat To journey’s end across the Timor Sea. If Tony Abbott now held sway He’d stop your boat. That’s his policy. He’d turn you round, have you towed away, Deaf to your cries, back to the cruel sea. A plan to lessen your suffering Has now come from the ALP, Anxious to find a buffering Between Oz and the surrounding sea. It’s been proposed by PM Gillard, Wherever your starting point may be, Boarding leaky boats will be barred. You may not risk your life at sea! There now will be an orderly queue For you to join, perhaps certainty That at last we might welcome you. Though for that, you’ll have to wait and see. Be patient. Understand you’re seeking refuge In a land already sanctuary To people whose anxiety is huge, Girt as Australia is by sea. Things here aren’t what they used to be When we had endless plains to share With those who came across the sea. So forget all that, and – [b]‘Come By Air!’ [/b]

Truth Seeker

11/06/2013Ad, yes sadly there are a few nervous nellies on the back benches, and it must be a constant source of frustration to the PM who has got more guts than all the nervous nellies put together. We must and will prevail :-) :-) Cheers :-)

Ad astra reply

11/06/2013Patriciawa Thank you for your comment and your pome. I do hope you can get to Julia Gillard's WA event tomorrow. Please let us know how it unfolded.

Curi-Oz

12/06/2013I decided to take advantage of Ad Astra's email lists and sent this to all the one on the ALP list. I'll probably only get read by a staffer, but I can hope that it makes a difference. Dear Member of Parliament I am becoming increasingly concerned that you are permitting the bullies of the Liberal and National Party's backers to spook you from your excellent forward thinking record. Don't let the hysterical bullies of the Coalition and their supporters frame your achievements as failures. In the three years that Ms Gillard has lead the Labor Party, you have made so many positive contributions to Australia's future with the Gonski reforms, the NBN, and the NDIS to mention just three. But most Australian's don't know about them and how they will be affected by them because the mainstream media have a case of hysterics over the fact that Ms Gillard has not played the game that most Prime Ministers have played with them - and like all bullies, they are not coping too well and are taking it out on you! Ms Gillard has led this Government well in spite of the various selfish contortions of those who have trouble with the idea of being led by a woman. The fact of the matter is, there are a lot of voters who were impressed by the fact that the Labor Party chose a woman to lead them. And we are even more impressed that she has performed with such grace and dignity under the disgraceful behaviour of those that oppose you. The only reason that you could loose is because you are not doing your best to back someone who has lead you well; who negotiated the Labor Party into a position where they could govern for all Australians in spite of being a minority government; who has negotiated a laundry list of legislation that is so future focused it is almost unbelievable; who has stood up to the Opposition and been a real point of difference between the two parties. In comparison to the Opposition benches, this Labor Government has put the runs on the boards, and though there are things that could be done better, you should be proud of what you have achieved and are offering as policies for the future. I look forward to watching you take your seats in the next Labor Government in September.

Patriciawa

12/06/2013Thanks Curi-Oz. That's what we should all be doing. When I sent a similarly supportive letter to MPs and Senators I got a really nice thank you note back from Andrew Leigh. Of course they can't be expected to respond personally to all the letters they get from constituents. They have staff who do that. But however brief our letters of support I am sure they are really appreciated and give politicians of whatever persuasion a lift - they get so many brickbats tossed their way, don't they? It must be very hard sometimes to keep smiling and stay polite. And please don't tell me they get paid for it. I know that, but many of them, Andrew Leigh for example, could be earning a lot more in their original careers, but have chosen instead to try to make a difference in government.

lyn

12/06/2013Today’s Links Gillard, polls, porkies and popularity by Letitia McQuade@independentaus Newspoll only uses landline numbers to do its polling. So what, you may ask… Well it’s not rocket science to figure out that landline numbers contain an area prefix, which would make stacking the polls not too tricky ― not that I would suggest for a moment that anyone would do such a thing deliberately. http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/gillard-polls-porkies-and-popularity/ I'm the best leader for Labor: Gillard by trading room Liberal frontbencher George Brandis said the government was deadlocked and ridden by the most intense hatred imaginable.""It's all very well for (Ms Gillard) to say she's not going anywhere, the problem is the country isn't going anywhere," he said http://goo.gl/Yxcb3 Labor will be annihilated, but . by @MigloMT Unlike the media, sensible folk can look beyond September 14 and have a vision of what might be in store for us under a Coalition Government. Yes, there are a few ‘buts’. http://cafewhispers.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/labor-will-be-annihilated-but/ Australian Press Council set to welcome bloggers by @mumbrella Disney pointed to comments by blogger Tim Dunlop on The Drum that suggested that bloggers could form “a loose association”, and said that this would make it easier for them to join the Australian Press Council http://mumbrella.com.au/australian-press-council-welcomes-bloggers-160415 How to make a blogger laugh by @awelder you never know when rumours about Kevin Rudd challenging Julia Gillard might pop up. It might be tomorrow, it might be the day after. Whatever journalists write about, that's news, and if they don't write about it then it isn't. http://andrewelder.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/how-to-make-blogger-laugh.html ‘Pressure is mounting’ by @fakeedbutler None of this is new, I know, but I hope that there are members of the press writing about the unresolved and unresolveable leadership rubbish in the ALP who maybe follow the AFL. Maybe they bleed Red and Blue, and maybe they feel like the reporting on their coach is ill-informed and unfairly sensationalist. http://ausvotes2013.com/2013/06/11/pressure-is-mounting/ Life under Emperor Abbott will surely be very different by MICK McGLONE, Satire It’s a cert Tony Abbott, now Sir Anthony Abbott, will be Prime Minister and have a massive majority in the House of Representatives, with there being so few Labor representatives that they are forced to sit in the press gallery with their commie mates from the media. http://www.bordermail.com.au/story/1563704/life-under-emperor-abbott-will-surely-be-very-different/?cs=14 Australia beware: normality beckons by @GrogsGamut He notes, for example, that from the mid-1980s up to the mid-2000s the amount of saved income fell, but by the mid-2000s things got a bit silly. From 1998 to 2006, as a nation, we spent nearly all we earned and sometimes spent even more. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/grogonomics/2013/jun/11/australia-beware-normality-beckons-treasury Is WA in recession- (Slightly wonkish post) by @MattCowgill For some states (like WA), omitting exports can matter quite a bit. After last quarter’s National Accounts, I explained why I think that using state final demand figures to diagnose a recession is misguided; Ross Gittins has made the same point. http://mattcowgill.wordpress.com/ Why I am in the Australian Labor Party by @Kevin_Rennie I am very happy to stand and fight the next election alongside people like Julia Gillard, Greg Combet, Health Minister Tanya Plibersek, Attorney General Mark Dreyfus and Victorian State Opposition leader Daniel Andrews. Not to mention the members of my local Black Rock branch http://laborview.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/why-i-am-in-australian-labor-party.html The consequences of fear, hate and nastiness by @btckr Nasty, negative, nay saying Abbot has become the blue brochure clutching nice Abbott in the dark blue suit, white shirt, blue tie, preaching the blue brochure gospel of what the Liberal Party says it will do in government, if it wins. For the voters, the ones who didn’t switch off many months ago, this should be a WTF? moment. There should be consequences http://thesnipertakesaim.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/the-consequences-of-fear-hate-and-nastiness/ More Paraprosi Thingy’s, Jesters, Summation, Opiates, Pond Scum & The Rat By @knarfnamduh there was once one in there who could lay claim to some intellectual nous but unfortunately, what was once someone with some credibility, has just become a Fraudbull selling a Fraudband to a gullible public and trying to look respectable while he tells little fibby things! http://deknarf.wordpress.com/ Coalition asylum seeker policy: Abbott dismisses Turnbull's doubts on turning back boats by Emma Griffiths On last night's Q&A program, Mr Turnbull said it may be unsafe to take boats back to Indonesian territorial waters without the agreement of the Indonesian government. Mr Abbott this morning, he said: "I don't accept the premise of the question. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-11/abbott-brushes-aside-turnbulls-comments-on-boats/4746116 Statement From Detention Logs by Paul Farrell The treatment of asylum seekers provokes seemingly endless rhetoric, hostility and fear, but rarely do the voters see inside of these mysterious facilities. The centres are largely shielded from public scrutiny, and journalists who try to penetrate this culture of secrecy are generally denied access. http://www.theglobalmail.org/feature/statement-from-detention-logs/636/ Australia - The Happy Country video by Norman K http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS_c-zVOEbQ&feature=youtu.be Today’s Front Pages Australian Newspaper Front Pages for 12 June 2013 http://www.thepaperboy.com/australia/front-pages.cfm News headlines http://www.hotheadlines.com.au/

Ad astra

12/06/2013LYN'S DAILY LINKS updated: http://www.thepoliticalsword.com/page/LYNS-DAILY-LINKS.aspx

Sir Ian Crisp

12/06/2013Had a good laugh at the ban placed on the bird of paradox by WA education officials. Who remembers another redhead being unable to book a venue for her appearances? Oh the feigned indignation of the luvvies.

Sir Ian Crisp

12/06/2013I note the ALP policies for the September election are getting a bit of airing. In no particular order they are: 1. Blue ties 2. Abortion 3. The republic

Doug Evans

12/06/2013Labor and the Liberals both have asylum seeker policies designed around fear, not results. Immigration experts John Menadue and Arja Keski-Nummi ask: where is the voice for decency? http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/06/11/parties-prevaricate-on-asylum-seekers-and-boats-keep-coming/

Doug Evans

12/06/2013Australia’s policy on asylum seekers has been strongly criticised — but does it actually breach the UN’s Refugee Convention? Crikey intern Rose Moloney investigates. http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/11/29/crikey-clarifier-does-australias-refugee-policy-breach-un-rules/ Rise in hunger strikes and self-harm in Australian immigration centres - New figures show large increase in number of incidents at Christmas Island and Curtin immigration detention centres. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/10/hunger-strikes-self-harm-australian-immigration-detention

Doug Evans

12/06/2013In the wake of the Gillard Government’s plans to send more and more asylum seeker children to be locked up behind razor wire, Welfare Groups are reporting a dramatic upsurge in the number of Australians wanting to help asylum seekers and speaking out against the government’s inhumane treatment of these desperate and vulnerable people. http://thedailytrash.wordpress.com/2013/05/05/growing-number-of-australians-despise-gillards-policy-of-hatred-towards-treatment-asylum-seekers/

Doug Evans

12/06/2013SEE THE ABOVE LINKS. HOW DO THE GOOD PEOPLE OF TPS EXCUSE THIS DISGRACEFUL POLICY MESS?

Pikiranku

12/06/2013The Essential survey released yesterday put approval of Julia Gillard among Labor voters at 79%. Presumably, if the aversion to Julia in Queensland is as intense as Nasking believes it to be, the inclusion of results from there have driven this figure down. Which means there must be extremely solid support for her in the rest of the country. Leave her alone! Curi-Oz Your letter was great! Well done! AA I've noticed you haven't received too many constructive suggestions for improved policy on asylum seekers. Whilst almost all of us here are very concerned to find a more humane way of dealing with the issue, there just doesn't seem to be any means of achieving that without coming up against the question you have asked of Doug Evans (and he has yet to answer)- how do we control the flow? There are 10 million refugees around the world and we simply cannot help them all. It is all very well to suggest that we should take more, or all, of the asylum-seekers stuck in Indonesia, but it is naive to imagine that they will not be rapidly replaced by as many more. Sooner or later we are going to have to face the fact that we cannot cope with the numbers of people involved and that whatever we do there are going to be desperate people left unaided and suffering. While the push for a more humane approach now might give its supporters a warm glow it does little more than temporarily defer the inevitable practical problems and moral dilemma. I think it was very unfortunate that the Malaysian solution was not given a try. Although it would not have solved the total problem it might have been successful in reducing or eradicating the resort to dangerous boat journeys. That would have been a huge plus. I'm know I'm not offering any constructive solutions here and that's because I can't think of any!

Tom of Melbourne

12/06/2013There are a range of options available to the government and I posted several a year ago. The simple fact is that the government is locked in a race to inhumanity. It is all of its own making. So get this crap that theere are no options.

Catching up

12/06/2013Doug, are you getting desperate to back up your argument. You have not been to bad up to now. I agree with much of what you say. What I cannot agree wit, is your belief that it can be all or nothing. in politics, it is always the art of the possible. That means negotiation and meeting one another half way. The process usually delivers better policy, as no one side has all the answers. The answer lies in regional cooperation. There is no simple solution. One thing for sure, have as the basis of one's policy, cutting the number we are taking from the region by some seven thousand is not going to assist. This has been lost, in the noise coming from "turn back the boats" "we did it before. we can do it again". No the boats cannot be turned back. No it will not work again, even if it did in the past. I noticed, that following from the PM's unexpected action yesterday, the focus has already moved onto abortion to wider women's issues. Suspect, this was the aim, to provide a shock tactic, to move on from the media's frenzy over recent time, on Rudd, to issues that will count. We can always count on the likes of Bough and his ilk, to back up what the PM has said.

Millie

12/06/2013The unasked question in relation to Australia's population is the country's ecological carrying capacity. There are suggestions that the optimal figure is around 12 million. Heresy to "growth economists" and most tories (i.e. Liberal and Labor party). Refugees are very small part of the population equation, but if cannot even get that question right how can (and indeed the globe) come to grips wiht other serious questions of population, densities, carrying capacities, and the massive extinction rates. Brought about largely due to human expansion. I have no answers to these questions but we do need to think seriously about them.

42 long

12/06/2013The rate of population growth and its impact on the environment should worry all thinking people. To more than double in one's lifetime is outrageous and unsustainable. We are making vast areas of our planet uninhabitable with hostilities, desertification, pollution, lack of drinkable water, lack of infrastructure. This will promote migration and unless problems are solved at source nothing will be achieved of any consequence in the big scheme of things. The number of refugees in the Lebanon is at a level per capita that applied to Australia would be equal to FIVE million, Jordan would be similar. We have NO issue by comparison here but instability could still ensue. If we took immigrants at a level that would upset our society's ability to cope, it still would not fix the problem for the large number of refugees in the world. The ONLY proper solution is to aid countries to have a stable progressive system with opportunities to exist where they are. Most people get a strong attachment for their country even those that are barren and harsh in nature compared to others, and would stay there is they weren't threatened.

Catching up

12/06/2013Doug, all would agree, not one likes today's policies on asylum seekers. ell no one apart from Morrison and Abbott. who wants it tougher. Doug, saying that, have you any ideas, practical ones I mean, how change can be bought about. Electing Abbott in, will not get what you, and many want.

Doug Evans

12/06/2013Pikiranku I wasn't aware that I had been asked that question. AA was asking me to answer, effectively on behalf of the Greens, a question about Greens policy. This did not seem appropriate to me so I referred him to both Sara Hanson Young and official documents from the Greens that might provide an authoritative answer. He was not asking MY opinion about how many we can cope with or how we might control numbers. As you seem to be there are several comments I can make. First there need be no panic about numbers just yet. Even with the escalation of the last year or so numbers seeking to flee here are still very, very small both totally and on a per capita basis in comparison with just about every other OECD country. According to the Refugee Council of Australia http://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/f/myth-long.php “Compared to other refugee-hosting countries, Australia receives a very small number of asylum applications. In 2010, Australia received 8,250 onshore asylum applications, just 2.2 per cent of the 358,840 applications received across 44 industrialised nations. In the five years to December 2010, 9,630 asylum seekers have arrived in Australia by boat. Over the same period, over 6,000 people arrived by boat in Malta, a country of 420,000 people (compared to Australia’s 22.3 million); and at least 185,000 people arrived by boat in Yemen, a developing country with a GDP per capita of just over US$1,200 (compared to Australia’s GDP per capita of over US$54,000). Statistics on boat arrivals to Yemen are unavailable for 2010; however, even excluding 2010 arrivals, the number of people arriving by boat in Yemen over the past five years was almost 20 times the number arriving in Australia. The overwhelming majority of the world’s refugees are situated in the developing world in countries neighbouring their own. In 2009, of the 10.4 million refugees under the mandate of UNHCR, 8.3 million or 80 per cent were hosted by developing countries. Only 17 per cent of the refugees under UNHCR’s mandate live outside their region of origin. At the end of 2009, Pakistan was hosting over 1.7 million refugees and asylum seekers. Syria and Iran each hosted more than a million refugees and asylum seekers. Germany was the only developed nation to host in excess of half a million refugees. At over 590,000, Germany’s refugee population dwarfed Australia’s total of around 22,500.” Now these figures are a little out of date but you should be able to see from these numbers (as from those I included in my response to Ad Astra’s challenge – did you read them?) that in terms of numbers of arrivals both total numbers and per capita (a better measure of the social and economic pressures associated with asylum seeker arrivals) the problem created here by the numbers of such arrivals is miniscule. Interestingly the Refugee Council of Australia have given their own answer to the problem which seems to pre-occupy both you and Ad Astra. “Australia’s refugee program must have strict limits, otherwise we will end up hosting millions of refugees.” “There are only three countries in the world – Pakistan, Iran and Syria – which host more than one million refugees. The high numbers of refugees in these countries are largely the result of major and prolonged conflicts in Afghanistan (bordering Pakistan and Iran) and Iraq (bordering Syria and Iran). Worldwide, the most common way that refugees travel to a country of asylum is overland, not on planes or boats. Overland arrivals are impossible in Australia because, being an island, it has no land borders with any other country. This factor, combined with Australia’s geographical isolation, makes Australia one of the most difficult countries in the world for asylum seekers to reach. Australia also has universal visa requirements and sanctions against airlines which allow foreign nationals to fly to Australia without visas. These measures greatly restrict access to Australia to citizens of many refugee-producing countries. It is therefore highly unlikely that Australia will ever receive the large numbers of onshore asylum applications that other countries experience.” Pikiranku as I hoped to demonstrate with my response to AAs challenge, Sweden, which has an intake several times greater per capita than Australia even now, provides a model for how to humanely deal with this issue. There is nothing special about the situation Australia finds itself in that would preclude it from following such a path. The inescapable conclusion that must be drawn is that the justification for a distressingly inhumane set of policies (from a government representing a party that should be prioritizing the humane treatment of traumatized asylum seekers fleeing for their lives) is political expediency and I find this disgraceful. As I said a blot on the nation’s history. Pikiranku I suggest that an important question to answer for well meaning people like yourself and AA is: ‘I believe the ALP presents the best option for government in Australia but how can I ignore such disgraceful policy. Is it not my duty as a human being to call it for what it is?’ I can find no moral justification whatsoever for a failure to do so. How about you? Finally Pikiranku I suggest that the answers to many of your concerns in respect of the asylum seeker problem are only a mouse click away. I knew absolutely nothing about asylum seeker policy beyond what I can remember from MSM and online sources before I took AAs challenge. Finding the answers proved very easy.

Ken

12/06/2013On the asylum seeker debate, just a piece of geography. The majority of boats are heading to Christmas Island, an Australian territory (a very small number do head for the mainland). Christmas Island is less than 500kms off the southern coast of Java. The nearest significant Australian town, Broome, is about 2000 kms. Simple solution - hand Christmas Island to the Indonesians!!! (please read as tongue-in-cheek) Perhaps should be careful saying that - Abbott might steal the idea!

Bilko

12/06/2013Ken I already mentioned handing CI to Indonesia some time back give each resident $1m each and let them settle anywhere they chose in the same way, with the Falkland Islanders both actions would solve a lot of problems.

42 long

12/06/2013You've still got Cocos (Keeling) Island to the west. When you look at the map, Christmas Island is indeed quite close to Indonesia and since it is fairly stripped of Phosphate (as far as I know) it may have little economic benefit to Australia. I don't know what the basic population is or what they would think of a change of jurisdiction, but the current circumstances would hardly thrill the residents I would imagine. The "smugglers" tell the passengers "you can see it from here on a good day. Whether others would go the extra 2,000 kms to the Australian coast, Who would know. One at least has done it from Sri Lanka which is further than Indonesia by a long way . I can't imagine that someone intercepting a boat in international waters has any right to require/ suggest they go back or force them in any way whatsoever. I would think that was piracy. Abbott is talking crap. (What's new there?)

Catching up

12/06/2013For Doug. What can happen when people work together and share views. "Quote for the day: “If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas.” George Bernard Shaw" http://rossleighbrisbane.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/quote-for-the-day/ There is always, better ways to do things. One just has to listen to one another.

Pikiranku

12/06/2013 Take a look at these appalling findings from a study on the health effects of coal burning in Europe: gu.com/p/3gfpg/tf

Bacchus

12/06/2013Try this Pikiranku :) http://t.co/m7DPCjGvjR

Pikiranku

12/06/2013Bacchus! Thank you! After racing off to prepare a bit of food for tea I've just come back to see if I could get that link right and you've done it for me! Please tell me how it's done -sometimes I succeed and sometimes I don't. Gripping article, don't you think? Doug Evans I didn't mean to appear indifferent to the plight of current refugees or to imply that nothing more can be done now. In fact, I think Australia's record is shameful and will one day be seen as a blot on our nation's history. But I assumed that AA was seeking ideas on a more long-term solution and, whilst I'm aware of the current figures that you've supplied and I agree that we could deal with them quite easily if we had the will, I still believe that that won't always be the case. The magnitude of the problem is overwhelming.

Pikiranku

12/06/2013Wrt Christmas Island - If that was no longer an option it wouldn't be too hard to island-hop to Timur and then sail from there to any one of a number of islands off the northern Australian coast. Or to the northern Australian coast itself. I sometimes wonder why more people don't do it that way now.

Bacchus

12/06/2013Hi Pikiranku, With your mouse over the link in Twitter (or wherever), right click and for Firefox: Copy Link Location Chrome: Copy Link Address IE: Copy Shortcut Mac users may be able to help with Safari if required... Then paste into your post as normal...

Ken

12/06/2013Bilko Good to be on the same wave length. The only problem with our approach is that the refugees are 500km closer! More seriously, I assume that closeness was the original reason CI was excised from the "migration zone". Not saying I agree with that, just stating what I think drove the decision. Doug you have made a number of references to the humane asylum seeker policy of Sweden. Again, not opposed, but it would seem their situation is somewhat different. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it would appear that Sweden is nowhere near any of the major sources of refugees. That would suggest that the asylum seekers they are accepting are ones that have been through the system and are not just arriving on their doorstep. In other words, an orderly influx. The only way I can think of large numbers arriving unannounced, would be through the Italian model. Italy readily issues visas to most illegal migrants/genuine refugees (both from what I can gather) because they generally do not remain in Italy but with an Italian visa they are free to move throughout the EU. Perhaps when some reach Sweden they then apply for asylum???? While we are not treating ours humanely, it does appear to be a different situation. It also goes back to my original post on this thread when I asked why there was not more processing of the refugees closer to their original countries (that would appear a UNHCR problem, not just an Australian problem.

Catching up

12/06/2013Well Uhlmann is not giving up. 7.30.

Doug Evans

12/06/2013Catching Up My strong impression has been that whatever folk (including AA) on this site actually THINK about Labor's asylum seeker policy they are prepared to remain 'SHTUM' or to GLOSS IT OVER because after all it is Labor policy and we support Labor. WRT whether I am becoming desperate or not. Try reading the links. They are all fairly sober and authoritative and they all directly or indirectly condemn as inhumane, illegal, unworkable, expensive - you name it - the asylum seeker policy of the Gillard government. WRT whether I have any PRACTICAL ideas about how change can be brought about. Fair question. My concern so far has been to portray what SHOULD have happened rather than how we get from where we are to where we should be. Well I have some broad predictions about what will happen generally and in this area. and some general thoughts about what MIGHT and SHOULD be done to make things better.But if you ask me whether I am confident that things will be changed for the better – I am not. My general predictions which I placed on Cafe Whispers today I guess you are familiar with as you've been commenting in the same stream. Briefly - we will get an Abbott government this year and the magnitude of the likely swings suggest that we will have to put up with it for a decade at least. My specific prediction is that this will bode evil for asylum seekers generally and especially those who arrive by boat. For the next ten years their lives will be made even worse. My thoughts about what could and should happen. It is a long way back from where we are now to where we should be but there is an opportunity of sorts in this for Labor. They have effectively a decade to plot the path to something like what Sweden and most of the other OECD countries already do. It is plain that the boats will keep coming. It is plain that there are still not very many people, compared with the rest of the host nations,coming to Australia. After the election from opposition (presumably) Labor must make a clean break from the current policy. It must be blamed on misguided former colleagues - there will be plenty of former colleagues to put in the frame - and Labor must start to build a new policy around the truth. One of the first things they must do is tell it like it is to the Australian people. 1. There are not many people arriving in comparison with the rest of the world Australia ranks number 47 at least on the list of preferred destinations. 2. It is unlikely that Australia will ever become a major destination for asylum seekers because of its geographic location. 3. These people have a perfect legal right to arrive in any manner they choose. There is nothing illegal about being an asylum seeker. 4. We have international obligations to treat them in certain ways that we have not been living up to. 5. There are many countries who have dealt with this problem cheaper and far more humanely and Labor intends to instigate a policy in line with best international practice. Stand up and tell the bloody truth to their constituents as a starting point. Can't be that hard. It is possible to LEAD public opinion on issues like this. Malcolm Fraser managed it. How refreshing would that be! Finally of course electing Abbott will not solve the problem. There is no quick solution to this problem. Abbott won't do it. I'm not sure that Labor will but they could, they might. It would give Labor the moral high ground and a clear point of differentiation from the coalition. As well as the right thing to do it would be politically smart. Labor in its current incarnation however is not good at 'politically smart' so I'm not at all sure they would do this. The very first step however is that Labor's friends begin to call Labors' policy disasters for what they are. Averting the gaze and mumbling about how difficult and complex it all is because we don't wish to offend or join the chorused, cacophony of complaint doesn't help Labor one jot.

Doug Evans

12/06/2013Ken You really must read the link. It's not up to me to summarize Mitchell's paper for folk who can't be bothered reading it. For what it's worth Mitchell says about 80% of asylum seekers arrive in Sweden without valid papers. He has quite a lot interesting to say otherwise also about differences and similarities between Sweden and Australia but these you can read for yourself.

Capstan

12/06/2013Are you bunch of tragic, incompetent dropkicks still debating about illegal boat arrivals barging their way into our country? Still banging on endlessly about your "humanity"? Here's what I want to know: how many of them have you drowned today because of your brainless, mindless lefty policies? You all have no shame whatsoever. Their deaths (and the deaths that are yet to come) are on YOUR hands.

Doug Evans

12/06/2013Ken and Pikiranku Sorry don't mean to be grumpy. I'm getting a bit tired. You should really read Mitchell's paper its not especially long or difficult and is very interesting.

Curi-Oz

12/06/2013I have a possible (very cynical and sarcastic) solution that only a fearless leader like Mr Abbott could institute... Let the Asylum Seekers actually land on remote areas of Western Australia and provide cheap fares to all those people who like shooting guns and don't like strangers, to the wonderful 'wild hunt' that would thereby create tourist dollars and at the same time provide an Asylum Seeker solution. As I said, very cynical and sarcastic... and suitable for the charicature of Mr Abbott that has been painted on occasion. Personally, I think negotiating a means for Assylam Seekers to be evaluated overseas and then flown here would reduce the strain on our Border Protection Units and deaths by drowning, reduce the fear of 'unworthy individuals' getting in and ensure that even increasing the intake could be managed. I think it is the unpredictablenss of it all is the trigger point for those who are afraid of the changes to our culture that opening up to the world will have. The crazy thing is, the children of these refugees may be the billionaires/doctors/scientists of the future, as those that came from Vietnam have contributed to our society. BUT, and it's a big but, there has to be investment in that future with support programs that employ people. It would probably still be cheaper than paying Serco huge amounts of money to lock them up and let them rot as happens now. As has been observed before, when more money is in the hands of more people then everyone is richer. Regards

Catching up

12/06/2013"The magnitude of the problem is overwhelming." Disagree. It is the magnitude of the politics that is overwhelming. Up to this time, it was dealt with in a bipartisan manner. Answer were always found. the same can occur again. The ball is in Abbott's and the Green's camp. Sadly more will suffer, as Abbott has no answer, no matter what he claims.

Tom of Melbourne

12/06/2013<i>” it was dealt with in a bipartisan manner.</I> Was that before or after Gillard declared – “another boat, another policy failure” Gillard has a rich history of politicising asylum seekers.

Ad astra reply

12/06/2013Folks I've been busy today with visitors and will be until the end of the week. I'll try to catch up with your comments tomorrow. Good night.

TalkTurkey

12/06/2013Hi Ho Everybody, I have been spending too much time on Twitter and not enough here, but at least I do stir the possum over there, as the saying goes. I am intent on winning for myself the self-appointed title of Most Abrasive Tweep Ever (MATE) and I'm well on track. This is not entirely tongue in cheek: I [i]feel like [/i]making enemies of such as Pooffesser van Nonselense, Leigh Sales, Uhlmann et al; there is simply too little real aggravation at the moment, the slimy MSM is never held to account. When I do give them a reality drenching they usually block me forever, that's OK by me, I make more-and-stauncher Twitter friends that way and it assures me I'm on the money with my assessments of their characters. VanNonselense must despise me by now, well why wouldn't I wear that as a badge of honour? He was the one who first impugned my character on the basis that I use a nom de plume - well many Swordsfolks know who I am, but in important ways I feel more free to say what I mean and think, I don't tell lies, I just call things as I see them. But then, I wear my Labor membership and allegiances on my sleeve, both under my not-very-secret nom de plume on the Fighting 5th Estate and in my everyday life. Nonselense has his name up in lights of course, he thinks that makes him holier that I, (or Ad astra for that matter, so you know what I think of that!) but the good Pooffesser is r'slicking Murdoch for money and selling his opinions in the process, and his views, which he claims to be without bias, aren't. He is a RW apologist all the way. And he hates being called out, and I love doing it to him. Especially today! I'm really only on Twitter to try and try to make a difference of a vote here and there btw, but I must say I enjoy giving ricardocephalics some lip. I do call people by some nasty names, I'm very proud of my penchant for insulting but apt nomenclature. That's enough of that. Asylum Seekers. Ad I wish I could be helpful but I don't know enough about the subject and probably never will. One thing I can say, that is almost completely [i]un[/i]helpful, is that I wish the population of Australia, and the world, would not increase at all. I know it is a catchcry of the Rabid Right that Australia is full, but the fact is that's right, in fact Australia is grossly overpopulated already - if we look at things in terms of long-term sustainability. But oh well. All I can add to the debate, though, is to say that I can do no better than to support the regional strategy so painstakingly crafted by people who do have a close and deep working knowledge of the situation. I am content that that process was designed with humanity and forethought, and I am pretty sure that had it ever been given a chance to work, we would have few deaths and far less problems with refugees. Unfortunately we have a hung parliament, a cynically obstructive Opposition, a bugger of an opportunistic Groons Party and a High Court that killed that hopeful strategy. So it will have to wait for the next parliament - which for the refugees' sake better be Labor, and with its own working majority. By the way Doug Evans, I won't be bothering further with your points of view, you are insulting to my Party and you seem to be relishing the prospect of gloating on a possible loss of the Labor Government. That attitude was the basis for my original friction with you, and I see nothing in what you now say that indicates that you have moved, nor repented of complicity in a party whose intransigence has cost many many lives at sea.

lyn

13/06/2013Today’s Links Why the Menu Matters by @crazyjane13 The menu is only the latest in a long series of sexist, violent attacks on the Prime Minister. It’s not merely disrespecting the office. It’s not picking out a long nose, or big ears, and highlighting them in a cartoon. These are sustained, specific attacks targeting the Prime Minister as a woman. The description of the offensive dish literally http://consciencevote.com.au/2013/06/12/why-the-menu-matters/ Small Breasts, Huge Thighs, PM on the Menu by Tracy Spicer, @TheHoopla Language like this flourishes in societies where women are valued less than men. Where women are viewed as sex objects, and are victims of violence. Playing the gender card is not a game. It’s an important, relevant, and timely discussion to have in a country where attitudes like this still exist. http://thehoopla.com.au/julia-gillard-kentucky-fried-quail/ Julia Gillard's 'small breasts' served up on Liberal party dinner menu by Bridie Jabour The menu was first posted by a Brisbane chef who claimed he used to work at the unnamed restaurant which hosted the Liberal National Party soiree and a staff member who was catering the dinner had taken a photo of the menu. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/12/gillard-menu-sexist-liberal-dinner Bad taste: Brough’s bill of misogynystic fare by @BernardKeane as Prime Minister Gillard has been attacked in the most vile and offensive terms by the lunatic fringe of the Right, talkback radio hosts, Coalition MPs and by News Ltd outlets like The Daily Telegraph and The Australian. http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/06/12/bad-taste-broughs-bill-of-misogynystic-fare/ Some Things Never Change by @sortius Abbott, as we all have seen, has trouble convincing women that he’s not a misogynist. He’s used his wife, his kids, & even Liberal party MP’s to defend his thumping record on women. Most, if not all, these speeches enter the realm of apologist, distracting people from the “Real Tony” to build a picture of a soft loving person. http://sortius-is-a-geek.com/?p=3085 This is the Sexist LNP menu everyone is talking about by @Mamamia The dinner was held in March and 20 people attended. Shadow Treasurer Joe Hockey was reportedly there but has denied any knowledge of the menu. He tweeted: “I don’t recall ever seeing any such menu. It is offensive and inappropriate whenever it was put out and it is now”. http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/mal-brough-sexist-menu/ Abortion and federal policy: here are the facts by @SummersAnne Voters need to be mindful that there are men in Federal Parliament who, to quote Julia Gillard, would make abortion access their "political plaything". A bill by Senator John Madigan is a salutary reminder that Federal Parliament does have the power to regulate access to abortion, http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4748872.html And Abbott promises an 'adult' federal government if elected on 14 September 2013- -Warning Offensive Menu by @no_filter_Yamba Mr. Abbott called that insulting, obscene and sexist description of Australia's Prime Minister the joke that was out of line. His candidate Mal Brough says that no harm was meant. http://northcoastvoices.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/and-abbott-promises-adult-federal.html Mal Brough should be off the menu for the 2013 Election What can you do? Contact Mal Brough’s office to demand he step down, http://stoptony2013.com/2013/06/12/mal-brough-should-be-off-the-menu-for-the-2013-election/ A little spotted dick, anyone? by @TeamOyeniyi That menu didn’t just insult Julia Gillard, it insulted every female in this country. While I was facing indecision about where to cast my vote, after today I’m DAMN sure I know where I am NOT casting my vote. http://teamoyeniyi.com/2013/06/12/a-little-spotted-dick-anyone/ Sexist menu was bad private joke, says restaurant owner by @the_daily The amazing twist comes after Mal Brough had earlier apologised for the menu, while Opposition leader Tony Abbott condemned it. Mr Brough told the ABC earlier that the menu was drawn up by a non-party member who thought it would be "humorous" and "didn't mean any harm by it," but is now "deeply apologetic". http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/calls-mal-brough-be-dumped-lnp-over-sexist-menu/1904581/ The Three Lies Labor Should Attack by Ian McAuley Abbott’s three main planks – “stop the boats”, “record debt” and “big new tax” come within the definition of a lie – not only an outright falsehood, but also “something intended or serving to convey a false impression” as defined in the Macquarie Dictionary. Kevin Rudd has been frank enough to call one of these planks a lie. Gillard, like General Birdwood’s corporal, would do well to take his http://newmatilda.com/2013/06/12/three-lies-labor-should-attack Slimming down government. Why Abbott might be bolder than you think by @1petermartin What would Tony Abbott do? As with all potential prime ministers there’s no way to be sure. But thanks to an unusual instance of history repeating we’ve been given an unusually clear idea of what he’ll be told to do. http://www.petermartin.com.au/2013/06/Commission-of-Audit.html Are we talking ourselves into recession? by @macro_business If our institutions and leaders are making the right forecasts and calls, and are in tune with the population, then the trust essential for the development of animal spirits will also prevail. If not, then all of the rhetorical blandishments in the world from those same failing sources will drip like unprofitable ideas off an entrepreneur’s upturned back. http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2013/06/are-we-talking-ourselves-into-recession/ Dumbing Down Of Australia – Murdocracy, Failed Coups, Strippers, and Educating The Wrong Kids and Housewives by @turnleft2013 @MigloMT Dumbing down people, keeping them underexposed to facts and truth, paywalls that are tolls-ways to information, copyright laws that criminalise distribution of information, and the persecution of whistleblowers is a great leap backwards into the Dark Ages of Ignorance and Superstition. http://theaimn.com/2013/06/12/dumbing-down-of-australia-murdocracy-failed-coups-strippers-and-educating-the-wrong-kids-and-housewives/ Checking the facts by @LarvatusProdeo The ABC is also planning fact-checking unit to be launched in August, funded as part of a $10 million top-up for the ABC news division. Unlike other fact-checking units around the world, the ABC intends to integrate the unit output into its broadcasting operations, so short, discrete segments will pop up on TV and radio. http://larvatusprodeo.net/archives/2013/06/checking-the-facts/ An email to Scott Morrison by @MigloMT turn the boats around where safe to do so”, I have been trying to envisage how this might be done, and have imagined being present at the discovery of one of the many over-loaded boats off Christmas Island. http://cafewhispers.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/an-email-to-scott-morrison/ Towing back the boats: bad policy whatever way you look at it by @ConversationEDU Doing so will put at risk Indonesia’s continued and crucial cooperation in a great many other bilateral endeavours including those designed to improve the situation of asylum seekers and refugees in Indonesia. http://theconversation.com/towing-back-the-boats-bad-policy-whatever-way-you-look-at-it-15082 'Pattern of behaviour' to Liberal sexism: Gillard Video Julia Gillard has lashed the Liberal party's record on women, claiming sexism would be 'littered throughout policy documents' under an Abbott government. Read more here: http://bit.ly/13Az2Pj http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZbFj4tc8eo&feature=youtu.be Today’s Front Pages Australian Newspaper Front Pages for 13 June 2013 http://www.thepaperboy.com/australia/front-pages.cfm News headlines http://www.hotheadlines.com.au/

TalkTurkey

13/06/2013Lynnie By the living Dog you are a bloody marvel. Thank you ever so, you have filled nearly three years of my life with the best reading this nation has to offer, at the same time inspiring me to write too. You were the first (or maybe the second, Ad? to welcome me to this site, and btw if I really wanted to find that out I'd just go to the Archives eh! What a wonderful dynamic all-encompassing record Ad astra, you two have crafted a compendium which will outlast us all. It is such a part of my day week month year and Parliamentary cycle that I can hardly imagine life without TPS now, that's of course the stage when it's all too easy to take your input for granted, and we your followers only really feel its worth when you take a little break. Even then our Gypsy Janet or NormanK has taken over, with the result that this record is unbroken since long before the last election. Wow. And via your Links Lyn no important event in Australian political history goes unmentioned or undocumented, it's not possible! Is that far out or what! I meant to write something else but I got distracted by the magnificence of this site. Magnificence? Yes indeed: Magnus=great, facere to make, so, GREAT WORKS! Thanks again again Lyn & Ad.

Ad astra

13/06/2013LYN'S DAILY LINKS updated: http://www.thepoliticalsword.com/page/LYNS-DAILY-LINKS.aspx Folks [b]Lyn is moving house tomorrow, Friday 14 June. She will not be posting links tomorrow and for the following few days. She will resume posting her links on Tuesday 18 June. Thank you Lyn for the bonanza today - twenty-one links! We agree with Talk Turkey "[i]Thank you ever so, you have filled nearly three years of my [our] life with the best reading this nation has to offer.[/i] We all wish you a trouble-free move into your lovely new home, and hope you both will be very happy there.[/b]

Lyn

13/06/2013Good Morning Ad and Talk Turkey, Thankyou both so much for your precious lovely words & wishes ♥ ♥

bob macalba

13/06/2013Talk Turkey 'richardocephalics'.......OUCH! man thats a rabbit punch. where on earth do you come up with these magic descriptions? so apt cheers

Tom of Melboune

13/06/2013[i] Unfortunately we have a hung parliament, a cynically obstructive Opposition, a bugger of an opportunistic Groons Party and a High Court that killed that hopeful strategy.[/i] What an incredible load of crap. The High Court prevented the government from sending 800 people to a nation that was not signatory to the UNHRC, about a week’s worth of arrivals. Gillard has willingly politicised the asylum seeker issue, she has happily participated in the race into the political scum. She has shown no leadership, morality or humanity on this issue. She’s a disgrace.

Jason

13/06/2013She has shown no leadership, morality or humanity on this issue. She’s a disgrace. So are you running at the Spetember 14 election? or are you going to show no leadership, morality or humanity on this issue by doing SFA? I'm sure the odd angry word you write on here, is of great comfort to those whishing to come here ToM!

Doug Evans

13/06/2013Ad Astra Good morning. This will be my last post on this issue. It has been an instructive process from which I have learned plenty. So thank you. I am sure that should we ever meet and chew the fat together we would find ourselves in furious agreement on most matters of principle. If I have been unreasonably brusque with other readers of the blog then I'm sorry. This has involved quite a lot of writing on my part and at times I may have been hasty in my wording. I have previously said that I enjoy your careful writing and the generally positive, constructive nature of the comments that this engenders. I commend you for your passion and the self evident humanity that underlies all of your writing that I have seen at least. As you issued the challenge to draft an approach to the asylum seeker issue that we would support on the basis of some stirring from me I felt obliged to respond. I hope I did so constructively and usefully. I note that hardly anyone else has responded to the challenge you issued at all. I placed on the site for discussion, not only the bare bones of a vastly more humane policy alternative to the one which our current government has put in place but authoritative figures which demonstrate that their is nothing more complex or troubling about the problem here in Australia than elsewhere quite the opposite in fact the problem is of lesser scale here than almost anywhere else in the OECD. There is nothing special about our situation for example that in itself justifies offshore processing or a regional solution to what is universally regarded as an Australian problem. There has been little discussion of the issues this material raised and, I suggest nothing to indicate that anyone even bothered to open the link I supplied giving the complete summary of how Sweden runs its refugee and asylum seeker program. When questions turned as they inevitably do to WHAT WOULD THE GREENS DO? (the implication being that it is easy to criticize when they don't have to implement action) instead of indulging in the usual speculation or parroting the normal slurs from the major parties I posted the Greens' policy on refugees and asylum seekers which you at least were kind enough to read. As I remember your comment was that it appeared 'comprehensive and humane'. I don't remember any other comments on this. I also posted The Greens' detailed submission to the multi party panel. I don't remember any comments on this either. When you and Pikiranku expressed doubts over whether Australia would be swamped by refugees I posted (admittedly not immediately) material from the Refugee Council of Australia's website which showed (again) that the problem is small in Australia compared to just about any other asylum seeker destination and that Australia is unlikely ever to be swamped by asylum seekers because of its geographic location and immigration policies. Again no discussion or response. Ad Astra I knew virtually nothing about any of this before you issued the challenge and I began to prepare my response to it. Finding out was remarkably simple. Almost no-one else seems to have bothered. It's difficult to believe that the folk on this blog are seriously interested in discussion, at least on this issue. Now to the nub of it. It disappoints me that you are apparently uninterested in the bright siding discussion for which I also supplied a link. This is in high degree relevant to my critique of the stance you consistently adopt on this site. I would have been interested in your response. Ad Astra when you write "We have to decide whose side we are on, and fight for it. I made that decision long ago." it is clear that in your mind you have identified the ALP brand with the progressive humane values you prioritize so NO CRITICISM of party, policy or politicians will be countenanced. Whatever you say about positive critique of how the party can be encouraged to do things better the only criticism I have found on your site is of the MSM and the Opposition (richly deserved) and of the Greens. No critique of Labor policy because to indulge in this would (presumably) only be to amplify the 'cacophony' from the MSM and the conservative blogs and after all it is LABOR policy. Labor like any political party is not homogeneous. There are powerful Federal Labor politicians who would be as comfortable as members of the LNP or for that matter the DLP. My former unlamented local member Martin Ferguson is a perfect example. It was no accident that Abbott’s praise of Ferguson on his departure was so fulsome and how revealing it was that Ferguson was unable to hide his pleasure at Abbott’s words. To characterize the views that Ferguson argued for in caucus as progressive would be ridiculous. There are many such Labor politicians. As a consequence the assumption that Labor policies are ipso facto progressive in the sense you (and I) support is silly. There is a remnant of Labor’s former social democratic ideological base that provides coherence to their policy mix and most of the achievements that supporters are rightly proud of originate here. However there is also a whole mess of neo liberal (the market can do no wrong) conservative stuff that should be subject to careful scrutiny by progressives such as yourself. Finally there is a fair leavening of focus group and poll driven political expediency with no underpinning other than the hope that it will shore up marginal seats. The asylum seeker policy that you chose to highlight falls unquestionably into this last category. As the material I have planted on your site indicates no principled defence of this policy is possible. It contravenes our international obligations. Aspects of it have been knocked over by the Courts. There are plenty of humane alternative models available. It amounts to the cruel mistreatment of a vulnerable group of people for the sake of the basest political expediency. It should be condemned as such. Now if Labor’s friends and supporters are not prepared to tell the party clearly when it is getting something wrong what hope is there of ever getting them right. No political party ever acknowledges the criticism of its political opponents. If not you then who? The argument that now is not the right time, 'perhaps after the election loss (if that is what transpires) might be a better time', is spurious. There is always a reason why now is not quite the right time. If not now then when?

Bilko

13/06/2013Lyn good luck with the move when our middle grandson moves out we plan to downside and the thought just does not bare thinking about, even when it could be within 2years

Patriciawa

13/06/2013Very late start today. Isn't it odd how the Canberra Press Gallery and commentariat has painted such a distorted picture of Prime Minister Julia Gillard? One can forgive cartoonists up to a point, they are often as relentless in their portrayal of Tony Abbott. But interviewers and reporters of press interviews leave him and his pronouncements largely unquestioned. My immediate impression on seeing the PM mingling informally at last night's fundraiser in Fremantle, was how small she is. So much has been made of her[i] derriere[/i], that I wondered if she had lost weight recently. Even so that shouldn't affect her overall proportions. She came across as a slightly built woman, modestly dressed in a black trouser suit and sensible shoes, with immaculately groomed hair and stylish glasses which added character to her face, but left it open to scrutiny. As she always is of course, unlike the Opposition Leader who walks away from awkward questions. Of course the event was not a press conference, it was a fund raiser billed as 'The PM in Conversation With Ben Elton.' Even so, there was some searching questioning along with the light hearted banter, particularly about asylum seekers. I haven't got my thoughts about last night together yet. I woke up this morning to Joe Hockey's comment about the the Prime Minister never having had respect which is laughable. She received a standing ovation on arrival and departure and our local member, Melissa Parkes told me her office receives calls and emails daily reflecting the same feelings of admiration and respect and urging her and other Caucus members to stay loyal. I'n fact feelings about the PM in that audience were if anything more firmly behind her than at Community Cabinets held here in WA last year. More later. It was great to meet fellow Swordsters, Gordon and Rosemary, last night and to share our impressions of the event in person. We should do more of it. Any other sandgropers up to joining us in the beachside coffee we plan for next week? Does that happen to Coalition members, I wonder?

Patriciawa

13/06/2013I meant to say do Coalition MP's get daily heartfelt phone calls and emails to their offices imploring them to stay loyal to Tony Abbott? That last sentence up there somehow got cut off from two above.

Catching up

13/06/2013Tom, you knows well, that the high court only acts on whether the legislation does not break the Constitution. It does not make value judgment. It makes legal judgments. You know that the Abbott Opposition that prevented the new legislation from going through, which would have allowed the PM to go ahead. It was political decisions of the Greens and Coalition, that prevents the Malaysian Solution to be put in place. You also know, that when this happens, the government of the day, can change the legislation, to bring it in line with the Constitution. We now know, that bringing back the Pacific Solution does not work. We have no idea if the Heuston plan will work, as it has not been able to be put in place.

Ad astra

13/06/2013Doug Evans Thank you for all the effort you have put into contributing to this piece, both what you have written and the links you have provided. My lack of response for the last couple of days has been entirely due to the fact that we have dear friends as house guests until tomorrow, and then we return to Melbourne, where I have still to prepare the next piece for posting on Sunday. I don’t want to respond to your comments in haste, as they deserve considerable thought. So please bear with me. I’ll respond when I have time, probably next week.

Ad astra

13/06/2013Patriciawa Thank you for your interim report on the Julia Gillard/Ben Elton encounter. I look forward to your further report.

Casablanca

13/06/2013I hate to sound flippant but it has occurred to me that the first step in humanising our asylum seeker policies & practice is to excise Western Sydney from the Australian mainland. The Parliament and the Government won't get any clear air until the red-necks are taken out of the equation.

bob macalba

13/06/2013Casablanca. take the news ltd media out of play...Western Sydney on its way to being fixed, not much chance of that till old scrotum face drops off, cant be to much longer,then a chance of a fairer place for all, looking forward to the day

Casablanca

13/06/2013PM asked 'absurd' question in interview June 13, 2013 - 8:05PM. James Robertson [quote]Howard Sattler offered the Prime Minister a chance to dispel ‘‘myths, rumours, snide jokes and innuendo’’ at the tail-end of a digressive interview on Fairfax-owned station 6PR this afternoon Perth time.[/quote] ‘‘Tim’s gay,’’ was the first rumour Mr Sattler raised. Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/pm-asked-absurd-question-in-interview-20130613-2o71q.html#ixzz2W5lzuLib Perhaps Howard could ask Abbott the question to finally dispel the rumour/question doing the rounds of whether Margie Abbott is a transvestite.

Truth Seeker

13/06/2013Hey Lyn, hope the move goes well, and the new house is everything you want. :-) My latest post "Don't let the bastards win." http://truthseekersmusings.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/dont-let-the-bastards-win/ Cheers :-) :-)

lyn

13/06/2013Hi Bilko Thankyou for your wishes at 1.28pm. Great to downsize but Oh Dear! where did all the stuff come from. Truth Seeker, thankyou to you too. BTW we are loving your work. :):)

Pikiranku

13/06/2013Casablanca I don't think Australia's xenophobes and hysterics are confined to Western Sydney, but I very much agree with your general point that no government can get clear air on the asylum-seeker issue. There has always been an element of underlying racism and xenophobia in this country at least since the days of persecution of Chinese on the gold-fields. The post-war Italian immigrants were all either victims or agents of the Mafia; the Yugoslavs were victims or agents of the Ustashi; the Japanese tourist operators in Queensland were fronts for criminal organisations; the Vietnamese were drug lords or couriers. Etc, etc. I've no doubt you've heard many more such theories. But all these notions were mere mumblings, kept under control by responsible and mature national leadership. Until John Howard came along and cynically exploited these undercurrents for political gain, beginning with the Tampa and gaining momentum with the Children Overboard; opportunistically keeping things on the boil with incidents like the Muhammed Haneef affair. As a result, racists and red-necks have come out of their closets and are now mainstream in this country. A nightmare situation for any government that aspires to a more humane asylum-seeker policy. To be seen as 'soft' on 'border security'(how I hate that term!) is political suicide; to commit political suicide is to achieve nothing. So the current government must walk a tightrope - between humanity and survival. An unenviable task. Thanks for the legacy, John Howard - your cynical manipulation of people's fears and ignorance for your own narrow and selfish political purposes has created a mind-set that will haunt this country for years.

Casablanca

13/06/2013Pikiranku@June 13. 2013 09:29 PM We are in furious agreement.

Casablanca

13/06/2013[b]Breaking News[/b] Emma Alberici signed off from Lateline with the welcome news that Howard Sattler had been suspended for his disrespect towards the Prime Minister in the interview that I referenced above.

jane

13/06/2013[quote]Does that happen to Coalition members, I wonder?[/quote] Too busy muckraking, Patricia. Glad you enjoyed the fund raiser last night. I look forward to a full report when you have gathered your thoughts. I didn't realise the PM was so tiny; she always seems very tall. I guess that's because she is so strong & gutsy. Casablanca, it's good to hear that Sattler was suspended. Just another loudmouthed sexist Liars mouthpiece badmouthing the PM. Pity that uncouth pornographer Pickering can't be chucked in clink. As for Menugate, this is just another example of how emboldened the Liars and their deplorable barrackers have become and how sure they are that they will not be held to account for behaviour which would be regarded as stalking if it were a member of the public. IMO, that these people can pass off this latest attack on the PM as a bit of harmless fun, says it all about them. I wonder if they would find it quite so inoffensive if their close female relatives were subjected to the same filth? recaptcha: never toryfir

DMW

14/06/2013Doug Evans, once again I dips me lid for the contributions you have given and some great insights on the topic through that. Great stuff thank you. I too have been deeply involved in 'real life' this week and not had the time to pull it together to respond fully but suffice to say you have covered a lot of the ground that I have traversed. As have to be back on the road at around six I won't be able to say much more tonight. To those yet to retire - sweet dreams and those already dreaming half your luck :)

Casablanca

14/06/2013I sent the following email to Martin Boylen, General Manager at 6PR Perth. email: martinb@6pr.com.au Perhaps others could express their disgust via email. http://www.6pr.com.au/contact-us.html Hello Mr Boylen, The suspension of Howard Sattler is the very least of the action that the station should take. The PM, Julia Gillard responded with her usual decorum but the line of questioning by Sattler was outrageous and totally unacceptable. If Sattler could not make that judgment for himself then I believe that he should be kept off air until such time as he can gain some basic civility. Sattler insults womanhood with his gross disrespect for the Prime Minister. Also, this is not the first time that he had been sexist towards the Prime Minister. Regards

TalkTurkey

14/06/2013First Lynnie We will miss you while you're moving But the Sword will go on grooving And Gillard Labor is improving! Don't You Fret! VENCEREMOS! Don't work too hard and take lots of care moving heavy stuff. When you start feeling weary knock off, that's when you make mistakes. But you knew that. Not much gets past you! :) Bob Macalba It's actually [i]ric-[/i]ardocephlic - not [i]rich-[/i]ardo- just to keep it straight - because you are unlikely to see the word in a dictionary. Neither would you readly find its recommended therapy, [i]autoendocephalic traction[/i], which you may plainly see would be highly efficacious in cases such as ToM's! Pikiranku As always you are quite right - I am so often in despair about the xenophobia which runs deep and nasty, and mostly denied, in this not-so-happy country. That of course is why we MUST win - because an Abborrrrtt government would signal a determined return to the past and a simplistic confrontational society for the rest of time. We are not going to let this happen. My Eye of Time is clear. Truth Seeker that's a great post of yours on your own site, Yep, all D's for Dunce as well as Dirty Rotten Bastards! BTW If you didn't get a Brucie the Bilby from Ad astra, I'd really like you to ask him for one, I see you are a muso and I know that most of my copious amounts of verse -(Brucie is just a tiny taste)- can be set to music, you might be interested in a few bits. Catching Up, Bilko, 42 long, Ken, Casablanca, Miglo, Curi-Oz, Bacchus (love that gravatar!), and especially Patricia because it takes so much more to create Pomes than prose ... All you lovely sincere goodwillians I have and haven't mentioned, I must say I feel something suspiciously like Love for you staunch Comrades of the Sword, sorry I don't reply to you all individually or maybe not at all. But [i]Millie[/i], I think you are very uncomfortably on the money with worrying about sustainability... I mentioned that myself earlier in this thread ... and I think the number is actually far less than 12 million. Using my long-range Eye of Time, dear oh dear. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now: A few days ago - was it only Sunday? - I predicted that *J*U*L*I*A* would in the next few days do something to amaze us all. Well [i]she has![/i] In case anybody has missed it, she has in that few days not only put Rudd to bed re leadership - AND to USEFUL WORK in the electorate!!! - she has also, in one neat pirouette, found herself on the front foot wrt Abborrrtt Hockey Brough and whole rotten lot of them. "Found herself" because it is not entirely her own doing, some very pretty serendipitous synchronicity has kicked in to deliver a multiwhammy in reinforcing her statements about misogyny: the MSM tried to bag her for it, (literally in the case of Anal Jones); Hockey charged in like a vengeful pygmy hippo saying she deserved no respect - and earnt himself the bloodiest nose since Abborrrrtt snotted him in student days, when [i]as a result of his hypocrisy[/i], the chef fronted The Menu! That menu was the best fare Labor has had for many moons! And by last night the rotten Right was running for cover, and not finding it, and for the first time the MSM really is going [i]blb~blb~blb er er hrmmm Whatif? [/i] And tonight, that fool Howard Sattler has just served himself a double serve of Merde Cordon Bleu,and in doing so reinforced the Menu, immeasurably showing just how correct and justified our PM is! Vunderbar! And her cause is not hurt by the revelations of sexism in the Armed Forces! Because it will mean that the real issue, sexism itself, will get addressed at last. Oh and then there's the Government's wonderful stroke of genius in getting State governments in Qld & WA to ban our ministers from holding functions in school grounds, you gotta hand it to these LNP, they set new records in stupidity. Don't they know that if you want people to want something desperately, you tell 'em they can't have it!? *J*U*L*I*A* has drawn her vorpal sword now, and she has drawn a lot of blood in the last couple of days. Brough. Hockey. Pyne. And [i]more will follow [/i]fast now. And in lovely downtown Adelaide right now a Turkey is gobbling delightedly. [i]We are right on track, right on track[/i], and we are about to see a bigger turnaround than Malcolm Fraser's since he has started trying to weasel his way back to a passport to Heaven. Fight on Comrades with renewed courage and firm belief in our overall view of the shape to which a society ought to aspire.

Doug Evans

14/06/2013Ad Astra Thanks for your comment. No need for explanation. All good. DMW Thanks for that.

Truth Seeker

14/06/2013TT, thanks for your kind remarks about my post :-) and I would love to get one of your books, do I just have to contact Ad through the contact page? Cheers :-) :-)

TalkTurkey

14/06/2013TS Yep. All he needs is your postal address. No money, stamps, envelope. Just ask and it will be given! Thank you Ad. Oh BTW EVERYONE who asks will get a Brucie the Bilby too. If Ad runs out I'll send him some more. LNP recaptcha: allpis decorated

Ad astra

14/06/2013Folks [b]As Lyn is moving house today, there will be no links from her. She will resume her links next Tuesday.[/b]

Tom of Melboune

14/06/2013Shorter Pikiranku – [i]”It’s all Howard’s fault”[/i] This coming from someone who disparages indigenous people who vote according to their own wishes, Remarkable hypocrisy is regularly on display here.

Bilko

14/06/2013Tall Turkey a nice round up hope it gets plenty of exposure. Lyn good luck with the move will miss your links so I will have to scavenge for myself. morning all fellow swordsters

TalkTurkey

14/06/2013 "You never miss the water 'til the well runs dry." Everybody how about we ALL take some responsibility? *POST*A*LINK*A*DAY*! Here's one from moi: http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1572074/poll-young-liberal-loses-top-post-over-tweet/ LOOK at the PICTURE - Admire PM's FIST - Now see Footy as Abborrrtt's HEAD! Check the amused onlookers. GEORGE?

TalkTurkey

14/06/2013The role of political blogsites Ad astra ..? Whatever it is you are doing it right. I called you Blogmaster of the Era years ago now. Our Sage. Since then you have only reinforced that opinion and I know I speak for all Comrades here. There are other great sites but the Sword is like unto the constant Northern Star "upon whose true-fix'd and unbending quality there is no fellow in the firmament." Julius Caesar, [i]Julius Caesar[/i]Shakespeare eh! :) We are what we eat, well a blogsite is what its contributors make it. That includes links to and from everywhere of interest. That's why this particular site is uniquely important, you have been wise and patient, Lyn has been ubiquitous and incredibly generous to us and to those she links from elsewhere, and the [i]record[/i] speaks [i]volumes[/i] for itself. Literally! Don't you know, it's Magic! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96kwILL35ig

Pikiranku

14/06/2013Okay, TT, here's my offering: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-14/indonesia-rejects-opposition-asylum-seeker-policy/4753128 Something else for the LieNP to deal with.

Pikiranku

14/06/2013Tom of Melbum Are you STILL on about that? My comment was made in the context of a particular piece of LNP policy which was extremely contrary to the best interests of indigenous Australians. But don't be misled, it wasn't racist or discriminatory - I think EVERYONE who votes LNP has rocks in their head! Have you?

Ad astra

14/06/2013Truth Seeker I did enjoy your [i]Don’t let the bastards win[/i] Great writing. http://truthseekersmusings.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/dont-let-the-bastards-win/ Pikiranku Thank you in reminding us of how we have a sorry history of finding fault with new arrivals, and for your link to the piece about the Indonesian attitude to Abbott’s ‘turning the boats around’. Casablanca That was a great letter to 6PR. Talk Turkey You always stir our souls. Thank you for your kind commendation of [i]TPS[/i] and its contributors. [b]VENCEREMOS[/b]

Jason

14/06/2013ToM, Last week you were in outrage mode as per usual about the "'convicted jihadist terrorist"! Today we find out just how wrong you were again! Interpol's National Central Bureau (NCB) has dropped the majority of the most severe charges against the Egyptian asylum seeker branded a "convicted jihadist terrorist" by Tony Abbott, following an investigation by Guardian Australia. At the request of Egyptian Interpol, the charges of premeditated murder, firearm and explosives possession and destruction of property against Sayed Abdellatif have been dropped. The existence of these convictions was heavily quoted by opposition politicians, news reports and the Australian Federal Police as evidence that Sayed Abdellatif was a dangerous terrorist. Interpol has confirmed that the "Red Notice" on Abdellatif's name is still in existence, but now relates to membership of an extremist group and of forging travel documents. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/13/interpol-drops-murder-sayed-abdellatif?CMP=twt_gu

42 long

14/06/2013Watch for the apologies from Morescum and others. Ha ha! Demonise the lot to gain political support from frightened ill informed people. No doubt the Indonesians are working flat out to avoid being insulting to Australia as they are well mannered. Unlike Abbott, Bishop Morrison & co who act like "Rule Britannia" is top of the HIT parade. They are trying to make sure we know what their view of it all is. Indonesia is just a transit station for the refugees. Australia is their (hoped for) destination. IF they wanted to go to New Zealand would NZ returning them to Australia be OK with Morescum? I doubt it. Don't forget The LieNP want to reduce the 20,000 refugee total to much less and will never allow the LABOR lot to conclude a working arrangement with our northern neighbours. Keeping it unsolved suites them even if people drown. They play it for the maximum effect. More saboteurs than opposition. Their job is to point out deficiencies and offer better solutions. NOT to make the Gov't unable to implement recommended policies then bag them for it not happening. Australia has suffered by the actions of the LieNP in opposition. It will suffer far more when they get in and implement their ill conceived plans that favour Murdock and mine owners and their other supporters and unwind all the good done by Gillard's ( and the independents) efforts. The "GROANS" have fallen in my estimation. They too are prepared to gain at Labor's expense and help Abbott gain power so they MIGHT get some of the (damaged) Australia that's left. Greens have had my vote in the past But NOT NOW Christine.

Tom of Melbourne

14/06/2013Really? Your comment referred to indigenous people who didn't vote according to your own views as 'uncle toms' among other disparaging terms. Don't bother with the explanation for your racism weeks after the event. ______ Jason, the federal police gave sworn evidence that they considered this to be the case. It's only luck that they got the facts so wrong.

Pikiranku

14/06/2013Yesterday ABC24 started running a line across the bottom of the screen saying that 'Unemployment remains steady at 5.5%'. Unemployment is NOT steady at 5.5% - it has dropped from 5.6% to 5.5%. But that message is still there today. Unchanged! What's going on?

Patriciawa

14/06/2013 I certainly missed Lyn this morning! Time seems to have stood still, or the clock is very slow. Good idea, TT, here's a link to the Guardian for you. There'll be about a thousand comments there soon, so I reckon it's worth a peek. The article isn't that hot, but the comments are what I've linked to. Good to see such an outburst of pride in our PM and outrage at that idiot shock jockjock here in WA. Some disagree, of course, but as usual they can't spell or write a sentence without being abusive. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/13/julia-gillard-howard-sattler-interview?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487#start-of-comments

Pikiranku

14/06/2013Tom of Melbum I absolutely did NOT use the term 'uncle toms' not imply any such judgement. What I did say was that, in the light of the policy I was discussing, any indigenous person who voted for the Lnp had rocks in their head. Sadly, it appears that your memory is beginning to fail you. Perhaps the problem stems from the rocks in your head.

TalkTurkey

14/06/201342 long That was very well put. I really have to disagree with this bit though: [i]Australia has suffered by the actions of the LieNP in opposition. It will suffer far more when they get in [/i] "will ... when they get in" should read "would ... if they got in" Let us not countenance the possibility of an Abborrrtt win. Labor is now at next-to-top gear - and we are burning the Bastards off. Just saw SH-Y - LOOKING GOOD AND NICE! - really kicking Abborrrttians - and this is as it should be. Christine Milne is disastrous, a dinosaur as should-be-extinct as Michelle Grattan! She would rather be Leader of the pissant Groons with an Abborrrrttian Government than lose relevance even more dramatically under a Labor Government with its own majority. It is an unforgivably mendacious position and she should be expelled as GROON #1 NOW! So go on SH-Y, if you want Bob Brown's Party to have any credibility whatsoever, challenge the old harpy! Shorten v Abetzzz today with Uhlmann in the chair was a DISASTER for Labor! Betcha you're all amazed I say that. But look at it this way. Shorten so [i]utterly[/i] destroyed Abetzzz that the Liberals are going to do ANYTHING NOT to go on face-to-face encounters like that one! And that's TRUE too! :) [Onya Bill Well done Comrade.]

Truth Seeker

14/06/2013Ad, thanks so much for your kind words WRT my post it means a great deal coming from you, who's writing inspires so many :-) :-) TT, have placed my order for your book :-) Cheers :-)

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14/06/2013Thanks TT. When abbott gets in? Well according to all the wishers and experts he will. I certainly hope not!!!. I can't see one good thing he might do and I fear a lot of the things he won't be able to stop himself doing. He is a wrecker and a barbarian. How do I know? I've watched him for years looking for a ray of hope, but what do I see? A mental Chamelion who does everything for effect and changes the story for each new audience. Someone who believes he holds all the cards that matter, but at the end of the day HE will be found wanting. He is a hollow man who has not found himself, whose aim is power at any price and aligns his party with the wishes of those who fund him and counsel him. He will do their bidding and that will not be in the country's interests. The rest of the world will say ("What did YOU do THAT for?" IF we elect him.

42 long

14/06/2013Listened to Bob ELLIS and Phillip ADAMS last night. Did anyone else do so. I found it quite interesting.

Jason

14/06/2013ABC News‏@abcnews4m #BREAKING Perth radio host Howard Sattler sacked after asking Prime Minister Julia Gillard whether partner Tim Mathieson is gay Retweeted by ABC News 24

Casablanca

14/06/2013ABC24 have just announced that Howard Sattler has been sacked. Principled decision by Perth Station.

Casablanca

14/06/2013[b]Julia. Crazy Brave Warrior Women. [/b] By Mary Delahunty. June 13, 2013 [quote]The thing you have to understand about Julia Gillard is that she has broken the mold. I don’t mean just smashing the ultimate glass ceiling to become Australia’s first female Prime Minister, I mean the way she has gone about her political business, particularly in the last twelve months.[/quote] http://thehoopla.com.au/julia-crazy-brave-warrior-woman/

42 long

14/06/2013DelaHunty was not my favourite polly but I give her 9/10 for that article. Eventually the trolls find it and do their best to humiliate and insult. That is the way they converse. The plot is Gillard BAD AS HELL... Abbort Perfect and Untouchable. and all you f%@&!(&%'s are idiots who don't agree, Truly enlightening stuff. I heard Fairfax had something to do with the WA interview sacking and It was early in the day. Could that be?

Janet (jan@j4gypsy)

14/06/2013TPSers, to help with our withdrawals from the beautiful busy Lynnie's daily feast of links, some evening reading from blogs/online media in the last 24 hrs (and yes, TT – Lyn has been teaching us just how to do this, as evidenced by links dropping in from all over :-); and apologies – can only contribute links in arvos/evenings and hope am not referencing links already contributed): [b]Steve ‘slit her throat’ Ciobo[/b] [i]David Donovan[/i] The menugate saga has once more highlighted the language of vitriol and pattern of behaviour the Liberal Party engages in – sniggering schoolboy antics and childish personal insults – with former Howard government minister Mal Brough, a man embroiled in controversy due to his involvement in theAshbygate affair, hosting shadow treasurer Joe Hockey at a venue in Brisbane. The dinner menu contained several offensive dishes but the main offender – the Morrocan Quail – has garnered international headlines. I’m sure they laughed heartily at the expense of the PM and no doubt pat each other on the back with pride. Not only was it sickening, but the premise is old — it is simply a rehashed KFC meme that I first saw doing the rounds on Facebook a couple of years ago. http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/steve-slit-her-throat-ciobo/ [b]#FFSF What the hell is wrong with you people?[/b] [i]YaThink?[/i] From Alan Jones to Tony Abbott, I do not think there has been a female in this country that has been reviled in the media as much as Julia Gillard.  I am sure in the future there will be many a thesis done on this very subject and a whole new generation of political talking heads will be talking about the “shameful depth of Australian politics back in the day...” Or proudly claiming “Haven’t we come so far now since those shameful sexist days when we as a nation could not respect a woman in power”?   http://yathink.com.au/article-display/what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-people,77 [b]Australia, let's talk about manners[/b] [i]Ben Pobjie[/i] We might have thought that that was going to be the nadir of this teeth-grindingly tacky week, but then West Australian talk radio host and alleged adult Howard Sattler demonstrated that our concepts of “bottom of the barrel” were wildly optimistic. Asking Julia Gillard if her boyfriend was gay, and then asking again, and then quite hilariously saying, “it’s not me saying it”, Howard took the concept of “journalism”, turned it inside out, and wore it like a particularly stupid hat. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/14/gillard-sattler-hairdresser-radio?CMP=twt_gu [b]Gillard: The leader we had to have[/b] [i]Gabrielle Chan[/i] Australia’s first female prime minister’s very existence has held up a mirror to the nation’s approach to gender and the image reflected back is like The Picture of Dorian Gray. Not the shining harmonious portrait of equality we once thought but an altogether uglier, inconsistent darker study. We thought our approach to gender was growing into a beauty. Turns out, it is covered in boils. Never has this been more evident than this week. http://thehoopla.com.au/gillard-leader/ [b]A line in the sand[/b] [i]Samuel Mullins[/i] I used to think the argument that Prime Minister Gillard has been excessively targeted for abuse was a pretty dubious proposition. I used to think that although there was clearly some elements of sexism amongst some of the criticism and abuse, you could easily find equivalents in, say, the casually anti-catholic nature of some of the criticism of Tony Abbott. I used to think the Prime Minister was using whatever sexism towards her existed as a weapon against her opponents, rather than as a weapon to fight sexism itself. I used to think all of that. But it’s pretty hard to think that anymore. http://ausvotes2013.com/2013/06/13/a-line-in-the-sand/ [b]Message from the Chief of Army[/b] (note: video [and comment: superb]) Message from the Chief of Army, Lieutenant General David Morrison, AO, to the Australian Army following the announcement on Thursday, 13 June 2013 of civilian police and Defence investigations into allegations of unacceptable behaviour by Army members. http://www.army.gov.au/Our-work/Speeches-and-transcripts/Message-from-the-Chief-of-Army [b]Uncle Tom Cobbley[/b] [i]David Horton[/i] Australia and its states are soon going to be ruled by governments incorporating misogynists, monarchists, homophobes, religious fundamentalists ... http://davidhortonsblog.com/2013/06/14/uncle-tom-cobbley/ [b]An invitation to Tony Abbott[/b] [i]Michael Taylor[/i] Three months out from the federal election Tony Abbott must be very frustrated. He has only three months to tell us what he will do as Prime Minister but the mainstream media (MSM) cruelly refuse to hand him the microphone. He must be wondering why they’re not interested in asking him those little things about policies, plans, visions. I’m sure he has many. I’m sure he wants to tell us what they are. If the MSM refuse to show him some courtesy then he has one alternative: the independent media. We would love to accommodate him. We’d love to ask him those questions that the MSM so rudely ignore. http://theaimn.com/2013/06/13/an-invitation-to-tony-abbott/ [b]Assertions, the Greens and the Black Knight[/b] [i]Preston Towers[/i] One of the chief weaknesses of political reporting and blogging in the leadup to the 2013 election is assertions.  Assertions that x will happen because of y – and the y is usually based on evidence that is part gutfeel and part reading media reports through an already constructed prism.  It would be good to try to negotiate a more objective path than what we see from our media, but this could well be an almost impossible task in 2013.  Disappointingly, the latest piece by Ausvotes’ own Paula Matthewson in theGuardian Comment is Free section is another example of this assertion opinion making. http://ausvotes2013.com/2013/06/14/assertionsandgreens/ [b]Don't Let The Sea Take Any More[/b] [i]Trevor Grant[/i] This apparent difference in the Federal Government's reaction to rescue and recovery on the high seas prompts many deeper questions about the issue of asylum seekers. These were unambiguously stated by the ABC’s Fran Kelly on Radio National Breakfast this week during an interview with Immigration Minister Brendan O’Connor. “If this was a ferry with Australians on board that had capsized, there’s no way those bodies would just be left, there’s no way a government minister would not take some action there,” Kelly said. Of course, despite the minister’s protestations, we all know that Kelly is right. The bodies of Australians would be recovered come hell or high water. http://newmatilda.com/2013/06/12/dont-let-sea-take-any-more [b]Fifteen fabulous success stories Australians must never be told[/b] [i]Alan Austin[/i] AUSTRALIA IS NOT just a success story — it is an anthology of success stories. Ascendancy in so many areas — all at the same time. Europeans wish they had these narratives. They would dance in the streets. (Actually, Europeans still dance in the streets, despite everything.) As for Americans and Canadians, they would lap up every word. But here’s the thing. In Australia these stories are seldom, if ever, told. Not a hint from a Hartcher, not a mention from a Mitchell, not a suggestion from a Sales and not a clue from a Crabb. Historians will ponder and explore these 15 accomplishments with wonder and delight. http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/business/media-2/fifteen-fabulous-success-stories-australians-must-never-be-told/ [b]A letter on our future from an activist elder[/b] [i]Gratton Wilson [/i] The signs are clear. A Coalition government would join with State colleagues in changes that would result in irreversible damage to our environment. Media commentators say the government is not getting its various messages out to the public. The media does not seem to like the Prime Minister’s voice and does not listen to what she says. They write about some silly kid throwing a sandwich at her and totally ignore policy statements. But it is the policies that matter. I certainly have no trouble comprehending the many policies that have been announced and delivered. It’s strange that the media is so obsessed with trivia. http://nofibs.com.au/a-letter-on-our-future-from-an-activist-elder/ [b]Turbulent Times Ahead For Renewables[/b] [i]Ben Eltham[/i] Just how anti-renewable energy is the Coalition? That's the question the multi-billion dollar Australian wind industry is asking this week, after reports that Liberal energy spokesman Ian Macfarlane is considering crippling new regulations for wind farms should the Coalition win government in 14 September. The report, from The Guardian's Lenore Taylor, tells of a Coalition proposal to require “real-time noise monitoring” on all existing wind farms. http://newmatilda.com/2013/06/13/turbulent-times-ahead-renewables [b]Plagued: TB and me[/b] [i]Jo Chandler[/i] Sometime in those few days, somewhere, someone coughed or sneezed or sang or laughed, spraying a cloud of invisible Mycobacterium tuberculosis into the air, and I inhaled. By the time my ride out finally materialises on the tarmac and I click my heels for home, it seems I have a stowaway. Eighteen months later, in March 2013, I am diagnosed with multidrug-resistant tuberculosis (MDR TB). Let’s call it accidental immersion journalism. http://www.theglobalmail.org/feature/plagued-tb-and-me/639/ [b]Affordable housing in St Kilda[/b] 13 June 2013 Joint Media Release With:  The Hon Michael Danby MP Parliamentary Secretary for the Arts Federal Member for Melbourne Ports Minister for Housing and Homelessness Mark Butler today joined Federal Member for Melbourne Ports Michael Danby to visit a new affordable housing complex recently opened as part of the Gillard Labor Government’s $4.5 billion National Rental Affordability Scheme. During the visit to the Maxx Apartments complex, managed by Mission Australia, Mr Danby said the Government remained committed to easing housing pressures in Melbourne. “We know that housing affordability is a concern for many Australian families, including right here in St Kilda, and we’re investing heavily to address that concern,” Mr Danby said. “Of the 108 apartments in this complex, 12 have been set aside to be rented at lower than market rate to tenants on low or moderate incomes by Mission Australia under the National Rental Affordability Scheme. http://markbutler.fahcsia.gov.au/node/61 [This is included just to lead to this next link, which offers a broad overview of just about every bit of implementation the Govt is undertaking: i.e. a daily collection of are media releases ...] http://media.australia.gov.au/notify/releases-by-portfolio.html?collection=releases

Tom of Melbourne

14/06/2013Pikiranku, I really cannot be bothered searching the thread again, but I’m willing to assert that you used specific racist terms to disparage indigenous people for exercising their free will about their voting preferences. That makes you a rank hypocrite.

Curi-Oz

14/06/2013Thanks Janet! I've just posted my reaction after this week of the PM's visit to Western Australia - http://curiozcorner.wordpress.com/

Jason

14/06/2013ToM, "That makes you a rank hypocrite." WTF is it you do for anyone? Yes you write the odd angry word but you do SFA!

TalkTurkey

14/06/2013She says it REAL WELL! http://victoriarollison.com/2013/06/14/an-open-letter-to-the-mainstream-media/ Gypsy Janet Wow Girl you sure "fill in" for Lynnie admirably! This is such a good site eh! Makes me misty. Often. But I am a bit 'shame of something I should've said a couple of weeks ago. To Pappinbarra Fox. Dear Foxy Lady I know and understand that our big Grizzly Bear Nasking got the wrong end of the stick in your brief exchange, he responded as if you were having a go, and I knew at the time that wasn't right. I'm NOT having a go at Nas, but I should have supported you then, my bad, sorry. We know you are a staunch Comrade and a credit to TPS, be seeing you eh!

jane

14/06/2013Lyn, hope the move goes smoothly. TT @1.46am, when the news of the adf emails broke, I (inappropriately I confess) did a mental air punch. Here was confirmation of endemic sexism & misogyny. This can't be explained away by accusing the PM of being a sook or she can't take an inoffensive private joke, (although how anyone in their right mind could possibly claim it was private, inoffensive or funny, is credible). And I wonder if any of them would be quite as sanguine if their close female relatives were the subject of the sort of sexist abuse the PM has had directed at her. It confirms everything she's been saying about the Liars and their barrackers. I notice Liealot has been trying desperately to change the subject, but it's a bit like a bushfire with a north wind behind it; it's got a life of its own and for once the msm's attention has been engaged. And its first victim has been claimed, one of that sickening cabal of putrid grubs aka shock jocks. Let's hope that Anal is the next to topple. I imagine the impact of his bloated putrescent body on the earth will register quite highly on the Richter scale. Pikiranku @1.53pm, roflmao!

Casablanca

14/06/2013Full marks to the GM of 6PR. Here is his response to my email of complaint to him (see Casablanca@June 14. 2013 01:16 AM) [quote]Thank you for your email. We accept that Howard Sattler's line of questioning on Thursday 13 June with Prime Minister Julia Gillard was disrespectful to the office and the person of the Prime Minister and was entirely inappropriate. Radio 6PR apologises for this broadcast. Also, Radio 6PR has apologised unreservedly to Ms Gillard and Mr Mathieson for allowing these matters to be raised on the Drive program. In the wake of Thursday's interview, Radio 6PR suspended Mr Sattler from broadcasting pending a review of the matter. The review is complete and the station has now terminated Mr Sattler's engagement. We value your feedback and always appreciate comments from our listeners. Regards, Martin MARTIN BOYLEN General Manager 6PR & 96fm[/quote] I have now sent Martin Boylen a letter congratulating him for his principled action.

Patriciawa

15/06/2013Casablanca, I wouldn't be surprised if Martin Boylen weren't glad of the opportunity to take this 'principled action' to be rid of Sattler at last. Let's hope the bstd doesn't become a martyr over here in the west. I imagine the station were careful to look at all the legalities before firing him. TT, thanks for the Rollinson link. Great read. I guess she doesn't need to mention that Canberra Press Gallery are nearly all Murdoch's media minions and paid by him to campaign for Abbott. We need an epiphany for Rupert. But surely even he should already be able to see what a fool the man is? Janet thanks for stepping in with the links! I wonder if Lyn is finished unpacking for the day and has hit the hay? 'Night all!

Capstan

15/06/2013Further to the farce that control of boat arrivals has become - read this account by a an experienced immigration officer of the bullshit that you have allowed: [i]"THE refugee determination process in Australia is a sick and dysfunctional farce. This is the verdict of people at its coalface. Their collective judgment is that you could get a blind donkey refugee status in Australia. It is not that the system is run by bad people, certainly not by corrupt people. But the system is so loosely designed, so completely open to manipulation by asylum-seekers, people-smugglers and community groups emotionally committed to asylum-seekers, and then interacts inappropriately with the Australian legal system, that it has become a multi-billion-dollar joke that is more or less completely worthless. This week I have spoken to a number of serving and former Immigration Department officials, members of the Refugee Review Tribunal, the independent assessments review body and workers at various detention centres. I have obtained a copy of a written account by a former senior Immigration Department official. It is very depressing. The official writes: "In the case of boatpeople, most are flying to Indonesia or Malaysia and there has been a growing trend to effectively prebook their voyage. They are less interested in seeking protection than in gaining work and residence rights in Australia. These are people who would largely be ineligible for normal migration but by claiming to be in fear of persecution they are usually allowed to stay in Australia, even though many will later visit their homeland once they have an Australian passport. "I can confidently say that we are approving large numbers of people who are fabricating claims, and indeed the current refugee determination system works in favour of those who are most adept at spinning a yarn. "That is not to say that myself, and others, did not deal with people who had been badly affected by generalised violence in countries like Afghanistan and Sri Lanka, but this is quite different from having a credible contemporary claim of persecution. It appeared to me the majority of people I was dealing with had been fed claims which were known to be the sort of statements that were being accepted for approval. "I remember one young applicant saying to me that it is known in the detention centre that you had to say you had been kidnapped if you wanted to be approved, and it is this sort of enhancing and inventing of claims, no doubt aided by the communications facilities we provide to the detainees, which is contributing to the deluge of boat cases we are currently experiencing. "There was a small number of claimants who were being honest and these people often told quite sad stories of poverty, owing money lenders, being involved in family disputes (or) being threatened because of a romantic involvement. Such claims were likely to be refused for being outside the (Refugee) Convention but if a vague story was presented involving threats by groups like the Taliban or the Sri Lankan military, such applications were more likely to be approved. As the Captain Emad episode showed, it is easy to hide your identity, and even your nationality, in the refugee process, so presenting a fabricated story is not a difficult undertaking. "Unlike other visa classes there is no objective criteria ... "There is a benefit of the doubt test in the convention which weights the decision-making process towards the applicant and various court decisions have leant towards the view that if a claim cannot be disproved then it is difficult to refuse. "While there is some public acknowledgment that many members of ethnic communities in Australia are paying and organising (at least in part) the travel of friends and relatives on the boats, much less attention is given to those who are monitoring the decision-making process and are identifying the type of claims that are having most success. "From interviewing many asylum claimants the overwhelming primary objective is to obtain the right to work in Australia. This is so they can send money back to their families and repay loans which have been taken for their travel. There are other factors such as the welfare and houses we provide." This experienced immigration officer, like numerous others, refers to the new experience of middle-class Iranian asylum-seekers dissatisfied with social conditions in Iran. A former member of the Refugee Review Tribunal, who also participated in the independent review assessments of refugee claims, told me: "I was dealing with Iranians who had left Tehran a week before arriving at Christmas Island." He, like others, spoke of an aggressive entitlement mentality among Iranians. This was backed up by a health worker at a detention centre who said he had told an Iranian there was a three-week waiting list for an appointment with an optometrist. This was no good, the Iranian said. He had money and could pay to go private. Another worker at the camps described assaults and intimidation of staff that are never reported or acted on and for which asylum-seekers suffer no penalty. The senior immigration officer says that if the refugee convention is interpreted the way the UN High Commissioner for Refugees wants it to be interpreted, then there is absolutely no limit to the "literally millions" of people who could claim asylum so long as they get to Australia. The former RRT member says his work was demoralising and meaningless. He was charged with reviewing departmental decisions not to award refugee status to an individual. If he upheld the department's decision - that is, said no to an asylum claimant - he might have to write 20 to 40 pages of argument justifying his decision as it was certain to be appealed in the courts. If he overturned the department and recommended granting refugee status, he need only write one page and no one would ever review or question the decision. While no one told him to decide in favour of asylum claimants, there was an overwhelming pressure to clear numbers as quickly as possible. This will get worse in the future, as processing is temporarily suspended and a huge backlog is building up. Refugee acceptance rates after all levels of review are now 95 per cent and above. Any quasi-judicial process that achieves a result like that has to be questioned, he says. "I would sometimes receive a completely compelling story that was impossible to refuse. "The problem is I would receive exactly the identical story a hundred times over, with only the names changed. People on Christmas Island would tell me to my face they had copied their story from someone else." All the cases that went to court resulted in transcripts produced by the courts. These transcripts, with key winning testimony highlighted, were widely circulated among claimants, and their advocates, at Christmas Island. What the officials describe is a process degenerated into farce, which costs billions of dollars. Even those who are refused refugee status are not sent back. This system has nothing to do with fairly determining refugee status and nothing to do with protecting Australia's national interests. [b]It is folly, futility and charade[/b]." [/i]

Jason

15/06/2013Spare me! The ADF's chief Misogynist has popped his head up to lecture us again!

Ad astra

15/06/2013[b]Good Morning Lyn I hope your move to your new house has been trouble free and that you are both settling into your lovely new environment. We hope you will enjoy setting up your new home over the next few days. We are thinking of you and missing you. We look forward to your return to [i]TPS[/i] next Tuesday. Best wishes from us all.[/b]

Jason

15/06/2013I have no time for a Misogynist like you! Secondly I couldn't give a F#ck how many have drowned,Stepping out your front door each day is a risk, jumping in an un seaworthy boat is also risky. It isn't my fault if people are stupid.

Tom of Melbourne

15/06/2013Isn’t that big of Howes – telling ALP MPs that they’re able to exercise their free will about who leads them, without him telling them. That he’s able to release elected MPs from an obligation to follow the direction of a non elected union hack, says plenty about the state of the ALP.

Sir Ian Crisp

15/06/2013[quote][b]I have no time for a Misogynist like you! Secondly I couldn't give a F#ck how many have drowned,Stepping out your front door each day is a risk, jumping in an un seaworthy boat is also risky. It isn't my fault if people are stupid. Jason [/b][/quote] Now then Big JGuy, that doesn't sound like you. I believe under your exterior of a tough guy lies a new-age man who does the dishes and knows how much detergent to put in the washing machine. Don't be afraid to let that soft side of yorn shine through.

Jason

15/06/2013Sir Ian, Funny you should mention that! In the 9 years since my knee replacement due to having my leg crushed at work, so I only do casual work when it suits me now like shut downs etc. I'm a house husband! take today for instance dropped daughter at work, emptied dish washer, have almost finished the washing just need to hang it out, have done the bathrooms will vacuum and mop the floors make the beds and my day is done! Not only that as qualified chef I do all the cooking! That said I still couldn't careless if people drown! If I was going to part with $10 to 15,000 dollars to get here I'd expect to see the QEII in the port not a dodgy over crowded fishing boat.

Paul or Berwick

15/06/2013Came across this - Judging the ALP since 2007: - http://theaimn.com/2013/05/28/judging-gillard-and-the-labor-government/ It seems that they have been busy, and that the achievements go beyond the NDIS, the NBN & MySchools!

TalkTurkey

15/06/2013From SMH And yes I reckon the sour old curmudgeon Eva Cox and "Destroy the Joint bandwaggoneer" Jane Caro (oh well put AS!) are exactly what women don't need at all. But let this stir you Girls. Because women have to win this one for us all. BTW I tweeted wtte Please Girls JOIN THE LABOR PARTY NOW, and some replied they would, or had joined in the last few days! Gee I'm chuffed. Now Anne Summers' article, in full because it's not all that big. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It's Gillard's right to fight back ANNE SUMMERS June 15, 2013 Targeting the female vote: Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard. Targeting the female vote: Prime Minister Julia Gillard. Photo: Jackson Flindell Does Julia Gillard have a woman problem? On Tuesday she launched Women for Gillard, a campaigning organisation designed to boost her support and to raise funds, which is modelled on the highly effective Women for Obama campaign run in the US last year. At this forum the Prime Minister spoke on how women might fare in political representation and in policy outcomes under an Abbott government. What on earth else would you expect her to speak about at such an event: the defence white paper? Yet she has been roundly attacked for doing so, and not by the usual misogynist mainstream media crowd. Before they could even get their gleeful paws on the story and trumpet, yet again, how foolish and misguided the PM was to re-engage the "gender wars", they were - astonishingly - knocked out of the ring by the dismissive comments of several feminists. Gillard's speech was "a rather desperate attempt to exploit the gender tensions that exist in our society," proclaimed academic Eva Cox. She described it as "rather limp, probably professionally devised". weighed in, attacking Gillard for raising the issue of abortion: "Strategically, this is not something that should be shouted loudly from the rooftops and certainly not by our first female PM," she wrote in Fairfax Media on Wednesday. Then there was the "Sorry Julia. But women aren't buying your gender wars" headline on the usually Gillard-friendly mamamia website. I thought that one of the reasons we wanted women elected to our parliaments was so they would champion gender equality.

TalkTurkey

15/06/2013When I said "let this stir you girls" I actually meant THIS!http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_424015&feature=iv&src_vid=Sb4AdU6rbFc&v=KYQKWP0cfsw But I forgot to paste it.

Jason

15/06/2013Capstan, Diet and exercise and I'll be slim! You and the rest of your scummy mates in the ADF will still be Misogynist though! As for shutting my big mouth put your military skills to use and track me down and shut it yourself.

Pikiranku

15/06/2013Poor Old Tom (affectionately known as Potty) I'm not sure whether you're genuinely confused or, like most Lieberals, just making it up as you go along. But I assure you your memory is failing you. Perhaps it's because of those hard things rattling about in your head.

Pikiranku

15/06/2013Jane Thanks for the support ... and the education! Roflmho - I had to look that up! Thanks to you, too, Jason. I'm sure that Swordsters know me well enough by now to know that racism is not part of my thinking and racial terminology is not part of my vocabulary.

Pikiranku

15/06/2013Roflmho! That's what I did yesterday when Abetz pulled out his little blue booklet and tucked it under his chin. Anyone who's ever listened to David Bradbury in Question Time would have been paralytic.

Tom of Melbourne

15/06/2013Maybe I'll have to look up your comment, and show what an outrageous racist comment you made about indigenous people who don't vote the way you think they should. I'm sure you know their wishes and interests better than they do.

nasking

15/06/2013 [b]The party is over, and it’s time for those who enjoyed it to pay the fiddler. Educated bandits chipped, chiseled and finally drove down the American promise. Awake and take back your Republic. Run these bastards out of town on a rail. [/b] http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/06/14/gangsta-government/

Jason

15/06/2013Capstan You're a pimple on the arse of life! I couldn't care less what you've done with your miserable life!Nor do I care where you did and didn't serve! In the words of Snannia Twain http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqFLXayD6e8

nasking

15/06/2013 [b]Acid gas, soot, and dust emissions from coal burning are, along with diesel engines, the biggest contributors to microscopic particulate pollution that penetrates deep into the lungs and the bloodstream. The pollution causes heart attacks and lung cancer, as well as increasing asthma attacks and other respiratory problems that harm the health of both children and adults. "Tens of thousands of kilogrammes of toxic metals such as mercury, lead, arsenic and cadmium are spewed out of the stacks, contributing to cancer risk and harming children's development," says the Greenpeace report, which does not emphasise the impact of coal burning on climate change.[/b] http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/jun/12/european-coal-pollution-premature-deaths?CMP=twt_fd

nasking

15/06/2013 [b]The Duchy’s holdings of land and property form the bulk of its assets, worth £693m, and stretch across 23 counties, including most of the Scilly Isles, Dartmoor Prison, the Oval cricket ground in central London, a Holiday Inn in Reading and the Prince’s private homes such as Highgrove. To this extensive list has now been added property title BM191066, otherwise known as the Waitrose distribution centre in Brinklow, Milton Keynes, whose new owners are listed by the Land Registry as “His Royal Highness Charles Philip Arthur George, Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay, Earl of Chester and Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles and Great Steward of Scotland”, and the Duchy. The sale price was £38,385,500. Like all other significant Duchy transactions, the deal in November 2011 with Indian property fund Meghraj Properties had to be approved by the Lord Commissioners of the Treasury, an ancient post held by Government whips. The depot, built in 1993 to withstand 20 million lorry journeys over its lifetime, sits awkwardly with the heir to the throne’s well-publicised love of traditional architecture along with his emphasis on rural life and environmental sustainability. The purchase of the 396,000 sq ft warehouse is not the first link between Charles and the John Lewis Partnership supermarket. A previous deal between the Duchy and Waitrose in 2009 saw it take over the once-troubled Duchy Originals organic food brand, which now generates more than £1m a year for the prince’s charities. When The Independent yesterday approached Clarence House with evidence of the warehouse purchase, it insisted there was no connection with the Duchy Originals tie-up, adding it was a “coincidence” that Waitrose was the tenant of the industrial complex. The revelations come at an uncomfortable time for the Duchy, which is facing a private members’ bill in the House of Lords demanding that its structure be radically overhauled and its surplus income – £18.3m last year – be distributed to Cornwall rather than to the heir to throne. The bill’s sponsor, Labour peer Lord Berkeley, says the Duchy is a “feudal anachronism”.[/b] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/revealed-prince-charless-secret-property-deals--including-a-38-million-industrial-carbuncle-8659596.html

Austin 3:16

15/06/2013 [quote]Any indigenous Australian who votes Lieberal is either a toady or has rocks in their head. Pikiranku April 7. 2013 02:20 PM The Political Sword Article: "What was Leigh Sales’ intent with PM Gillard?" [/quote] It's patronising and demeaning but I dunno if it's actually racist per se.

Austin 3:16

15/06/2013Hey Jason, [quote]That said I still couldn't careless if people drown! If I was going to part with $10 to 15,000 dollars to get here I'd expect to see the QEII in the port not a dodgy over crowded fishing boat.[/quote] Said the privileged first world white guy. Maybe refugees don't actually get a lot of choice as to the quality of the boast that they travel on.

Tom of Melbourne

15/06/2013Well, when a white person calls black people names on the basis of their race, because they’ve decided how they prefer to vote, I think that pretty well qualifies as racism. Thank you for finding the quote.

nasking

15/06/2013 [b]Three Guineas is a book-length essay by Virginia Woolf, published in June 1938. [/b] [b]Woolf was eager to tie the issues of war and feminism together in what she saw as a crucial point in history[/b]. She and her husband Leonard had visited both Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy in the early part of the decade. [b]The ideology of fascism was an affront to Woolf's conviction in pacifism as well as feminism: Nazi philosophy, for example, supported the removal of women from public life.[/b] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Guineas

Catching up

15/06/2013Yes, those officials got it very correct in the Howard days. Long time since I have heard of Australian citizens locked up or deported. One child left in care, as his mother disappeared. Yes, a very sick woman put on a plane, after being hit by a car. Suspect some of those language tests, that claimed they carry as little weight. The claim that they were ot Afghan but from neighboring countries. Of course the infallibly method, of measuring the size of the wrist, led to many adolescents being jailed. Yes, they done it well. I am sick of hearing all day, that an insignificant Labor back bencher has asked the PM to resign. So what. Just been mentioned a dozen times, with minutes, Every comment, worded around "Murphy"

nasking

15/06/2013 [b]Everybody knows if you are too careful you are so occupied in being careful that you are sure to stumble over something. Gertrude Stein[/b] Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/gertrudest121831.html#8eLtoXIT15mcIPem.99

Pikiranku

15/06/2013Here's the context: "How do indigenous Territorians think they're going to do better under an LNP government? How will they fare in Gina's northern economic zone? Control over country, land rights, compensation for mining activities, shared dividends from mining projects, decent employment opportunities, fair wages? Forget it all! Any indigenous Australian who votes Lieberal is either a toady or has rocks in their head." First question: How WILL they fare in Gina's northern economic zone? Second Question: When did I say I was white?

nasking

15/06/2013 “As long as she thinks of a man, nobody objects to a woman thinking.” ― Virginia Woolf, Orlando “No passion is stronger in the breast of a man than the desire to make others believe as he believes. Nothing so cuts at the root of his happiness and fills him with rage as the sense that another rates low what he prizes high.” ― Virginia Woolf, Orlando

nasking

15/06/2013 Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind; Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html INDEED N'

nasking

15/06/2013 I thought this to be a brilliant session...Patricia was FORTUNATE to be there: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W71Q-SOtk6A Everyone in Australia should view it before voting. In its entirety. N'

Sir Ian Crisp

15/06/2013[quote][b]Sir Ian, Funny you should mention that! In the 9 years since my knee replacement due to having my leg crushed at work, so I only do casual work when it suits me now like shut downs etc. I'm a house husband! take today for instance dropped daughter at work, emptied dish washer, have almost finished the washing just need to hang it out, have done the bathrooms will vacuum and mop the floors make the beds and my day is done! Not only that as qualified chef I do all the cooking! That said I still couldn't careless if people drown! If I was going to part with $10 to 15,000 dollars to get here I'd expect to see the QEII in the port not a dodgy over crowded fishing boat. Jason [/b][/quote] I knew you were a complicated guy, not like that tough persona you project. I wouldn't mind betting that you watch the Bold and the Beautiful with the wife and you get upset when Brook cries (which seems to be every 15 minutes). Am I right?

Catching up

15/06/2013So one cannot be tough if they do housework and care for the kids. I think, if one looks about them, there are plenty of tough women living the same life. In fact one has to be tough, to survive such a life. I fail to see how one lives their daily life, has to do with toughness. One thing such a life gives one, is the time to think. Now, I just had a thought and understand, housework is womens work, therefore cannot be that important, or that hard.

Jason

15/06/2013Said the privileged first world white guy. Maybe refugees don't actually get a lot of choice as to the quality of the boast that they travel on. Austin 3:16 What is you don't understand? I don't care! Anyway what is it you ToM, Capstan and anyone else do to help? Are you providing money a room in your houses? You know, I'm happy to admit I do nothing. I look forward to seeing a long list from all you humanitarians of your efforts!

Catching up

15/06/2013I once knew, as a child, a rugged timber getter, cutting down those trees big enough to need three jinkers to bring them out. He was known for the beautiful knitwear, he provided his family with. it was a brave man indeed, that pick him in any pub.

Jason

15/06/2013Nasking, Don't let that "wife basher" capstan put you off! All he has is piss and wind, you keep going.

Sir Ian Crisp

15/06/2013[quote][b] [...] I am sick of hearing all day, that an insignificant Labor back bencher has asked the PM to resign. So what. Just been mentioned a dozen times, with minutes, Every comment, worded around "Murphy" Catching up [/b][/quote] You're right Crapping Up. The insolence of John Murphy is breathtaking. It's the same John Murphy who was responsible for Beef Stroganoffgate. His well proportioned missus complained about the serving size of her Beef Stroganoff in the parliamentary dining room. I was a bit cheeky when it happened because I visited his electoral office at Burwood and dropped off a couple of cans of food (I think it was soup) and told the office worker to give them to the starving Mrs Murphy. What ALP turds the Murphys are.

Catching up

15/06/2013I should not say this, and I do not want to generalize. When I worked in child protection, in the Liverpool area, many decades ago, the notification I hated the most, where those that come from the nearby military establishment. Such arrogance and sexism was unbelievable. One had to cut through this, before one could deal with what was happening within the family. Once again, the comment from an insignificant Labor back bencher is getting a run. Maybe it is better today, as it is no longer a man's world. I do hope so. For both wives and children.

Tom of Melbourne

15/06/2013Yeah, right. According to you - • It isn’t racist to insult people on racial grounds • It’s fine to characterise all indigenous people with an exaggerated generalisation • Indigenous people don’t know what they’re doing, if they vote contrary to your preconceptions Rather than defend your stupid and racist comment, you should just apologise for it. Next we’ll get from you an Eddie Maguire defence – “I’m not at all racist, and that isn’t what I meant”

nasking

15/06/2013 [b]A leaked email has revealed the deep involvement of the wife of Opposition Leader Tony Abbott’s business tsar, Maurice Newman, and a blue-chip corporate consulting firm in a “Convoy of No Confidence”-aping anti-wind farm rally set down for Parliament House on Tuesday.[/b] The email, obtained by Crikey, was sent by Jeanette Newman last month to Linda Pahl, the wife of Sydney-based Bluegrass Consulting’s Rodd Pahl. The email was headed “THE NIGHTMARE COMES TRUE”, and in it Jeanette Newman, who likens her struggle to that of US whistleblower Erin Brockovich, issued a rousing call to arms: “It is imperative that as many people as possible attend. A poor attendance will be taken by politicians and the wind industry that we are conceding defeat. Whilst not true, that will be the perception and it will be shamelessly used against us to undermine our credibility.” Both the Pahls and the Newmans own property in the vicinity of proposed wind farms near the rural NSW squattocracy centres of Crookwell and Collector. A separate email chain, also obtained by Crikey, shows the Pahls’ involvement in a “Friends of Collector” group set up to fight wind developments near their estate. Bluegrass Consulting “lobbies governments through targeted, high level contact and grassroots campaigns”. Rodd Pahl was previously managing director of public affairs for the local arm of global firm Burson-Marsteller. The outfit’s storied history includes crisis management for Union Carbide after the Bhopal disaster. Yesterday, The Guardian Australia reported that Maurice Newman, who will head the Coalition’s Business Advisory Council in the event of a Coalition victory on September 14, vowed he would agitate to scrap the bipartisan Renewable Energy Target (RET), which mandates 20% of renewable energy by 2020. Newman is a former chairman of the ABC and the Australian Securities Exchange. He is a climate change sceptic and is a long-time supporter of anti-wind farm campaigns. In April, Newman hosted a meeting of anti-wind farm group the Crookwell District Landscape Guardians, where he warned the Coalition might not bend to his demands. An anonymous website, Stop These Things.com, registered to a Texan web domain rental operation, has recently cropped up to plug the rally, which will likely be attended by anti-abortion Senator John Madigan, climate change sceptic and soon-to-be-former Senator Ron Boswell, soon-to-be-former Liberal MP Alby Schultz, Liberal Senator Chris Back and Hughes MP Craig Kelly, who told federal Parliament in 2011 that drinking chardonnay was one answer to global warming. Shock jock Alan Jones will serve as master of ceremonies... http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/06/14/liberal-links-to-anti-wind-farm-fight-multiply/ Hmmm.. N'

Catching up

15/06/2013No, Murphy is free to say what he likes. What I am saying, what he says carries no weight, and is not as significant, as the media is working hard to make out. In any parliamentary party, there is always a handful of fools and discontents. That is human nature. That is obviously Murphy's opinion, which he is entitled to. All it shows, that the media has nothing to mount their attack on.

Jason

15/06/2013Pikiranku, ToM is a profesional Mourner!He only exist to be outraged on everyone elses behalf and no matter what you say he'll make it sound as though you said the opposite! Yes how dare ToM assume your white!

Catching up

15/06/2013 I have four kids. eleven grand kids. Six great, with the seventh on the way. Must have got something wrong.

Catching up

15/06/2013Congratulations on the new one. Still you have a long way to go, to catch up.

Bacchus

15/06/2013Just an opinion AA, but the personal abuse posted @ June 15. 2013 05:45 PM doesn't not deserve to remain, particularly in light of CU's life experiences! It's only redeeming feature is that it shows the absolute weakness of mind of the writer!

Jason

15/06/2013Capstan, "Sorry - got to go - one of my daughters has just had another beautiful child - must go and congratulate her and her husband. I hope she needed Anti D as you know I'm one of the 200 that produces it in this country!

Austin 3:16

15/06/2013Hey Jason, You're making a hell of a lot of noise for a subject you don't care about. And I was just pointing out you're in not position to make comment on what kind of vessel an asylum seeker chooses to come to Australia on. Which would be patently obvious to even yourself considering that "you don't care"

Catching up

15/06/2013nasking, that is interesting. The ABC has upped the ante on what Murphy said. Nothing new. Would say the whole weekend attack is based on that statement. At least they have dropped what they tried to strict h Howes up with. Will have to do better, one would think. Jason, do not take what he is saying to heart. II know from reading your comments over time, you are a good parent, and your kids come first. The man is an idiot. I thought the problem with lefties, was that they bred too much.

Catching up

15/06/2013Bacchus, it is OK. I think the man, if that is what one calls him, has made a complete fool of himself. I suspect I am getting it elsewhere today, from some of the comments here and elsewhere. Not that I can be bothered looking.

Jason

15/06/2013Catching Up, Thanks for the support! These tossers seem to want a bet each way. They do SFA themselves yet complain because I admit I do SFA. I can't win.

Catching up

15/06/2013Bacchus, there is really nothing special about my life. There have been many that trod the same path.

Miglo

15/06/2013I endorse what Bacchus said. The comments about Catching Up are straight from the gutter. This was a shameless personal attack from a person who must be composed of pure filth.

nasking

15/06/2013 [b]As he came down there was an unearthly scream [/b]as the full weight of the falling bull collapsed his heaving lungs, expelling through the trunk and sending an involuntary shiver through me. On the ground now, on bended knee the ochre coloured wet bull thrashed around with its trunk, paralysed unable to move. I reloaded as the empties flicked over my shoulder & the PH yelled to drill him again. As I approached I moved in quickly, not being sure at all exactly at that time what had happened. As I approached with some caution he lunged as far forward as his trunk & position allowed, trying to grab me. At this I placed two frontal brain shots into the now almost defunct bull and it was all over. {[b]Robert Borsak, Shooters and Fishers Party, writing about one of the elephants he killed}[/b] http://northcoastvoices.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/barry-ofibba-this-is-your-new-best-mate.html --- “[b]I ask people why they have deer heads on their walls. They always say because it's such a beautiful animal. There you go. I think my mother is attractive, but I have photographs of her.[/b]” ― [b]Ellen DeGeneres[/b] "[b]Whenever I see a photograph of some sportsman grinning over his kill, I am always impressed by the striking moral and esthetic superiority of the dead animal to the live one.[/b]" - [b]Edward Abbey, A Voice Crying in the Wilderness[/b]

nasking

15/06/2013 Cu, Bacchus, CAPSTAN IS OBVIOUSLY ANOTHER 'MUSCULAR CHRISTIAN'...AGGRESSIVE WORDS PROVIDE SOME INSIGHT INTO SUPPORTERS OF ABBOTT... ABUSIVE, ARCHAIC, BIGOTED, DESPERATE, FEARFUL, GUILT-RIDDEN, NARROW-MINDED, PATRIARCHAL, PSYCHOPATHIC, RAGING WINDBAGS. NEED THERAPY. N'

Jason

15/06/2013Miglo, As I've been saying all day "capstan" was/is nothing but a Misogynist and wife beater!Who just proved it by his cowardly attack on catching up! Yes he'll respond with some rubbish but it will mean nothing as we know his type and the ladies who comment here have seen the type of fellow he is! Toxic.

42 long

15/06/2013Crapstain that is a pretty nasty post. Perhaps your descendants won't like you much, if you are as your words would define you. What religion are you? They may be able to help ( or perhaps that is the problem).

Ken

15/06/2013Jason Just ignore the useless white mother...s. Capstan obviously forgot to burn his cross this morning, or perhaps he forgot to beat his wife. I think ToM is dyslectic because he obviously has a reading and comprehension problem. He doesn't seem to understand anything written here. All in all, not worth wasting time on the tossers, although we can perhaps feel a little sorry for them - no, that would be a waste of effort.

nasking

15/06/2013 [b]But you'll find out soon enough ... mate.[/b] My partner recommends that I report Capstan to the police. She believes he is threatening my life. N'

Catching up

15/06/2013Having a early life on the land, where guns were a part of life, I cannot understand why we are letting these people into out National Parks. Yes, I was taught to shot. Yes, but also how dangerous guns were. They where never seen as a plaything, but another tool need to run the farm. Over ridden with rabbits, I still remember my father crying, as h put those rabbits. inoculated with mysco down the warrens. (sorry cannot recall how to spell it)

42 long

15/06/2013I want to convert him to atheism.

nasking

15/06/2013 Cu, you are a good person. [b]In 1996 in the wake of the Port Arthur Massacre, then-Prime Minister John Howard risked his political reputation by introducing legislation that banned assault-style guns and dramatically restricted the importation and ownership of semi-automatic weapons. Howard's reforms demanded all guns be registered and the government spent millions of taxpayer dollars in a radical buy-back scheme. Gun ownership fell and so too did violent gun-related deaths. Now firearm ownership is on the increase again and part of the reason is the increased popularity of hunting. Most hunters say they want the government to open up National Parks for sport and they now have the political power to back their demands. In NSW, the Shooters and Fishers Party has the balance of power in the State's upper house. Some of their key demands involve making guns easier to obtain, and winding back restrictions on some semi-automatic weapons. "I think in certain contexts semi-automatics are useful in the right hands, in the right way they're not a danger to anybody." - Robert Borsack, NSW Shooters and Fishers Party It's a demand that concerns many in the city, but it's the Shooters and Fishers' other major demand that alarms people in the bush. The Party, having worked to gain access to State Forests, now wants hunters to gain access to National Parks. Robert Borsack claims it would help eradicate feral animals, but others who work in State Forests say it will result in people being killed.[/b] http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2013/06/10/3776198.htm ON THE ROAD TO AMERICA... ON THE ROAD TO NOWHERE N'

Bacchus

15/06/2013[quote]Bacchus, there is really nothing special about my life. There have been many that trod the same path.[/quote] I beg to differ CU - You AND those others are amazing just to survive such setbacks in life, let alone to thrive. The sort of rubbish that person posted could earn him a punch on the nose in polite company...

Catching up

15/06/2013End of a bruising week. Growing discontent, from an insignificant back bencher, that has long been letting his view known, That is extending. From my view, the woman has had a good week. No chance of that in the short term at least. No chance of what. By the way, they did acknowledge that Howes and everyone else, denied what the media has written today. Where has the Opposition gone? Of course, the way they are saying it, they are all lying. Fact and one fact only one fact, is that a insignificant has repeated what he has been saying for a long time, that the PM must go. Thankfully we will only have another couple of weeks of this. I do not know if one could stand much more. Maybe we should do, what the rest of the public is doing, turn off the media, and stop listening.

42 long

15/06/2013What about the lead contamination? This is apparently quite significant with Duck hunting which uses shot. I used to rifle shoot on the range at Bondi years ago. Once in Orange, where I was working on an orchard I borrowed an Eley 410 and went up the hill and blasted at some rabbits. There were so many that I killed or wounded 5 with one shot. I was so appalled that I despatched the not dead ones and gave the carcasses to someone with tin hair dogs and I have never wanted to shoot an animal since. Letting shooters have the balance of power is regretful. Ducks collect on my dam and they are very likeable creatures. They must be there for other than being shot. When you eat one you have to dig the pellets out and they are so oily they would make good candles. I have only tried it once and did not want to embarrass the host.

Catching up

15/06/2013nasking, I am a cynic when it comes to Howard's action. The outcry was so great, he had no choice. Even so, he played the tragedy to the hilt. Has not stop his party, from slowly pulling back the bans on guns. little by little, until we have the gun lobby, the tail, wagging the Liberal dog. Howard was great at turning tragedy to his advantage. Sorry, nasking, I would like to give him the credit, but cannot. Maybe this PM needs a good tragedy to reign over. Not that I expect, the PM would used it to her advantage. Did not happen in the major fires and flood over the last few years. Did not stop Abbott from milking the same, for political purposes. Another difference between this PM and Howard, we do not see her out usurping the role of GG, as Howard did at all opportunities. The PM does not show much interest in the trimmings of office.

nasking

15/06/2013 "That's what American democracy has come down to at these town hall meetings: old people and gun nuts, which is a terrible combination. I heard somebody yell 'AK-47!' and a lady yelled, 'Bingo!'" --Bill Maher "Oh, you need a magazine that holds 30 rounds? Is that in case the deer starts shooting back?" -The Everlasting GOP Stoppers on Facebook "Oh, keeping God in schools would have prevented the recent shooting? Please tell me how many cases of child molestation he's prevented in churches." "If women took up arms to defend their reproductive rights, the GOP would ban assault rifles yesterday." -Steve Marmel "I suggest putting a teacher in every gun store." -Jef Johnson http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/currentevents/a/Gun-Jokes.htm

Catching up

15/06/2013Thanks all for your support. Wonder if the PM feels the same, being stalked, every time she puts her head up. Does not stop her, she just marches into their den.

nasking

15/06/2013 Cu, I reckon Howard was gutsy to stand up to the gun nuts... Gillard is gutsy to stand up to THE NUTS OF ALL KINDS...every day. N'

Jason

15/06/2013Catching up Just keep showing the middle finger to these fools!

Catching up

15/06/2013Sorry, another announcement of spreading discontent. Now it is, an insignificant back bencher “says”… Something he has been saying for a long time, suddenly means the PM is at risk, The story has been the same, since tghe early hours of this morning. We have seen the PM and many ministers, out in the community, making important announcements. Not one word do we hear of t

Janet (jan@j4gypsy)

15/06/2013Nasking: thank you for the bite from the PM's interview with Ben Elton -- been looking for it everywhere! :) Catch-up - you're a gem. Never stop being one :-). And for TPSers hungry for the 'feel' if not the 'real' of our lovely Lynnie: some readings from online media + Twitterverse. How lucky are we :-) (Lynnie: hope the new down-sized home is fitting in all the 'stuff :-) x) [b]Media spins the Rudd-Gillard merry-go-round[/b] [i]Kerry-Anne Walsh [/i] Three years of real and imaginary leadership challenges have derailed media coverage of decent issues in favour of flimflam conjecture about Rudd's comeback and Gillard's demise. Rudd and his team have never had any identifiable strategy, only a goal: to bring the PM down and return Rudd to the prime ministerial chair. Their main weapon has been to use the media: whispering, hanky-over-mouthpiece, that Gillard was inadequate in her handling of her cabinet, in her policy-making, in her leadership. They reinforced this message by feeding time limits to compliant journalists about the end of Gillard's terminal leadership. The longevity of Gillard's prime ministership was monitored in the media in a never-ending succession of deadlines: Tick, tick, tick, whispered Team Rudd. Time's Up, Julia. http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4754598.html [b]Keep our coal in the ground[/b] [i]Simon Copland [/i] … as I flew over Gladstone, one thing became obvious. Even though we have implemented a carbon price, Australia is not doing enough to halt climate change. Our leaders, and our fossil fuel companies, are addicted to coal, and in doing so are playing an oversized role in warming our planet.  http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/14/australia-coal-queensland-climate-change [b]Dehumanisation of Australia Project – 58% complete[/b] [i]ashghebranious [/i] Some still are asking themselves how we managed to get to a level in the political debate where Howard Sattler could ask the PM the questions he did. Its simples! You see what you do is you start by making the target of your focus illegitimate. A good way to do that is just declare it and keep repeating it till the media form a echo effect. You talk about faceless men describing the people the cameras show actually do have faces. And despite them having faces, the media call them faceless. https://mail.google.com/mail/?hl=en#inbox/13f450222c692d0e [b]The wives of Rupert Murdoch[/b] [i]Rodney E. Lever[/i] Things have changed for Rupert too. The British papers have suffered significant circulation losses and so have the Australian papers. He is unlikely to be able to buy any more papers in the United States. The split in the company between entertainment and print have given him two roles to play, but his attention is going to be partly on Britain but even more on Australia, now one of the richest and most progressive nations on the planet (despite what Joe “small business” Hockey tries to tell us). Rupert is only interested in BIG business. He wants to stop the NBN rollout and become the sole owner of everything worthwhile in Australia ― including every source of information, entertainment and politics. His chance to do so lies with the outcome of the election on September 14. http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/business/media-2/the-wives-of-rupert-murdoch/ [b]What makes Rupert run[/b] [i]Ross McKibbin[/i] A ‘radical’ rhetoric armed Murdoch for his invasion of the United States. In what McKnight calls a ‘deep political transformation’, America and a neoconservative view of the country became central to Murdoch’s worldview. McKnight suggests this might have begun when Murdoch fell out of love with the Whitlam government partly because of the hostile attitude its ministers took towards American policy in Vietnam. By 1975, Murdoch and his press were critical to the point of hysteria and created the atmosphere that allowed the upper house and the governor-general to remove the government in what was effectively a coup d’état. Whitlam’s was a moderate government that modelled itself on the social democratic parties of Western Europe. Yet according to Murdoch, Whitlam was attempting to introduce to Australia a ‘European type of socialism’ which had caused ‘ruin and misery’ elsewhere. The remark was so absurd you wonder whether he could really have believed it. Clearly, however, he did. http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n12/ross-mckibbin/what-makes-rupert-run [b]Top 10 sexist moments in politics: Julia Gillard, Hillary Clinton and more[/b] [i]Emine Saner[/i] Last year, Tony Abbott, Gillard's opponent, again referenced her personal life when talking about a government plan to stop a payment to new parents: "I think if the government was more experienced in this area they wouldn't come out with glib lines like that." It was Abbott, of course, who was on the receiving end of Gillard's powerful speech against misogyny last year, in which she ran through the sexist things he had said and done over the years, and which was described as a "defining moment" for feminism in Australia. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jun/14/top-10-sexist-moments-politics?CMP=ema_632 [b]Gender: bain marie style[/b] [i]Catharine Lumby[/i] I’m a feminist but I don’t give a damn about whether other women call themselves feminists. They can call themselves “Eric” for all I care. I just want women to have choice and opportunity – including the opportunity to be Prime Minister without fielding offensive sexist remarks day in and day out. I greatly admire Julia Gillard’s intelligence, cool and toughness. Personally, I’d have caved a week into the gig. But I’d like to see her rise above the spin and speak honestly about her vision. Not as a woman. But as a person who has the goods to run this country with vision. Gillard has the goods. My problem with the Labor party is that it appears to be captive to the factions and to the marketing “geniuses’ that lurch from poll to poll – like Roman senators reading entrails.  http://thehoopla.com.au/gender-bain-marie-style/ [b]Twitterverse[/b] [i]Ros ‏@roshart12h[/i] You've done it again, Mr Onethemoon! @firstdogonmoon http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/06/14/tony-abbott-the-thinking-cats-crumpet/ … #auspol #LNP #Abbott [i]Kerryn Goldsworthy ‏@AdelaideBook[/i] And at the end of the Week from Woman-Hating Hell, let's not forget this hilarious offering from the Chaser "boys". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp1_llDdmfM … [i]P ‏@Red_Hag[/i] Outline exactly WHY the PM does not deserve respect. Toxic week a taste of the election to come http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-14/cassidy-sexism-election/4753134 … [i]Jill Stark ‏@jillastark[/i] "Right now, Australia is seen around the world as a land of sexist, racist, bullying troglodytes." Spot on, @GregBaum http://m.theage.com.au/sport/cricket/sorry-warner-youre-no-warnie-20130614-2o9sn.html … Jane Tribune ‏@JaneTribune How is the protest vote (against both major parties) going to influence the next government? http://www.kingstribune.com/index.php/weekly-email/item/1824-managing-the-protest-vote … [i]Carmel Nunan ‏@CarmelNunan[/i] Enough of the Liberals' language of violence http://www.theage.com.au/national/letters/enough-of-the-liberals-language-of-violence-20130614-2o9lq.html … via @theage [i]Gabrielle Chan ‏@gabriellechan[/i] Hear hear @Drag0nista "(Some) seem to think that disagreement is the basis on which to discredit, demean or destroy. http://bit.ly/16pwdTW ” [i]Matthew da Silva ‏@mattdasilva[/i] Critical distance and subjectivity in journalism http://is.gd/cExWzp  #media [i]John Pratt ‏@Jackthelad1947[/i] Big names revealed in offshore tax sweep. #auspol Rich rarely pay their way. Time to tighten up tax laws. http://www.canberratimes.com.au/national/-2o9ok.html …

Catching up

15/06/2013Maybe I am wrong, that Howard was gutsy. I seem to remember at that time, public anger, overrode the noise coming from the gun lobby. Would have taken guts, to ignore them, and side up with gun owners. By the way, not all gun owners and users, would have been against restrictions on guns.I know, if alive my father and grandfather would have led the charge. Both owned guns, but did not see them as toys. Have not seen Howard out, fighting to save the restrictions, he put in place.

nasking

15/06/2013 [b]EAGER BEAVER BLAIR DOING HIS JOB...AGAIN:[/b] [b]Tony Blair has insisted the West must intervene against the Syrian government to prevent "catastrophic consequences[/b]". The former prime minister urged Britain to help the US arm opposition forces fighting President Bashar al Assad and his regime. Mr Blair expressed fears both sides will begin to use chemical weapons as an "acceptable form of warfare" if no action is taken. http://news.sky.com/story/1103945/syria-take-action-or-risk-disaster-blair ------------ [b]BUILD 'EM UP...THEN KNOCK 'EM DOWN:[/b] Syria and Libya A Freedom of Information request by The Sunday Times in 2012 revealed that Blair's government considered knighting Syria's President Bashar al-Assad. The documents also showed that Blair was willing to appear alongside Assad at a joint press conference even though the Syrians would probably have settled for a farewell handshake for the cameras; British officials sought to manipulate the media to portray Assad in a favourable light; and Blair's aides tried to help Assad's "photogenic" wife boost her profile. The newspaper noted: The Arab leader was granted audiences with the Queen and the Prince of Wales, lunch with Blair at Downing Street, a platform in parliament and many other privileges. . . . The red carpet treatment he and his entourage received is embarrassing given the bloodbath that has since taken place under his rule in Syria. . . . The courtship has parallels with Blair's friendly relations with Muammar Gaddafi. Blair had been on friendly terms with Colonel Gaddafi, the leader of Libya, when sanctions imposed on the country were lifted by United States and United Kingdom. Even after the Libyan civil war in 2011, he said he had no regrets about his close relationship with the late Libyan leader. During Blair's premiership, MI6 rendered Abdel Hakim Belhaj to the Gaddafi regime in 2004, though Blair later claimed he had "no recollection" of the incident. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Blair#Middle_East_policy_and_links_with_Israel [b]BLAIR CERTAINLY EARNS HIS MONEY... FOLLOW THE MONEY TRAIL [/b] N'

Tom of Melbourne

15/06/2013Your hero – Tony Windsor – wants to relax gun control.

nasking

15/06/2013 JOHN GLASER [b]Obama Decision to Arm Syrian Rebels Has Nothing to Do With Alleged Chemical Weapons Use[/b] Posted: 06/14/2013 [b]Indeed, more U.S. direct involvement in the Syrian war is more likely to push Assad to escalate and be more violent, as it gives further credence to regime claims that the rebellion is a malicious foreign plot to overthrow the government.[/b] Additionally, the alleged use of chemical weapons is a ridiculous excuse for more direct intervention. According to White House Deputy National-Security Adviser Ben Rhodes, the Obama administration believes Assad's alleged use of sarin gas has killed 100 to 150 people. In a war that has killed tens of thousands of people by artillery and conventional bombs, deciding to go to war because of the unique deaths of a mere fraction of the total borders on schizophrenic. Another baffling aspect of this announcement is the fact that direct arming of the rebels won't include "decisive" aid. That is, the Obama administration will be sending small arms to the rebels, stopping short of the anti-tank and anti-aircraft weaponry desired by the rebels. Obama knows this will not tip the balance in favor of the rebels. It will merely prolong the stalemate. And here we have a possible answer to the Obama administration's decision. It has nothing to do with any alleged use of chemical weapons. The aim is apparently to keep the Syrian war going, for some key strategic reasons. Back in April, Thanassis Cambanis argued that one reason that the Obama administration hasn't directly intervened militarily in Syria is that the long, drawn-out conflict hurts America's geopolitical competitors: The war is also becoming a sinkhole for America's enemies. Iran and Hezbollah, the region's most persistent irritants to the United States and Israel, have tied up considerable resources and manpower propping up Assad's regime and establishing new militias. Russia remains a key guarantor of the government, costing Russia support throughout the rest of the Arab world. Gulf monarchies, which tend to be troublesome American allies, have invested small fortunes on the rebel side, sending weapons and establishing exile political organizations. The more the Syrian war sucks up the attention and resources of its entire neighborhood, the greater America's relative influence in the Middle East. The ongoing conflict in Syria isn't perceived in Washington as harming U.S. interests, but -- according to Cambanis -- it is seen as draining the resources and influence of Iran, Hezbollah, and Russia. This is valuable to U.S. strategists at a time when the relative balance of U.S. power is seen as waning. Not only is the Syrian war draining the resources and hampering the reputations of America's geopolitical rivals, but it provides the U.S. with an opportunity to have a proxy war with Iran, ever the spoiler of U.S. imperial designs in the Middle East. According to Foreign Policy's Dan Drezner, "this is simply the next iteration of the unspoken, brutally realpolitik policy towards Syria that's been going on for the past two years. To recap, the goal of that policy is to ensnare Iran and Hezbollah into a protracted, resource-draining civil war, with as minimal costs as possible." [b]The Syrian people have been suffering immensely from this policy for two years. And the Obama administration risks endangering the American people in this scheme as well: It won't be long before arming the Syrian rebels, most of whom have ties to al-Qaeda groups, blows back in our proverbial face.[/b] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-glaser/obama-syrian-rebels_b_3444030.html [b]"I do not know how the third world war will be fought, but I can tell you what they will use in the fourth... rocks.[/b]" Albert Einstein quotes TICK TOCK... N'

Jason

15/06/2013Your hero – Tony Windsor – wants to relax gun control. Tom of Melbourne Does he? and as an elected MP should he not have the right to argue his case if that's what his electorate want him to?

Catching up

15/06/2013growing discontent story once again repeated.

Jason

15/06/2013Catspan http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/A_single_white_feather_closeup.jpg&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_single_white_feather_closeup.jpg&h=1365&w=1024&sz=175&tbnid=FVDfIlfqacT1XM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=68&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwhite%2Bfeather%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=white+feather&usg=__09vCsFy22eS8O0Fcpkfk2ikMxt4=&docid=05nUTiF3MuUVRM&sa=X&ei=3Ue8UanqLcmsiAe_t4GgAg&ved=0CDMQ9QEwAQ&dur=1774

nasking

15/06/2013 [b]George Harrison & Bob Dylan - A Hard Rain's Gonna Fall - Concert for Bangladesh 1971[/b] http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ffv2wdm2rjg SO MANY WAYS N'

Capstan

15/06/2013So, Jason ............... what's with all the gibberish, me old chubster? You trying to tell me something? I give up - throw me a bone!

Jason

15/06/2013Capstan I thought the white feather spoke for its self! But a wife beating misogynist such as yourself would know that! You might fool some but not me.

nasking

15/06/2013 [b]Iain Banks: the final interview Iain Banks died last Sunday, just before the publication of his final novel The Quarry. Last month he talked to Stuart Kelly about writing, politics and all the things still left to do[/b] . . . Stuart Kelly The Guardian, Saturday 15 June 2013 His political zeal burns equally ardently. He confesses that "for half a second", as he and Adele travelled across the Alps from Venice to Paris on honeymoon, he was "elated" when he heard that Thatcher had died. "Then I realised I was celebrating the death of a human being, no matter how vile she was. And there was nothing symbolic about her death, because her baleful influence on British politics remains undiminished. [b]Squeeze practically any Tory, any Blairite and any Lib Dem of the Orange Book persuasion, and it's the same poisonous Thatcherite pus that comes oozing out of all of them." He didn't watch the funeral on TV – "It was just like a royal wedding." [/b] We reminisce about other significant turning points. Blair entering Downing Street: "Watching the helicopter shots of his car journeying from Islington to Buck House was like witnessing the liberation of a city … yet almost immediately he was having tea with Thatcher. My injured self-respect can at least fall back on the fact that I never voted for New Labour – Labour yes, and nothing but Labour for as long as it existed and I could vote, but not for a party that embraced privatisation and refused to scrap nuclear weapons; not for a party slightly to the right of Ted Heath's government." As for the war on terror, there is palpable fury when he discusses "the great lie that our boys are fighting, killing and dying in Afghanistan to keep us safe. It's 180 degrees off the truth. They're dying worse than needlessly; they're dying to save political face, and for every grieving or just aggrieved Afghan family we create the conditions for further atrocities to be visited on us."... "I think there will be a political rebalancing and we'll stop swinging round to the right. In the unlikely event that I'm around for the referendum on Scottish independence I'm definitely voting 'yes'. I was saying last year that if we don't get it in 2014 we'll get it in my lifetime and now it turns out my lifetime might not extend as far as the first referendum and that just seems wrong – a Scotland still shackled to a rightwing England, especially with the rise of the bizarrely named Ukip (I think they'll find their acronym should be EIP actually) – I won't be sorry to be missing that. [b]I won't miss waiting for the next financial disaster because we haven't dealt with the underlying causes of the last one. Nor will I be disappointed not to experience the results of the proto-fascism that's rearing its grisly head right now.[/b] It's the utter idiocy, the sheer wrong-headedness of the response that beggars belief. I mean, your society's broken, so who should we blame? [b]Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No let's blame the people with no power and no money and these immigrants who don't even have the vote, yeah it must be their fucking fault. So I might escape having to witness even greater catastrophe."...[/b] I listened to the recording of our conversation after the inevitable became actual, and what struck me was that most of the time we were just laughing. [b]That laughter is gone. But its echoes are headed to the edge of the known universe.[/b] http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2013/jun/15/iain-banks-the-final-interview I ENJOYED HIS NOVELS. WILL BE MISSED. NEXT TIME N'

nasking

15/06/2013 “Experience as well as common sense indicated that the most reliable method of avoiding self-extinction was not to equip oneself with the means to accomplish it in the first place.” ― Iain Banks, Consider Phlebas

jane

15/06/2013Crapstain, what utter bullshit you do go on with. I'm sure there are plenty of posters here who have been married far longer than you, with children, grandchildren & great grandchildren. And there are no doubt people who aren't married, but have enjoyed a loving relationship with a significant other with children, grandchildren etc. You're not unique because you've got a host of children & their progeny. So have billions of people. Look at the hatch, match & dispatch columns in every newspaper every day of the week; people are getting married, having rug rats & popping their clogs. Some put the cart before the horse, but why is that important, unless you're a narrow minded ignorant bigot? Oh that's right, you are and no doubt what you've taught your brood to be. Frankly I congratulate people who choose not to have children. This planet needs less humans not more, shitting in their own nests & fouling the planet for future generations. And please don't presume to know whether anyone who comments here is married, divorced, blissfully unwed, or has children. We have no idea what has happened in their lives, unless they give us the privilege of sharing some of their experiences, so STFU you ignorant jerk! 42 long, I'm with you. Wild duck tastes like rancid fat. I have no idea why people are so mad on it. IMO, it's like the recipe for galah we used to hear years ago. Take one galah, place it in a pot with a rock, cover with water & cook until the rock is tender. Eat the rock & throw the galah away. [quote]The remark was so absurd you wonder whether he could really have believed it. Clearly, however, he did.[/quote] I think it's unlikely. IMO Murdoch's only strong belief is that everyone should bend to his will. NAS' TONY BLAIR GETS WORSE EVERY TIME YOU READ FRESH NEWS ABOUT HIM. IN BED WITH DICTATORS, LYING ABOUT WMDS. BLOODY HELL!

Ad astra

15/06/2013Folks I’ve been busy today writing the next piece [i]The culture of disrespect[/i], which I will post tomorrow evening, and have been away from my computer this evening. I have just now caught up with the goings on here. My apologies to you Catching up for the insults directed at you. I agree with Bacchus and Miglo about Capstan’s posts, so I have cleaned up the site. To avoid any more such posts overnight, I have closed comments and will reopen in the morning. Good night.

Ad astra

16/06/2013[b]Good morning Folks Now that I’ve turned on comments again this morning, can we please show more restraint than yesterday when several unpleasant comments were posted, to which responses were made, which evoked still more unpleasant comments. Please ignore those who come here not to contribute meaningfully to the discourse, but to irritate in an infantile way, or annoy in a nasty and at times personal way. They contaminate the site and inhibit sensible discussion. That is their intention. I will delete unsuitable comments when I see them, but I can’t sit here all day doing so as I have other things to do, and today I will be on the road to Melbourne for several hours. I hope that today we can have sensible discourse about the very dynamic political scene that is unfolding almost by the hour. This evening I will post [i]The culture of disrespect[/i], an important subject that deserves thoughtful consideration.[/b]

nasking

16/06/2013 [quote]Gillard's speech was "a rather desperate attempt to exploit the gender tensions that exist in our society," proclaimed academic Eva Cox. She described it as "rather limp, probably professionally devised". weighed in, attacking Gillard for raising the issue of abortion: "Strategically, this is not something that should be shouted loudly from the rooftops and certainly not by our first female PM," she wrote in Fairfax Media on Wednesday. [b]Then there was the "Sorry Julia. But women aren't buying your gender wars" headline on the usually Gillard-friendly mamamia website. [/b][/quote] TALK TURKEY, THE TALONS OF MURDOCH EVERYWHERE...SEDUCING...SQUEEZING...HURTING...CAJOLING...CHANGING BEHAVIOUR: [b]Mamamia! News Ltd goes after mums — and Mia[/b] ANDREW CROOK | OCT 06, 2011 In the strange world of niche women’s websites one major Australian player, News Limited, has been conspicuously silent. While Fairfax has cleaned up with the popular Essential Baby, News was left to ponder its future as an online player amid the massive 65% of total Australian consumption controlled by women. But all that changed in late June when News ponied up a sweet $45 million for ex-Booz Allen Hamilton executive Katie May’s KidSpot group. Included in the group’s goldmines are Birth.com.au, The Spot and a cache of valuable marketing documents digging in to the psyche of the modern female consumer. Crucially, the purchase included advertising middle-woman outfit SheSpot, which claims to reach 2.5 million people each month placing ads for Best Recipes, Easy Weddings and Weight Watchers. But it was another SheSpot client that really set tongues wagging — Mamamia, the increasingly popular part-advertorial play run by former Cosmo editor Mia Freedman and husband Jason Lavigne. As a result of the KidSpot purchase, [b]News had begun to control a large percentage of Freedman’s major revenue stream, said to be around $1 million a year.[/b] [b]Rumours that News will soon buy the entire Mamamia business — that captures 300,000 unique browsers a month — are circulating feverishly, with informed estimates putting the possible purchase price at around $2-5 million.[/b] [b]A story in this morning’s Fairfax-owned Business Review Weekly has poured petrol on the bonfire with Lavigne admitting “bigger publishers” were “circling” the site. Freedman is also a regular on Sky News (one-third owned by the News-controlled BSkyB) and recently popped up on Fridays with new episodes of her own Mamamia-branded program[/b]. [b]Neither Freedman nor News Limited spin doctor Greg Baxter responded to Crikey’s requests for comment on this story... [/b] Veteran media analyst Steve Allen from Fusion Strategy told Crikey the FMCG market was becoming increasingly crucial for News’ operation. Companies like Procter & Gamble and Kimberly-Clark were champing at the bit to target stay-at-home mums. “The ads are high-volume purchases spruiking items that are all available at the supermarket — the target market are all very strong supermarket shoppers,” he said. “And that’s before you get to products targeted at trying to make people attractive and beautiful.” [b] Allen reckons News will be very active in the digital space in the next five years and is strengthening its position to reign supreme over the mums market. Mamamia and its savvy former girls-mag editor is expected to figure prominently in those plans.[/b] http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/10/06/mamamia-news-ltd-goes-after-mums-and-mia/ ----- [b]NO WONDER MIA FREEDMAN LOOKED CONFLICTED...MORE THAN A WEE BIT FULL OF IT...WHEN SITTING WITH THAT OTHER BRAIN-WASHED, SPOILT IN MASTER MURDOCH'S WORLD, TOFF IN FEMINIST GUISE JANET ALBRECHTSON...ON THE LEIGH SALES PUNCH AND CHRIS SHOW...[/b] LEIGH SALES: Let's switch over to have a look at the Prime Minister's speech yesterday that preceded all of this. Janet, I presume that you didn't buy the Prime Minister's argument about women's voices being banished under an Abbott government? JANET ALBRECHTSEN: Well, you know, it's interesting, isn't it, Leigh? Julia Gillard has done something that she hasn't done before. She's united people like Eva Cox and me, people like Wendy Harmer and me, people like Jane Caro and me and ... [b]MIA FREEDMAN: You and me! (Laughs)[/b] JANET ALBRECHTSEN: ... possibly, possibly Mia and me, which is really interesting. It tells you how low Julia has gone. I mean, it's not just divisive, it's not just disgraceful because of the hypocrisy. Here is a Prime Minister who is not endorsing a female candidate in the safest seat which is undergoing a preselection battle. Who is she supporting? Not the female candidate, but the male candidate, the male who got rid of Kevin Rudd and put Julia Gillard in. She's the beneficiary of Labor's quota policy; she's not supporting the woman. Is that not banishing women's voices from Canberra? I would have thought. So, the hypocrisy of it. LEIGH SALES: Mia, would you go as far as Janet and describe her speech as disgraceful hypocrisy? MIA FREEDMAN: I wouldn't describe it as disgraceful hypocrisy. I'd describe it as disappointing and inconsistent. I share Janet's view that what's going on in Batman and what's happened in Gellibrand in terms of ignoring the Labor rules about, you know, um, ... ...MIA FREEDMAN: No, I'm completely in agreement with Janet. I think that it does take the heat off Mal Brough and certainly Joe Hockey. http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2013/s3780510.htm ---- [b]AWFUL THING AIN'T IT WHEN THE MURDOCH GETS HIS SHARP CLAWS INTO PEOPLE? MAKES 'EM ACT LIKE SCHEMERS...OCCASIONAL BSers...DUPING THEIR READERS...WITH LITTLE INTEGRITY...PERFORMING...IN AWKWARD FASHION... FACE MELTS (LIKE BARRIE)...UNLESS YER LIKE JANET...COMFORTABLE IN THE MURDOCH GARBAGE DUMP THROWING MUD AND TRASH AT THE FIRST FEMALE PM...ALBRECHTSON TRAITOR TO THE CAUSE...LIVING THE GOOD RUPERT PROVIDED LIFE...IN STINKVILLE. YUCK![/b] N'

nasking

16/06/2013 LAURIE ANDERSON - O SUPERMAN O Superman. O judge. O Mom and Dad. Mom and Dad. O Superman. O judge. O Mom and Dad. Mom and Dad. Hi. I'm not home right now. But if you want to leave a message, just start talking at the sound of the tone. Hello? This is your Mother. Are you there? Are you coming home? Hello? Is anybody home? Well, you don't know me, but I know you. And I've got a message to give to you. Here come the planes. So you better get ready. Ready to go. You can come as you are, but pay as you go. Pay as you go. And I said: OK. Who is this really? And the voice said: This is the hand, the hand that takes. This is the hand, the hand that takes. This is the hand, the hand that takes. Here come the planes. They're American planes. Made in America. Smoking or non-smoking? And the voice said: Neither snow nor rain nor gloom of night shall stay these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds. 'Cause when love is gone, there's always justice. And when justive is gone, there's always force. And when force is gone, there's always Mom. Hi Mom! So hold me, Mom, in your long arms. So hold me, Mom, in your long arms. In your automatic arms. Your electronic arms. In your arms. So hold me, Mom, in your long arms. Your petrochemical arms. Your military arms. In your electronic arms.

nasking

16/06/2013 Janet, Jason, 42 long, Pikinaru, Ken...good work too. HOPE...JUST AS THE JETS ARE ROLLED OUT...THE PLANES...AND GUNS...GUNS AND GUNS AND GUNS... [b]Iran was on the brink of an extraordinary political transformation on Saturday night after the moderate cleric Hassan Rouhani sensationally secured enough votes to succeed Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.[/b] Rouhani's apparent victory delighted many reformers in Iran who have been desperate for a comeback to the forefront of Iranian politics after eight acrimonious years under Ahmadinejad. It will also lift the spirit of a nation suffering from its worst financial crisis for at least two decades due to the unprecedented sanctions imposed by western powers in the dispute over Tehran's nuclear programme. [b]Rouhani, a moderate figure favouring political openness and re-establishing relations with the west, is likely to sooth international tensions. He has been described by western officials as an "experienced diplomat and politician" and "fair to deal with".[/b] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/15/iran-presidential-election-hassan-rouhani-wins BRAND NEW DAY? N'

nasking

16/06/2013 COME TOGETHER... [b]The Russian Foreign Ministry has renewed Moscow’s call for the participation of Iran in an international conference on Syria that is expected to be held in Geneva. “This is a matter of principle because the composition of the conference should be balanced,” Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Mikhail Bogdanov told the ITAR-TASS news agency on Wednesday. Bogdanov acknowledged Washington’s opposition to inviting Iran to the peace conference, but insisted that Iran’s absence in the Geneva-1 talks last summer "was a mistake and it should not be repeated." [/b] “Iranians and other influential external players should be invited to the conference,” the diplomat stressed. “The point is that two Syrian sides should negotiate and come to agreement and they should know that they are not abandoned, that there are sympathizing and supporting forces on both sides,” he added. The remarks followed a trilateral meeting between UN envoy to Syria Lakhdar Brahimi, Russian Deputy Foreign Ministers Gennady Gatilov and Bogdanov, and US Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs Wendy Sherman in Geneva. UN Undersecretary General for Political Affairs Jeffrey Feltman was another UN representative at the meeting held to pave the way for the widely anticipated international peace conference on Syria. http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/06/05/307386/iran-must-attend-syria-talks-russia/ INDEED. AMERICA MUST DO...THE REAL THING RUSSIA, CHINA, IRAN, SAUDI, FRANCE, UK...SYRIANS TOO. FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHILDREN. N'

nasking

16/06/2013 Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path. Buddha

nasking

16/06/2013 “I am no bird; and no net ensnares me: I am a free human being with an independent will.” ― Charlotte Brontë, Jane Eyre “It is in vain to say human beings ought to be satisfied with tranquillity: they must have action; and they will make it if they cannot find it. Millions are condemned to a stiller doom than mine, and millions are in silent revolt against their lot. Nobody knows how many rebellions besides political rebellions ferment in the masses of life which people earth. Women are supposed to be very calm generally: but women feel just as men feel; they need exercise for their faculties, and a field for their efforts, as much as their brothers do; they suffer from too rigid a restraint, to absolute a stagnation, precisely as men would suffer; and it is narrow-minded in their more privileged fellow-creatures to say that they ought to confine themselves to making puddings and knitting stockings, to playing on the piano and embroidering bags. It is thoughtless to condemn them, or laugh at them, if they seek to do more or learn more than custom has pronounced necessary for their sex.” ― Charlotte Brontë, Jane Eyre

Austin 3:16

16/06/2013Hey Pikiranku [quote]The Essential survey released yesterday put approval of Julia Gillard among Labor voters at 79%. Presumably, if the aversion to Julia in Queensland is as intense as Nasking believes it to be, the inclusion of results from there have driven this figure down. Which means there must be extremely solid support for her in the rest of the country[/quote] The problem is that the Essential survey also indicates that only 36% of voters are Labor voters. So Julia is doing well with 79% of 36% of the voters. I don't know how on earth that equals "solid support". And the Essential survey doesn't seem to be giving any state based figures only national. In comparison a Galaxy poll of Federal voting intention in May put the Labor primary vote in Queensland at 28%. It's entirely possible that in Qld of that 28% who intend to vote Labor 79% approve of Gillard. But you're right Gillard should be left alone - and some time from Sept 15 onwards she probably will be. Pity the damage will have been done by then.

42 long

16/06/2013IF Fairfax gets rid of a shockjock in WA , what does the ABC do with Ackermans gaffe or deliberate act today. FAR FAR worse. Casssidy was concerned but it can't stop at that. Let's stop this ROT. and make all answerable for their actions. Piers has been around for long enough to know exactly what he is doing.

Algernon

16/06/2013Ackerman can only be on Insiders for comedy value not for any intelligent contribution. His comments today were as bad as Sattler's and the others tried to slap him down with Cassidy casting him adrift. Lenore Taylor appeared upset by the his remarks. None the less it made for awkward television. Ackerman did offer some sort of apology. I can't see the benefit of someone like Ackerman on a program like Insiders. He'd clearly more suited to the Bolt program where buffoons can discuss their conspiracy theories as nauseum.

nasking

16/06/2013 Well, it's amazing how fatigue can distort one's thoughts. I was pretty convinced Rudd was the way to go a few days ago...but not so sure now after a few more relaxing days. My wife reckons a change of leader would make the ALP look desperate...cowardly... they made such a HUGE ISSUE about why they wanted RID OF RUDD...it would look STUPID to bring him back...and what kind of message does that send to young women??? I noticed Cassidy FAILED to present an EQUAL OPPORTUNITY [i]Insiders[/i]...yet again...dominated by BLOKES and LIMITED NEWS types. The GUARDIAN's Lenore Taylor held up her own...but the BLOKEY thing dominated...PIERS AKERMAN BEING OBNOXIOUS...SNARLING...SH*T STIRRING...circulating rumours...let of the leash by Cassidy...once again...despicably, Watching Akerman...and then TALKING BLOKEY PICTURES I got to thinking that MISOGYNY IS PERPETUATED by blokes who sometimes don't even realise they are doing it. AUSSIE BLOKES taunting and insulting women in PATRIARCHAL LAND blissfully unaware of how freaking ignorant, stupid and obnoxious they look and sound. Perhaps too often too FULL...OF FULL STRENGTH BEER...TOO WASTED...CREATING THEIR OWN OCKER WASTELAND. BLOTTOED...EVEN WHEN OFF THE PISS FOR A FEW HOURS. N'

nasking

16/06/2013 “Drinking is such a necessity to human life that people cannot fathom an individual who, like a child confined to a church pew, gets little enjoyment out of it and would rather do other things.” ― Criss Jami

nasking

16/06/2013 MEMORIES: Piers Akerman Tuesday, [b]December 18, 2012[/b] (12:08am) [b]Thank you Henry Ergas for helping me understand what sort of women still support Julia Gillard’s prime ministership. [/b] [b]It’s the dumb ones. [/b] In an insightful essay in The Australian “The PM cannot count on women’s votes because she has done nothing for them,” Ergas yesterday outlined how Gillard has failed her female fans. “Since Labor came to power”, he wrote, “the female unemployment rate has risen from 4.4 to 5.2 per cent. And [b]surveys show women feel more at risk of losing their job now than at any point in the Howard years.”[/b] http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/piersakerman/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/dumb_women_support_gillard/ Hmmm... PATTERN OF BEHAVIOUR I WONDER IF ABBOTT WILL HELP KEEP WOMEN IN JOBS...WELL PAID JOBS? GOVERNOR-GENERAL FOR ONE? FINANCE MINISTER? HEALTH MINISTER? MINISTER FOR FAMILIES AND INDIGENOUS AFFAIRS? MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT, PARTICIPATION AND EARLY CHILDHOOD & CHILDCARE? MINISTER FOR SPORT, MULTICULTURAL AFFAIRS? SPEAKER? HODS IN EDUCATION?...SCIENCE & MATHS TEACHERS...DEPUTY PRINCIPALS, PRINCIPALS??? THE LIST GOES ON... N'

Michael

16/06/2013This morning on Insiders Piers Ackerman casually lifted the lid on just how long the poison jar has been open, and how deep its contents are, drawn on by those in politics and the media who intend nothing but harm to Julia Gillard, her family, and her government. His unctuous and manifestly self-serving 'apology' to the Prime Minister at the conclusion of the program was equally dripping in the same foul approach. He might also have apologised for earlier accusing the PM and her office of putting out the restaurant menu that now 'no-one' seems to have ever seen, a joke item apparently thought-up, written down, printed on quality stock, all for a very targeted 'audience' sitting down to a meal dedicated to unseating Gillard Labor... and then left on a shelf in the kitchen after all that effort. Boys own level of humor, with boys own level of 'explanation' once the jolly jape went public. 'Dog ate the menu' stuff, and certainly more evidence of the unceasing 'homework' that goes into Conservatives disparaging the woman who is the leader of this nation. Did Ackermann look puffedly stupid, hollowly accusatory? Yes. Would those out there who are dedicated to pursuing Julia Gillard no matter what cesspool they need to wade through have seen him in this way? Don't you believe it! Nudge nudge, wink wank, they'd be cheering on 'good old Piers' for getting another one in on the PM. All in the atmosphere created by an Opposition that has no aim except to reclaim government and abjure the responsibility of governing for tomorrow, re-embracing yesterday's falsified "Golden Age". Led by a man as cocky as a weathervane, convinced that breeze at his rear is destiny, when it is no more than the foul breath of poisoned minds. Abbott PM? He's not up to it.

Mal Kukura

16/06/2013Regarding the redbox menugate coverup of the identities of the really existing LNP/NEWS Limited people allegedly responsible for releasing the porno menu last Tuesday/Wednesday immediately after the PM's Women for Gillard video clip was posted on the PM's website: there was new information (at least for me) discussed by the Insiders today as mentioned above by 42 Long, Algernon and N’asking. Akerman repeated the obviously fabricated lie that David Carter released the redbox menu on Tuesday and that he emailed it to Kevin Rudd, Peter the worm van Onselen and the Prime Minister many weeks ago. Lenore Taylor insisted that Akerman clearly state if he had evidence of who released it and when and he declined falling back on “protecting sources” while repeating the lie that the redbox menu must have been release by the PM or some ALP campaign staff. Why did it suddenly appear three months or more after Joe Richardson said he created it - and on the very day and within hours of the PM's blue tie misogyny abortion speech to Women for Gillard video clip was posted on the PM's web pages? Did it appear on Tuesday or Wednesday? What are the facts of when it appeared and how – and who released and who ordered it released? How come the facts are being systematically neglected and covered up. The insiders seemed to agree that the PM should play by their rules regarding leaving abortion out of the political discourse when they – the media mercenaries - are busy assisting the notoriously Machiavellian anti-abortion misogynist Abbott harvest votes from dupes and fools who are prey to what the media pundits say – channelling Goebbels as they do every day now so many of them It was also suggested by one of the insiders that something like the redbox menu had appeared a few years ago in the form of a mock KFC poster – it’s not even new he said - so that makes it alright, right? Then Akerman added that it originated in America before that and that Hilary Clinton was the original target - last time I looked she didn’t have red hair and never has. Who authorized distribution of the redbox menu on Tuesday? Was it Abbott, Hockey, Brough or their Rove rules maverick Goebbelian propagandists in the shadows? Are they afraid that the PM’s world-wide acclaim for standing up to misogynists like Abbott will be repeated over the next ninety days and cost them votes from Australian women who’ve had enough of aggressive violent control freaks like Abbott trying to control their bodies and what they do in in private in bedrooms. Any fool can see this man Abbott is unfit to lead the LNP and unfit to represent the women and gay people of Warringah. Political blogs have a purpose and that purpose is to give a voice to ordinary people who have no voice in the electronic magnification media controlled by the 0.001% wealthiest who covet the wealth of the Australian middle class and are already salivating about how Abbott will help them help themselves to the assets of the middle class. The depravity of Abbott and his barbarian gang must be exposed and here is a good place to do it. That is what political blogs are good for.

nasking

16/06/2013 If [i]Meet the Press [/i]is going to discuss the attacks on Gillard and her comments on abortion then shouldn't they be giving the PM or one of her defenders an opportunity to put their views across...as well as opposing views? By solely using Julie Bishop they look like THE PATRIARCHY...using soldiers of THE PATRIARCHY to attack the FEMALE LEADER WHO IS CHALLENGING THE DOMINANT PARADIGM. On MEET THE PRESS THE PM HAD NO VOICE. So much for BALANCE. But what more would we expect from MURDOCH/RINEHART TOWN? Interestingly, reminded me of SEGREGATIONISTS USING BOUGHT AND CAJOLED BLACK AMERICAN VOICES TO OPPOSE ANTI-SEGREGATIONISTS... or USING BLACK SOUTH AFRICAN POLICE TO BEAT AND SILENCE AND OPPRESS OTHER BLACK SOUTH AFRICANS DURING THE APARTHEID ERA. Julie Bishop, Eva Cox, Mia Freedman, Janet Albrechtson, Miranda Devine and others look like PUPPETS, ENABLERS OF [b]THE PATRIARCHY[/b]... [b]THE PATRIARCHAL MACHINE[/b] N'

nasking

16/06/2013 42 long, Algernon, Michael, Mal Kukura, WELL SAID. n'

Bacchus

16/06/2013Mal Kukura, The chef's Twitter account is now protected so that only his verified followers can see what he has written. The facts, as I remember them: * The executive chef at R&R posted the menu on Facebook on the night of the function. * David Carter tweeted a link to this page to The Prime Minister's Office and to Peter van Onselen. * Both ignored or didn't read the tweet. PVO has confirmed this on twitter - https://twitter.com/vanOnselenP/status/344647745056940032 * On 11th June, Joe Hockey tweeted, “[i]…She has never deserved respect and will never receive it.[/i]” referring to the PM. * At this stage, David Carter released the menu (on Twitter I think) which started the "#Menugate" circus off, much to his regret. More info here: http://tinyurl.com/nxdh7jh http://ashghebranious.wordpress.com/2013/06/14/menu-the-logic/ http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/video/watch/17581303/penny-wong-slams-bad-taste-menu/

nasking

16/06/2013 Yet another MURDOCH PUPPET LAURA JAYES ON SLY NEWS referred to the gender, misogyny, sexism issues as FRINGE issues. Obviously has no self-respect...PRIORITIES UPSIDE-DOWN. Amazing what money can do eh? Wonder how Laura will feel when the boss moves her to a not so dominant FRONTLINE job when her looks FADE?...or if she has too many DISSENTING OPINIONS? Smug smile now...but working for patriarchal Rupert takes its toll. N'

Tom of Melbourne

16/06/2013It’s great to see everyone jump on Gillard’s talking points so willingly. But Gillard isn’t under close scrutiny on the basis of her gender, it is because she- • Was installed by union hacks • Has a history of dishonesty • Knifed a popular PM who was ahead 52/48 2pp • Has lost her most talented Ministers because they don’t have confidence in her But here, no one likes to delve into that, it is just so much more convenient to “blame the media”

Jason

16/06/2013But here, no one likes to delve into that, it is just so much more convenient to “blame the media” ToM as I've said to you before you can either start your own blog and write whatever you want or you could ask Ad if you could write a post about the ills of the ALP! So far you have offered to do what? It's time to put up or shut up!

nasking

16/06/2013 Jason, thnx for the support yesterday. You'd have made a good Spitfire pilot back in them days they had to fight off the waves of bombers and such sent by the arrogantt extreme nationalists and vicious bigots... those who preferred their women obedient...and if not spying, dobbing, pushing the propaganda and working the weapons' line...pregnant. I'm taking a break. Just thought I'd head back to fix a few things up. Job done. N'

Ad astra

16/06/2013nasking Enjoy your break. You will always be welcome back here. Your new Gravatar is intriguing. It looks like a mythological creature. Does it have a name?

Ad astra

16/06/2013Folks Thank you all for your comments and your opinion of Piers Akerman's performance on [i]Insiders[/i] this morning, one I am sure many would share. We are now getting on the road for Melbourne. I'll be back this evening to post [i]The culture of disrespect[/i].

TalkTurkey

16/06/2013On the first day the story broke I heard that: - 1. The pissing-in-shoes event took place in a Japanese restaurant where polite people first remove their shoes; 2. The Member concerned was indeed male (nice pun eh, wouldn't want you to miss it) 3. It belonged to a senior Member of the Abborrrtian MHRs. 4. That the name of the person started with T. No info as to whether surname or given name. 5. Extremely serious threats were immediately made to certain persons, whose ID were not disclosed, concerning their wellbeing should they blab. Riddle Me Riddle Me Ree There's only a few it could be 'Cos it starts with *T*! So Piss-In-Boots' name starts with T? Gee who could it be? Let me see ... Nah, it seems too absurd, all There is is Mal Turdball - Oh YES! - There's one more!- [i]COULD IT BE?![/i]

Casablanca

16/06/2013[b]BACKYARD ABORTION A DANGEROUS REMEDY[/b] By Lucy Clark. November 1, 2012 Dangerous Remedy, an ABC-TV telemovie [quote]It’s also a sobering reminder that it is not so long since women’s repressed reproductive rights could lead to their deaths. There are still people who wish for this – for women’s rights to be repealed. Right to Lifers would have you believe that women and men fighting for a women’s right to terminate a pregnancy celebrate abortion. But as US Secretary of State Hilary Clinton once so very neatly put it: “I have met thousands and thousands of pro-choice men and women. I have never met anyone who is pro-abortion.”[/quote] http://thehoopla.com.au/backyard-shame/ [b]MENU-GATE PROVES THE GENDER WAR IS FAR FROM FALSE[/b] Ruby Hamad. 13 June, 2013 [quote]Australia's Sex Discrimination Commissioner Elizabeth Broderick told the Australian Broadcasting Corporation that many women in public office faced a "significant demeaning attitude, sexist questions, invasive questioning". "It's got to stop because we want women in public office, we want women to step up and be part of a decision-making of this country... [but] women and young women are put off by what they see." Ms Gillard on Friday echoed those comments. ''I want young girls and women to be able to feel like they can be included in public life and not have to face questioning like the questioning I faced yesterday,'' she said.[/quote] http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4751066.html [quote]BRUTAL EDGE OF SEXISM REVEALED[/quote] Kirsty Needham and Julie Power. June 16, 2013 [quote]Former NSW premier Kristina Keneally didn't want to get dragged into the sexism debate, but then an envelope arrived in the mail. It was addressed to ''The Approving Socialist Slut at Basketball Australia''. She gave a sigh of exasperation and tweeted a photo of the offending item, sent by someone upset with a planning decision she once made. There are a long list of former NSW Labor premiers who might be unpopular with voters, but do any of the blokes endure sexual slurs the equivalent of being called a ''slut''?[/quote] Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/brutal-edge-of-sexism-revealed-20130615-2ob23.html#ixzz2WMA6JaWw

Austin 3:16

16/06/2013Hey Nasking, [quote] gender, misogyny, sexism issues as FRINGE issues.[/quote] Well homeless people would be starting to freeze to death as winter kicks in - but sure why look at an issue like that when you can tackle the much more important issue of sexist men in blue ties.

Casablanca

16/06/2013 [b]Top 10 sexist moments in politics: Julia Gillard, Hillary Clinton and more[/b] [quote]The 'Julia Gillard Kentucky Fried Quail' menu is the latest sexist attack on the Australian PM. But it's the same for women in politics everywhere. Here are 10 of the worst examples [/quote] http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jun/14/top-10-sexist-moments-politics [b]TREATMENT OF JULIA GILLARD SHOWS EXTENT TO WHICH SEXISM IS TOLERATED IN AUSTRALIA[/b] [quote]Prime minister is attacked relentlessly in contemptible, offensive terms. Gillard has consistently acted with dignity and grace and humour. [/quote] http://www.irishtimes.com/treatment-of-julia-gillard-shows-extent-to-which-sexism-is-tolerated-in-australia-1.1429432#.UbxCu6zWyII.twitter [b]AUSTRALIA: YEAR OF THE WOMEN[/b] By Nick Bryant BBC News, Sydney [quote]Mr Jones, who has built a reputation and a loyal radio following on his bullying outspokenness, quoted Julia Gillard as saying that "societies only reach their full potential if women are politically participating".[/quote] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20794176

nasking

16/06/2013 [quote]Your new Gravatar is intriguing. It looks like a mythological creature. Does it have a name?[/quote] Ad, occasionally the Bear transforms into a Griffin...a [b]rogue Griffin[/b]...the surname of the Irish grandma I never got to meet...apparently she was from County Kerry but was forced to move to London by the church and patriarchs...and give the baby up for adoption...my Mum. The Griffin name also has roots in Wales. Like I said, rogue Griffin...far from home...existing in the new world...little respect for tradition...little time for church...and the old school ties and emblems...and vicious archaic practices. Cheers, N'

Jason

16/06/2013but sure why look at an issue like that when you can tackle the much more important issue of sexist men in blue ties. Austin 3:16 I see the homless feeling the warmth from your comment now!

nasking

16/06/2013 [b]Why Sexism Kills[/b] By M.J. Stephey Wednesday, Nov. 11, 2009 Women and Health: Today's Evidence, Tomorrow's Agenda U.N. World Health Organization According to a report released on Nov. 9 by the World Health Organization, millions of women die each year from conditions that could be avoided — if they were men. Apart from hazards like female infanticide and maternal deaths, women are more likely to contract HIV, suffer from depression and domestic abuse, and lack access to basic health care that could help them survive. Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1937336,00.html#ixzz2WMKrQvf2 FRINGE ISSUE? MUSCULAR CHRISTIANS...AND THOSE WHO ARE PUPPETS OF MUSCULAR CHRISTIANS...AND EVEN SOME WEEDY CHRISTIANS...WHO SUPPORT CHURCHES THAT LOOK DOWN ON, WAG THEIR FINGERS AT CONTRACEPTION...BELIEVE IT THEIR RIGHT TO INTERFERE WITH WOMEN'S REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS...AND PUT THE MAN AS THE CENTRE OF ALL THINGS...MIGHT THINK SEXISM IS A FRINGE ISSUE. LOT MORE TO A SPEECH THAN TIES...BUT CERTAINLY GOT THE ATTENTION...NECESSARY...NOW EVERYONE TALKING ABOUT VARIOUS ISSUES...NOT JUST BLUE TIES. :D N'

Casablanca

16/06/2013[b]THE WEEK THAT WAS[/b] [quote] The Prime Minister's timing was ill-conceived, but look what has happened since her speech: 1. Release of the LNP fundraiser menu; 2. the sexist e-mail scandal in the ADF; 3. The totally inappropriate and disrespectful line of questioning to the PM on Perth radio. It just goes to show that we have a loooooong way to go here. Tut tut Tony, by standing by on the wings, does nothing to address this.*[/quote] We should also add to the above list, the conclusion during the past week of two gruesome sexually motivated murder cases: Likely life sentence for accused rapist/murderer, Adrian Bayley, in the Jill Meagher case. Life imprisonment for murderer/rapist/vivisector Malcolm Naden JOIN THE DOTS * kbdb: 14 Jun 2013 7:47:19am. I regret that I cannot provide the full citation for the comment in italics [u]reCAPTURA: the rapedsz[/u]

Casablanca

16/06/2013TT, I first heard that story from a journalist some 6 months ago. I have never been able to verify it but it does have the ring of verisimilitude about it.

nasking

16/06/2013 AUSTIN 3:16...interesting you should bring up 'the homeless': Some Facts on Homelessness, Housing, and Violence Against Women Domestic and sexual violence are leading causes of homelessness nationally, especially for women. In varying regions around the country, significant percentages of homeless women report that domestic violence was the immediate cause of their homelessness. Up to 100% of homeless women have experienced domestic or sexual violence at some point in their lives. Some survivors and their families become homeless when they flee abuse. Others become homeless upon being denied alternate housing or after being wrongfully or discriminatorily evicted from their current housing as a result of the violence against them. http://www.nlchp.org/content/pubs/Some%20Facts%20on%20Homeless%20and%20DV.pdf NOT GOOD N'

nasking

16/06/2013 I FOUND THAT MANY MATURE AGE WOMEN I KNEW AT UNI REALLY STRUGGLED WITH JUGGLING BOTH UNI AND FAMILY LIFE INITIALLY...BUT A FEW YEARS IN THEY HAD RESOLVED MANY OF THE PROBLEMS, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER...AND GRADUATED AS CONFIDENT WOMEN, INDEPENDENT IN MANY WAYS, ATTITUDES HAVING EVOLVED: The impact of role demands on [b]mature age female students[/b] has been shown to be a complex issue. Scott et al. (1998) surveyed motivation amongst Australian mature age female students with children (n=235). Two groups of participants were identified, one of current students and the other mature age women who had interrupted their study. Both groups completed a questionnaire designed to gain information about women continuing in education. The results showed little difference in motivation between mature age women with children who graduated and those who did not. However when personal circumstances were controlled for, the researchers found personal history and life circumstances underpinned the reasons for return to study and contributed to the decision to leave study. [b]For some women, return to study was a mechanism to escape from low self esteem, disappointment with marriage or life in general and unsupportive families. [/b] Such women reported high levels of motivation for study in an effort to discover new roles for themselves but may have underestimated their ability to cope with study and difficult personal circumstances. [b]Other students reported development of new identity beyond that of ̳wife‘ or ̳mother‘ was their major motivator to return to study. When they achieved this from their study experiences, they found university fulfilling. For others social support from other students and academic staff at university enabled them to cope effectively with the demands of university[/b] (Scott, Burns, & Cooney 1998)... Family Support Perhaps one of the strongest themes common to all participants was problems associated with their roles outside of university. Scott et al. 1998 reported on the complexity of the interaction that women face when juggling the demands of family, work and study and a major theme identified by the current study was the importance of family support. Most of the women planned their study around the needs of the family, in the majority of cases this involved them in part-time study; most of the women were willing to take longer to complete their degree and felt the need to reduce the impact that their studying had on the family. As one participant stated: "[b]my husband encouraged me initially ... but because I have always been at home he has worked full-time he hasn‟t had to think “what are we going to have for dinner”... he was finding it a bit hard to cope so I just slowed it back down again and just went back to the two units. It took longer to finish the degree than I would have liked but obviously I had to consider everyone else[/b].‘ The overwhelming theme was that university study had become so important to them that they were willing to juggle and manipulate their lives in other areas in order to continue their degrees but they could only do so if they felt that they were looking after the needs of their families. Although some women reported that they were financially supported by their partners, and that their families were supportive, the majority of the women felt that they had responsibility for nurturing their families and they felt that it was their role to rearrange their study to ensure that the family was not inconvenienced. A common thread was that although the women placed very high priority on their studies they felt that the level of importance was not understood by their families. One woman said: "I would say that he is not crazy about me studying at all ... And the kids ... I know they wouldn‟t care if I studied either and they are lots of work, you know teenagers, helping them with their homework ... So I can‟t say anybody is encouraging me to do this other than myself.‟ The overriding theme related to family support was that although some partners and families expressed support and some tried to provide practical help, most of the women felt that they had ̳consider everyone else‟... http://ro.ecu.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1002&context=ceducom N'

nasking

16/06/2013 Okay, I'm off. N'

MarkatPort

16/06/2013Come back soon soon nasking. Your comments and links are always appreciated. I thought it was a Griffin. Have a good rest and come back fighting ! I'll be retiring in two weeks so I'll have a lot more time to devote to the cause. Rob O is my local member and will be doing all possible to get him returned. Cheers

Catching up

16/06/2013Bishop said she is the deputy leader, will remain so if elected. Sorry she will not. That job belongs to the National Party. Sadly, she is likely to be FM.

Catching up

16/06/2013No one has answered my question. What is the crime in a PM, either female or male, identifying women's issues. Issues that only involve women. Are such issues, no longer allowed. off the table for all. How does such action become using the gender card, or igniting the gender war. Are the issues that involver women, now seen as illegitimated. If the issues are considered legitimate, what in the hell, has the last week been about.

Ad astra

16/06/2013Folks I’ve just posted [i]The culture of disrespect[/i]. http://www.thepoliticalsword.com/post/2013/06/16/The-culture-of-disrespect.aspx

DMW

16/06/2013Ad, a belated response to your challenge. * To have an Asylum Seeker / Refugee policy that meets our obligations and commitments in the United Nations and other international treaties that we have signed. * To change the national conversation on the issue that reflects the Aussie spirit of a fair go and help for the down trodden. Before I offer some suggestions on how those aims might be achieved a bit of a sidetrack. It appears that the saying [i]Scratch the surface and we are all racists [/i] may have some validity. I will only scratch the surface with an explanation. The exact relationship and differences between racism and xenophobia may be difficult to determine but suffice to say there is a close relationship. There is a school of thought that xenophobia (racism) is a survival instinct. For thousands of years 'fear of the other (tribes) was warranted as 'they' would steal your food and hunting grounds as well as more than likely killing you. Comparatively recently various races began to cooperate through trade and other mechanisms. If xenophobia is a 'survival instinct' from times of old then it is still in all of us to varying degrees at an emotional level. No matter the intellectual argument against xenophobia (racism) there will be times that the emotional side of us will win out which is why it is so easy for the opposition to feed on the inate fears residing in us. It is abhorrent that supposedly intelligent people resort to stoking those fears for base political purposes and in a different world I would order that they be shot at dawn and if that was not possible ensure that they were never able to procreate but fortunately for the many I am not likely to become Supreme Leader (another dream dashed) Of the two objectives I listed above we would need to start with changing the national conversation before we have any hope of implementing the first objective. How do we do that? I envisage an 'Eminent Persons Group' of fromer Prime Ministers and Governors General with maybe some respected people from other countries to guide that conversation. I don't hold out any hope that either of the current leaders of the two major parties would do that so unfortunately it is a pipe dream for now. This means the more important objective may never (in my lifetime?) be possible. Many commenters here have expressed a desire to stop, or curtail, the need for undertaking [i]dangerous sea journeys [/i]. Aside from the fact that the politics of this is about 'look over there' and distracting us from reality of our barbarous policy and actions in this area I don't see any evidence that there is any real action on making this happen. Someone (apologies for forgetting who) offered a link to this article at the ABC: [b]Indonesia rejects the Coalition's asylum seeker policy[/b] http://goo.gl/c6XAw To me the last two pars summed up the 'lie' that we are working on regional co-operation, we are really concerned about 'dangerous sea journeys' and that the 'no advantage' is another 'slogan' in attempt to appease the redneck element. [i]There are currently 10,000 asylum seekers and United Nations recognised refugees in Indonesia, but the country is not a signatory to the Refugee Convention. Australia aimed to resettle 600 of the recognised refugees who are waiting in Indonesia this financial year.[/i] That is around 2% of our humanitarian intake. If we wanted to send a message that it is better to wait in the queue rather than come in through 'the backdoor' we would take many more directly from Indonesia, say about 5,000 and make a big song and dance about. One other point about our 'deterrence' policy. There is considerable evidence that incarceration doesn't lower the crime rate and that in fact in may actually increase it as prisons are 'universities of crime' that train 'better' criminals. Why would anyone in their right mind think that incarceration of asylum seekers think that it would discourage others from trying. Is it possible that mandatory detention is in fact creating future generations of rebels if not terrorists. I pity the poor soul who as prime minister of this country that will have to offer an apology for the inhumane and indecent way we are currently treating asylum seekers and refugees.

nasking

16/06/2013 MarkatPort, thnx for the support. I hope Rob O gets back in. Good onya for lending support. Enjoy the retirement. Let's hope Abbott doesn't get in and orchestrate a recession so Hockey and states can bring in more austerity measures. N'

Ad astra

16/06/2013Catching up The answer to your question is: “There is NO crime in a PM, either female or male, identifying women's issues - issues that only involve women.” Even the feminists who criticised Julia Gillard’s speech last Tuesday are beginning to realize that, in the light of the events that unfolded during the week, she was correct, perhaps even prescient in doing so. nasking Thank you for your explanation of your new Gravatar – Rogue Griffin, come back soon. What a poignant family history you relate.

DMW

16/06/2013bu@@er, refreshed to find a new post has started. Oh well maybe someone will get to read my meagre contribution. I wonder what reCaptcha is telling me [i]nuthoze some[/i] I am living in the nut house? some of the antics of the last week suggest that is true :P

nasking

16/06/2013 [b]No one has answered my question. What is the crime in a PM, either female or male, identifying women's issues. [/b] Cu, I reckon they are VALID ISSUES. Doesn't suit the PATRIARCHAL MURDOCHRACY tho. N'

nasking

16/06/2013 [b]One other point about our 'deterrence' policy. There is considerable evidence that incarceration doesn't lower the crime rate and that in fact in may actually increase it as prisons are 'universities of crime' that train 'better' criminals.[/b] DMW, agree. N'

Catching up

16/06/2013Therefore Ad astra, the media and Opposition are once gain lying when they say, what the PM said was discredited. They are also wrong, when they label the PM as using gender politics. It is true, then, that the needs of half the population are genuine. That men's interest are no longer the only ones that count. That women's issues also are, and are of no lower value.

Mal Kukura

16/06/2013Bacchus Gracias Amigo Very helpful info. The "Hockey Menu" was released via Twitter from David Carter to Dean Hepburn early Tuesday morning June 11 - like 5AM AEST several hours before the PM meets for the launch of Women for Gillard and before the blue tie misogyny abortion speech. On Tuesday Brough is contacted by a journalist and recognizes the menu items when read over the phone. Brough meets camera crew on Wednesday morning and "apologizes" to nobody in particular. Wednesday evening the LNP release a letter by Joe Richardson apologizing to Mal Brough. Thursday Hockey and Brough on camera deny ever having seen the menu before Tuesday. Abbott insists redbox menu never left the kitchen. Sunday June 16 Akerman claims the PM must have been responsible for releasing the bigredbox menu to embarass Mr Abbott - since David Carter said he tried to send it to the PM back in March and Akerman proceeded to link the menu to a KFC poster of a few years ago andbefore that to an earlier use of porno menus in America to insult Hilary Clinton. Desperados. Thanx again Bacchus - time for a glass of red.

Catching up

16/06/2013Neither Bishop, the younger or Morrison,. could say where they are going to send all the criminals to. Another attempt to build up fear, with slogans, without thinking through the consequences of what they say, or how they will do it. Maybe the put them on a raft, out on the open seas, along with the asylum seekers boats. Going to be a crowded place, I must say. By the way still describing that Egyptian as convicted terrorist. Even though Interpol now says is not true. I am sure a argument or even fight among some young boys, in Tasmania, will also be beaten up, to prove we are not safe in our beds. Credlin must have taken on board, that Abbott polls better, if not seen in Public. If so, where is she going to hide him during the election campaign. The consensus seems to be, there will no challenge during the final two weeks as be after the houses sit. Nothing like ensuring the silliness continues. Milne now wants Labor to settle the issue, and feels they would do better with Rudd. How does the PM settle the problem, when the media has manage to keep up another weekend of the discontent is spreading, on the word of one back bencher, who has been saying that as long as most can remember. Just heard the PM is coming back to face a long winter of discontent. Who is saying so, the media. Of course their is talk, I would be surprised if there was not. What I also, and suspect is happening, the talk extends to what each MP can do, to turn things around. Also, I hope, they are telling some of their fellow MP, it is time to shut up, and get in behind th wePM. Yes, those who are complaining also have thge power to make things better. That includes Rudd, He need to extend what he did wrong, from I did not give my people praised, to I did not listen, and fro a while lost the plot. I not only not talk to my team, I did not listen. The only thing that Rudd has to gain, by not coming in behind the PM, is revenge, revenge on the whole party. He should sit down, and take a look at the last three years, acknowledge it was the whole of caucus that deposed him. Yes, at the time, he believed them to be wrong, but now realize that the Gillard government has been a good one, and has delivered his policies and what we have now, is Gillard policies. Yes, Rudd would be treated well by history, if he now came on board. I have taken up the practice of taking some I write about Rudd, sending it by email to his office. Begging him to rethink his actions. I have also sent one or two, to the PM encouraging her to hold her ground. Yes, we do now have the technologist to let them know directly how we feel. Something has to be done, to counteract the polls, that seem to be directing the politics of this country. We, the public need to take back control of the agenda. It is doable.

Catching up

16/06/2013The one fact we all know about that menu, that it did exist, and Labor had nothing to do with creating it. The other is, that there was an effort on the Tuesday night, to portray Another fact is that the so called real pone has not been produced. This would be easy for the owner, to print out a copy. Suspect they are not game, in case of the "no" menu turns up from another source.

Catching up

16/06/2013I believe the copy, put out on cyber space, came from a facebook page for employees. Not exactly keeping it between father and son.

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16/06/2013DMW I'll read your contribution, and that of Doug Evans, over the next few days.

Ad astra

17/06/2013DMW Thank you for your thoughtful comment on at 6.20 PM on June 16, and apologies for my slow response. I strongly agree with your aim: [i]”To change the national conversation on the issue that reflects the Aussie spirit of a fair go and help for the down trodden.”[/i] You make a salient point here: “[i]If xenophobia is a 'survival instinct' from times of old then it is still in all of us to varying degrees at an emotional level. No matter the intellectual argument against xenophobia (racism) there will be times that the emotional side of us will win out which is why it is so easy for the opposition to feed on the innate fears residing in us.”[/i] Sadly, that seems true today. Your conclusion: “[i]I pity the poor soul who as prime minister of this country that will have to offer an apology for the inhumane and indecent way we are currently treating asylum seekers and refugees.”[/i] is the sad reality. Until then, what?

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17/06/2013Doug Evans As at last I have some clear air I’ll attempt to respond to your comments on this piece, which I have re-read. I have also read the Greens’ ‘Submission to the Expert Panel on Asylum Seekers’, and am waiting for a response to an email to Sarah Hanson-Young seeking clarification on what the Greens would advocate once the humanitarian intake has been reached. They recommend the annual intake be increased to 25,000. I realize that I may not be able to change your mind about the approach of [i]TPS[/i] towards Labor policies, namely to not join the strident chorus of the many who criticize their policies, no matter how successful they have been. We saw this with the HIP and BER, both successful in achieving their particular aims, and at the same time avoiding a recession that would have brought rising unemployment and business failures. All we heard from the Coalition and the Murdoch media was lurid stories of ceiling fires and deaths, despite the unchallenged evidence that there were fewer fires with the HIP ceiling insulation than before; and ‘waste and mismanagement’ and ‘Julia Gillard Memorial Halls’ with the BER, despite a 97% satisfaction rate. [i]TPS[/i] not only declined to criticize these programs, but defended them as a counter to this media disingenuousness. Turning now to Labor’s asylum-seeker policy, unquestionably it has not achieved one of its major aims, to stop asylum-seekers undertaking dangerous journeys to Australia on boats. The boats still come. What policy might do better? I have re-read the Greens policy aims, and, as stated earlier, find them laudable, and not dissimilar to those I suggested in the text of the piece I wrote. What the Greens policy still avoids is indicating what approach they would take should asylum-seekers continue to arrive on boats once the quota they recommend, 25,000, is reached. Perhaps Senator Hanson-Young will fill that gap. The other factor that affects political thinking is what the electorate thinks. Those in power want to retain it; those who are not in power want to attain it. Power comes from the voters. For a party in power to stand on high principle may be laudable philosophically and ethically, but if that flies in the face of the wishes of the voters, it loses power and the capacity to do the good things it believes need doing. Parties in power, or seeking it, know this and modify their policies accordingly. As an aside, I hear today that the Greens are advocating leaving all but 20% of coal reserves in the ground to avoid catastrophic global warming, and they are right, but for the Government or the Coalition to advocate the same would result in the alienation millions of voters and scores of industries whose economic future resides in digging up and selling coal. Already Gary Gray and Greg Hunt have been out denying that their parties are in agreement with the Greens. My point is simply that the truth of realpolitik is that the electorate’s wishes, no matter how inappropriate, are part of the decision-making of politicians in power, and those who want it. They must take it into account or be punished at the ballot box. The Greens, knowing that at present they cannot be a majority party and assume power, can take what they regard as the high moral ground with little fear they will be punished for doing so. Back to asylum-seeker policy, while it is relatively easy to put together a set of acceptable aims, it is nigh impossible to construct a policy that on the one hand is humane and accommodating of asylum-seekers, which obviates the need for people to undertake dangerous sea journeys, yet aligns with the views of a divided electorate that includes some who want a more humane policy and others who are angry at each new boat arrival, want the boats stopped, and will vote down any party that seems unable to do that. The Government is implementing as best it can the recommendations of the Expert Panel. I for one was prepared to see how they worked. So far, it has not stopped the boats. What next? I am grateful for your contribution to this debate, and to all who have attempted to address the policy task I set. Some found the task beyond them, some attempted it but found the task daunting, even impossible. So to return to your challenge Doug, this site has not gone into hypercritical mode about asylum-seeker policy because the solution is evading everyone who has a view on the subject, except perhaps those who will never have to implement the policy, and because criticizing without offering a plausible alternative is unworthy of the critic. Nobody commenting here has offered a policy that would be capable of meeting the criteria mentioned above. Regarding the wider issue of the attitude of this site and this author towards policy, it has not, and will not be putting the boots into Labor policies unless a feasible alternative is available and could be offered. Generally, I have found Labor policies suitable and have found them in accord with my own thinking and political philosophy. Asylum-seeker policy is one where no one, no party, has the answer when all the variables are taken into account, when all the factors are considered. I am in no better position. I expect that my answer will not satisfy you, no matter how much time and effort I have put into formulating it.

42 long

17/06/2013How can it AA? If there was a simple answer it would have been done already. I have some (butnot much)sympathy for the LieNP as they really did get it given to them wayback by Rudd and Co.and thet are still smarting. This does NOT excuse making it totally political and appealing to the worst in the society. No one has behaved well in this and the GROANS have not been fair dinkum about it. They have scored moral points off Labor for political advantage, while contributing nothing constructive.. Morrison has looked evil and manipulative but has scored votes. That is the shameful thing about it. Motives are questionable. We don't have an answer that simple and no one comes out of it well. Or ever will. The problem exist all over the world and it is LESS of a problem HERE than most other places

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17/06/201342 long You make several relevant points.
I have two politicians and add 17 clowns and 14 chimpanzees; how many clowns are there?